As an American in the 21st century, it’s incredibly easy to look back on the Revolutionary War and joke about the "redcoats," but would you really have been a patriot if you lived at that time? In a special episode of Fabric of History, Mary is joined by Dr. Rebecca Brannon, Associate Professor of History and Interdisciplinary Liberal Studies at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia, and author of "From Revolution to Reunion: The Reintegration of the South Carolina Loyalists," to take a closer look at the reasons why people chose to side as patriots or loyalists, or why they may have decided to walk the challenging tightrope of neutrality. What are some examples of regular citizens navigating this difficult time, and what happened to them after the Revolution? What unique challenges did the Revolution pose for minorities and women?
View our episode page for additional resources!
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/was-the-revolutionary-war-americas-first-civil-war
As an American in the 21st century, it’s incredibly easy to look back on the Revolutionary War and joke about the "redcoats," but would you really have been a patriot if you lived at that time? In a special episode of Fabric of History, Mary is joined by Dr. Rebecca Brannon, Associate Professor of History and Interdisciplinary Liberal Studies at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia, and author of "From Revolution to Reunion: The Reintegration of the South Carolina Loyalists," to take a closer look at the reasons why people chose to side as patriots or loyalists, or why they may have decided to walk the challenging tightrope of neutrality. What are some examples of regular citizens navigating this difficult time, and what happened to them after the Revolution? What unique challenges did the Revolution pose for minorities and women?
View our episode page for additional resources!
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/was-the-revolutionary-war-americas-first-civil-war
Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of History weaves together US history, founding principles, and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what's inside.
Speaker 1 (00:20)
As an American in the 21st century, it's incredibly easy to look back at the Revolutionary War and joke about the Red Coats. But would you really have been a Patriot if you lived at that time? In a special episode of Fabric of History, Mary is joined by Dr. Rebecca Brannon, associate professor of history and interdisciplinary Liberal studies at James Madison University and author of From Revolution to Reunion, The Reintegration of the South Carolina Loyalists, to take a closer look at the reasons why people chose to side as Patriots or Loyalists, or why they might have decided to walk the challenging tightrope of neutrality. What are some examples of regular citizens navigating this difficult time and what happened to them after the Revolution? What unique challenges did the Revolution pose for minorities and women?
Mary (01:14)
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Fabric of History. I'm Mary Patterson, and I'm so glad that you've chosen to come back and listen to more compelling stories with us today. I'm really excited for today's conversation because we're going to explore a topic that is near and dear to me personally. I've always been fascinated by the story. I loved teaching this when I was a history teacher. And it's near and dear to the Bill of Rights Institute as an organization. And I'm talking about the American Revolution. We talk about the American Revolution. We celebrate the American Revolution every year almost as if it was a foregone conclusion that these 13 piddly little colonies could defeat the British Empire and get their independence. But at the time, nothing was certain, and it was a long war, and there were lots of things at stake. And it really, I think, came down to really difficult decisions that men and women had to make. And namely, do you support this cause of independence? Are you a Patriot or do you remain loyal to the Crown? Because at the time, the colonies have been under Royal control for 170 years with all you've known. So it's a really fascinating question. And to help me explore this question, I'm so excited to introduce Dr. Rebecca Brannon, who is the associate professor of history at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia, and a Loyalist expert. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Dr. Brannon (02:56)
Thank you for having me. I'm always excited to talk Loyalist.
Mary (03:00)
Yeah. No, we're delighted that you're with us today, and I have to say that. So the first time that Dr. Brannon you entered our orbit here at the Bill of Rights Institute was as an offer for our online US history textbook, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. And she wrote an essay entitled Loyalist versus Patriot. And it's a decision point. So we called essays that were really focusing in on making a decision so not knowing how things are going to shake out in history. And it's one of my absolute favorite essays in that resource. And I think there's like 450 plus essays in there. It's a huge work by all these amazing scholars. But for me, it really drove home this idea that do you pick a side or how do you pick aside do you have to pick aside all these really cool questions? So I guess I'll start with the big question. The essay is entitled Loyalist versus Patriot, and you make it sound like it was really the Revolution was a Civil War. So do you think it was a Civil War?
