The Camp Owners Podcast

The Camp Owners Podcast from Go Camp Pro - A space for camp owners to talk about the unique aspects of camp ownership and get inspired by each other. We sit down with camp industry experts, leaders and fellow camp owners to hear how the camp dream transpired for them, learn from each other and discuss some of the biggest issues in the private camp industry.

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The Camp Owners Podcast

The Campfire Effect - with Matt Kaufman - The Camp Owners Podcast #74

March 18, 2026 • Go Camp Pro • Episode 74

0:00 | 56:42

Find all the show notes at https://gocamp.pro/ownerspod/campfire-effect

Using Brain Chemistry to Engineer Belonging

What if belonging wasn’t left to chance, but intentionally designed? In this episode of The Camp Owners Podcast, Matt Kaufman unpacks “The Campfire Effect,” revealing how camps can use brain chemistry to foster deeper connection, resilience and growth. From navigating homesickness to building powerful staff cultures, this conversation offers practical strategies rooted in the simple idea that stress plus support creates lasting impact. Whether you work in camps, schools or teams, you’ll walk away with actionable ways to create environments where people truly feel they belong.

04:20 Matt’s Camp Origin Story
06:55 Why He Wrote Campfire Effect
10:38 Engineering Belonging at Camp
14:53 Neurochemicals and Dopamine Goals
19:53 Stress Plus Support Equals Growth
24:57 Training Staff to Support Campers
28:50 Camp Beyond Camp
32:13 Belonging Culture Non-negotiables
32:53 Welcoming New Staff Right
39:18 Belonging by Design
41:31 Inspect Your Rituals
44:58 Healthy Dopamine

Your Hosts:

Howie Grossinger - Co-owner/Director - Camp Robin Hood, Partner - Camp Walden & Madawaska Camps
Kelly Schuna - Owner - Hidden Pines Ranch

Your Guests:

Matt Kaufman - Director - Camp Ramaquois

Episode Links:

The Campfire Effect: How to Engineer Belonging in a Disconnected World

Matt’s Website

Thanks to our sponsors:

Whereabouts

Your mission is campers. Ours is making their experience coordinated and connected.

Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps Parents, Admin, and Staff in sync in real time — so every camper’s day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out whereaboutsapp.io

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SPEAKER_00 0:38

On this episode of the Camp Owners Podcast, we sit down with a returning guest, Matt Kaufman, and we not only talk with him as a camp pro, but as a new author for a second time. He wrote a book called The Campfire Effect. And his book is all about how we can engineer belonging at camp and really think about the neurochemicals that happen in our camper's brain and how we can create an environment at camp that encourages a healthy dose of those chemicals, that encourages belonging and connection and really creating an environment of growth through stress plus support. So take a listen. We hope you enjoy it. We love having returning guests and talking with camp pros that are super passionate about what we do every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Enjoy. This is the Camp Owners Podcast from GoCamp Pro, exploring best practices and issues that professionals in the private camp industry face every day. You can find our show notes at gocamp.pro slash ownerspod. Your mission is campers. Whereabouts mission is making their experience coordinated and connected. Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps parents, admin, and staff in sync in real time. So every camper's day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out today at whereaboutsapp.io.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Welcome to the Camp Owners Podcast, a space for camp owners to talk about the unique aspects of camp ownership and get inspired by each other. We sit down with camp industry experts, leaders, and fellow camp owners to discuss the big issues in the private camp world. Hello, everyone. My name is Howie Grossinger, and I'm the co-owner and director of Camp Robin Hood, a day camp in the suburbs of Toronto.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Hello, everyone. My name is Kelly Shuna. I am the co-owner and executive director of Hidden Pines Ranch, located in Stillwater, Minnesota. If you are looking to find and subscribe to the Camp Owners Podcast, you can either find us online at gocamp.pro slash ownersowners pod or by searching for us in your favorite podcast app. Friendly, if you're listening to this and think it would be useful to other camp owners or aspiring camp owners in your circle or directors, please feel free to send them a note to listen. Want to give a quick shout out to our amazing sponsor, Camptivities, especially as we are recording this. It is conference season. So we encourage you to please stop by their booth at a conference they are at that's coming up for you. So stop and say hi to Ryan and Brit and thank them for sponsoring us and check out their awesome product. Howie, how are you? I just got to see you. So this is two weeks in a row. What a treat.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

I know. In person, online. It's been a it's a good, good time of the year for us, Kel.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

It's the best. I love conference season. Only be partly being a learning sponge, but also just seeing all your camp people. It makes me give me a little boost, it gets me super excited.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Yeah, super, super boost as far as I'm concerned. And and we're just coming off seeing a lot of camp friends. So it's uh it's and we have one of them on the show today who we recently saw in person. So it's just it's a really great time of year, and and hoping everybody is taking advantage of all the great learning opportunities that are out there in the industry on both sides of the border. So encourage everyone to continue to do that. But uh, excited about our guest today, Kelly.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Me too, and he's a returner, which is super exciting. So we we have Matt Kaufman today. He wrote a book. Now author. Wow, all the things you're gonna be able to add after your name, Matt. Now author is one of them. So Matt Kaufman is a lifer at Camp Ramacoy. He is a day camp. That's just north of New York City. Matt has been there all his life, from camper to staff, and now one of the directors. That's kind of incredible. They're very lucky to have you, Matt. He's a great voice on all things camp technology and innovation, including applying AI. We just maybe have to have you a third time, Matt, to talk about that and how you really use that create efficiency and enhancement with your camp operations. But today, you are really going to talk to us about your new book, The Campfire Effect. So we're super excited to chat with you about that, to learn about it. And we're excited to have you back to the show, Matt. So welcome.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to be back. And I'm excited. I just saw both of you in person as well. So this is great. Seeing you in person and online, fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

I know. I love it. I love it. So you are a returner, but we do ask that you will share with us your camp journey for everyone who's listening to it for the first time, or just wants a reminder about just kind of your camp origin story, how how you got to where you are today with camping.

