Ye Olde Publick House & Dialogue

If you lived around the time of the Revolutionary War, where would you go to stay informed? Odds are it would have been the local pub. Join Mary, Gary, and Eryn as they discuss the impacts pubs and other public gathering places had on American discourse. Why were these places so pivotal for the discussion of ideas? Where do Americans gather today for their discussions?

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Transcript

Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of History weaves together US history founding principles and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what's inside.

Haley (00:20)
What is the value of dialogue and where can you find it now and in American history? This week, Mary, Gary, and Eryn explore this question by tracing the history of pubs in America and the important role that meeting areas, lodges, and taverns had in facilitating free speech and the dissemination of ideas. Does anything like this exist today?

Mary (00:49)
Today we thought we would shine a light on something that holds a unique place in American history. I'm talking about the pub, the public house, the Tavern, the ordinary, as it was referred to in Puritan, Massachusetts. I love that, by the way. Usually, we associate a pub with drinking. But as we are one to do here on the Fabric of History, we'd like to explore and complicate that story a little bit because there's drinking in a pub, for sure. But it's more than that. It's actually much more than that. If you're talking about American history and even just sort of this idea of discussion and meeting up with other people, even today,

Gary (01:36)
There's a lot to it. It's a very rich topic, as we saw. I mean, part of this first came up for listeners out there, if you listen to an older episode of ours about voting and the way that has kind of developed over time in American history early on, we briefly noted that pubs were part of that. You needed gathering places, both physically. You needed a place for a large number of people to get together, but also what that meant for a democracy where you can see other citizens and have political discussions, sometimes light-hearted discussions, but really civil discussion, civil discourse, as we like to say, in a public place with other people in the true public house. And I think that is again, I agree with you. The joy of thinking of what we think of in terms of pubs now and then going back in time and thinking what has that meant over time and particularly bringing up, I'm just throwing a lot out here, bringing up also pubs in terms of the truly American version of pubs versus British pubs and just what that says about our founding and our growing identity as Americans.

Eryn (02:46)
Yeah. And just saying identity as Americans. Back when we were still a British colony, one of the first things that was always built was a Tavern. So I think kind of speaking almost metaphorically of our identity, but it was almost like very physically part of our identity.

Mary (03:08)
And it's not something, as you said, Gary, that's unique to the United States. They replaced their coffee houses or public houses in England. They have coffee houses, salons in France. But there's something about the pub in America and the colonies to start that is unique, and that in turn is going to lead to why is it unique and how does it continue today? So maybe we should take a quick break and we can sort of trace the Spark Notes version of the public house in American history. Before the break, Eryn mentioned that a Tavern was usually one of the first things that was built in the colonies when people settled here in the New World. And the first Tavern was actually opened in March of 1634 in Boston, which was a heck of a long time ago. That's a lot older than our actual country itself.

Gary (04:14)
From the point of view of the Revolutionary War. That was a long time ago.

Mary (04:20)
So it's very much a presence right from the very beginning of when people of English descent are settling here in the Colonies. And by 1733, there's nearly 100 legal taverns in Philadelphia. So it's something where they're there from the beginning, and it seems to be expanding. And I think that they served a lot of purposes at first. They were landmarks for travelers because, again, something that's difficult for us to imagine today, even taking a ten-mile trip, is you're going to need to stay somewhere overnight. So there are definitely landmarks for travelers, someplace you can eat and drink and stay overnight if you need to. A place for people to gather and do business and talk, receive news. And a lot of these taverns had rooms that would serve as meeting places for assemblies and courts. Even so, you have, in a lot of ways, sort of official business going on in the Tavern. You could have an actual court meeting there. You could have people just talking. You could have people doing business, merchants, farmers chatting with each other. You're receiving news. It's really a social and almost a political hub for people in this colonial period.

Gary (05:40)
I did have a clarification question, though. We mentioned the word pubs, and you mentioned the word taverns. I know there's also saloons. Is there a functional difference between these?

Mary (05:51)
Yes. Good question. Good question here. So a Tavern usually hosts women and children. It's really sort of open to the community. A saloon was sort of the section of a Tavern, and it sort of evolves over time. It's not like it was this way one day, and it would vary from place to place, but the saloon was a place where it's very gendered. Women weren't allowed in. So that was just the men only part. And then there might be sections of a Tavern that would cater to more wealthy travelers. So you do have some it's not sort of like a free for all of mixing of social classes in men and women, but it is still very Democratic in a way that you really wouldn't see in England and you wouldn't see in France. And I think that's the part where it's starting to be uniquely American. It truly is a place where people come together. And especially in early taverns, it was rather cramped. And if you think about the founding of America, it's very diverse. It's not just English people, especially in these larger towns like Philadelphia or Boston, very cosmopolitan, and people coming sort of from all over the British Empire and outside of the British Empire.

Mary (07:04)
So you're going to be exposed to different ideas. You're going to be exposed to all sorts of news. And it's going to circulate in this entity. That's a good point to make that there is the Tavern part of it. There is a place that's just sort of serving the alcohol piece of it, but it is still the center, this hub of communities in colonial times.

