How much of the Pilgrims' story is a myth, and what exactly is important to remember about the meal they shared with local Native Americans? Mary is joined by Tony and Kirk to delve into the Pilgrims' harrowing journey to Plymouth and first winter to understand and appreciate the larger themes of what we commemorate as Thanksgiving today.
Visit our episode page for additional resources:
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/what-is-the-significance-of-the-first-thanksgiving-today
How much of the Pilgrims' story is a myth, and what exactly is important to remember about the meal they shared with local Native Americans? Mary is joined by Tony and Kirk to delve into the Pilgrims' harrowing journey to Plymouth and first winter to understand and appreciate the larger themes of what we commemorate as Thanksgiving today.
Visit our episode page for additional resources:
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/what-is-the-significance-of-the-first-thanksgiving-today
Haley (00:00)
With great sadness. I share the news that our irreplaceable friend and colleague Gary Colletti passed away on November 5. He will be deeply missed by everyone at the Bill Rights Institute, especially here at The Fabric of History he developed and put so much of himself into. We will always be inspired by his infectious quests for knowledge and unique ability to bring people together. We'll be putting out more content soon in celebration of his life and many achievements.
Mary (00:36)
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Fabric of History. I'm your host, Mary Patterson, and I'm so happy to have you back with us again. As always here on The Fabric of History, we're interested in diving into a dramatic story as a way to explore history in civics. The story of the first Thanksgiving is well known, but we thought we'd offer up the story with a BRI twist by focusing not so much on the holiday, but on the people, the pilgrims who were the pilgrims, really? What is their story beyond Thanksgiving, and why do they have such a special place in American memory? To help me out with these questions, I brought in some special reinforcements, both of which you have heard on this podcast before. Kirk Higgins is the director of content here at the Bill of Rights Institute. Kirk oversees all the brilliance that goes on in our content team, and he also makes a really mean pie. So he's especially qualified for an episode about pilgrims and Thanksgiving. Kirk, thank you for being with us today.
Kirk (01:45)
Well, thank you, Mary. I feel like now I need to go back and perfect my pie recipe even more
Mary (01:50)
And bring it into the office.
Kirk (01:52)
Absolutely.
Mary (01:53)
And secondly, I'm delighted to be joined once again by Tony Williams, BRI's senior fellow. You can find Tony on BRI's Scholar talk series on YouTube, where he sits down with experts in a whole host of topics. But in addition to this, Tony is a scholar and author in his own right, and he's also my personal fact-checker. We chatted about his book The Pox and the Covenant on a previous episode of The Fabric of History, and we learned so much from him that we brought him back again. Tony, thank you for joining us today.
Tony (02:26)
Mary, it's my pleasure, and good to be on with you and Kirk.
Mary (02:31)
Yes, again, we're glad that you both are here. And I started us off by saying that we really like dramatic narratives here at the Bill of Rights Institute. And I think the story of the pilgrims is fascinating, and it almost seems like a disservice to me to just limit them to their association with Thanksgiving. So it's like we're leaving out the best part of the story. So maybe a good place to start would be what are we actually talking about when we say the pilgrims? Who were they?
Tony (03:04)
Well, the pilgrims are those groups of separatists or what we commonly call Puritans. They were members of the Church of England, of the Anglican Church. And the Separatists actually separated themselves from that Church because they felt it was just too impure, it was just too ritualistic, too Catholic. And so they separate themselves. And the idea is that they're going to go elsewhere to establish what will later be called the city upon a Hill. Right. They're going to go and leave, physically separate themselves, and establish a pure Church. And the hope is that especially the Church of England would reform and would establish that pure character, that pure Church that they thought. And then perhaps one day when this occurred, they could return to that Church, but until then, they would leave the Church, but then also physically separate themselves as well.
Mary (04:34)
So the story of the Pilgrims, it doesn't start in Massachusetts Bay. It really starts with it starts in England, like you're saying. So they're Puritans, they want to purify the Church of England, and it's just beyond fixing. So they're separating themselves away. So it almost sounds like they were... Is extreme an appropriate way to describe them?
Kirk (05:01)
I think it's a good question to ask. Right. That it's during a period when there's a lot of theological changes and debates and things that are happening and coming after the Protestant Reformation, you're seeing a lot of new, different views coming about. And I think that they were a reflection of a particular period in time when this was at the heart of a lot of theological and religious debates, but also a lot of debates politically as well.
Tony (05:34)
I mean, there's a debate over orthodoxy. Right. There's a debate over the character of the Church. And from the time of the Protestant Reformation, right up through in the American colonies, the first great awakening in the American nation, the second great awakening, there is a great growth of various Christian denominations. Right. And they're sort of battling, if you will, for the soul of Christianity. What they think their version, their correct version. I don't know if it's a matter of extremism so much as they just think they're right, as do the members of the Church of England. There's that battle over this orthodoxy, and they think the Church of England is wrong. But certainly, Anglicans think that they are wrong and they are severely persecuted for their beliefs, and these ministers are thrown out of the Church of England. So it's a set of very strongly held beliefs on both sides.