SPEAKER_05 5:13

Well, yeah, my origin story is a little a little bit strange and a little bit lucky. I started as a camper at Ramacoy when I was four years old. And my my father worked at camp, which is how my sister and I were able to go. He was a staff parent. He started as a counselor and then became one of the people very important in the swim program for many years. So I stayed as a camper for 11 years. I I never really wanted to go to sleep away camp. Um, I never I never asked to go. So I really enjoyed my time at Ramacoy. And after I was a camper, I was fortunate enough to become a counselor. So I was a counselor for the six-year-old boys for seven years, and then a division leader for five years for that same division. I went to college for engineering, so not the normal camp background. And at some point, they asked me to join the Ramacoy team full-time, and I I I couldn't say no. I I think I had a lot of other opportunities that were very different. So I could have gone into the really like the corporate, the corporate world wearing a suit and tie every day, and just something about working at camp was was very challenging to me. And I think it was just something I couldn't say no to. So uh I started working full-time a little over 20 years ago. And so I've I've never left. I went from camper to one of the directors now, and it's really been a special thing for me. I know you know I never say, never say that I'm going that I'm waking up in the morning going to work. I I always say we're going to camp today. So I think that's I can't complain about it.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Yeah, it's a really yeah, I I feel I feel the gratitude in the way you describe that because I feel the same way, Matt. It's like you get to tell people, young people I meet who are coming into camp and looking for positions. I I'm I'm also proud to say that I go to camp every day and I've done it for you know so many years. It's a very special thing to be able to say. And I and I admire the team that you have at Rack Ramakoy and all the great things that you do there. So congratulations for all of this. I know that you're not a first-time author in the industry. I know that you've you've done some other things and in writing a book, but this book today, The Campfire Effect, which is now out and will give some details and how everyone can grab a copy, is a really interesting take on the impact of camp. And I'm wondering if if maybe we we the starting point is like the motivation for getting back into authorship and writing about the topic of camp. And obviously, it comes from a place of all your experiences, but maybe just as we kick off this discussion, Kelly and I are super curious about the motivation to get this done and and we'll jump off from there.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

So the the first book that I wrote was very, very different. And I I almost wrote that book by accident. That book is called The Summer Camp MBA. And it's basically 50 short lessons that you can do with with younger staff. And I say I wrote it by accident because I had this group of college-age staff that I was working with pre-camp. And every day I would send them an email about some little trick or some little lesson. Um, so I sort of had these 50 lessons ready to go, and I said, Hey, I might as well write a book. So those emails turned into a book. But the campfire effect was was really different. And I started writing it in my head during COVID. And as we all know, COVID was a very scary time for the camp industry. I I think there were there were moments when we didn't know if we were ever gonna be able to have camp again. So I started thinking in my head about what might happen if if the worst case scenario came true. And one of the questions that was was rattling around in my head was, why why do I love camp so much? What is it about camp? Why why do I not not even just love it, but I'm addicted to it? And one of the sentences that came into my head was, I can't explain it in 30 seconds, but I could explain it if I had three hours. So that idea kind of morphed into a book, and then I really decided to because I I'm a very analytical person, I have an engineering degree, and I I people say the magic of camp, and I think that's a really fun phrase to say, but there's no such thing as magic, right? So I started delving in. It's not magic, it's science. And that's when I really started learning about the chemicals that are in our brain. And well, very long story short, was that I I realized that what we do at camp, perhaps by accident, perhaps through years of evolution in the camp industry, is really so backed in science that what we do is adjust chemicals in people's brains and provide an opportunity for them to have an environment where they can really grow and flourish. Um, so that was the motivation for the book. I I honestly never thought I would write it. It was just something I was like, someone should really write a book about this. And then eventually I decided, well, maybe I'll be that person. And I was like, okay, I'll be that person. And then I did it. It took a long time, and I'm not sure I would recommend writing a book to anybody else. The what it were.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Yeah, I think for sure. No, I can't imagine either. And, you know, very impressed that amongst all the other things you do within your own operation that you carved out to this time with a a little one at home. And like it's very impressive. So, so we're hoping that this really takes off. And I think that for me, you know, the topic of the book and having dove into it myself, I was really curious about a few aspects of the book that I thought, you know, Kelly and I really wanted to unpack with you, you know, to give people a sense of, you know, why they need to dive into it more. And in one of the concepts, maybe to get started, and Kelly, feel free to, you know, jump off with questions afterwards, is is this idea of, you know, what like this idea of engineering belonging, you know, this idea that, you know, we have these spaces that we create and we sometimes think that they they just happen automatically, right? And and yet, you know, you kind of illuminated, you illuminate the reader to understand this concept of engineering belonging. And maybe as a starting point, we can talk a little bit about that and then maybe dig a little deeper. But you what does it really mean to engineer belonging?

