What was the seminal moment in the votes for women movement? Join Mary and special guest Dr. Emily Krichbaum, History Department Chair at the Columbus School for Girls and founder of Remember The Ladies, as they delve into women’s progression of rights, ultimately leading to the passage of the 19th Amendment. What many roles did women have in advancing their right to vote? What methods of protest made Alice Paul different from her contemporaries?
Visit our episode page for additional resources:
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/remember-the-ladies-womens-right-to-vote
BRI's YouTube Channel: https://bit.ly/3xmvV1O
What was the seminal moment in the votes for women movement? Join Mary and special guest Dr. Emily Krichbaum, History Department Chair at the Columbus School for Girls and founder of Remember The Ladies, as they delve into women’s progression of rights, ultimately leading to the passage of the 19th Amendment. What many roles did women have in advancing their right to vote? What methods of protest made Alice Paul different from her contemporaries?
Visit our episode page for additional resources:
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/remember-the-ladies-womens-right-to-vote
BRI's YouTube Channel: https://bit.ly/3xmvV1O
Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of History weaves together US history, founding principles, and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what's inside.
Mary (00:23)
Hello, listeners, and welcome back to another episode of The Fabric of History. This is Mary Patterson here with you once again. And today we are looking at another movement in American history. Reform movements in constitutional systems can be slow, often frustratingly slow. And I think this is part of the reason why we like to single out moments. This idea of latching onto a moment in a larger movement got us thinking about the passage of the 19th Amendment. And this was a huge achievement. And yet it's also one of many moments in the bigger picture of securing an equal place for women in our society. And since the 19th Amendment is celebrating a milestone birthday, it's time to get a little reflective, because who doesn't like to get reflective around a big birthday? How should we remember the woman's movement? Does it have a seminal moment? And to help me wrestle with these questions, I'm delighted to be joined by Dr. Emily Krichbaum. Emily is an expert in American women's history and politics. She is the founder of Remember the Ladies, and she is the Department chair of history at the Columbus School for Girls. And as I said, I'm really excited that she's here with us today and I think you guys are in for a treat. So thank you so much for agreeing to be with us today. Before we go into this bigger topic of a women's movement in US history, I'd like to ask you a little bit about your own story, because I think our own stories are fascinating, especially when we talk about the bigger stories that make up history. What drew you into studying and teaching women's history?
Dr. Krichbaum (02:09)
I went into graduate school not planning on really studying all that much of women's history. I loved American history, and I love the stories behind American history and how it shed light on who we are and what we had always intended to be. But when I was working on my Ph.D., I was also teaching at Ashland University. And while I was teaching there, I incorporated some stories of women's history that I had learned from graduate school, not necessarily from undergrad. And the number of times of young female undergraduates walking up to me after class and saying how excited they were to hear these stories and how they didn't know that these existed. And where did I find them? Like this was Nicholas Cage and the National Treasure and there's a map somewhere because I just hadn't heard them before. And so it's actually my students and their interests and the way that they engage differently after seeing themselves in their own history that compelled me to have a concentration in American women's history. When I received my Ph.D.
Mary (03:20)
I think it really is amazing. So I was a high school history teacher, and it is amazing how students light up when they see themselves in the story. So I think that's so powerful that your students' reaction helped drive you in that way. So I have to ask, now you're teaching at a high school for girls in Columbus, Ohio, and is there anything that you especially like teaching them when you are teaching American history? Or how do you weave in stories of women in the American story?
Dr. Krichbaum (03:59)
So one of my favorite areas to teach is AP government. I'm actually teaching a few sections of AP government and several sections of political science. And I appreciate and enjoy teaching that so much because I always want my students to ask questions. I want to normalize asking questions. Right. This idea that we're not born with all of the answers of the way in which our government works, of how politics works. And the only way that you will be able to fully understand it is if you ask questions as being a class and we get to the root of the foundational knowledge that everyone works from and not politics, isn't meant government isn't meant for those people. Right. For the other people. I think when I was 15 or 16, I just assumed that I didn't need to fully understand it because it was meant for the people on Capitol Hill or the State House or those people, like the same people that did calculus, because I didn't worry about calculus much when I was 15 either. But I want them to realize that this is actually if we're running this country and leading this country and upholding the public in the way that Benjamin Franklin spoke of, we should all be educated and we should all be virtuous citizens.