Dr. Brannon (04:06)
I absolutely think it was a Civil War because America's first Civil War in many ways. And there are lots of reasons. I think this one is if you want to. So we like to say the American Civil War was brother against brother, cousin against cousin. But if you really want to find a cousin's war, look to the American Revolution. There really were families that were split between Loyalists and Patriots, where brothers fought on opposite sides, where they even family members encountered each other on opposite sides of the same battlefield, each using their local knowledge to try to beat the other, where children had to decide whether to execute their parents or turn them in because they were split on loyalties. There is a great story in South Carolina, where this elderly father, who is an ardent Loyalist, tries to sneak out of the house in the middle of the night because his son is a Patriot militia commander. And they're all there for the night before an attack the next morning. And he tries to sneak out to warn the Loyalist forces where his son is to catch him. And because he's so elderly, they tie him to the bedstead for the rest of the night and stand guard. But this is the kind of story you can find in the Revolution, right. Real Civil War pinning families against each other. I also like to tell that story because at least it ends well. Patriots win the battle. The next day, the elderly Loyalist father survives. If he'd been a 17-year-old boy caught in the woods, they would have executed him as a spy.
Mary (05:48)
Wow.
Dr. Brannon (05:50)
I also think it's a Civil War because society is cleaved in half. Right. It's not like South Carolina decides to be Loyalist and New England decides to be Patriot. In fact, the British start the war with this mass apprehension that it's just a Boston problem or a Massachusetts problem. They could just get New Englanders to behave themselves. Everyone else is good and loyal, and they're surprised, horrified even to learn that that's not the case. But at the same time, you find Loyalists and Patriots everywhere in the 13 colonies. It's not a foregone conclusion or even one that you can easily say this state goes one way and another state goes another.
Mary (06:34)
I love that story about tying the old man to the bedpost, but I mean, that really drives home what you're saying. This is like, families are split over this decision, and it's your life, right? He could have been executed. It's not like, oh, we root for the Yankees or the Red Sox split. It's like the stakes are high.
Dr. Brannon (06:59)
Yeah. And I told you about a not very famous family, but of course, he's a famous example, too, because Benjamin Franklin becomes a Patriot, and his son, William Franklin, who he had gotten a job essentially as a Royal governor of New Jersey, stays loyal, and they have a final meeting. And Benjamin Franklin is sort of like, you're my son. You owe me this. Right. I know you're a Royal governor and you promised all these things to support the Crown, but you're my son and you owe me the authority of a father. And also I'm really hurt. William Franklin says, you know, I love you, but I'm a Royal governor, and I don't think this is such a good idea. And I made vows and I'm going to keep them. That's the last time they ever speak.
Mary (07:51)
Wow. Yeah. That's really you gave an example of Benjamin Franklin, of course, that we all know. But then families whose names and faces are kind of lost to history. So it's really affecting the whole gamut of society like you said. I mean, who were Loyalists in all walks of life, or were certain groups more likely to be loyal than others?
Dr. Brannon (08:14)
I'm glad you asked that question because a generation of historians before me tried, nailed that down, and tried different theories. The British were convinced it was a Presbyterian problem, that somehow Presbyterians were they would call rebels, we would call Patriots. And there's the South Carolina-based British commander who goes burning every Presbyterian Church he can get his hands on. He tries to burn them all down. He calls them sedition shops, it has no effect whatsoever on people's affiliation with Patriot or Loyalist. He's wrong. There's not a lot of evidence that your religion determines your loyalty. Except Quakers were pacifists, and there are several other groups of pacifists in what becomes the early United States. And they're desperately trying to stay neutral and honor their pacifist religious instincts and beliefs. The only one that's clear is what we would call Episcopalian, what they would have called Anglican or Church of England. Ministers are much more likely to be loyal. Well, that makes sense because they're all trained in England. They're largely English trained in England, so they don't come to the colonies until they're young adults. And so their loyalties, we might think, not only politically but emotionally instinctually, lie with the place of their birth. Other than that, religion is not a clear guide. Occupation is not a clear guide. There are lawyers on both sides. There are ministers on both sides. There are merchants on both sides. Also, the merchants keep cheating and trying to smuggle throughout the entire war, just like they do throughout every war in the 18th century. Right. What could be more American than want to make a fast buck regardless of ideology. So there's a long way of saying a generation tried to prove that there were ways to predict who would be a Patriot and who would be a loyalist. And it really doesn't seem to pan out in any data-driven way that people have tried.