SPEAKER_05 11:56

In the camp industry, and when you go to these conferences, a big word that you hear is being intentional, intentionality, right? And I think I think engineering is just sort of the next level of it of intentionality. So when I talk about engineering belonging, I mean creating an opportunity for these chemicals to exist in your in a child or a staff member's brain in the right order. Um, and the first one, I'm not gonna go into a whole lot of detail, but but the first one is the first chemical that's important is is oxytocin. And that's the trust chemical. People often remember oxytocin as as the bonding chemical when a when a mother gives birth to a child, there's a flood of oxytocin, which is what makes you love the child. I mean, it's not there, it's a lot more complicated than that, but we simplify it for the purpose of the book. So this idea that if if you don't feel safe, if you don't have oxytocin, you can't really do something that's difficult. And that's true in camp, that's true anywhere you go. And what we do in camp is we create these environments, perhaps intentionally, perhaps unintentionally, of so much oxytocin. Just the way that that counselors are enmeshed with their campers, and they're these near peers, right? Like counselors are older than the campers, but they're not they're not 40 years older than the campers. They're they're these near peers. So they create this environment of safety of oxytocin. And in the book, I share a lot of stories. As camp professionals, we we've all experienced these stories. But when you think about a child who's homesick the first night at camp, you know, we don't we don't go to that child and give them a dissertation about how they're feeling and the chemicals going on in their brain and why this is a great experience for them. We have a counselor go over and put their arm around that child and tell them a funny story. You know, that builds oxytocin. Those are the those are the moments where we build trust. Um, so it's this idea of creating these these moments, creating these experiences that build up to a sense of belonging that then allows children and staff members to to grow and try new things and try hard things and be successful.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

I really like you're taking away that magic idea because it's like that's a Michael Branwein thing, too, of like, it's not magic, it's super intentional. So I like how you are replacing magic with basically where it's it's a creation of all of these things, but the environment has to be right, and the environment has to have all of these things in it to create, to engineer that. So I like how you're relating it to the brain and how it just works with our biology camp, just basically makes sense, but you still have to work towards it. It doesn't just happen. So do you oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 14:48

It it doesn't just happen, and that's something that I that I try to be very aware of in in the book because I I was I was nervous that people would think that camp is this magical place where this thing automatically happens and we can't do it anywhere else. But it's it's very clear that you know, just if you have a lake and a and a bunk and a bunch of kids, that doesn't make camps successful. And we've all heard stories of camps or groups of kids or whatever it might be that were not successful, right? So I think that that kind of proves that you have to do it running, you have to be intentional, just like Michael Branch has been saying all these years.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Gosh, he just so smart. Yeah. So I think yeah. Oh, go ahead. You go first.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

No, I just was thinking about so you list like the five chemicals of like oxytocin, dopamine, cortisol, serotonin, endorphins. Which ones do you feel like just are happen naturally at CAMP? And which ones do you feel like have to have that most intentional effort, whether it's during the summer or outside of CAM? But like what would you say when you think about all those different chemicals, neurochemicals that have to kind of be there to engineer this?

SPEAKER_05 16:02

Well, they all have different different roles, and just very quickly, oxytocin would be the the trust chemical. Dopamine is the the chemical that that spikes when you see a goal and you want to pursue that goal. Cortisol is called the stress chemical, which is a little, it's not really that's not really appropriate to to use that that phrasing. And then serotonin is the status chemical and makes you it you feel a good sense of of where you belong in the group. And then endorphins often call the runner's high. Endorphins make you feel good there, at least when you when you exercise or do something physical. Um and I think that endorphins are the easiest one to achieve in camp. We're often, you know, out there playing sports, we're dancing, we're laughing. Laughing produces a lot of endorphins, and we talk about endorphins giving us the fuel to then go back and do the difficult things that we have to do at camp, right? Like, like the camp job, as we all know, is extraordinarily taxing on your body. And I think the only way we get through it in the summer is because we release so many endorphins. We are we're we're playing, we're dancing, we're laughing, we're doing all those things, and the endorphin gives us the fuel. So, in terms of the easiest to produce, I I think endorphins are the easiest to produce. Uh I think the trickiest in the world right now is dopamine, uh, because uh you can get cheap dopamine, uh and and we see that with things like uh social media when young people and adults and people of all ages at this point getting cheap dopamine through uh their phones through through social media apps. And you get you get like this little uh this little good feeling when you hear your your phone buzz, um, but it's not really giving you anything. But I think at camp we have the opportunity to provide dopamine in a much uh healthier way. The example that I give in the book is the swim test. So uh when you have a child who's who's taking a swim test, we talk about making the goals visible. So if you make the goal visible, you get a spike of dopamine as you're achieving that goal. So you know, my camp, our swim our swim test is four laps across the pool the short way. So every time so so when we when we tell the the child what to do, or at least when I tell the child what to do, I always break it up into smaller segments. You know, I don't say you have to swim 120 feet, but that seems like a long distance to a six-year-old. 120 feet's a long way. I say you you just swim there and back, there and back, okay? And the first thing you're gonna do is you're gonna go to that wall. Just swim to that wall. Okay, so that that wall is a it's it's a prize for them. And seeing it and pursuing it spikes the dopamine for them. So these things are happening in our brains, and we're doing it as camp professionals. I was doing it for 35 years without knowing it. And it's it's just it's a very special thing that we do. It it it doesn't just work, there's a lot of science behind it. So I would say if they had to pick one chemical that's the most interesting right now, it would be dopamine because they're having different we do it in camp versus the rest of the world at this point in time.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

