As Emma Watson says in the HBO special “Harry Potter 20th Anniversary: Return to Hogwarts,” “there’s something about Harry Potter that makes life richer.” In this episode of Fabric of History, Mary, Kirk, and Haley explore the meaning of this phrase and why Harry Potter has had such a lasting impact on so many people’s lives. What is it about the human themes set in a magical world that makes the series and the way we engage with it so unique?
View Our Episode Page for Additional Resources!
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/the-spell-of-a-good-story-harry-potters-magical-universe
As Emma Watson says in the HBO special “Harry Potter 20th Anniversary: Return to Hogwarts,” “there’s something about Harry Potter that makes life richer.” In this episode of Fabric of History, Mary, Kirk, and Haley explore the meaning of this phrase and why Harry Potter has had such a lasting impact on so many people’s lives. What is it about the human themes set in a magical world that makes the series and the way we engage with it so unique?
View Our Episode Page for Additional Resources!
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/the-spell-of-a-good-story-harry-potters-magical-universe
Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of History weaves together US history, founding principles, and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what's inside.
Haley (00:20)
As Emma Watson says in the HBO special Harry Potter 20th Anniversary: Return to Hogwarts, there's something about Harry Potter that makes life richer. In this episode of Fabric of History, Mary Kirk and I Haley explore the meaning of this phrase and why Harry Potter has had such a lasting impact on so many people's lives. What is it about the human themes set in a magical world that makes the series and the way we engage with it so unique?
Mary (00:52)
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Fabric of History. This is Mary Patterson, and I'm so glad that you've chosen to spend some time with us again today. I'm back with Haley Watson and Kirk Higgins, and I'm really glad they're with me again because they're going to have to rein me in as we talk about the magical world of Harry Potter. I am sure I love Harry Potter if it's not obvious from my voice. We're a history and civics podcast and we came to Harry from the angle that we come to all of our content, which is just this idea of a compelling story. And Harry Potter is such a good story. It transports you, it transports me to this magical, literal magical world, but it's also very relatable at the same time. And it really I think it just has this ability to suck you in. So yeah, I'm excited to talk Harry Potter with you guys.
Haley (01:56)
I am too. And my last name is Watson. I don't know that I'm related to Emma Watson, so I have no mapped out origins, but I do not know that I'm related to Emma Watson, so you never know. So I do have that connection.
Mary (02:13)
Yeah, I never even thought of that. But I bet you do because you have a cool family story. So I bet there's something I don't know. I bet there's a connection there.
Kirk (02:23)
I am not related to anyone in Harry Potter that I know of, but I do love this. I love this series, but more so I love compelling stories. Like you were mentioning, Mary. So I'm excited to talk about this series.
Mary (02:36)
So my story with Harry Potter begins in 2001. I have the actual date because my friends took me to see the first movie. That's when Harry Potter and the Sorcerer Stone the movie came out and I knew of Harry Potter, but I was like, eh, whatever. I just went with them. And at the end of that movie, I was hooked and I was like, oh, my gosh, what happens? And I was like asking them all these questions. They're like, why don't you just read the books? And I immediately bought I think there were only three books out at that time. And it was winter break, so I stayed up all night reading the Harry Potter books to know what happened. And then I was one of those people who was like waiting at the bookstore to get the book when it came out. And these were big hardcover books, especially towards the end. So to lug that thing around, I guess Kindles were around. But I'm like an old man as we've established on other podcasts. So I didn't have when I was reading the actual book. And yes, I had to know what happened. I was really into the story and this is a true story. I was reading the last book on the Metro. Commuting to work. This was before I worked at the Bill of Rights Institute, this massive book. And I read the part where Hedwig the owl dies, she's killed. And I just started sobbing on the Metro. And this was like a Metro pre-pandemic rush hour, just totally packed. And everyone was like, oh my God, are you okay? I was like, okay, I'm okay. It's just Harry Potter. And some of them were like, okay. And these are all working adults. So it was started as a kid's book, but it's not just for kids. And I think that's part of the magic of it.