Mary (06:41)
It's interesting. You use the phrase of battling for your soul. So I think that's pretty high stakes when you think about it. And I think that's an important thing to consider if we're thinking about the world view of these people. So I will say that I recently read a book by Nathaniel Philbrick called Mayflower, which is about sort of the experience of the Pilgrims. And it was so interesting. I learned so much more than what I learned as a little kid about the first Thanksgiving. But I think going back to my initial thoughts here, the story of the Pilgrims is so fascinating. It is a story of such hardship and despair that I left coming away from it, thinking, oh, my God, I would never uproot my life like the way that these people did, and came to Massachusetts in the winter to start over again. But if you think about this was your soul that was at stake here, I think that helps us empathize with why they decided to do what they did.
Tony (07:55)
And they left England and they had gone over to Holland and then eventually made their way over to America, in which they thought they were kind of aiming for Virginia and kept going a little bit north up towards Massachusetts. But one reason why I love Mayflower as well the book by Philbrick is it really brings out just how harrowing this journey was. And it was several months long, and this sort of errand into the wilderness, as it's called it was an extraordinary voyage, very dangerous, and their lives were endangered and threatened. There was a great deal of peril in taking on this journey. So there's no small amount of courage in doing this as well.
Kirk (08:48)
Yeah. Just to add to that, I think it's really important to emphasize how seriously they held those views. And I think when we're thinking about their experience and particularly thinking about Thanksgiving in sort of a historical context, it's important to keep that in mind that these weren't people that were just mouthing sort of words or trying to do something that was symbolic of this faithfulness, but they were truly people dedicated to this idea, dedicated to this pure version of what they saw as a direction that the Church needed to go, this pure version of Christianity, and that Salvation was ultimately a serious goal towards which they were working. And I think thinking about that in the context of Thanksgiving is important because it was truly something that they saw as a benevolent moment, right, as a moment where they were being truly thankful to God for what had been provided to them and for suffering and the benefits that came through. I think some of that suffering that they saw that suffering as a path towards, that Salvation in getting to that moment of Thanksgiving was then something truly, I think, important for them.
Mary (10:04)
Well, Tony, you mentioned the harrowing journey and then actually thinking we're heading towards Virginia, but actually ending up in Cape Cod in November. So I think maybe we should take a quick break and then talk a little bit more about what that actually meant and why they ended up where they were to sort of set the scene for what will the following year be, the quote, unquote first Thanksgiving.
Mary (10:39)
We established that the Pilgrims, they're separatists. They have very deeply held beliefs about their religion and why they are they need to leave England they go to Holland. Why they have to leave Holland and come to the New World after a really difficult journey. Tony said they end up sort of by accident in Cape Cod in November. So this is not the best time to be arriving in New England in the winter months. And that first winter, I think, is something that, again, for a modern audience is really hard for us to understand just how difficult and terrifying it must have been for these men, women, and children that had just survived 66 days in a ship. And just it sounds absolutely it sounds horrible. Can you talk a little bit about what was that winter-like for them or what happens when they actually get on land after their journey?
Tony (11:42)
Well, it's quite terrible, as one can imagine. I mean, they've been at sea and they have their ship and they have some of their supplies, which we're probably sort of worm written by then and not entirely consumable. But there's no crops here. They have to plant crops. And of course, here in the middle of winter is beginning in Massachusetts, which is a tough winter even today, and they just don't really have enough food. They're suffering from scurvy, which is a deficiency of vitamin C. And I forget the exact numbers, but roughly half of them die. It's really tragic. And we often associate that sort of death pattern and disease with Jamestown, and that was very bad as well. But the Pilgrims experience a really harsh winter and the colony barely survives. And you want to talk about drama, we sort of usually leave that part out, but the state of the colony really in many ways hung on the edge of a knife in terms of surviving, and they do. And we can understand perhaps why they're so grateful and thankful come the first Thanksgiving.
Mary (13:11)
Well, I think at least the story that we get when we're little is that a big reason why they are able to survive through that first winter, not having great shelter, having hardly any food, is that they do get help from the local Native Americans. I think we, as Americans like to play up that part of the story because I think it's important. This idea of cooperation and helping each other to get through things is something that still resonates with us. But why would Massa Soya so the local leader, why would he want to help these people coming into his land? Do we know anything about that or what his motives may have been, or is it just speculative?