I also, you know, in in going through this list of neurochemicals, I, you know, we are the camp owners podcast. And as much as we deliver this experience to kids and our staff, I part of me starts to think about the impact all of these neurochemicals go through on us personally over the course of a summer and how many of us, you know, go through an entire season with all of the impact of all of these really vital neurochemicals on our own body. And we we know what we go through in terms of the stress and the satisfaction and the highs and the lows, and even in the course of a single day, you know, how many of these things are being, you know, pumped into our system and we're feeling the effects of them. And and I think that this goes to an issue as I think about it as far as camp director self-care and making sure you have good teams and how you know you can do this, which leads me, you know, and Matt, of course, I want you to comment on that. That may or may not be directly in the book, but I I find that your your statement about you know cortisol being kind of this very interesting one because of the impact cortisol has on stress, but you also talk about this this mini equation of stress plus support equals growth. And maybe we can, maybe in light of what I've just shared, like maybe you could just sort of talk a little bit about that because the impact of of the stress that kids are feeling, staff are feeling, and and us as camp directors, you know, what has to happen so we can manage it the best possible way to get the most out of this experience.

SPEAKER_05 21:08

Research on cortisol was so interesting to me because I had spent such a long time thinking, okay, you have to reduce your cortisol, you have to, you know, you have to get out of your body, you have to avoid these situations. And that's not really the case. If you have no cortisol, you have no growth. So cortisol is a chemical that gives you energy and focus to do something hard. And there's a very interesting interplay between cortisol and serotonin. So the example that I give in the book, and then I'll bring it back to sort of our self-care as camp directors, but the the example I give in the book is a child who is climbing the climbing tower, right? And they're they're afraid of heights and they're very nervous about this. And he's, you know, his name is Michael, and his cortisol is spiking like crazy, as mine would be, because I'm also afraid of heights. And the the idea is that uh sort of in in the in school, this situation where someone's climbing a climbing tower would result in one of two things. Either Michael would not climb because he's too scared, and he would get an F. Or somebody would say, uh, that's okay, you don't have to do it, right? Because the cortisol was too much and we would we would give up on it. But that's not what happens in camp. In camp, we have a staff member at the bottom who's belaying the child and saying things like, Hey, I remember the first time I climbed this during staff training, I was nervous too. All you have to do is pine. 10 feet. I got you. There's no way you can fall. I'm holding you. And this encouragement is uh increases this level of serotonin and oxytocin in the bloodstream and it overcomes the cortisol. And eventually, as we all know, because we've seen it thousands of times, Michael will climb. Right? He may only climb 10 feet or 20 feet, but but but he will climb. And that's the idea of stress plus support equals growth. And Michael will eventually learn that, hey, I'm the kind of person that can do these hard things with the support of my peers. And and as camp directors, we're in those positions every single day. We are we are so stressed out. And you know, I I like I always say, I've only spent time at my camp. I've spent 40 years at my camp. And I know that when I get stressed, I am very fortunate to have a team around me, not just my co-directors who are amazing, but but dozens of other people that I can turn to and say, hey, I'm having a hard time here. I need you to step up. I need your help. And they're in it with me. And when they see me get stressed, they're they're there to help me. And that's that serotonin oxytocin coming in to help diminish the cortisol impact. And I think that's really important for all of us. Howie mentioned, you know, taking care of yourself. I think we have very, very stressful jobs. We have high levels of cortisol. We have to make sure that we're taking care of ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

For sure. Kelly, I had to share a quick story. I think she won't mind. But Jordana, the co-host of the daycamp pod currently, first time going to overnight camp really gave us a hard time about getting on the bus. And we were at departure. And I'll never forget Sari and I tell this story all the time to our staff, how she was really, really struggling, really gave us a hard time. And it took a 16, 17-year-old CIT who was also at the buses wearing her sunglasses, who turned to her, lifted up her sunglasses, and said, asked her her name. She told her her name and looked at her and said, You know, I'm 16 years old. I've been going to camp for a lot of years. I still feel the same way on the first day of camp. Can I take you up on the bus? And I just going through the neurochemical stuff and what that did. And I just I have like all these also we have lots of examples in our life of how that act of, you know, not, you know, that support just is so important. And we, we, I'm sure in all of our camps, we tell lots of stories about that. But I just had to share that because Matt, I as soon as you started telling that story, I started thinking about my eight-year-old daughter many years ago just not wanting to go on the bus. And it just took that one person to help demonstrate that support. And I don't know what happened in her brain when that happened, but something happened that allowed her to get up on that bus. So, you know, thank you for sharing that because that just triggered that memory for me, which is really, really good. That's pretty cool. But yeah, cortisol.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

It makes me think about especially leading into camp and leading into our season and thinking about staff. And I'm assuming how we that that counselor doing that to your daughter was because someone relayed that importance of those kind of moments to them at staff training.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

So for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Matt, how are you? I'm sidebarring here a little bit, but like thinking about that, how are you training your staff at Remicoid for that stress plus support feature? Like, are you training them about all these neurochemicals and how those go into play with camp? Are you just training them about how to support campers? Like when you think about this, how are you training young people to facilitate this environment?