Mary (10:32)
That's really interesting to me, as someone who likes having concrete answers and being in front of students that liked an easy answer. This person is definitely going to be a Loyalist. This person would choose to be a Patriot. It's frustrating in a way, because it's like, well, so it really just comes down, I guess, in a lot of ways, to what the individual feels is appropriate or what is right or what is just. And then it's messy. Yeah.
Dr. Brannon (11:02)
It actually comes down to that. The other thing it comes down to the one thing I could say is that towns tend to stick together, even though I can give you examples of families that split towns often stay together. So if the leading men in town decide that they're patriots, others are more likely to follow that path. If the town tends to be loyalists, others are more likely to follow that path. But what makes it a true civil war is the town. One over or three over might make a different choice. But communities tend to stick together, in part because it's practical, and in part, I think because in 18th century America there's very much this sense of elite leadership, and that an elite might be just a better-off farmer in a Western town, but that they give benefits to the community and their instincts are valued as people who are perhaps more educated, more worldly.
Mary (12:09)
I want to explore the idea of saying neutral if it's possible to be neutral in this conflict. So it's a very long war and their armies need food and they need places to Lodge. Can you stay neutral in this fight?
Dr. Brannon (12:35)
It's really hard. So I think a majority of Americans, meaning people who were living in the 13 mainland colonies, would have stayed neutral if they could have. On the one hand, the Patriots. It's a big ask, in a sense. It's a big political ask. Join our cause. Support this idea of independence and a new political order. Risk everything you have your farm, your homestead, your oldest sons, the prospect of life for the next generation. Risk it all because we tell you this is a good political idea and you hope that maybe we'll win. And political leaders make all kinds of promises during war. Right. And they might not even make them in bad faith, but there's no guarantee they'll be able to do all these things for the populace. It's a huge political ask like risk at all. The Loyalists. On the one hand, it seems less risky. On the other hand, the British quickly amplify the ask themselves. So they start with loyalty just means you remain a subject of the King like you were born and you recognize Parliament's authority. And we'll work out the finer details of the political arrangement when you're not at war. But then they start asking people, men in particular, okay, join the loyalist militia. And that can start with join the militia and discipline your neighbors, who seem to be Patriots, which can give rise to all kinds of bad behavior. Next, they say, march to another colony and serve as our army. That's a really big ask, too. Of course, a lot of people would like to stay neutral, but it's really hard. It's really hard when the army comes and you're told join one of the armies. Nobody likes a neutral. Nobody trusts you. You can't get benefits from either government. And by benefits, I mean things like protection from the other army, secure food lines, all kinds of things we want because it's a civil war, there's a lot of bad behavior. And it's actually not just individuals, it's militias who are sort of being used as not really a police force because police are disciplined, but a harassing force to persuade people to not oppose them. And if you live through this eight-year war, you could have a militia harassing you from both sides at different points in the war. And so it's really hard not to choose a side eventually, if for nothing else, in self-protection.
Mary (15:38)
Yeah, well, it sounds like that. I think that's for a lot of people, that's their number one. Right. Their priority is to protect themselves, their family, their farm, if they can. It's interesting. So you mentioned the loyalist militias, and this is going to make me sound silly, but I have no problem with that. I do that all the time. I didn't ever think about loyalist militias. Like you think about the Red Coats coming, and you think about this Armada coming over to after the Bostonians are raising a hullabaloo. But I didn't think about it wasn't just Red Coats, so it's actual colonists joining and fighting in a militia force, too, is that correct?
Dr. Brannon (16:21)
Yes. And colonists joining both regular armies and militias on both sides. And there are battles that are just Patriot militias versus loyalist militias, in fact, and then other battles that have some of the Continental Army, the regular American Army for the Patriots, but all loyalists and then a British commander.
