The Life and Legacy of Theodore Roosevelt

Although Theodore Roosevelt’s energetic personality is remembered today by most Americans as almost larger than life, who really was Roosevelt the person, not the legend? In our last episode of Season 5, Mary and Kirk are joined by Tony Williams, BRI Senior Teaching Fellow, to explore Roosevelt’s personal and professional life and what it is about him that continues to fascinate us today. How did Roosevelt overcome the death of both his wife and daughter by traveling west? What is his legacy of American imperialism that still exists today?

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 Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of History weaves together US history, founding principles, and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what's inside.

Haley (00:21)
Although Theodore Roosevelt's energetic personality is remembered today by most Americans as almost larger than life, who really was Roosevelt the person, not the legend? In our last episode of season five, Mary and Kirk are joined by Tony Williams, senior teaching fellow, to explore Roosevelt's personal and professional life and what it is about him that continues to fascinate us today. How did Roosevelt overcome the death of both his wife and daughter by traveling west? What is his legacy of American imperialism that still exists today?

Mary (01:01)
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to The Fabric of History. This is Mary Patterson, and as always, I am so grateful that you're back with us for another conversation that explores compelling stories in history and civics. Haley Watson is just wearing her producer hat today, but Kirk Higgins is with me again today. Hey, Kirk.

Kirk (01:22)
Hey, Mary. How are you doing?

Mary (01:23)
I'm doing okay. Well, I'm a little sad. It's a little bittersweet for us today because The Fabric of History is going to go on a hiatus after this episode. But the sweet part is that we have brought in a special guest for our conversation today. Tony Williams is the senior fellow here at the Bill of Rights Institute and the cold beating heart of the content that we produce here for teachers and students. So he keeps us all on track with his reason and his deep knowledge of all things history. Tony, thank you for joining Kirk and I today.

Tony (01:59)
Thank you. Mary. I think...

Mary (02:04)
Well, I didn't want to just say the beating heart because I didn't know if that was too touchy-feely for you, so I put cold in front of it, but it's meant as a compliment.

Tony (02:12)
Thank you.

Mary (02:13)
It's meant as a compliment of the highest order. So we're talking about a President today that looms large in our history, Theodore Roosevelt. As I was thinking about Theodore Roosevelt, I think my first association with him is literally looming large. I think of him in Mount Rushmore where his giant face with his amazing glasses is just carved into the granite with Washington and Jefferson and Lincoln. So he's a memorable character.

Kirk (02:45)
He certainly is. Theodore Roosevelt is one of those figures from American history that looms large. And I think the amazing thing is the more you dig into his life, the larger he becomes as a figure. I mean, he's just a really incredible person. And not only is his life incredible in the sense that it's unique in a lot of ways. He's very much an energetic person, but also that personality carried over and shaped the history of our nation in some pretty important and interesting ways, I think.

Mary (03:17)
Yeah, Kirk, his life story in and of itself is a really fascinating one. And I think he's living at a really fascinating time in American history. And then there's the whole political side of his story and how he shapes the presidency and what he does as President. And there's just so many different threads that we could explore. But I think maybe just starting at the beginning is probably a very good place to start. He's born in 1858. He's a New Yorker. He's born into a successful family. He actually witnessed I thought this was really interesting. He witnessed the funeral procession of Abraham Lincoln at age six in New York City. So again, just to think about what impressions that must have made on a six-year-old boy, this is kind of an interesting thought. And then he was actually a really sick child, which is sad if you think about this time period. It's especially dangerous for children. And he had asthma, and he just wasn't a very robust, strong child. But this is I think the first part of his story that's really fascinating to me is that he basically wills himself into combating these physical ailments.

Mary (04:35)
He takes up weightlifting, gymnastics to make himself stronger. And I think that's really remarkable. I mean, how many people, even in today's society with all the advances that we have, can do something like that successfully? So I think that already shows the sort of strength of character and the force of his personality and just sort of willing himself to overcome sort of the hand that he's been dealt.