SPEAKER_05 26:19

That's a good question. And and I I think, you know, from being being honest, that a lot of the content of the book of brain chemistry isn't necessarily going to hit home, going to resonate with with our younger staff. What we are planning to do is to explain these concepts to our supervisors, who are all very professional. They're they're they're teachers or some some other youth development personnel. And they they know they know this innately, but but putting this framework around it, I think will will help them get better at it. And then we're going to do what we always do, which is really focus on role modeling for our staff. And and our we we find that our supervisors do the best job of training when they're in there with the staff and showing them how to do it and and putting their arm around a staff member and saying, Hey, you see what that camper do, you see how that camper's struggling to get on the bus? Why don't you tell her a story about the first time you you went on the bus. You've been a camper here for so long. And the and the supervisor's not doing it in that moment, but they're teaching the counselor how to do it. And in that way, they they level up the counselor. So I think it'll be very easy for me to say, hey, just you know, pass out one of these books to every one of your counselors, and that'll be fantastic. But I I don't I don't think that's reality with our younger staff. I think with our leadership staff, we can definitely go go into this level of detail for most for most of our camps. But I I'd be a little hesitant talking about the interplay of oxytocin and cores with a 16-year-old.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

And they just came off sophomore biology. They don't they didn't come to camp for that necessarily. Right. So I think that but but but that interplay between we our leadership staff being those teachers and and knowing how to approach it sounds like uh like the the most effective way to go about it.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

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SPEAKER_03 29:28

Kelly, I know that one of the things that we were thinking about asking Matt today was this idea of, you know, nothing at a great camp is accidental, right? You know, getting back to engineering and how we create those moments, etc. And I know one of the, you know, in talking to Matt, you know, prior to to coming on, I know that there are aspects of the book where he goes to a lot of lengths to make an argument that this stuff goes beyond what you do at camp, right? This idea that, you know, the the the impact of the neurochemicals and the intention, you know, the engineering stuff. So maybe Matt, we could just, you know, dig into a little bit about this. Nothing at camp is an accident and how we create spaces and and maybe for the people listening on, you know, what you're thinking about other areas in everyone's everyday life where you know this could be effective and and and be beneficial.

SPEAKER_05 30:27

So first I started writing the book for for me just to understand what what how this camp experience impacts me. And then I shifted into, well, this can really be useful for camps to understand why what they're doing is so effective in creating these communities. And then as I was doing that, the third part really came to me, which is that nothing that we're talking about here is unique to camps. This can apply to any organization. So in the book, I I speak specifically about schools, workplaces, and families. And and I think that we can really change the way that uh we we run our schools and our workplaces sort of institutionally by applying these these concepts and specifically with with schools. I I think that children have a hard time learning new things if they don't feel safe, if they don't have a sense of belonging. And I think that the best teachers, and we could probably think back to our school days, the the best teachers make the class feel like a camp almost. And the the classes were we all didn't feel comfortable speaking up, they were they didn't feel like camp at all. It just it just felt like we were sitting in our seats. So there's a lot of tips and tricks or camps, school for school workplaces and and families. And my my hope in in writing this book is that the rest of the world will look at what we do at camp and say something like, Hey, what they're doing there is pretty amazing. And we need to send all of our kids to camp, and we need all of our teenagers and young adults to work at camp for at least one summer, because that's really gonna set them up for success as we move into this world where skills like coding and researching are much less valuable, but skills like making someone feel comfortable and making someone feel like they belong become much more important. So sort of the whole the whole world is about to be flipped upside down with what skills are really important. So that was that was my my big hairy audacious goal with this book is to get the rest of the world to understand that what we do at camp is extremely important for for young people and and adults alike.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Do you feel like Matt, there are some, you know, like with Howie's question, do you feel like there are certain things that you are, I don't want to say deal breakers, but like you you they're a part of your culture that you always do to create this kind of belonging, whether it's with staff or like how you welcome staff, how you welcome campers. There are just certain things that are like, this is just something we always do because we believe so strongly. You know, I'm just thinking about those camps, you know, again, leading into summer, thinking about training their staff that are like, ooh, okay, like are there certain things that you feel like you very intentionally do to create that?

SPEAKER_05 33:32

So for our our first staff training, like like many camps, we have quite a few returning staff, most of our vast majority of our staff is returning. And at some point 15, 20 years ago, we started looking at that that first staff training through the lens of a new staff member. If they don't know anybody and they're walking in, the first thing they see is you know, a hundred people hugging each other, and they're not no one's hugging them, right? So that is a huge spike in cortisol with no oxytocin or serotonin to offset it in that moment. So from our staff training, and we're a day camp again. So people are driving in, they're not, they're not, you know, it's a little different in sleepwind camp, but in our first stack training, we take our returning staff and we move them to the complete opposite end of camp from our from our first year staff, and we actually keep them separated for the first hour and a half of camp. So the returning staff, they get their hugs out of the way, and the new staff, they're all they're all nervous together. So they get over it together. And then after about an hour and a half, we start mixing the groups together. And I think I think that's just something in in that we intentionally did that you know, in the framework of neuroscience, we're reducing cortisol at that point. Um and just making people feel like they can have a smoother entryway into care.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

How do you bring them together? I'm just curious. What do you do you said you slowly do, or how do you how do you mix them for the first time?