Mary (16:46)
These are the sort of things that I love learning because it's so fascinating. But at the same time, there's almost this element of intellectual betrayal. Like, I didn't know about this. I didn't hear about this when I was learning about it. And so in turn, I didn't pass that on to my students. But that's such a great part of the story. Because it makes it messy. And it really, I think, drives home this idea that it is a civil war because it's not just these evil lobster backs, these red coats coming over, attacking us. It's your neighbor like you said, or the next town over.
Dr. Brannon (17:22)
Right. And you have to take up arms. And it's very hard to stay neutral. And it makes it very messy and very difficult.
Mary (17:30)
Well, this is again, I've already feel like I've learned a lot, and I want to write down writing down all these notes as you're talking, because it's so yeah, we love stories here at the Bill of Rights Institutes, and I love complicating those stories. So I think we're on a good run here. So why don't we take a quick break and we will explore more with Dr. Brannon about loyalism in the American Revolution?
Mary (17:59)
Dr. Brannon, you mentioned or we talked a little bit about the split in society where some people are Patriots, some people are Loyalists, some people try to stay neutral. And that's really difficult to do. Is it possible to say it was a third roughly, people supporting one cause, a third supporting the other, and a third neutral, or is it just we can't know we have a decent idea.
Dr. Brannon (18:25)
We can't be perfect. John Adams is the one who famously said one third were Patriots, one third were neutral, and one third were loyalists. Of course, he says it in a letter long after the revolution. The best estimates we have are probably 20% of the population, I should say 20% of the white free population were actively loyal, meaning that they did something that shows us they were loyal, like joined the militia or made authorities think they were loyal and therefore were persecuted. Probably close to a third really were Patriots. And everybody else is hanging out in the middle, trying to stay neutral, trying to dodge commitment, because commitment gets you into trouble signing things, statements welcoming what could either be seen as the British freeing us and coming to defend us or the invading conquerors, basically, whoever wins the war now, you have your name on this welcome or welcoming the invaders or those who are freeing you. Signing things gets you into trouble in this world, which is, by the way, why the Patriots famously to put a John Hancock is to put your signature in bold on something, because John Hancock signed the Declaration of Independence in really big script. And the point he was making was anyone who signed the Declaration of Independence would be executed if the revolution failed, and they'd be executed for their actions. And so he said he signed it so big that King George III could read it without his glasses.
Mary (20:17)
I love that.
Dr. Brannon (20:18)
But this is a world in which signing things can get you into trouble later.
Mary (20:22)
Even in the closing of the Declaration of Independence, they say we pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor and then you put your name on it. And that was a piece of it that I love to explain to my students is like they were risking everything to put their name down like that.
Dr. Brannon (20:39)
And to talk Patriots. There's a moment during the war where the Continental Army, the regular army, is getting restive and they've captured. They can't capture Benedict Arnold. He gets away with this traitorous behavior. But they captured the British agent John Andre. And some of his officers don't want to execute Andre. And George Washington reminds them as their commander in chief that if they lose the war, all of these officers will be executed, including him, of course. Right. They're all going to die together if they lose this war because they'll be traitors. So why are they hesitating right?
Mary (21:21)
Well, yeah. And he was person number one, Washington, if the war failed. So that we have in another episode of The Fabric of History, we talked about Benedict Arnold, and I think his story, again, is really fascinating because it's sort of this right. There is the spectrum where he starts off supporting one side but moves to the other. But I also think just the idea of John Andre. Right. Who does who is end up captured. And the fact that they're reluctant to carry out the sentence, I think, shows you that messiness. And I don't know. Do you think it was because they saw him as an officer and a gentleman and he was being loyal to his side?
Dr. Brannon (22:07)
It's partly that their definition of spy excludes gentlemen. And they saw him as a gentleman, and yet he met the definition. Right. He was not wearing his uniform. He was wearing plain clothes. He was clearly trying to evade the other army. He was carrying information. But their understanding of what a spy was with a lower-class person. And so they kind of quibbled with he's an honorable officer. Well, he was also a spy.