Tony (05:02)
Yeah. Mary, he comes from a very wealthy family, a family of some privilege. He is taking grand tours in Europe for months at a time and collecting his scientific specimens, which he like to do along the way. He goes to he has tutor, private tutors in the home, and eventually makes his way off to Harvard. And so he definitely comes from privilege. But he was really invested by his father, especially by his mother and father, in a sense of no blessed bleach. Right. They adopted the philanthropic sense of duty that came with wealth. And while that wealth allowed Teddy Roosevelt to live a life of privilege, it also allowed him to engage in public service throughout most of his life. And so he saw a strong duty, both personally and later on as a statesman to the service of the community of the nation. To those who are less fortunate in the sort of burgeoning industrial society in which she lived. Yes, privilege, but one also of a very strong sense of duty to others.

Kirk (06:40)
I think, Tony, and hearing you talked about him collecting science specimens, I also know he wrote a book just coming out of College on The Naval War of 1812. So looking at the War of 1812 and sort of doing an analysis of the naval technology that was available and the role of the Navy in that conflict. And to me, you see those early signs of an individual who just has a tireless energy for work, someone who is curious about the world around them, someone who is excited to engage in new projects and sort of that relentless energy that becomes the driving force, I think of his life constantly in motion, constantly finding things to do and combining that with that desire to work on behalf of the community. I mean, there you have kind of the archetype of the public servant, right. Someone who's going to come in and do what they think is right for the community.

Mary (07:39)
I've always loved biographies of interesting people. So I love talking about Theodore Roosevelt. And it's also really humbling in a way because I'm like, man. He was writing a book on the Naval War of 1812 right after College, and I was like looking for an apartment. I don't consider myself a schlub, but it's really amazing when you think about what some of these characters did. And I want to go before we go into his sense of duty and his energy and everything that he brings into being a public servant. I do think there's another episode in his personal life that I also find really interesting and heartbreaking. And that's when his wife, who he meets at Harvard and his daughter died within two days of each other and just sort of the heartbreak and the tragedy of what that must have been. And he leaves after that, he leaves his little girl with his sister and goes to the Dakota Badlands. And he's basically like living this strenuous, ranching, pioneer-esque life to sort of rejuvenate himself in a way, because when he comes back to New York, he starts over in a way he will eventually remarry, he will have more children. And he also enters the political arena. But again, I think that's really sort of a testament to his will and his energy to experience that loss and to come back from it not broken, but ready to move on into dare, mighty things, as he would say.

Tony (09:19)
Yeah, you know, he goes out west, he buys some ranches. He's hunting for grizzly. He's eventually a Sheriff out there kind of hunting down some brigands. He's just a ball of energy. And some might say he sort of left the East Coast to kind of forget about it and maybe not deal with his pain. And he does seem to find some kind of solace out west and really develops a profound love in the Badlands of the west and of the people of the west. And you'll see this later on with his love of his compatriots the Rough Riders in the Spanish American War and his love of nature in the west. And so how he then starts several national parks out west. And so develops that strong and profound love of the west. Also writes some books about the west, The Winning of the West. Right. It's a book that is somewhat simplistic and has certain biases about the west and how it shaped American character. And yet for him, it was not only a theoretical thing but also a lived thing as this sort of wealthy guy from the east goes out west and tries to sort of make his way as a would-be cowboy or dude. So it's a great story.

Mary (10:56)
I didn't realize he was a Sheriff while he was out there. That just makes him even cooler to me.

Tony (11:01)
And he's not accepted immediately out west. And yet eventually in time, because he's sharing the same hardships and he's not just a weekend warrior, they see that he's kind of the real thing. And so some of the real Cowboys out there sort of develop an affinity for him.

Mary (11:21)
I'm thinking of the movie City Slickers as you're talking, but yeah, as someone who has spent her life on the East Coast, I know just for me personally, going out west, my husband's always been big on going west and visiting national parks in particular. So it really is beyond it's sort of beyond words in a lot of cases. So I can understand the appeal of it. And maybe that's why that's another reason why I like him is that I definitely appreciate the appreciation for the land and conservation.