Dr. Krichbaum (05:16)
And so it's important that we understand this foundational material so we can all then not only engage in conversation but actually become a part of politics. And so I tend to end most lectures or discussions with, well, when you're a Senator one day. Right. And have this be this isn't meant for someone else. This is as approachable for you as it is for X, Y, or Z. And on the flip side of what I had said earlier, when we talk about history and, oh, look, there are individuals that look like you in history now. You could be a part of history. Right. Making it more of a current event. So that's where I really get excited right now, is just making this be an open door to my students.
Mary (06:09)
I love telling them when you're a Senator one day, that's fantastic. And I'm going to copy that. So I'm just going to put that out there. I also think that you should come work for BRI because everything that you said is pretty much what BRI really wants to do. I think where we want everyone to be civically engaged and we think that history plays such an important role in having young people be civic-minded. And I think the story of getting the 19th Amendment passed and then sort of, where do we go from here once this amendment is passed? And in the current day, I think that provides not only a great story, a great history lesson but also a great opportunity to think about how our government works. So maybe we should take a quick break and then we can dive into that story.
Mary (07:11)
Okay. We are back. For lack of a better place to start. We'll start at the very beginning. So in your opinion, when does a women's movement in the United States really start?
Dr. Krichbaum (07:28)
I think historians love their bookmarks and their bookends. And I think that one of the most convenient places to start is with the Seneca Falls Convention and the Declaration of Sentiments in New York in the mid 19th century. Now is that to suggest that before 1848, no one was thinking about the ability of women to vote or them having access to or the capacity to. No, of course not. But I do think there is something to be said about a movement beginning with the documents and with particular principles and organizing around that and having conversations about. Well, we don't necessarily agree with what's going on right now, but what do we agree with in the same way I think I mentioned before in the First Continental Congress. Right. You have all of these delegates come together, and they know that the relationship with Great Britain isn't exactly what they had intended, but they aren't sure what the resolution is in all of that. And so I think with Seneca Falls having a Declaration of Sentiments and saying this is the relationship that we have with men in our lives, and this is what we strive for. And even though the vote wasn't unanimous in agreement that women should have that even at Seneca Falls, I think you could argue that that's the intellectual origins of that.
Mary (08:58)
I do think it's interesting that. So having the right to vote is the very last part of that document, and it barely squeaks by. Right. I think that's it was almost a bridge too far at the time. Or why do you think that was?
Dr. Krichbaum (09:15)
No, I completely agree with you, because while there are certain individuals that attended that I believe would want the right to vote, even Lucretia Mott referred to Elizabeth Cady Stanton and said, Lizzy, you're going to make fools out of us. Right. As you mentioned, that movements, especially within a Republic with Democratic practices, is slow. Right. And so it's about prudence and about baby steps and about being able to make a little bit of forward progress. But if you add too much there, you'll be a laughingstock and you won't get anything pushed through. Right. I mean, it's a William Lloyd Garrison issue where sure. Burn copies of the Constitution on the courthouse steps and make more enemies, but you're not going to make any progress. And so there's what you believe, and then there's what you believe is possible to accomplish. And so I think a lot of the women that attended and men that attended the Seneca Falls convention believed it was necessary for women to have the right to vote. But did they believe that they could accomplish it at that moment? Probably not. So better to leave it off, which is what I think the controversy was really about.
Mary (10:24)
I think that's a really interesting point that we can't get inside the heads of all the people who were there. So maybe, as you said, maybe they wanted it, but they just didn't want to put it on paper or sign their name to such a thing. I think that's fascinating. And I think that's a really powerful thing to get across, not just to students, but to adults, too. What are you willing to commit yourself to get something done? I think that's a timeless question, really. That's fascinating.
Dr. Krichbaum (10:55)
And one of the things that you oftentimes see in movements is how long are you willing to work towards this? Right. And dedicate time to this. And I remember speaking to a women's history book club over a Zoom-type meeting in 2016, and it was the day after the election. And I think a lot of young girls and women were assuming that there was going to be a bit of a celebratory historic event. Right. With the first female President. And many of them ask me like, well, what now? And the best response, which is probably the worst response, was talking about how many decades our foremothers, you could say, spent in trying to get the right to vote. This took 70 years, and I don't think that that was a satisfying response for them. But it is it's slow and it's arduous, but it's also worthwhile.