Mary (22:40)
Yeah. I mentioned before that we don't hear about or I didn't hear about her. I didn't realize they were loyalist militias. And there are so many pieces of this story that you just don't hear much about. And I think the idea of trying to stay neutral, we don't hear as much about loyalists and we don't hear as much about people trying to stay neutral, too. And that raises interesting questions, like, do we just not know how they were able to do it, or was it not so much saying neutral is playing both sides against each other? I don't know. Are there any examples that you can talk about?
Dr. Brannon (23:18)
Absolutely. But they're framed by the fact that it's hard it's hard to stay neutral, and it's especially hard for men. So women are both identified as having their husband's political standing and opinions, whether they do or not. And minors, which for boys means they have to be under 16 in a war, are understood to be under their parents' control. But for adult men, it's very difficult to stay neutral for those who are pacifists. We're part of religious organizations and part of religious congregations that are known to be pacifists. It's a constant work in progress. I remember reading the sort of town diary of some Moravian communities in North Carolina. And the Moravian communities kept a town diary. Usually, the Minister kept it. And so that's how this source comes to be. And if you read it, there's a period in the middle of the revolution where the Minister keeps talking about so we heard some rumors and we moved all of our cattle and our horses to this place. And then we heard that it was safe, so we moved them back. And you can trace literally the troop movements in their area, coming up to a big battle by where they're constantly getting rumors and moving their horses and cattle, simply trying to protect their property from either army. But their neutrality is a really worried neutrality. Right. They're worried they're going to be pressed in. They're worried that the fact that they don't have combatants on either side simply makes all their properties sitting ducks for either army. But they never come out and say that it's all about the movements, but because they don't want to spell out what they're afraid of. That's one example that comes to mind. Another example is there's another author, Judith Ben Buskirk, and she's written this wonderful book about loyalists and Patriots in the greater New York area called Generous Enemies. And her opening piece is about a raid on Long Island where they come in the middle of the night to take prisoners. And the men who row ashore to take prisoners are from the same community. They take some prisoners, and after they've tied them up under cover of darkness for the rest of the night, they go visit family and friends. And then just before dawn, they rode off with their prisoners.
Mary (25:58)
Yeah. Well, that's a great example of this whole community is torn apart. That's very clear. Right. Like, as you've said, communities, families just sort of being cleaved apart.
Dr. Brannon (26:10)
Right. And so you can see that women and older men who are past the age of military obligations are staying home. Are they neutral? Maybe. Are they using neutrality to not have to flee? Absolutely. We know that a lot of families on both sides used the fact that women are considered non-combatants to their advantage and make sure that women stay in the family home, even if men have to flee ahead of the army. And so the idea is possession is nine-tenths of the law, and by making sure the family property is occupied, it limits their potential losses. And so that's a kind of carefully crafted neutrality that plays with this idea that women are both non-combatants without political ideology of their own, and yet identifiable with their husband's political ideology and allows them to stay and there are some women who harass British officers when they come to town and others whose daughters keep flirting.
Mary (27:27)
Again. That's another part of the story we don't always get to hear. But I think that's not just thinking with my classroom high school history teacher hat on like you have so little time to get into all these cool little stories sometimes that it's hard to do it justice.
Dr. Brannon (27:47)
Can I throw you something else that doesn't exactly do? Well, I know we want to talk about what happens after the revolution to people who end up choosing the loyalist side, but there's also a lot of British soldiers who are not officers, who are regular enlisted people, both mercenaries from Germany, the Hessians, and people from the British Isles who, in fighting this war, are looking around and saying, this place looks kind of good. Actually, I have no I joined the army or was drafted into the army, more likely because I'm a person of fairly low social standing back in my home country. And here I might become an independent landowner. I'd like to stay. And so the new United States becomes one of the easiest places to get citizenship in what's in the Western world. And you apply to the state you want to live in. And the States are really pretty generous with citizenship after the revolution. So they know that these are former British soldiers, and they ask them like, are you now committed to the United States? Yes. Have you done anything to put down some roots here? Yes. I've just acquired this land, or I'm hoping to acquire 100 acres, or I've married an American woman. And this becomes an enormously attractive opportunity for a lot of British soldiers who choose to stay and become American citizens after the war.