Kirk (04:22)
Yeah, I love that because it gets at the emotion that gets drawn out of you when we get drawn into these stories, which I think is great. I'm of the generation that aged with Harry. So every year a book came out. I was the same age that Harry was in those books. And so I think it was unique for my age range within one or two years of us because it was such a cultural phenomenon and yet it was so related exactly to the people that we were at those times, which was great. And so I wish that meant that I had read the books as they came out, but it doesn't. But I remember being around it. My sister read all of them as they came out. I did not read them until much later in life when my wife told me that she would not marry me if I didn't finish reading all the Harry Potter books, which was an ultimatum I was happy to accede to, but she did so jokingly. But also, I think again, it's because it was such an important part of growing up as a kid during that age because the stories themselves were such a coming of age story and so many people can identify where they were when they read the books for the first time, just like you did, Mary. I had sort of a wooded backyard and I had a hammock in it. A couple of my friends came over and I woke up in the morning and they were in my backyard reading the last Harry Potter book uninvited. But it was like their place that they wanted to go to read it it's hilarious now, thinking back on it, but it's also just that kind of thing. Like it transports you. It takes you to another place. You become so invested in these characters and they were so well developed. And the way that the whole story wrapped up was so well done that it just became that cultural moment, I think, for so many people, which I think has a lot to do, too, with its staying power. It's now something that everybody knows. If you haven't read the Harry Potter books, you at least know who Harry Potter is or what generally it's about.
Haley (06:17)
Yeah, And even generations that didn't grow up with Harry Potter, like our production intern, Andrew. He wasn't the same age as Harry Potter or anything like that. He's a little bit younger, but he's telling me that his mom read him the book as a kid and he grew up with it, even though it came out a little bit before his time. So it has a lasting legacy, not just for the people who were immediately associated with it age-wise.
Mary (06:43)
Something that I appreciate is that just all of the detail in the story and how the author, she really just mapped out this entire world, I think from the beginning. And if you're introduced to a character or you're introduced to something, it's going to be significant later. And to me, I think that's just I don't know that I could do something like that, but I think that she is I'm not sure what the right word it would be to describe someone who can create a universe that has such appeal. But her story is not starting out. You never would have guessed that she was going to be incredibly rich and these books would do so well because that's not how her story begins.
Haley (07:31)
Just really looking at who JK Rowling was and where all these ideas came from. She really grew up with books. She said. When she was six years old, she wrote a book called Rabbit Rabbit, which was about a rabbit called Rabbit, who got the measles and was visited by his friends, including a giant Bee that she called Miss Bee. He can already see this kind of like fantasy playing out when she was super little. But she knew just from that experience at age six that she wanted to become a writer. And at age eleven, you can see her fantasy writing interests developing as she wrote a book about seven cursed diamonds and the stories of the people that own them. Even at this young age, you're seeing this interest in fantasy. I don't know how complex the story was, but just stories of people owning something with magical powers. But growing up, our parents never received a college education, so she was the first in her family to graduate from college, and she graduated from the University of Exeter. She studied French and the classics, and notably, she studied Latin and you can see how this Latin background played into her writing and incorporating spells with Latin origins. But after graduating, she kind of jumped around jobs. She worked at the research desk for Amnesty International for a little bit, but she said from this experience, she learned that she was just too disorganized to work at an office. She said she was never paying much attention in meetings because she was always writing and working on her writing craft on bits of paper. I see that theme throughout her life. She's always writing on bits of paper, so always thinking about character names and storylines. Then at age 26, she moved to Portugal, got married, and taught English there. But her marriage was short-lived. And this leads her coming back to England, having a hard time relying on the government at a point for a living. So she had some tough years, but she always had this idea of becoming a writer. And she had the idea for the Harry Potter series while she was delayed on a train traveling from Manchester to London Kings Cross in 1990. So it's interesting that she thought of this on the train. The train is very essential, I feel, to Harry Potter. It's how Harry first comes to Hogwarts on a train. So there is that theme throughout the books that I think is interesting. But it took her five years to plan out the seven books of the series. Again, she's writing mostly in long hand on scraps of paper napkins. She had a cafe that she frequented that she credits for giving her the inspiration, the creative space to write these books. But she wrote three chapters of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, put it in a suitcase, and started sending it to different publishers. And she was rejected dozens of times before finally being accepted by Bloomsbury Publishing. And this is still her publishing house today. But the books themselves have broken many records. As everyone probably knows, it's one of the most successful series ever published in 80 languages, has over 500 million copies sold across the world, and now has companion volumes that JK Rowling has written since the original seven volumes. I know that's a lot, but that's my overview. I think it was just important to talk about where JK Rowling came from. And you can see some themes from her life that later get put into her books.
Mary (11:17)
Yeah, I love that the stories are in 80 languages. I think that speaks to how it's appeal. Like it's not just British people who like these books, but, oh, that's so cool. Her story. I think she is a storyteller. She has this world mapped out and she persevered in trying to get her story out there, and then it's just celebrated by so many people once it's out there, that her story is really cool in and of itself, even though we're focusing on Harry. And I know that Harry's birthday is her birthday in the books and the books always start with Harry at his birthday and what a new year and a new chapter in his life is going to be. So it's fun to think of the overlaps that she weaves into the tale.