Mary (11:50)
So the Seneca Falls convention, I think, is something that teachers and students are generally familiar with and that's usually see that in textbooks usually get that covered to some extent in classrooms. Is there something equally important in the movement over the 70 year period that you think gets short shrift or that you wish more teachers could spend more time on?
Dr. Krichbaum (12:15)
I think it's exactly what you said. The 70-year movement. I think we go from 1848 to 1920 within a few minutes, and there really isn't a whole lot of discussion in between. I think there's an issue not only of what happened but who happened. The fact that you have individuals like Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton who are writing about Native Americans and the practices of Native Americans in New York before the Seneca Falls convention and how within these tribes it was women who decided who the chiefs would be because it was believed that women were the ones who created life, so they should have a voice in who helps to sustain it and if you go to war. That's a really powerful concept. And you have early female suffragists who are writing about these tribes and about the way in which women are revered and how much of a voice that they have. And so I think even acknowledging various audiences that have influenced who we believe to be the main actors and actresses in this narrative is really important. We tend to have a Rosa Parks view of the suffrage movement in the same way that we do the civil rights movement, where one day this happens and everything changed, whereas it's the less glamorous moments of organization, of spending nights by the fireside writing letters or marching and protests, and nothing immediately happened the next day that should be recognized as well.
Dr. Krichbaum (13:59)
I'm not sure I answered your question, Mary, but to say it could be anything from Seneca Falls to the arguments over the 15th Amendment right and the split of suffragists between those who believed that we should rally behind black men to be able to push this amendment forward or to completely separate and only focus on women's right to vote. It could be Alice Paul and the National Women's Party and the way in which she really organized a more radical approach to complement Carrie Chapman Catt's state by state ratification, state by state approach before the 19th Amendment. It could be World War I right in suggesting this war is a war for democracy. Then there's a little bit of hypocrisy in what Wilson saying. So I do think that there are a lot of different events. I think what's been most powerful in teaching in class is talking about the actresses that we don't hear as much about that have really helped inspire those that we do know about.
Mary (15:11)
So you mentioned do you have an example you mentioned that Lucretia Mott writing about Native American tribes and how they afforded a higher status to women. And I love that phrasing of if you give life, then you should have a voice in sustaining life because I recently gave life. I have a toddler son crashing around in my home as we speak, and that was no joke. So I think that's really incredibly powerful. Any other, I guess, interesting backstories that you wish everyone knew about if we're talking about this movement?
Dr. Krichbaum (15:53)
Yeah, I think another really important one that I oftentimes think about and many know this one probably a little bit better than the other is how the 19th Amendment was finally passed. And who helped pass that in a state legislature in Tennessee by the name of Harry Burn, who was one of the youngest, if not the youngest state legislature in Tennessee's history, and how Tennessee was really the final state that we believe would ratify maybe potentially ratify the 19th Amendment. I mean, you have that in North Carolina and North Carolina was pretty clear was not going to ratify. You have three States that said that they wouldn't even hold a vote for ratification. And then there are eight that had already voted against it. And so it comes down to Tennessee, and it comes down to Harry Burn. And he receives a telegram in the midst of voting. And the Telegram is from his mother. And he had been wearing a flower on his lapel signifying that he was not going to vote for this amendment that day. And he gets a telegram that says, be a good little boy and help put Mrs. Katt put the rat and ratification.
Dr. Krichbaum (17:09)
And what I really love about that is the 19th-century ideal was that women knew what was best. Separation is fierce cult of domesticity. Women knew what was best and most righteous and pure and moral. And that's why they should raise the kiddos. And so, of course, Mr. Burn should listen to his mother when his mother asks for him to vote in a kind of municipal housekeeping Jane Adams type of way. Those stories are really what bring it to life. But I think it's important to also acknowledge their stories against the amendment as well. I mean, you have liquor lobbies who are wanting to make sure that women do not have the right to vote. And so you will see on the day of voting that there will be bars that will say vote against women's suffrage and get a free beer. Right? I mean, there are ample corporations and various lobbies that do not want women to have the right to vote. And so there's these really incredible and sometimes ridiculous stories, but they're lost when it is this very quick timeline and jump. And part of that is not the teacher's fault. I'm always very quick to say that it's really not anyone's fault. There's just so much history there, and there's so little time, which is hard. And it's figuring out how to use that in the best way.