Mary (29:19)
Again, yeah, that is really interesting, but it does make a lot of sense if you think about a smaller place, Great Britain, and it's more sort of established. But here in the United States, that's why a lot of people came, to begin with, is for opportunities, economic opportunity.
Dr. Brannon (29:37)
And it was certainly there was inequality in late 18th century America of all kinds. But among white people, there was still more of a chance for a more fundamentally middle-class society, for a lot of people. And they could see that opportunity. And that's not something everywhere in Europe offered.
Mary (29:58)
I'd like to ask you about enslaved people and freed blacks at this time period. So is it similar in that it's hard to say if they would choose a side or we can't pinpoint their decisions that were made at the time?
Dr. Brannon (30:16)
So we know it was very rare for enslaved people to fight for the Patriot cause. And those enslaved people who did fight for the Patriot cause were from what we would call the north now, particularly New England. And that's because the Patriots offer them freedom in return for their service for a number of years and it often has to be done with the agreement of their masters, but who often give agreement as one of their many donations to the cause.
Mary (30:49)
This is the ultimate paradox. Right. If you're talking about the American Revolution and this revolution based on these ideals of Liberty, inequality, and self-government.
Dr. Brannon (31:00)
Human dignity, but only for white people.
Mary (31:06)
History sort of plays out the way that it does, but it's also an opportunity for optimism. And I know there are enslaved individuals who hear know these words of all men are created equal, and they're going to use these words.
Dr. Brannon (31:23)
They absolutely do. There's a stampeded parade protest in Charleston, South Carolina, and the Low Country, as it's called. That area of South Carolina is a place where African Americans and Africans outnumbered white settlers nine to one was a heavily enslaved society. And so there is the Stamp Act protest in the streets of Charleston, Liberty, and no stamps. A few hours later, black people parade through town and the men take off their shirts and have written Liberty across their chests.
Mary (32:07)
Wow.
Dr. Brannon (32:08)
Point heard point taken.
Mary (32:10)
Yeah, that's so powerful. Again. And that's a great example. And I want to know where do you read about that? How do you find that in the store? Because we don't hear that. And I think everyone would be better off knowing that part of the story.
Dr. Brannon (32:27)
I mean, Liberty is an enchanting ideal, as you say, and it's enchanting to so many people. And the American Patriots said they wanted to shine a light to the world. It's just once you start shining a light to the world, you better mean it. And in the south, there are black Loyalists because they see the British as the real guarantors of their Liberty. And a British governor, Dunsmore of Virginia offers enslaved men, if you fight for the British cause, we'll free you. And the British are hesitant about this at first through the war, but they see the military benefits of the chaos and destruction of agriculture it causes to their enemy. The Patriots in the south and enslaved people flee to the British camps in large numbers. Estimates of 20% or more of the enslaved population of parts of the south fled to the British cause. And the lines during the war.
Mary (33:43)
Is it possible or is it known how many of those actually receive their freedom after they cast their lot with the British?
Dr. Brannon (33:52)
We have some clues, and not all of them get their freedom. The British swallow and end up guaranteeing at the end, but they send thousands to die at Yorktown, digging trenches and getting smallpox before the final battle at Yorktown. It's formerly enslaved people who are digging those trenches all around Yorktown, and smallpox spreads through the whole camp. And there's no effort to protect those who are of African descent from the raging smallpox epidemic. So not everybody makes it to freedom. And the Patriots and white Loyalists are walking the line saying he was my slave once. Whether that's true or not, they see it as an opportunity to get some property and people. But the British do transport over 3000 African Americans from big port cities to Canada after the war, and they do take them to Canada and try to offer them land grants, just as they offer white Loyalists who they also provide transportation to Canada after the war. What's today Canada.