Kirk (11:55)
I think, though, too, as we're thinking about why is it that Theodore Roosevelt is so remembered? I mean, amongst all the presidents, he's usually one that's on the tip of people's tongues. And I think one of those reasons is because he epitomized this period in American history in a lot of ways. In the wake of the Civil War, the nation begins expanding west. That's a large part of sort of the public consciousness that people are thinking about, sort of Western opportunities, what that means, sort of they think about it in certain ways that embodied for many the American spirit, this idea of manifest destiny, of going west and of taming what they saw as uncivilized lands. And of course, today we look at that story as a lot more complicated. But for the characters of that time, thinking about that context, Theodore Roosevelt epitomizes that sort of Western ruggedness, even though he's an Easterner, that spirit of individualism that was seen as the thing that was expanding American civilization west, he's sort of in interesting ways, the embodiment of Frederick Jackson Turner's frontier thesis, thinking about like, wow, the frontier is the place where you go and you make yourself. And on top of all that, there's this manliness that's embodied in him. Right. This idea that you are this tough and rugged individual going out and conquering these things in the name of the United States. Right. And again, today we know that story to be much more complicated than that. But for someone that embodies, that what was sort of the archetypical idea of America at the time for a politician to enter the stage, that is that in a lot of ways I think just cemented his personality and his popularity with the nation.

Tony (13:39)
Yeah, that manliness you mentioned, he does embody that right. Hunting his time out west, his other trips in Brazil to the river of Doubt, and also his exploits in the Spanish American War. He's just a ball of energy. But more than that, we see him as very very manly and he promoted himself as such. And there was a growing sense in American society at the time that Roosevelt was actually very concerned about that as we sort of became a middle-class society, a lot of professionals that we were becoming consumers rather than producers and farmers and so forth. The higher stages of civilization, if you will, were making men weak, that they were more feat, even Roosevelt thought. And so he talked frequently of trying to sort of restore that rugged individualism and that manliness before we became in this advanced industrial society a little too soft. And so he was very concerned about it and certainly embodied it in a lot of ways. As Kirk said, one of the reasons.

Mary (15:07)
He's so memorable, of course, is because he serves as President Pivot. And I think how he actually becomes President is an interesting story in and of itself. He's not elected President. He actually becomes President because William McKinley is assassinated and he's very young at the time. He's 42 at the start of his presidency. Again, very humbling side note, but maybe talk a little bit about why was he even chosen as a vice-presidential candidate like they're always chosen for a reason. So what was so appealing about him and then what defines him as President in his own right?

Tony (15:49)
Well, let's not forget he was a recent war hero, and certainly, both he and his friends and the books that he wrote about his exploits all were pushing him and his Fame in national newspapers and journals and that kind of thing. So he was not above a little self-promotion, you might say, and he had been Assistant Secretary of the Navy and then actually raised a Regiment the refrigerators and went to war and became renowned in that war. He then rode his popularity into actually becoming governor, and he was a pretty popular, controversial New York governor who was put in office essentially by the political machine. But then he sort of broke away from the machine and became his own man with supporting a lot of different sort of progressive, state progressive reforms such as regulation of hours and ownership of public utilities and that kind of thing. There's some sense which I think is true, that Platt and the others were tired of having him in New York and kind of worked with the national leadership and the Republican Party to kind of push him upstairs, if you will, into what they thought was a harmless political office. The vice presidency, right until this anarchist shot McKinley, who, by the way, was not that excited about having Roosevelt on the ticket. He was very hesitant to have him on because he was sort of a firebrand and you didn't necessarily know what he was going to do next as he approved in the Spanish-American war when he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy. And the Secretary of Navy was sort of out of town, and he just sent the Pacific Fleet to Manila to go to war against Spain, which was later endorsed by the Secretary of the Navy. But he was impetuous and they were concerned. And then next thing you know, after that assassin's bullet killed McKinley, he's President of the United States.

Mary (18:13)
There's a lot to unpack and everything that you just said there. First of all, I love the phrase being pushed upstairs. I love that. And I guess I didn't appreciate that or wasn't familiar with that part of his story that was really seen as if we get this guy into the vice presidency, you won't have to deal with him anymore. I think that's really funny. And again, this office of the vice presidency is really interesting. Side note, maybe that's another conversation, but he's the President, and I wonder what the New York political machine thought to themselves when they found that out. That's kind of a funny, like, oh, crap moment. Maybe they had I'm just imagining it again. I always have visuals that come to mind when I think of Theodore Roosevelt. I think I may have already called him Teddy, which I know he did not like, but I think of his tense knee glasses, which are amazing and need to come back. They probably have come back. There must be hipsters wearing them somewhere at this very second. But as someone who's worn glasses since like the age of seven, I appreciate someone who can really pull off a cool pair of specs.