Mary (18:43)
Right, exactly. And I know we have a lot of teachers who listen and are part of our podcast and are part of BRI's Network, and they're intimately familiar with that. The age-old question of you have limited time, so what you teach is almost just as important as what you're leaving out. So it can be tough. I love the story of Harry Burn. We've included that in our Votes for Women curriculum. So teachers, if you're listening, you should definitely check that out on mybri.org. But I think it's also a really interesting way to show students that individuals agency is still a thing. So we're talking about this movement with all these splits and divides and different actors and different personalities and styles. But what a specific person decides to do or not do still has consequences. So I think that's also really powerful part of that story.
Dr. Krichbaum (19:39)
So often we look at history as these kind of historical robots, and then they all sign the declaration. It's like no, there was a lot of conversation. There's a lot of argument that these individuals all have different agendas and fears depending on where you lived and what you did. So, yeah, I think it's so important because it brings it to life for students.
Mary (20:01)
You mentioned earlier a split in the women's movement over the 15th Amendment. And that's something that I think is again, it's something else that's not terribly well known about. But I think it's important just and again, reiterating that movements take time and not everyone's on the same page, and there have to sometimes be splits and that coming together. It's not a linear story. So maybe we can take a quick break and dive into that when we come back
Mary (20:40)
Before the break, we were talking about this idea that in such a long movement, it's not a clear linear path, and you're going to have splits and steps back as well as forward. And I think one story that I was not terribly familiar with was this sort of split in the women's movement after the Civil War when the argument over the 15th Amendment, which would get African American men the right to vote. So can you talk a little bit about that and sort of what the arguments were and what that meant for the movement going forward?
Dr. Krichbaum (21:16)
Absolutely. So I'll back up just a little bit. All historians say that right. Let me give you ten more years before I answer your actual question. Before the Civil War, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony had decided we're going to be good little soldiers and we are going to show how patriotic we are, and we're going to put this reform on ice and we're going to show the United States and we're going to show the Union just how much we care about this country and how much we deserve to be voting citizens of this country. And so they supported the Union effort significantly and rallying the troops, their troops. Right. For the specific purpose of winning the Civil War in hopes that after the war is over that that would be acknowledged and that would be rewarded with the right to vote, especially with this Lincolnian language of the people, for the people, by the people. Gettysburg Address. Right. And you have the emancipation of African Americans and all of this. And so with the Reconstruction Amendments, when the 15th Amendment comes up, of allowing African American men, though oftentimes just on paper, as we'll find out the right to vote, Elizabeth Cady Stanton wants women to be added to this amendment.
Dr. Krichbaum (22:40)
And when there's discussion of that, the Equal Rights Association having some debates, many individuals argue that women should not be on that amendment. Now, this is not because women do not deserve the right to vote, but instead, there's a small chance that the 15th Amendment will be passed. There's no chance of the 15th Amendment being passed if you add women, there's just no chance. And so what you end up seeing are individuals who say better African Americans and no women than no one at all. Right. And Frederick Douglas would be one of those. And Frederick Douglas, who was at the Seneca Falls convention, who is pro women's rights movement, pro women's vote, all of those things. He looks at Elizabeth Cady Stan and says, look, until you walk down the street and fear that you will be lynched to a street post, right. To a light post, there's really no discussion here. He says, and I quote, this is the Negro's hour. Right. And there are some suffragists, specifically, Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who just can't accept that. And instead of them relying on universal principles that they had before your X, Y, if you are capable of sound mind or sovereign of self or all of these things that we hold true in, near and dear in the United States and you should be able to vote, they start to recoil and work from an environment of scarcity and say, well, if only one group gets the right to vote, it should certainly be the most educated, the most civilized, the most, and they descend into a rather racist rhetoric and really have some significant moral compromises in pursuit of their own freedoms.