SPEAKER_05 35:00

So uh when we bring them back together, where I don't want to use the word cohort, I'm trying to avoid the word cohort because of COVID, but we we put them together with with their supervisor. Um so we have a supervisor for like just as an example, our six-year-old boys, and that supervisor has about 18 staff members. So there's sort of a natural way that they're putting to a group at that point. So those 18 staff members, 12 might be returning, six might be new, but those 12 have already gotten their hugs out of the way and they've already caught up about the whole the whole year, even though they, you know, spoken on Snapchat probably six hours earlier, but they've gotten it out of the way. So bring bringing the bringing the staff together, you know, there's always going to be a little bit of a bumpy road there, but we try to minimize that a little bit how we we do talk to the returning staff members, kind of a camp value of welcoming new staff, just like we're welcoming new campers. I think a lot of camps have that.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Yeah, we yeah, I I can totally relate to that too, Kelly, because we've similarly have done a separate new staff kind of short event within pre-camp and then bring everyone together. But when we bring the new staff in, we already seat the returning staff in our opening session where there's always a chair between two returning people. So the new staff have to fill the vacant chairs and we go through an exercise prior to them coming in to say what our expectation is about introducing them to someone that they know or themselves, et cetera. So I'm smiling, Matt, because you know, we have also found, you know, ways within our the context of our program to to do that. And it it makes a huge difference. And I like, I like, I like the imagery of all the returning staff, you know, getting all the all the stuff. And and the funny part about it is as if you cars, they they were just on social media together, just you know, an hour before getting to camp, which is so funny now. But nonetheless, that engineering of even a moment like that is so so powerful and and can set you up for so much success, you know, within minutes of getting building your team and the culture you want for the summer. Really cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah, we do we do ours where we bring all the returners first. And like you said, Matt, get the hugs and the squeals and the excitement out of the way and go through the schedule with them and talk about like, yeah, what what is your role? What do you want this summer to be like? You're the tone setters, and then they are my they're stationed all throughout, like kind of the entrance and greeting process. So there's certain people that like the entrance to the driveway and some at the parking lot and some doing the name takes and all the different things so that they have jobs and are also like greening and mingling. But then, like you said, you want to avoid that big, big circle of returning staff that feels that's gonna spike that cortisol for those new staff. So cool. Thanks for sharing that. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_05 38:00

I think what's so interesting to me was as I was going through and learning about all these chemicals, was finding out that so much of what we do at camp was actually correct. It it actually used the and like when we like some of our rituals, like there's just so much oxytocin happening, that there's there's so much trust, and then there's just the right amount of cortisol in these rituals. And that was really interesting. So I think when a lot of people read read this book, they're they're gonna think to themselves, hey, we got a lot of this right. And you know, it's it's just years of evolution in the camp industry, and it was just so so cool to see that come through.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Well, all the more reason to you know, congratulate you for being, you know, for the industry has to be more bold to get it the message out there of what we do. Like there's no doubt about that. And you know, we we are we are we've got this wonderful, I wouldn't say secret, but we have this wonderful formula to give young people the best path to be becoming the best people they can be. And we've kind of bottled it up. And being, it's not always in our nature to be so bold and out there with how we do it and what we do. And I I hope that the book serves as a, you know, a stepping stone or a leaping off point to you know, people really recognizing, you know, wouldn't it be great if a camp parent just kind of read a book like this and just said, boy, I run corporate offices here, and these are things that I can now do because my kid has been experiencing this forever at this camp or my camp, et cetera. So I think we're just not bold enough to get it out there. So I hope this opportunity with what you've created, you know, gives, you know, gives a good voice to all the great things we've been doing. Because I agree. I, you know, I think the book illuminates that we got we got a good thing going in our camps and we're doing all the right things. So, so it's really wonderful. I wanted to jump into with the time we have left, just a couple more things, you know, this idea that belonging as a design problem, not a personal failure. I really love that idea. And and maybe you can unpack it for for us a little bit, because I think it it it can it it serves as a great like next part of the discussion around the work that you've been doing in the book.

SPEAKER_05 40:21

I think that sometimes when we as a a member of our community, whether it's a child or or a staff member, that's not not thriving, and we all have have these these moments where we find someone who's not thriving. It's so easy to blame a person. Oh, that counselor's doing a terrible job. That that unit has doing a terrible job, or that that staff member just they're not into it, right? They're they don't belong here. It's very easy to do that, but when you understand that that belonging is is engineered and when you get the the environment right, people feel that, you can take a step back and maybe be a little bit uh dispassionate about it and say, okay, well, we know that human beings are human beings, and something isn't right here. And you can say, well, what is this person feeling? Are they feeling like they're uh like they're not safe? If they're feeling like they're not safe, well, we know that the missing chemical is oxytocin, okay, and we need to create some bonding experiences for that person. And maybe it's maybe you need to figure out are they a one-on-one type of person? Do they, you know, are we are we only doing group activities during during our staff training week? And maybe they need one-on-one because that's just the kind of person they are. So when you can identify what's missing, you can figure out a solution to that. So I think I think it takes a little bit of pressure off of people and and puts it back on just the system that we're creating.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

I really like that a lot, Matt, of thinking about what's missing and how can we design differently to be able to produce more of that or I guess create the environment for that to occur. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. You close out each chapter with your Monday morning blueprint. So if you could create your own like Monday morning blueprint for camp culture, what's one practice you would encourage like all leaders to do this summer?