Mary (12:12)
I think part of the magic of the Harry Potter story that JK Rowling creates is that, like I said before, it's an escape from reality, right. This is a world of witches and Wizards and Muggles and all this alternate universe that's sort of running parallel to our world, but it's also very relatable to our real world. Like the characters just within the friendships between Harry and his best friends, Ron and Hermione, and sort of the struggles with just growing up, like trying to fit in with your friends or feeling left out. Like Harry doesn't have a family to go home to on Christmas. He feels left out and Ron and Hermione like each other but won't act on it. Everybody can relate to that story as you're growing up, and just the interactions amongst the kids are pretty universal. Apart from the whole magical piece that are having a scary teacher like Snape is scary, and he's meant to come across as scary, but he ends up being really good in the end. So I think there are a lot of pieces just in the characters themselves that appeal are relatable. It's relatable to be in school, to have struggles with your friends, to have struggles with your teachers, to struggle to do your homework, to want to make the team. So there's all of that. But then there's this magical piece of it too, that there's this dark forces afloat. And how are these kids going to make the difference in writing everything?
Kirk (13:51)
Yeah. I think it's that shared human experience of growing up and of the unknown and sort of going into learning about those kinds of things that I think is cool. And I think the magic kind of represents that in a certain way. Right. Like all of the things that they are learning are totally unknown both to the reader and to the student. And it's cool to see them going through these different experiences of learning different potions from Snape and how horribly it goes. And even though that's not the context that we all live in, I know for sure when I was going through chemistry class, that was certainly a feeling that I had and mixing things incorrectly and doing things wrongly. Of course, the negative side of it was not as exciting as they can be for Harry and not as exciting. Right. Of getting, I'll lean on you here, Mary. He gets the potion that makes him feel like a million Bucks that he gives to Ron.
Mary (14:46)
Oh, the Felix something. It's her Latin, but I can't think of the other term.
Kirk (14:51)
Yeah. And I think it's that kind of shared experience that is really cool about Harry Potter and just about stories generally. Are well-told stories, I think are able to do that and invite us into that kind of shared human experience.
Haley (15:03)
And I think the fact that it wasn't just one book, it was seven, and it took place across Harry's life and Ron in her mind since they were aging too, it really allowed the reader to get to know them in a unique way. Whereas if it was just one book when Harry was ten or one book when Harry was 16, we wouldn't know him that well. We wouldn't have felt as close to him going through all these real-life struggles.
Mary (15:28)
The other thing that I think makes this series and the stories so why they have such a hold on us is because it is a series and as they get older and you progress in the series, it gets more complicated and often darker and you start to see characters that you initially wrote off as bad, like Snape or Draco, even having another side to them. Of course, Snape, of course, is the ultimate he's one of the biggest heroes of the story because he's keeping his true intentions of helping Harry from Baltimore and which I think is amazing. This is where my nerd side is going to come out because how was he able to do that? For him to do that, he had to be as powerful wizard as Dumbledore because Voldemort was like, anyway, that's a rabbit hole we don't need to go down.
Haley (16:22)
You shouldn't have sprung that on us, Mary. That's too much. I need a preparation for that question.
Mary (16:26)
I'm sorry. I know that's like a super nerd question. Even Malfoy, because he has under such pressure to live up to his father's expectations and he starts to snap under it and it's Draco's mom in the end that helps Harry out by saying, oh, he's dead. And that allows, you know, the big climactic scene to happen in the very end. So it's not just black and white, although there's definitely themes of good and evil, but you can see these characters being there's more depth to them. And even Harry, they're teenagers, so they're whiny and annoying at times. You're like, what's the matter with you? You just kind of want to shake them. But I think that's also part of the relatable piece as well because we're not just one-dimensional for sure.
Kirk (17:21)
That fifth book was rough with Harry and being a teenager again, well-developed characters in well-written stories make you they sort of pull emotions out of you in response to what the character is doing. And I think that's a testament to how well constructed that character was.
Haley (17:46)
Harry grappling with death really, because he was faced with that the very beginning of his life. Both his parents were killed. Voldemort wasn't able to kill him, so he's always been able to see, why didn't I die? Will I die if I fight Voldemort? Can Voldemort kill me? Can I kill him? So there's always this element of death that he's constantly dealing with and also immortality through death. Is that possible? And he does die, right, Harry, there's that sequence where he's in heaven with Dumbledore.
Mary (18:19)
Well, I don't know what that place is. It's never named.