Mary (19:28)
But another image, two images actually that come to mind when I think of Theodore Roosevelt is I think of him in his like that white suit and he's in some sort of like Digger or some big machine with the Panama Canal. And I know that's a big part of what he does as President. And again, I think that's the story that we take for granted. We know a little bit about the Panama Canal, but not really, but it's hugely important. It's a huge game-changer, really, in world history. So what's his story with the Panama Canal?

Tony (20:06)
He's exercising the diplomatic and foreign policy powers of the office very strongly in a very muscular way. America had just sort of entered the world stage in terms of global power. We've just been victorious in the Spanish American War. And so using that newfound power not only to take an equal place on the world stage but also really enforce sort of the dictates of the Monroe Doctrine, which was essentially Europe should stay out of the Western hemisphere and America is predominant there. Well, you certainly does that in Cuba, which we can talk about. But, you know, with the Panama Canal Roosevelt pushing, we have the Hay Pond support treaty, and America sort of gets predominance over a canal in Colombia, and Columbia kind of balks at the treaty. And so Roosevelt just starts a revolution in Panama. It's really pretty incredible. And as soon as these rebels sort of break off and declare their own country established, he extends diplomatic recognition to it, and Panama will obviously give the United States favorable rights to the Canal. This is pretty incredible. He's not afraid of exercising American authority in the Western Hemisphere and using it for the good of the United States. Now having a two-ocean Navy on being able to get over to the Pacific to sort of challenge rising Japanese power. All these trends are extremely important over the course of the early to mid 20th century, and we can think about sort of the effects later on with World War Two, but then also American trade around the globe and so forth. I mean, these are huge consequences to what is essentially pushing countries around. It's an interesting exercise of American power and one that other presidents will imitate. The darker side of American foreign policy, though at the time was certainly imperialist, sort of racial imperialism that was rooted in the social Darwinianism of the day. And it's a belief to which Roosevelt subscribed that he said repeat. He talked about the Anglo-Saxon races repeatedly, sort of in the words of Kipling, sort of the white man's duty to civilize the world. And he had imbibed this at Harvard and in the larger society, the larger culture, because these social Darwinist ideas sort of ranking of the races throughout the world. It was really among the most advanced science of the day. Right. And it was related to social Darwinism and Eugenics and so forth. The foreign policy certainly has its darker side, and this will influence American foreign relations during his presidency with places like Cuba like the Philippines, and Panama Canal, and so forth. It's part and parcel, I think, of larger social trends, but definitely sort of the darker side. But at the time, it was seen as no less sort of progressive. It was embraced by many Progressives and was seen as the most advanced science of the day.

Mary (24:44)
Sounds like controversial, right. So he's starting this revolution in Panama to get favorable conditions for the Canal. He's really exercising the power of the executive in a way that hadn't been done before. And he's elected on his own terms. He's going to finish McKinley's term, but then he's elected in his own right. So I have to wonder, was he popular with the people? Did Congress push back on him, or do we not hear as much about that today and we're just focusing on him? So what are your thoughts there?

Kirk (25:13)
What Teddy Roosevelt goes about doing in his presidency is novel in the sense that he really brings today kind of what we would call the cult of personality to that office. I mean, previously there were presidents. Andrew Jackson comes to mind. Right. That embodied a spirit of the office in a way that their charisma and their story is what really carries their popularity in a lot of ways. But Theodore Roosevelt is the first time that not only is that cult personality but also what he chooses to do with the office is novel. I mean, it's bringing the government, the national government, to bear on issues in society in a way that it hadn't been explicitly done up to that point. There had been sort of other things that had happened, lots of acts and things, especially in the 1870s, 1880s, 1890s. But for the government to come in now and be this sort of Titan that is sort of standing across the nation in a way where it's directing sort of what's happening, and everybody is looking to the national government to solve these big problems or to advance the profile of the United States and the world is really a new thing that Theodore Roosevelt is bringing in that office. And again, I think it reflects who he was, too, in a lot of ways.