SPEAKER_05 42:23

I'm gonna steal from my my my good friend and mentor, Joanna Warren Smith, and say, inspect your rituals. It's rituals are so important for camp, um, for creating that sense of belonging, for making people feel like they're part of something different for themselves. And it can be easy to let rituals degrade over time. And rituals don't have to be grand, they can be small. And I think that just taking a look at them and making sure that they're up to your expectations of the camp director, and you may need to tweak them a little bit, but but getting great rituals uh I think makes a lot of difference. And that's not me talking, that's Joanna Warren Smith. So she's she knows what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Do you have a favorite from your camp?

SPEAKER_05 43:13

I do have a favorite ritual from my camp. Um, if we do something called a legend ceremony, um and if you're at camp for six years or longer, you're indebted as a as a rabakoy legend. So camper with your staff six six years, and you get uh you get a sweatshirt, but you get you get to take part in in a ceremony, which uh we spent months. There was a group of about 10 of us on this committee creating this this ritual, and uh we did a lot of research and it it's just it's very well thought out, it's very meaningful for those children. So we have nine-year-olds who have been in our camp for for six years, and uh they go to this special place and they have they they read a special oath, which I can't tell you about because it's secret. And some of them, some of them go home and they they tell to they say to their parents thing things like, I had this amazing moment at camp, but I'm not allowed to tell you about it.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

Oh hello.

SPEAKER_05 44:09

And then those parents call us and we explain that this is a really special honor. They uh it's it's just a really a really special thing for our campers. And um I I love it. And we we have different people running this this ritual around about four or five times every summer. And then it's just it's it's a really special special thing. But it it it takes a lot of uh intentionality to create a a ritual like that.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

That's cool. That's very cool. Yeah, so I have my wheels turning.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

For sure. For sure. For sure. Very good.

SPEAKER_05 44:43

I'm trying to come up with a with a new ritual for our camp right now. And I'll tell you that it is extremely difficult. So when I when I say inspect your rituals, keep it keep your rituals sacred, I understand just how difficult it is because we're trying to create a new one right now.

SPEAKER_04 44:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

But there, you know, there was a a really great discussion at Coda about kind of rituals and looking at your rituals and thinking and traditions, even really not necessarily rituals, but just about thinking about what's the intent? Who are they serving? Do they still speak to your mission and your culture at camp? And sometimes your, you know, culture and camp changes. So it's okay to reevaluate those and change or modify. And it's not always easy, but there was a good discussion about that. So I like that advice. I think that's very healthy and smart. So before we wrap, I did have one question quick, Howie. But I was curious, Matt, I wanted to ask quick. You mentioned about dopamine and getting you talked about cheap dopamine. And so I was curious, in your book, do you provide some examples about how camp can provide healthy dopamine for kids? Because I do think and staff, I'm not even just say kids, I think because I do notice that like it's just dopamine hits constantly with their phone. And coming to camp is one kind of a detox from the cheap dopamine drug that they're getting. But it's like, how can we give that healthy dopamine that they can also seek outside of camp? Or like you talked about how in that year-round, not just at camp, but they can they can feel how that feels to get it that way and then seek that out when they're not at camp.

SPEAKER_05 46:35

I think the year-round part of that is a is a big is a big question that we are that we just deal with in society. You're reading the anxious generation. This is this is probably a political thing or a societal thing that that we'll need to address. But I in camp, I think that we do it really well. Part of the benefit of dopamine is is really having this like immediate feedback loop. And that's why the phone is so is so addicting. You you get a you get a buzz, you hear a ding, and you see a message. So you so it's buzz, message, feel good. It's such a tight uh loop. In camp, we we tend to do this really well when especially when when can't when counselors are giving positive reinforcements. Camper throws out their garbage and the counselor immediately says, Thank you, you did a great job. That is a dopamine hit, and that's a beneficial dopamine hit, and that that feedback loop is very fast. Uh we even do it in sports, right? Like you, you know, you swing the bat, you get a hit. That feels good. That's a dopamine rush. Um, so I think can't do this really, really well. And the tricky part is is taking that into the school setting and the not camp setting. If you think about it in schools, the dopamine loop is is weeks, sometimes longer. If you if you're a student in school and you have a chemistry test and you you read that book and you study for you know for days or weeks and you take the test, and then two weeks later you get the grade back and you you get an a 95 on that test. That dopamine loop is is a month. You know, you did the you did the work for that 95, you did that three or four weeks ago. That is not an effective dopamine loop. That that's not a rewarding cycle in the same way that the counselor praising you for throwing out your garbage is an immediate beneficial loop. So that there isn't clear in schools and and and in non-camp environments because that dopamine loop is just way too long. Human being force is not for a dopamine loop.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

And and I think it speaks to how we train our supervisors of staff too, because so many of our high school and college age, you know, staff are in that situation, just like you described, like, you know, just doing all the work and then waiting for so long. So how we even give that feedback, not only to the camper who threw out the garbage, but the staff member who is, you know, modeling the way we want or delivering a technique on behavior management, the way they've been trained in in, you know, during orientation and pre-camp. Like we just how we can get our supervisory staff to be very mindful of that is such a motivator for them to continue demonstrating that behavior and you know, makes them feel that they're part of something that is truly special. I and Matt, I'm sure this is the case with you and Kelly as well, is like, how many of the teachers do you work with every summer who just say, Oh my God, I wish school was like camp? You know, how many do you, you know, you know, deal with that that say, Man, I wish, I wish the administration in my school would do what we do here at camp. And so the book itself and I think the play on the year-round impact, we gotta get we gotta get some gotta get a lot of educators on the track of of reading all this stuff too, for sure. So it's been really this is this is great stuff.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. This is super helpful. Excited to read the book. I love some good learning. So this is fabulous. Thank you. Howie, should we move into our rapid fire questions?