Mary (35:18)
So that story raises a couple of issues in my head. So one is that when we think about history and we want to be more inclusive, like knowing the fate of these African Americans digging the trenches that you work down, it's really tragic. How can you not hear that story and have your heartbreak a little bit, especially when you're thinking about we think about July 4th and fireworks and American principles of liberty and equality? But that's part of the story, and it needs to be told and it needs to be owned. And that doesn't mean the whole story is bad. But I think it's important that we know it and that we sit with what that actually looked like and just the idea of loyalism writ large. We don't hear as much about it. And I think that's a disservice to the story because the story of the American Revolution because it makes it a little messy and it makes it but much more interesting and more human. And I'd like to you mentioned Loyalists going to Canada when the war ends. And I guess that's sort of my final question for you is how does this story end?
Mary (36:28)
So some go to Canada, but did they all go to Canada, or what happens next?
Dr. Brannon (36:32)
They don't all go to Canada, but at the end of the war, many of the Loyalists become refugees and have to seek a new place in the world. And the British swallow hard and say, okay, you were loyal. We do owe you something. You lost everything. And so a lot of ordinary people, meaning without a lot of resources, not from an elite background, end up in what's today Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, where the British offer them transportation, in part because the British want more bodies there. And it's easy to give them free land. And it benefits the British Empire to essentially stock it with native English speakers. They've taken over. There's a lot of French speakers and Catholics in this place. They've taken over. That becomes Canada, and they want to settle people. Of course, it's cold, there's a starvation the first winter there for these people who are settled. Another painful truth about that diaspora is the white Loyalists still don't accept the black Loyalists. And the black Loyalists in Nova Scotia have to found to their own town, free town, and they get the worst land grants. And the white Loyalists are always trying to take things away from them. The white Loyalists become wedded to the idea that they're going to make the United States sorry. Canada is going to become the example of how you really run a government according to constitutional principles. They're going to prove their loyalism. Others go to Jamaica, especially from the south. They just go to another slave society with plantations and start over in Jamaica. They are a thorn in the side of British governors everywhere they go. They may be loyal. They may have this theory about often in retrospect about constitutional principles and an Empire. But there are thorn in the side of every Royal governor everywhere they go, because at some level, they're too American to their liberties and they are vociferous. They shape Canadian politics for generations. And there's a way in which whatever they've gone through, in retrospect, their loyalty has to be over proven. And Canada considers that the American Revolution is really the story of the creation of two countries, the United States, but also Canada, that it sets Canada on a unique and different road, a road that's pro-immigrant. You take in refugees like the Loyalists, that they are good and valuable people, and that comes out of this loyalist history. A few loyalists go to London and they write pity letters about how expensive London is. It's always been expensive. But the fascinating thing that my own research has been about is that if we estimate at best there are about 500,000 loyalists, only somewhere between 30 and 60,000 of them leave at the end of the war.
Mary (40:08)
So they're staying.
Dr. Brannon (40:09)
So over 400,000 stay in the United States, the vast majority.
Mary (40:15)
So if the vast majority of them are staying in the newly independent...
Dr. Brannon (40:19)
The vast majority of them are staying in the nation created that they didn't necessarily support, and that's the fascinating question.
Mary (40:29)
Are they accepted by their neighbors? Is there a process of reconciliation, or does it just depend on where you are?
Dr. Brannon (40:38)
There is a process of reconciliation, and it's easiest to see in the records for more elite people, which is not shocking. That's often true for historians. And I did research in South Carolina specifically, and a lot of them apologize to their neighbors. These are really hard to find in the records, but you can find sort of the after-effects and their neighbors. So in South Carolina, the legislature strips their citizenship and all their property from many prominent Loyalists and some less prominent loyalists. At the end of the revolution, two years later, they give it back to most of them. And what makes them give it back is they get these petitions. And remember I said, signing things can get you in trouble in this world. So when people are willing to put their names to things, it carries weight because signing things get you into trouble in this world. What makes them successful is they put together these petitions from their neighbors who say so and so who was a Loyalist, but he wasn't an active Loyalist. He didn't actually harass us or do anything terrible, or we prevailed upon him to become head of the local Loyalist militias so that they didn't do anything. And then he's a really good neighbor and we trust him and like him, and we want you to allow them to keep their property and stay. I read so many of these in the South Carolina archives, and they would have anywhere from 18 signatories to over a hundred. And what convinces the legislature is essentially the hard work the Loyalists did to rebuild their community networks. That then becomes evidenced in the fact that at least 18 of their neighbors were willing to sign their names in support of them staying.