Tony (26:35)
Well, I think that broadly I think we should talk about and we'll probably with domestic policy a little bit, but he had a stewardship view of the presidency, which basically meant as President, he could do whatever he wanted unless strictly forbidden by the Constitution. He exercised expansive powers of the office, both domestically, which we'll get to, and also, as we're talking about, with foreign policy. And by and large, these were popular moves because the outcomes are sort of favorable to America. They were, by and large, popular. They were various groups, the Anti Imperialist League and so forth, questioning the American war against the Filipinos after the Americans took over the Philippines in 1898. And so there is controversy. Not everyone supports this kind of muscular expression of the American Empire. And by the way, they are concerned, actually about the People in those countries. Americans are talking about how the Filipinos and Cubans and others are entitled to natural rights and to the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. And so they're very critical of American foreign policy based upon American ideals and principles, which I think is fascinating. Having said that, though, a lot of these moves are by and large, very popular, and he just moves forward. And this brings me to a quick point, and then I'll let Mary or Kirk jump back in, is that he's appealing to the people directly. He becomes sort of a rhetorical presidency, in the word of some political scientists, fixes his policies, whether domestic or foreign, directly sort of over the heads of Congress, the other branches, and wants to become a popular President, you know, through his bully pulpit, through his rhetoric, through his actions. And so he's actually much more concerned sort of maybe about what the American people think and what the newspapers say than members of Congress, for example. And that's going to be a huge shift in the presidency during the course of the 20th century, sort of the President as a national leader, as a rhetorical leader, as the person commanding the bully pulpit, all very important sort of milestones, if you will, and not uncontroversial even today.

Kirk (29:35)
Just to draw a line underneath that, because I think that's kind of what I was alluding to before that he really marks a change in the way that this office is held and how people look to it. I've always found it fascinating. Sometimes it's something that gets overlooked. But presidents didn't campaign for office. The typical campaign for a President was someone comes and knocks on your door and says, hey, the party would like to nominate you for the office, and you say, great, I will accept that nomination. And then it would just be you hanging out on your front porch as people around the country gave speeches on your behalf and said how great of a person you were. That's not Teddy Roosevelt's approach. But I think that just goes to show I mean, that's just one story or one way of looking at it. There's a lot of other examples, but it just shows that this idea that a President would not only campaign for office, which Theodore Roosevelt did, but that he welcomed that popularity. I mean, the reason that that was kind of the ideal was that it wasn't this what Tony just referred to as stewardship presidency. It was that you were there as the executive to enforce the laws, and you were political insofar as you represented a political party in certain policies and you gave speeches and had opinions, but you weren't trying to win over public opinion in the same way that Theodore Roosevelt now is projecting and bringing forward. And Tony, I don't know if that teaches you have to talk a little bit about his domestic policies, but like trustbusting, I know is one where Theodore Roosevelt is really seen as the warrior on behalf of the American people against these monopolistic practices that he's the one that's fighting to preserve their Liberty from this dominant industrial machine against which individuals would have no defense otherwise.

Tony (31:24)
Right. And he does. He's seen as a trustbuster, even though, as we know, William Howard Taft will prosecute under the law and the Constitution, many more trusts than Roosevelt did. But his reputation was seen as a trustbuster, as you said, acting on behalf of the American people, most notably in the Northern securities case where they broke up Morgan's Railroad. But in many ways, he's much more of a regulatory President. Right. He really helps to establish he and Congress establish many sort of new regulatory agencies that will regulate in the public good in the name of the public and their welfare, regulate corporations regularly, especially the railroads, and tell them they make rebates illegal. And even to the extent of setting rates right under the Hepburn Act, the ICC is actually regulating interjecting itself into the private market to try to make some sense of this very cutthroat competition among the railroads. He's a guy who sort of distinguishes more holistically between the good and bad trusts and so forth. But rather than necessarily break them up, as his reputation might suggest, he was much more interested in establishing the federal government as an administrative state, as a regulatory state.