SPEAKER_03 50:18

I think we got to hit Matt up with the rapid fire questions.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Let's do it, man.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

We've been really starting this all day. I've I've I've been nervous all day for this.

unknown 50:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Have you been nervous? But listen, we're gonna create stress plus support. So we've gonna have growth right now, Matt. So you've got this, and just go with your gut. No one is judging you. This is just all right, we got it in your core. Okay, are you ready? What is your favorite camp meal?

SPEAKER_05 50:43

Southern fried chicken. Final banquet, southern fried chicken, mashed potatoes, and biscuits.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Oh, I love a good biscuit. Yum. Okay, if you could lead any program area, what would it be?

SPEAKER_05 50:54

Hockey.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Hockey. I did not expect that from you.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

He just said that on purpose. No, I love hockey. I'm not, I'm I'm being completely serious. I know, I know. I'm still reeling Canada lost the gold, but whatever.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

But now you have spiked Howie's cortisol, so we just we have to pick that out.

SPEAKER_03 51:12

It's a good lots of support. I can't I can tell you it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

In another four years, Howie. Okay, s'mores. Burnt or golden brown?

SPEAKER_05 51:22

Golden brown. Now with an easy question.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Okay. When you were a camper, did you miss home and it made and that would make it hard to enjoy it? Or were you like peace out, see it, pick up parents or family?

SPEAKER_05 51:35

My my first year as a camper, I was the most homesick camper ever in the history of camp. And I was into a camp.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Well, you've grown a lot. You've grown a lot. As a camp pro, as a camp pro, are you happiest like in the office, on the phone, on your computer, or are you like making all the wheels keep turning? Are you happy being happier being out in the action?

SPEAKER_05 52:01

Definitely happier being out in the act than a lot of my role, which I definitely enjoy, is the behind the scenes on the computer logistics, program planning, stuff like that. But I I set up my days so that I could be outside as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Okay. Last one, favorite camp song.

SPEAKER_05 52:18

Favorite chance song. Yeah, I'm not gonna sing it. We have a uh a ridiculous cheer at our camp called the Mehi Mahay Maho Cheer. And it's it's more of a chance than than a song, but I I love it and I'm gonna stick with that and I'm not gonna sing it.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Okay, next time we're in person, though, will you do it for us?

SPEAKER_03 52:39

No, we're gonna we're gonna call, we're gonna write Jared and he's gonna give us a video of Matt doing it or something.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Okay, done.

SPEAKER_05 52:45

My my co-director, Jared, would be happy to to do it on this podcast for some people.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

You know what? Everybody has their role, Matt. So that's good. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Matt, this has been absolutely great. Thank you for coming back on the show and sharing the the work that you've done and producing this great resource for everyone. We highly encourage everyone to check out the campfire effect. In our show notes is a link, not only to where you can purchase it on Amazon, but Matt has a terrific website that I'm happy to plug. Matt, on your behalf, it's www.ilove.camp. Matt, maybe you can just speak to what's on that website for people to get kind of connected to you on.

SPEAKER_05 53:34

I just post blogs there. In addition to things like the Campfire Sect, I'm I'm very interested in artificial intelligence. So I post blogs about belonging as well as artificial intelligence. So feel free to check that out if it's helpful to you.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Yeah. And if people want to get a hold of you personally, Matt, and connect, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_05 53:53

You can email me at my Ramacoy email address, just Matt M A T T at Ramacoy.com. Ramacoy is R-A-M-A-U-U-O-I-S.com.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

Amazing. Amazing. Kelly, how can our friends connect with you at this time of year?

SPEAKER_01 54:12

My email, probably Kelly with a Y at hidden pinesrange.com. What about you, Howie?

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Howie at camprovinhood.ca. And please reach out for any ideas or ideas for guests or topics. We are we are excited to hear from our listeners and appreciate everyone checking out the podcast. As we wrap up, we couldn't do this without the amazing sponsorship we have from Camptivities. As Kelly said, to start off the show, to the entire team of Camptivities, thank you for this. And by all means, we highly encourage everyone to check out Camptivities to help solve all your scheduling challenges and frustrations you may have. It's one great resource. Please don't forget that you can find out all find all of our show notes at gocamp.pro slash ownerspod. You can find the resources that we mentioned in this episode and lots of good stuff there from not only our show, but the other GoCamp Pro podcasts out there. They're all terrific. We hope you enjoyed this. On behalf of Kelly and myself, thanks once again for joining us on the Camp Owners Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Thanks for tuning in to the Camp Owners Podcast. If you like what you heard, please leave us a review on Apple Music or wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget, you can find our show notes at gocamp.pro slash ownerspod. The Camp Owners Podcast is part of the GoCamp Pro Podcast Network. Find a podcast for Camp Pros of every age and stage at GoCamp.pro slash podcast. Hey Camp Pros. We love that our industry is built on sharing. In order to foster that spirit, if you've gotten even one good idea from a GoCamp Pro podcast, a masterclass, from the Summer Camp Pros group on Facebook, at a conference, or wherever else, we ask that you give credit where credit is due. That way, we can encourage Camp Pros to keep freely sharing their brilliant ideas and make the camp industry better. Thanks very much.