Mary (42:34)
That's really powerful. I don't think I could get 18 of my neighbors. I don't even know 18 of my neighbors to say I'm a good person and I didn't like support. I'm not out there supporting the other side.
Dr. Brannon (42:47)
I haven't done anything.
Mary (42:48)
So that's fascinating again. But I think that's a bright spot in this story, because certainly and we've talked about some unhappy truths of this story is that communities rebuild and they forgive. There are a couple of times in our conversation where I thought this sounds like reconstruction in a way.
Dr. Brannon (43:08)
They are reconstructing and we're not building a new nation out of nothing. We're building a new nation out of existing communities, existing networks. The Loyalists were not wrong when they said, Actually, there's a lot of political overlap here. They, too, believe in constitutional authority. They just believe the British Constitution is fine. The British claim to have the oldest unwritten Constitution in the world. So the United States has the oldest living written Constitution, but the British claim an even older Constitution. So the loyalists will say, it's not like there's not constitutionalism. It's not like there aren't protections for individuals in the system. We have. We have legislative authority. We have all these things. They're having a disagreement about kind and approach. But that's one thing that makes it possible. Another thing is just why get rid of a good neighbor? Americans decide that it's more important to build a thriving community than it is to punish. It takes them a while to get there. They kind of have to say mean things to each other and make apologies. And there's a certain amount of social ostracism.
Mary (44:31)
Yeah, I would imagine.
Dr. Brannon (44:32)
But it's gone quickly. It seems like people just need to get it out of their system. But then they make very prosaic pragmatic choices that it's better to make money together than to rip your society apart.
Mary (44:49)
I love that the phrase used, like thriving together. I think that's, in essence, I think that's what, of course, wearing my bias is an American who sitting in 2022. But to understand that we're all in this community together and we have more to it benefits all of us to cooperate and forgive and rebuild and move on and try to ensure that these ideas that we have on paper and we ratified and we signed them, that they really are true for everyone. And I think that's my optimistic take on American history and those who know me know that I'm not always the optimist. But on this, I'm decidedly an optimist. And I think that I just think knowing the story, the loyalism story is such an important piece of the puzzle of really appreciating the magnitude of the American Revolution and what it means.
Dr. Brannon (45:55)
I love me some American Revolution, and I do. For a while, I had trouble framing this project as I worked on it to other historians, because it is a tale of hope, and there's a lot of history that doesn't make us all that hope. History is full of humans. We do bad things. We do them again and again. But societies also value thriving. And what does it take to make a society thrive? There are all kinds of reconstructions or reintegrations that are a process. There's even a field of political science and international relations called transitional justice that tries to frame how it can work today. But this idea that through a series of steps that might not always be the same ones, you can move to a place of genuine functionality and inclusion, it's important. And that it comes out of our messy founding.
Mary (47:03)
We started the conversation. We were talking about this idea of decisions. Right. And it's a decision where who you're going to support or are you going to play size, you're going to try to remain neutral, and how complicated all of that could be. But I think this idea of hope that you said that's also a decision like you choose to see the good in the story and learn from the bad and keep going. And I think that's really powerful. We started by asking, was the American Revolution the first Civil War? Who were the Loyalists? Why don't we hear about them? And I don't know about you guys and talking to my listeners right now, but I have learned so much, and I'd love to hear what you think. Was this a Civil war? I think, Dr. Brannon, you convinced me that it absolutely was. But I'm open to hearing other points of view, other takeaways. You can always write to us at comments@fabricofhistory.org. Dr. Brannon, thank you so, so much for your time today. It was an absolute pleasure speaking with you and learning more about this important topic with you.
Dr. Brannon (48:14)
Thank you so much. I had a great time.
Mary (48:17)
Listeners, give us a review. Tell us what you want to hear. We'd love to hear your thoughts. We'd love to include you in our conversation. You can find us on all the social media channels, and we'll be back soon with more questions to explore. So until then, keep asking questions of your own. Take Care
Intro/Outro (48:34)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website mybri.org. Any questions or suggestions for future episodes. We'd love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and don't forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.