Dr. Krichbaum (24:43)
And you'll see that when they'll make the argument to Southern Democrats that, hey, you want to offset the African American vote, allow women the right to vote. So it's not the brightest, most beautiful component of women's history by any stretch of the imagination, but indeed a part of that history.
Mary (25:04)
I think there's a couple of things that strike me about the things that you just said, that last thing you said, it's not the most beautiful part of the story, but it's incredibly important part of the story. So that makes me a little sad. And again, I'm speaking anecdotally that's not as well known, because again, I think it's just the messiness and the nuance. And not to say that Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, they should be written off because they had that because they did still work for change. But again, I guess the bottom line is I think that knowing that part of the story is really important. And I hope that their teachers are listening. If they can impart that in some way, it just makes the story that much more. You take it to heart more. And I think it leads to more good questions that students and adults can ask.
Dr. Krichbaum (26:06)
And I do think also if I can just add just a little bit more to that, one of the things that you see are African American women as they're focusing their organization on getting the right to vote for all. Women are often pushed to the sidelines or aren't photographed. This doesn't end with the 15th Amendment. But what white female suffragists are very aware of is that they're going to need at least a handful of states in the south to ratify this amendment. And the south really doesn't want any Yankee amendment right telling them what to do. And this was one of the greatest problems in Tennessee in 1920 was that yet again, it was another federal amendment that was telling these former Confederate States how to live and who can vote and not something that they appreciated. And so it's walking this line of trying to appease people for the sake of progress, but morally not looking the best. It's politics, I guess.
Mary (27:14)
I'd like to shift gears a little bit and talk about we mentioned other points in this movement for marching through time that are significant and led to the passage of the 19th Amendment. And I think that, again, BRI has a fond spot for Alice Paul and what she did to her role in this story. So again, Alice Paul is someone speaking anecdotally I was not as familiar with before coming to BRI, but I love her story. I think she's fascinating, and I appreciate how she thought she didn't know she was going to be joining a debating society. She wanted to see action. And I think that speaks to something you mentioned, that this is slow and it can be frustrating. I mean, how essential was Alice Paul and the National Women's Party in getting or what is that story? Briefly, if people like myself weren't as familiar with her, and are they, like, the catalyst to getting this amendment passed, or is it more complicated than that?
Dr. Krichbaum (28:20)
I do think it's more complicated than that. I consider Alice Paul and those women of the National Women's Party who really came to prominence in the 19 teens with their more radical, action-focused tactics agenda, the next generation, the ones who may or may not have taken the efforts of Susan B. Anthony, of Carrie Chapman, Catt, the ones the state by state nice and slow for granted and came onto the scene and had this nothing changes if nothing changes moment. And well, clearly this isn't working. So we're going to do this. Maybe we've all had a student or two or have been that student where it's like I know exactly what's going on and I know the best way. I've been here for two minutes, but let me show you how it's done. Right. And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're not, but sometimes they're right. So Alice Paul is incredibly educated. She goes to Swarthmore, she gets a Ph.D. from UPenn, she studies over in England. And while she's in England, she meets an American, Lucy Burns, and both of them learn some of the more militant protest tactics across the seas and bring them back.
Dr. Krichbaum (29:44)
And so I'm not sure that this would be possible without the more traditional foundation that was first laid. But because there was that organization and because you have individuals in various chapters in every single state working, lobbying to get an amendment or even to get women's suffrage at a certain level pass at each state. When Alice Paul comes back and says, we are going to have a parade the day before President Wilson's inauguration to proclaim that we deserve the right to vote, or when she says we are going to have a 24 hours picket of a wartime President saying, Mr. President, take the beam out of your own eye that we are fighting because Germans don't have a voice and 51% of the population doesn't have a voice when they are arrested for obstructing traffic on the sidewalk and are put in jail. And they said we're going to have a hunger strike because that's a pretty effective model that we've seen before and our force-fed. I believe HBO's Ironjawed Angels has a wonderful depiction of everything that they had done. But what that does is it brings press. It's a drastic measure for a suffering movement.
Dr. Krichbaum (31:12)
I think the women's movement, dare I say, was maybe a little bit too polite. It was really important to have both of those, right, to have the steady progress and then have finally the no, we demand it now, and we're going to make a little bit of a scene, and it's okay if things get a little bit messy.