Haley (18:23)
Wasn't it white?
Mary (18:25)
Yeah, it was all white. And he said it looked like the train station and that makes Dumbledore laugh.
Haley (18:31)
But yeah, again, see the train?
Mary (18:33)
JK Rowling read the book on the train.
Haley (18:35)
Yeah, but yeah, circling back to the beginning. They're also saying JK was saying that through love, Harry learns that he can conquer death because even though he might have died in this strange sequence, we're not going to label it as death, but something like death. We felt like he was dead through sacrificing his life or his friends, just like his mom sacrificed her life for him, he's able to be reborn.
Mary (19:00)
Yes, that's really weighty stuff. So if you read the first book, it's almost like The Wizard of Oz right? There's all this sort of magicalness and they're playing chess like a giant chess set. And it's definitely seemingly lighter on the surface. But you're right, that theme of trying to conquer death is what Voldemort is all about. He doesn't want to die, so he gets deeper and deeper into this dark magic. But maybe that's part of the appeal as well is that you could read it just because it's the story of these three kids who do something magical and the story kind of ends nicely with a bow if you're just thinking about the first book. But you can also really see these timeless themes, right. These ideas of love and death and sacrifice and a hero or things that come up in stories across time.
Kirk (19:56)
For me, it comes back to trying to understand more of what it means to just be a human being and live a life and the challenges that we overcome. And we learn about that through lots of different mediums. So thinking about early histories, you have people like Plutarch who write his Greek lives, and those are about looking at the lives of other individuals and seeing what lessons can be gleaned from them. In the Christian tradition, looking at the Bible, there's often stories that are told through parables, and parables are sort of metaphorical stories that provide a lesson story is so ingrained in how we communicate with one another and talk about some of these heavy things because they are bigger than any of us comprehend. I mean, to sit down and read a book about death, right, would be super intimidating. Even thinking about it is a daunting task, but reading about it and touching on it and thinking about it and contemplating on it through the Avenue of a story, it becomes something different and it becomes accessible in a way that I think would be more difficult if you were just treating the topic head-on.
Haley (21:03)
And these were written, I won't say for kids only, but I know a lot of kids who read them with me. But I think for many kids, the first time they were learning about these themes on such a big level, and because it was such an immersive universe, we were kind of faced with them in a sense, even if we didn't really realize it until later. But at the beginning, right at book one, Harry's parents died right off the bat. And that's how you start the series. And I think that's a really unique approach. And it was the first time a lot of children learned about bigger themes like love and friendship as they were going through their own struggles in life. But yeah, I think it definitely had a bigger impact than if JK Rowling wrote, hey, we're all scared of death. You should try to transcend it and think about life after death. Like she could have just said that. But yeah, definitely more impactful with the story behind it.
Mary (22:01)
Just kind of going back to what you were saying, Kirk, about humans being a storytelling animal and wanting to hear stories to learn. And that's history. And what's really neat about the Harry Potter world. And again, another angle of it is there's a lot of pseudo history in the books, too, like this interest in magic and this interest in sort of the beyond is something that has a deep history in the human experience, too. And there's even an exhibit I went to, it was in New York about the history of magic. And it just talked about how, like, for instance, for example, the Phoenix figure, like this mythical bird that dies and is reborn in the fire. But that's something that JK Rowling didn't invent that's something that's been around for a really long time or the idea of werewolves or the idea of witches or something. These stories are present throughout history and people have been fascinated by it. And I think she tapped into that in a way that's not hokey. Or maybe it is hokey. I don't know. There's all these sort of little details in her world that maybe you could say are silly, but I like it.
Haley (23:17)
I don't think they're silly at all because like I said, it all makes sense. They all fit into a bigger picture. It wasn't just random. Even with Buckbeak, I don't know what kind of a creature you'd call him a bird monster.
Mary (23:31)
He was a hip, now what was he, a Hippogriff?
Haley (23:34)
I know you're just going to correct me, Mary, but yeah, even with him, there was a bigger story of learning how to treat animals correctly, and that Draco was assaulted by the Hippogriff because he wasn't respectful. So there's all these stories of learning to be a good person, respectful person, get along with nature. I feel like nature is kind of a theme, too, like the way that Hagrid's Hut is kind of in the woods behind Hogwarts and then the whole spider story with Ron and overcoming his fear of spiders. So, yeah, there are a lot of different themes. It's not just one thing.