Eryn (07:31)
I think one of the reasons that it so quickly kind of democratized itself was from a very practical standpoint, it was a place where colonists would gather to collect and distribute mail from overseas. And so I think for all these reasons, it's like you do you have this hub of very different people coming in for a lot of varied reasons.

Gary (08:00)
Yeah. It raises a really interesting question of cause and effect, which is always a fun thing to do in studying history in terms of as you're just saying, there are practical reasons for these to exist large spaces, you can get food. There's a lot of traveling that you don't do overnight. So as you stop off, you need them kind of periodically across your journey. Sometimes you're with your family, sometimes you're without them. Sometimes you need to meet about very important political discussions. Some it's just to find out you said the news like what's going on? How do I get the feeling for the town? All very interesting practical reasons that also what I'm hearing is cultivating sort of this Democratic conversations, connections among people within the area. And I want to circle back to what you're saying because we're talking about the colonial era that you're saying these are existing right before. So what was the interplay with having these spaces for people right before and leading to the changes that are happening in the country in the 1700s as the colonies are on the Eve of and maybe just around the time of becoming a new country? I feel like it's so significant.

Mary (09:17)
No, it is. I mean, you could say in some ways that the American Revolution starts in a Tavern because again, people are coming to hear the news. People would read news out loud. So even if you weren't literate or very basic literacy, you could hear the news by going there. And then even today, like usually when you hear news, it doesn't stop there. You have some sort of reaction. So there's discussion, there's reactions. So you have the organization of boycotting of British goods is happening in the Raleigh Tavern, Williamsburg. I should know that as a William and Mary Alum who spent my College years in Colonial Williamsburg. But that's still there. You can see that. So you have Washington and Jefferson in this Tavern organizing a boycott, and you even have the Boston Tea Party being planned in the Green Dragon Pub in Boston, which again, boycotting British goods, the Boston Tea Party, these are really important events leading up to the American Revolution. It's happening. The Genesis of this, it's coming from the pub because it's this gathering place. There's liquid courage being served. So people might be a little more talkative or likely to say what they're thinking.

Mary (10:38)
And so it's more than just having a drink. It really leads to the discussion. And then what is going to from that discussion, it's these actions that are going to lead in a big way to us even becoming a country. And we're just up to the 1770s. So there's so much more you could say about them. But I think that's really interesting beginnings in some way if you think about it.

Gary (11:06)
But I'm guessing since they still exist, that their importance continues after that period, is that right?

Mary (11:14)
Yes. So pubs survive, the conversation survives, but it looks different, right? It's going to change. It's going to evolve over time. Why don't we take a quick break and then we'll take up the evolution of the pub? And where are these conversations happening or what sort of conversations are happening in the public house after this?

Gary (11:45)
Welcome back. So before the break, we were questioning our views of what pubs mean. And we said that obviously that sort of changed over time before the Revolutionary era and through those beginning parts there they had certain structures and functions that kind of happened organically, but they, as we said, still exist. And so do people coming together and having political discussions. But it definitely seems like that has changed over time since the Revolutionary era. And so I think it's worth sort of considering how and in what ways our interactions with pubs and taking it a step further, how we still gather and have conversations and what we call civil discourse also has occurred in the time since the 1770s.

Mary (12:42)
My quick point is that when we say people are gathering and we're still men, at this point, we're not ladies and we're not allowed in the saloon. But the bigger point that's interesting. And of course, over time, who is having the conversations will become more inclusive. Right. Just sort of as our country becomes more it's not just men going to the bar, it's everybody. But the interesting thing to me is that anytime you have a gathering of people, whether you're talking about 1650 or you're talking about 1750 or 1850 or today, is that there is going to be discussion and there's going to be a dialogue. And it's almost like that. Is that dialogue going to lead to action? And do you need to place limits on that?

Gary (13:36)
The joy, again of history is starting with something that on the surface seems very simple and realize is a complex and rich story over time. And so we were talking about sort of two things, right? That there's the existence of pubs, public houses, taverns that are gathering places that brought people in, whether or not you're traveling or local to have conversations. But then there's the aspect of what's going on in these pubs, which is what we're talking about civil discourse and discourse about lots of different things. And we've sort of been focusing on the political, the community, those sort of aspects that we call like civic discourse as well as civil discourse. But I want to note that, again, this is over time, pubs have survived and discourse obviously has survived and they still interact. But I would say it seems like in a very different way. And it makes me wonder about today, like, what are the legacy of these things? How we get together with other people and talk and chat. I'm just going to toss out like an anecdote. Right. So I'm thinking about when we're talking about the colonial era and how like to get from New York to Boston, for example.

Gary (14:54)
I'm going to use New York just because that's where I'm from. So I just know this math that in the early 1800, it took about four days to do it. Right.