Tony (13:58)
Well, some are speculative, but you can imagine many Native Americans were very good traders and would want to interact with colonists, whether they established small fishing villages, colonies, temporary settlements, more permanent settlements, or whether ships just stopped by along various coasts along North America. So there's decades of this interaction, so they could have been trying to benefit as well. And there's just some curiosity as well, and they help them. The Pilgrims also do their share of fishing and hunting and that kind of thing. But it's still, despite this help and some amount of self-sufficiency, there's still a very difficult winter to endure and to survive.
Mary (14:55)
I think that this is something that I found really interesting in the Mayflower book is that Philbrook really shows you how the Native American population in New England has been in contact with Europeans before. It's not just the pilgrims. It's the first time that they've seen Europeans. And as you've said, they have traded and they've also experienced their own share of tragedy with the diseases that Europeans have brought over. And Philbrook talks about the site where they actually build their settlement. The Pilgrims build their settlement was a Native American village that was absolutely decimated by smallpox. There was just no one left except spoiler, who we know is Squanto, which, again, is such a cool part of the story that he was actually taken away by previous Europeans and that actually spared him from the smallpox epidemic. And he, of course, helps the Pilgrims sort of establish their colony. But I think that's an interesting piece of the story that we don't always dwell on is that there were various Native American groups. They were competing with each other, sometimes at war with each other, sometimes trading with each other. And the Pilgrims are just sort of one player into this mix of many different people.
Mary (16:14)
So I think that's something that's a really interesting part of the story and also makes it much more like political kind of wheeling and dealing that we don't necessarily think about. We just think about they came and they survived this tough winter, and then they had a meal to celebrate it. But it really was much more dire than that and much more like lots of intrigue, I think, at the same time. So what actually happened the first Thanksgiving is, I mean, today we think of how big is your Turkey? And I know my dad is always bragging he finds the biggest Turkey he can possibly get. Needless to say, there was no turkey at the first Thanksgiving. But what was behind the idea of having this day of thanks?
Tony (17:00)
The Pilgrims wanted to thank those who had survived did survive and to be thankful for the bountiful nature that they found more in the spring and summer and to celebrate their first harvest as well of corn. It really leads to a larger discussion of days of Thanksgiving. I know we like to do it on the fourth Thursday of November every year, and there's sort of a set pattern all this, but the Pilgrims Puritans, but even the American revolutionaries and into the 19th century, even Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War would have occasional days of Thanksgiving, or they would also have days of fasting and prayer. And it relates to the Puritan Covenant theology, which was essentially the idea that the Puritans were sort of a new Israel if you will, and God would reward them, would send them blessings if they held to their side of the Covenant, which is a sacred agreement, that they were to be faithful, that they were to be virtuous, that they were to follow God's laws and God's will for them, they would receive lessons. But also if they strayed, if there was sin among them, a collective sin among them, and they strayed from their faithfulness both in belief and indeed, that God would punish them with calamities like a smallpox epidemic or an earthquake or a bad harvest or war or what have you.
Tony (18:55)
And that they would hold days of prayer and fasting. Right. That's kind of the other side of this that we don't normally think of because we like to just celebrate the bounty and eat a lot of food and be grateful. But there's that other side of it. When bad things were happening, they felt that they were responsible for not living up to their end of the Covenant and would go to Church all day long and listen to sermons and pray, and they wouldn't eat it all. They would fast, they would abstain from food to force them to think about their repentance. So this Puritan Covenant theology is really important for understanding why they're having this Thanksgiving celebration at all.
Mary (19:41)
So this idea of giving thanks and as you said, it wasn't confined to a specific day, it almost sounds like it was sort of called ad hoc when there was something to be thankful for. And I think what perhaps makes what we come to know as Thanksgiving more memorable or why we latched onto it, is this idea that massive Soya and his people come and join them for this. It's a beautiful moment if we're thinking about American history, because, of course, relationships with Native American groups in American history are often very tragic and sad. But at this moment, in the very beginning, I think it's a coming together of equals, really. They survive with each other's help, and they just spend that time together. And maybe they came to it with different reasons. And we were like, oh, you're having food, we'll sit down and have some food with you. Even though they're not buying into this idea of the Covenant, they have their own world views and beliefs, but this is a sharing of what they have, I think is a really powerful thing and definitely worth commemorating every year.
Mary (21:04)
The first Thanksgiving is in 1621. So Interestingly. It's going to be its 400th birthday this year. So maybe we should all have a birthday cake at our Thanksgiving table as well. But if we fast forward in time, Thanksgiving doesn't become a national holiday until the Civil War. Abraham Lincoln makes it a national holiday. And I think it's really interesting. Kirk, you were saying that it's not so much the actual event that we're celebrating. I think Philbrick says that the first Thanksgiving probably took place in September, October, not November, but more the idea. I think that's really powerful, too.