Kirk (24:16)
Yeah, no, I think about two Sirius Black, right and wrongful accusations and sort of justice going awry. Those are heavy topics. And again, I think it's exploring a world that's imperfect, but there's this fantastical element to it that people want to escape to. I think about CS Lewis, who also famously has the Chronicles in Narnia series. He thought a lot about fantasy and talked a lot about what kinds of ancient myths, especially British myths, in kind of what they represented. But thinking about things like fairies or thinking about things like these things that lived in the woods or live in nature that are apart from who we are that exist sort of outside of us, but we want this world to exist. And are Dragons real or are they not real? It's an interesting human beings continue to come up with these different elements that are magical and fantastical, but again, they are ways of accessing and talking about, and sharing common experiences in a way that sometimes our normal language or our normal understandings fail to be able to do that. And yet in these kinds of stories, you have an opportunity to explore them.
Haley (25:28)
I feel like because things were so fantastical, it was easy to get kids attention. Like we said, we just talked about death. We just talked about love, respect in boring terms as an example, like going to school and being nice to your teacher. That wouldn't have the effect of writing a Hippogriff or playing Quidditch because it was so fun. You could learn these things and you wouldn't think you were learning.
Kirk (25:52)
For sure. No, that was one of the ways that I got into history because I was reading more fantastical books. And then suddenly I was like, wait a second, there was a period in history when there were nights in shining armor and castles and things, and I can read about that too, and learn about it.
Haley (26:09)
And it actually happened.
Kirk (26:11)
Yeah, exactly. You can tell I was a fun kid at parties, but.
Mary (26:18)
I feel like this is a good place for me to air one of my grievances with the Harry Potter series, which I've always had, and that even before I was a history teacher, was that there is a subject, the history of magic that they have to take, and it's taught by a ghost, and he just reads the book to them and it's so boring. And they all hate that class, which is kind of ironic because he's trying to, I don't know, teach them stories.
Haley (26:44)
Is that nearly headless Nick.?
Mary (26:46)
No, I don't remember the name of the ghost, but yeah, the ghost taught that class, and it was always really boring. And I was like, man, that's not fair. I just remember being mad. Like, why does that have to be the class that is getting some shade through done it right? But yeah, history done right is our good stories are stories that capture, they capture our hearts. They make us think. But the point is for me, these are their stories. They resonate. It's something that you can pass on to someone like Andrew. Our intern said his mom read the stories to him. I am planning to read Harry Potter to my son when he gets a little bit older. He's too young right now, but, I think that's part of the staying power.
Kirk (27:37)
Yeah. Especially I think when it comes to and this is something we think about a lot at the Bill of Rights Institute, teaching virtues, right. Or good habits, acting in a way that is more conducive to living with other people and can help sort of bring people together. And you think about like, Harry multiple times. Perseverance is a huge theme. Courage is a huge theme. Responsibility is a huge theme. I mean, all of these things all weigh down on Harry. And sometimes as a kid, I think I remember reading and thinking, oh, wow, this is just unfair. And as an adult, I'm thinking, man, how could they put so much responsibility on them? Or how hard must it have been for 15-16-year-old Harry to have to go through this and to try to grapple with snaps, double-crossing, and betrayal? I think telling stories is a great way to talk about those virtues and the ways that can help people better understand the powerful effects that come from following along these things. It takes some discipline, it takes some thinking about. It takes some courage to actually live out. And exploring that through story is a powerful way to do so.
Mary (28:46)
It's nice to hear about people doing extraordinary things because we're around ordinary stuff all the time and it can be interesting. But sometimes you need some inspiration. And even if it's in another world, a magical world.
Haley (29:00)
Well, is it, though? Are we just Muggles and we don't know about the magic going on around us?
Mary (29:05)
Plus, that's just such a fun word to say. Muggle. It's so cute. I love it. We've covered a lot of ground here. We've talked about the appeal of Harry Potter's world, the fun of the magic and Muggles and Quidditch, but also heavy themes of death, of love, of redemption, of having courage, and acting responsibly. So I think you can take so many things from the story if it's just a quick, fun beach read or if it's in a way to explore some heavier and timeless human questions. And as always, I'd love to know what you, our readers think. Are you a fan of Harry Potter? What's your go-to fantasy story? Why does it appeal to you? What should we discuss next? We're always open to your thoughts and your suggestions. You can always write to us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and we'd love to hear from you. You can find us on all the social media channels. We'd love to hear from you. Tell your friends, tell your family about us. We'd love to include them in our conversation as well. Kirk Haley, thank you for indulging my love of Harry Potter during this conversation. It's always a pleasure to chat with you both and to our listeners out there. Keep asking questions.
Intro/Outro (30:33)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website mybri.org. Any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We'd love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and don't forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.