Mary (31:33)
I think, again, that's maybe true of other movements in the United States where you have there's so much legwork of people who have come before you, and then there's this generational tension of young people wanting something done faster, which I think is something that young people are still clamoring for, like fix it now answers now.
Dr. Krichbaum (31:54)
Well, and the civil rights movement. Right. You have the older institutions and then you have the next generation and then black power and Stokely Carmichael. There are a lot of parallels.
Mary (32:09)
Yeah. So it's interesting how the generations that's just a recurring theme throughout history of how each generation responds to work with or pushes against or how that plays out. I think that's really interesting, too. Again, so the amendment does pass in 1920 and one of the things that I appreciate about Alice Paul is that after the amendment is passed, she keep continues to work for what we would call today the Equal Rights Amendment. So I think that's another reason why I kind of I think personally admire her as sort of her tenacity, that she just wouldn't stop the work continues, I guess she would say. So I guess maybe that's one of my final questions for you is where do we go from here? What do you think is next, just in your own I know you don't have a Crystal ball.
Dr. Krichbaum (33:07)
No, but I do. What I've noticed, if you were to go back 120, 130 years, I think there are a lot of people that said a lot of people did say, is America really ready for women to vote? Right. That was the general conversation. It's like, well, it doesn't sound like the worst idea, but are they really ready? And I think what we've seen in the last year, in the last four or five years, is America really ready for a female President? It doesn't sound like the worst idea, but I just don't know. And even the way in which some commentators will talk about the way in which a woman debates versus a man or the way they'll talk about her appearance versus a man. And so I think really the next step, I think this is a safe bet, is now that it's normal and accepted for women to have the right to vote, at what point is it going to become entirely normal that women are the ones that are being voted for and are not just voting? And I think there's a lot of work being done in various organizations to have young women and women believe that they are capable of something, because on average, it takes, I think, five times to tell a female, you should run, you're pretty amazing.
Dr. Krichbaum (34:31)
They're like, I don't know, maybe. Right. But even just building that confidence or this idea and belief that you're capable of this opportunity is available for you and you don't just have to vote on someone, you could actually be the one that's running.
Mary (34:45)
I think that is a really wonderful thing to think about because I just know in my own personal network, I can think of so many women that I think would be tremendous as an office and the things that they could do and things I know they can do. So I think that is something that hopefully we'll see soon again, not for women, for women their own just because. Correct.
Dr. Krichbaum (35:13)
But because they're a worthy and legitimate candidate. Actually, at the end of AP government, I'll do superlatives, and I'll have them all be most likely to become a lobbyist or become a representative. And they all have these conditions as to why you would vote for that person and what that would look like. And so it's not the funniest or the most attractive. It's the most likely to become a Senator. And I think it's a small way to embolden your students to believe that they're able to be in those seats.
Mary (35:46)
Yeah. And as we have seen in the women's rights movement, it's small incremental. It's baby steps working for progress. What can we accomplish now? And I think that you gave us a lot of food for thought to think about in that context. Thank you so much for being with us today. Really enjoy talking with you. I will tell people to look at your website. Remembertheladieshistory.com, if you're trying to work more women's stories into your history classroom is a great place to start and to get in touch with you. And if you're listening when you're a Senator one day, we hope that you make some great changes for everyone in our country. So thanks for listening. Everybody. And thank you again, Dr. Emily Krichbaum.
Mary (36:36)
Hi, everybody. Mary here with a small reflection on Dr. Krichbaum's parting thoughts on what comes next in our story. I thought of her comment that we'll see more women running for and serving in public office as a record number of women took their seats in the 117th Congress and as Kamala Harris was sworn in as our first female Vice President by Justice Sonia Sotomayor no less. Movements for change can be slow and messy, but where there is movement as there has been so recently, it's a good time to pause and reflect on the work that has been done. Those who know me know that I am quite the cynic, but I am hopeful and cheered by the thought that my young son won't grow up thinking it is unusual for a woman to serve her country anymore so than a man because more and more women are doing so. And that is something worth celebrating.
Intro/Outro (37:35)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website mybri.org. Any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We'd love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and don't forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.