Kirk (21:47)
Yeah. I think it's funny even calling it a first. I'm sure that Thanksgiving days were proclaimed back in England and throughout history as moments of reflection. And it's particularly interesting to think about it in the context of a tight-knit community or for, in our case, sort of a self-governing nation, because we are thankful to one another. We're thankful for the blessings that we have. And I think it has been throughout American history an opportunity to stop our busy lives and be grateful for everything that's around us. I think Abraham Lincoln's Thanksgiving Day proclamation during the Civil War was about successes and sort of the course of the war that's come up. Other presidents have done similar things and certainly isn't unique to the United States or isn't unique to Democratic government in any way. But I think it takes on a particular interesting context when you think about it that way, just to build on what you had said, they're married talking about coming together as a community. And I think it represents a certain ideal towards which Americans look to. I think Thanksgiving is interesting because it's not necessarily a commemoration of that event, but that event is a model for Thanksgiving, and I think that's different amongst holidays that we have because it's not a commemoration.
Kirk (23:03)
It's supposed to be a moment where we reflect on what we are thankful for in a very personal way.
Mary (23:09)
Tony, you spoke about how religion was such a huge part of the Pilgrim's experience and their worldview, and I wonder is what value, even for those Americans who are religious or who are not religious today, what value does Thanksgiving still have for us?
Tony (23:30)
Yes, I think that's a great question because as Americans throughout American history have celebrated Thanksgiving and Lincoln makes it a national holiday, and FDR kind of confirms when it's going to be held and so forth, Americans of all stripes continue to gather around, typically with their families and friends, to celebrate Thanksgiving and to share a meal together and enjoy each other's company and conversation. There's something very beautiful and very powerful about that, and I think it's sort of become part of America's civil religion. And what do I mean by that? What I mean is that what unites us as Americans think about our founding principles and ideals, our aspirations as Americans, sort of what binds us together, and that has certain beliefs. But our civic religion also has certain practices and rituals, if you will, almost like a religion. And some of those we're very familiar with, whether it's fireworks and a parade on the 4 July to celebrate our national independence, whether it's sort of a reflection on Memorial Day. And certainly, I think Thanksgiving is part of that right. It's part of our national heritage. And our ideals. It gives us hopefully a few minutes to kind of reflect upon that spirit of a common purpose, focus upon that national unity and I think Thanksgiving as a national holiday and as in many ways, a uniquely American holiday can give us that pause.
Mary (25:24)
That was really well said, Tony. And I think that Thanksgiving, it gives us the time to pause and reflect on what we're thankful for and to celebrate and create or uphold some of our own traditions at Thanksgiving. So what do your families do that's a special part of Thanksgiving for you?
Tony (25:46)
Well, I know that we're having some family members over, but we're also having our next-door neighbors over who didn't have anywhere to go. And although we have the standard Turkey and corn and mashed potatoes and such, I know that because I'm Italian American continuing tradition from my childhood of having ravioli as part of our feast. And why not, right? That's so distinctly American as part of this melting pot to celebrate the typical American traditions, but also add a little ethnic flavor to it as well.
Kirk (26:28)
Mine's a little similar. We're all getting together at my family home in Indiana, which should be a lot of fun with lots of family. And there's always two traditions that I've been told are Irish, as my family is Irish. But I've never actually gone back and confirmed. So maybe this is a good opportunity for me to ask some questions, Marian, and confirm. But we always do cheddar cheese with Apple pie, so like super sharp cheddar cheese to go on with the Apple pie. And then my grandmother insists that we continue, and this is possibly more English, but creamed herring, which I do not find appetizing, but we have it at every major holiday, Thanksgiving in particular. So those are a couple of things, but it's a great opportunity always to get together. And it seems like we always end up sharing family stories, too, where our families come from. And I'm sure that there are a few other Midwestern traditions we've thrown in there, but they're so part of my life, I can't even pick them apart anymore.
Mary (27:23)
Well, my family, we always start we break bread together, and we have to go around and say what we're thankful for. So you always want to be the last if the last person always gets stuck with this enormous honk of bread because everyone takes off this tiny little piece. But my mom insists on it. And as she says, we will remember it when I'm gone, you'll remember it. So we will definitely be doing that. And I'm thankful to work at the Bill of Rights Institute. I'm thankful for wonderful colleagues like you, Kirk and Tony, and Haley, our producer, who's not talking, but she's here with us, too. And I'm thankful for you, for our listeners. And I would love to hear your thoughts, your traditions for Thanksgiving or any thoughts or comments that you have on this episode or ideas for future episodes. You can write to us at comments@fabricofhistory.org until then, have a happy, healthy Thanksgiving and keep asking questions. Take care.
Speaker 5 (28:27)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website. Mybri.org any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We'd love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and don't forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.