Mary (33:08)
Tony, you and Kirk have both brought up really interesting reasons why Theodore Roosevelt is such a really watershed in the American presidency. Just with just thinking about the President and the role of the President and how the role of the government and what its reach into everyday life is changing. There's so much more that we could talk about. But I think one of the interesting things to me about Theodore Roosevelt is that when he leaves the office of the presidency, he sort of has his Lieutenant, William Howard Taft, in line to sort of continue his work, his vision, and he becomes so frustrated that Taft isn't doing what he wants him to do that he's going to run again for President under his own party, under the Bull Moose Party. And I think the name comes from he said he was as fit as a Bull Moose when questioned by reporters, and that's where the name comes from. But I think that is really indicative of not only his sort of personal energy and drive but the changes that he brought to bear on the government and the role of the presidency.

Tony (34:22)
Yeah, I mean, I think that he's really dissatisfied because he wants Taft, who's largely a conservative and a constitutionalist, to continue his progressive policies, and he doesn't. And so Roosevelt just decides no one else can do it. Right. So he's going to run again effectively for a third term, but maybe not officially, considering he took over for McKinley and runs in 1912 very much as a progressive, he's supporting a lot more sort of radical reforms even than when he was President. He sort of has these ideas of the new nationalism and so forth. So I don't think we have time to quite go into all that. But, yeah, I mean, he's driven by this ambition, and he returns from that African Safari, just charged up Taft, and eventually decides to run again and comes in second to Woodrow Wilson. And poor Howard Taft is a distant third.

Mary (35:34)
Poor Taft, Taft really gets the shaft. That rhymes. But I also think it's true he's another interesting character because we're not talking about William Howard Taft, we're talking about Theodore Roosevelt. But even the sort of the end of his political story, quote-unquote, is super fascinating. And then he dies in 1919, so not too long after his run on the Bull Moose ticket, and he's only 60 years old when he dies, which is not very old. But he was extremely satisfied with his life. And I think even though we've just hit on the tip of the iceberg of his life and his presidency here, I think we can say that it was a full life, and he did a lot. And I think the fascination with him continues into the present day. And I know me personally, my father is a big Theodore Roosevelt fan, and I actually got him a shirt because he used to always say this. He says I'm still waiting for the second coming of Teddy Roosevelt. He says that all the time. So maybe I will never introduce my father to you, Tony. But again, his personality, his sheer will lives on.

Kirk (36:50)
I'll put in a quick plug that if you're ever in Washington, DC, and you are tired of seeing all of the other monuments, memorials, that there is a Roosevelt Island that's on the Potomac River that has a monument to Theodore Roosevelt. And it is the best encapsulation, I think, from an architectural standpoint of his personality that you can find. You go and it's on an island that's really pretty, still natural. It's not like a manicured garden or anything. And you kind of go up this rugged path and there stands this gigantic statue of Theodore Roosevelt that's like carved in these super harsh, angular kinds of shapes. And it's got a bunch of quotes from his life all etched on the stone around the monument. It's really incredible. But if you want a snapshot of who Theodore Roosevelt is, I find that monument to be a perfect encapsulation of it.

Mary (37:45)
Yeah, the statue really looks like it's yelling at you.

Kirk (37:48)
Yeah, exactly.

Tony (37:51)
I'll only add that I wish young people read more about Theodore Roosevelt. I mean, there are just so many great biographies of him. In many ways. You can't write a boring biography of him because he just did so much and had so much energy. Whether you agree or disagree with his political philosophy, he's just a fascinating character. Some of the most notable biographies, the three-volume set by Edmund Morris, there's a great one by HW Brands. There just aren't any bad ones. He's so interesting. So I really encourage everyone to go read more about Theodore Roosevelt.

Mary (38:31)
I definitely am going to read more about Theodore Roosevelt. That's something that's sort of always been on my list, and I'm always like. But this conversation has definitely sparked renewed my interest in him and learning about not only his life but also what he did for the presidency and how he changed it. I think that's really I think that's a good story to explore, and we're out of time. But Kirk and Tony, thank you so much for talking all things Theodore Roosevelt with me. I know I learned a lot. I hope our listeners learned something. And I hope you are coming away with your own questions that you want to ask about Theodore Roosevelt and other fascinating characters and stories in American history. We are so grateful that you came along for this ride with us and we hope that you will check out all of our resources on our website and keep in touch. Until then, everybody keep asking questions. Take care.

Intro/Outro (39:33)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website mybri.org. Any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We'd love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistry.org and don't forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.