Gary (15:02)
So over those four days, you'd want to stop off at a place, sleep, but probably eat, drink, and you had taverns and things like this. And there you might meet other people and have conversations about what you have in common, what's on the mind of Americans in that area. So I was thinking about like, wow, that was such a different time. But then I think, well, it doesn't take four days, but I still might travel to an airport. And in an airport, you might find maybe not a Tavern, but you might find an airport bar. And in there you might find other fellow travelers and have these conversations about what's going on in the world, and you're still maybe getting your news. You're sharing perspectives all in that same kind of atmosphere. And I wonder if that is a legacy of what we're talking about from the colonial era. Is that some remnant of this very American experience?

Eryn (15:56)
I definitely would agree with that. I'm thinking about even though it doesn't take four days or whatever to get to Boston, you still might get stuck if there's bad weather and need to pass time like you would in the olden days. And the other half of that legacy, which I think is also connected to what you're saying, Gary, is just like the need to gather and converse with people. And when you were telling your anecdote, I was thinking about how when I was younger, I would never want to go to a bar or restaurant by myself because it just seems so awkward. But then over time, I realized people just start talking to you, especially when you go by yourself. And so I would always take like a book as a security blanket, just in case nobody did talk to me. But I ultimately never ended up reading it because bartenders, people sitting around you just naturally start talking to you. And I came to really enjoy that, too, because like you're saying, you get to meet not fellow travelers but kind of fellow in my case, or maybe even people who were just visiting and have very interesting conversations and people you would not have otherwise met in conversations you would otherwise not have had.

Eryn (17:15)
And I think that's what drove people. Of course, this is postulating, but that is what drove people to gather in pubs is to have these conversations that they wouldn't have. And to have these people or to have these people to meet these people they would not have otherwise met.

Mary (17:33)
I think well, first, I'd like to say as the only introvert on this podcast, an extreme introvert at that, that I do not frequent the airport bar, but I do see people doing it. And I appreciate that even though we started this conversation with the public house and its place sort of in colonial history and that what the public house looks like is different today. But the need to gather and to associate and to talk with other people, I think is the continuity. And I think the American part of that its people from all different places going all different places. So whether you're at an airport or whether you stop at a neighborhood bar, whether you're visiting a brewery or something, you're going to encounter people sort of from different walks of life. And there's this need to talk and to listen and to sort of have that engagement. And I think that's really cool thing. And I think even again, even as an extreme introvert in this, you know, the last year living through a pandemic where we can't gather, I mean, even I extreme introvert, Mary, has felt that missing that being able to be with other people in the flesh.

Mary (18:49)
So I think this need to gather and to talk and to listen is sort of perennial. And it's changing. And sometimes it has to change because there's a pandemic or sometimes it's just changing because we are in a constant state of change. That is history. That is life. So what it will look like moving forward is also an interesting thing to speculate. I don't know. I hope that one day we'll be able to have a podcast happy hour.

Eryn (19:21)
Well, Mary, even what you're saying and talking about being an introvert and not going to bars, but there is still that need to associate and converse. And kind of what we were talking about earlier is that it may not always be done in pubs anymore, but that need still exists. And it's done in a variety of ways. Right. Just because you're an introvert and you don't go to the airport bar doesn't mean you aren't associating and having conversations. People just have found different ways to do it. And like you also mentioned, that was really driven home in this past year. People had to find different ways to have those conversations or those gatherings. You're talking about the influx of Zoom happy hours. But yeah, you're right. It's constantly developing because I think that's a human need that will always exist.

Gary (20:19)
Everything you're talking about absolutely is, I think, what makes history fun. Right. Because let's really be honest, we're coming off of a year where we couldn't gather for a lot of it, and that really highlighted a need to do so. And I think you're right. Even before this past year, we had always found ways and new, exciting ways to connect with people, whether it is online or in lots of different ways. But there's something about not physically gathering together with people you don't know very well in, let's say, public houses that really highlighted. What is it about the need? And I think to me, what I think it's revealing from what everyone is saying is that it's a continuum, which I think is the fun of studying history. Right. That we start off by saying public houses in the way we were imagining it had this very colonial feel of early America, and yet it's actually part of an ongoing story of people gathering to speak about things on their mind of great import and sometimes not so great import with people you know well or don't know at all. And that is just this ongoing experience that we have that will, I am confident, continue, even if it looks different or functions differently, will continue on into the future.

Gary (21:44)
So I'm curious what that will look like, what will be our future public houses as we go on. And I think that's part of the fun of asking the questions in history is not only what has happened, but what do we think is going to happen and why?

Mary (22:04)
We started our conversation by saying that the pub has played a unique role in American history and we have come to a conclusion, (or have we?), that the need to gather is perennial and it's changing over time. So I would be curious to hear what our listeners are doing. How do you gather? How do you have these conversations in our present moment when we can't necessarily all be together? So please let us know your thoughts. Let us know your favorite drink, anything you can hit us up at comments@fabricofhistory.org if you liked our conversation, please leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to have you as part of our conversation, and we will be back with you once again soon. Take care.

Intro/Outro (22:55)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website mybri.org any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We'd love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and don't forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.