Ghost Stories in American History

 Do you believe in ghosts? To kick off season four with spirit, Mary and Gary examine some of America's most haunting tales—both fiction and nonfiction—to discover larger revelations about our own humanity. Ghosts, spirits, phantoms, and apparitions: why do they have such a prominent role in our past and present?

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https://billofrightsinstitute.org/podcasts/ghost-stories-in-american-history

BRI's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/BillofRightsInst

Transcript

Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of History weaves together US history founding principles and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what's inside.

Haley (00:20)
Although CVS has had its Halloween display going strong since July, the start of fall is finally pushing us to think more about the bigger themes behind America's supernatural celebration. To kick off season four with Spirit, Mary and Gary examine haunting tales, both real life, and fiction, to understand the humanity they reveal. Ghosts, spirits, Phantoms, and apparitions. Why do they have such a prominent role in our past and present?

Mary (00:54)
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Fabric of History. I'm your host, Mary Patterson, and I am joined as always, by my co-host, Gary Colletti.

Gary (01:06)
Hello, Mary.

Mary (01:08)
Hello, Gary. How are you?

Gary (01:12)
Doing well, it is autumn and that is a great season.

Mary (01:15)
It is. So fall is my favorite season. I play favorites. I'm just going to come out and say it. We talked about in the earlier episode of The Fabric of History when we talked about school in America, how fall and this back to school time is sort of this internal rhythm, the changing of the seasons. Right. Targets got the candy out there's pumpkins everywhere. There's something about fall where things are getting chillier, things are getting darker, and I don't know, dare I say a little spookier. So I think the seasons, the change of the seasons, of course, you start to see Halloween things, and it is a really interesting idea about Halloween and ghosts. The day of the dead. You're seeing these things in lots of places. The war on pumpkin spice is beginning again. And are you pro? Are you against? Write to us, let us know. But I just think this idea of ghosts is really interesting, especially for us, the Bill of Rights Institute. We love history, and ghosts always have really interesting stories. So why not put the two together?

Gary (02:30)
Absolutely. Yeah. There's this great shared experience in our culture in the fall, wherever you are, sort of a generalized turn of attention to the spooky. That's the word that you used. Right. But there's an interesting twist on the history of what has happened in the past and how we remembering it when we talk about ghosts. And I think no matter where you are, you're often surrounded by either your local version. But I think there's also some common versions of ghosts that have appeared throughout American history and that we remember American history through it. So I think that's a great take on autumn in the fall.

Mary (03:14)
Yeah. I think it's worth exploring what is a classic American ghost story. And why do we have these stories that are very local and personal to our communities, perhaps even our own families? And then why do these stories endure? Why are we so fascinated with things that go bump in the night? I think that's worth a conversation.

Gary (03:35)
That is definitely I think we should get into it.

Mary (03:37)
Let's do it.

Gary (03:39)
Okay. So as often we do on Fabric of History, we like to clarify right from the beginning sort of what it is we're talking about. So the world of ghosts, apparitions, Phantoms specters, I think is a wide one and I would argue is kind of a spectrum. And I'm looking for a pun. The specter spectrum. There's something in there. But I think just to clarify and narrow down, I think that spectrum kind of ranges from vaguely uneasy causing, like, it just doesn't feel right if you go into a specific house or a specific place. Two, there might be unusual occurrences that happen, things that move about and can't be explained. There's the feeling of a presence, which I think is a very common experience, that at some point in someone's life they might have experienced a presence, heard a voice, maybe even seen something like way off in the distance. And sometimes there's encounters or interactions with the beyond, so much so that it even gets to the point where there's like hunting. Right. So we might even talk about there are places that reliably, you might spot some kind of occurrence that cannot be explained.

Gary (05:02)
That I think falls in a category. I don't think we're going to talk about things like doppelgangers or encountering visions of things of still-living people. I think we're specifically talking about occurrences involving those who have died, those from the past that are now in some way making connections with the living. Is that fair to say that's the realm of what we're talking about?

Mary (05:28)
Yes. The other piece that I think that is very interesting about this, you talked about this idea of feeling a presence or hearing a voice. So it's this interesting part of history. We're normally thinking with our intellect, our brain, but this is sort of much more of a visceral gut feeling. You just sense a presence. I think that's also an interesting part of what we're talking about is can you always explain this with your cognition or is it just a feeling that you have?

Gary (06:00)
That's a great way to put it, particularly since, again, this is a podcast that focuses on us, history and civics, and civic life. And you're right. I think we frequently are talking about those who have come before. We're talking about the humans who have been around and the narratives of their lives or in the cases probably today, their demise or something that they went through or things like that. But you're right. Often that's sort of choosing to do it right, doing research, understanding more, and that is fantastic for history. We love doing that. But I think what I'm hearing you say that makes ghosts and apparitions slightly different is sometimes you're visited by history that you weren't seeking.

Mary (06:48)
Yeah. I mean, history comes to you and you're not whether you want it or not. So I think that's sort of the recurring thread through a lot of stories of encountering something that you can't easily explain is that you weren't seeking out talking to a little girl that died 70 years ago. She came to you. So it's just an interesting I mean, we're all about stories. We're all about narratives. And these are really interesting stories. They endure. They stick with us in a lot of cases. Maybe they're unfinished. So it's this interesting Avenue of remembering someone who maybe we wouldn't have remembered in history books otherwise. But I think that if we're talking about ghost stories or is it this idea of sort of a spookiness or uneasy, creepy feeling goosebumps, there are definitely specific stories in American history that I think really set the pattern for this fascination with the other world or things that we can't quite explain with our brains in our heads. So I mentioned a little Victorian girl.

Gary (07:59)
Yeah, that didn't seem hypothetical.

Mary (08:01)
No, I was thinking of a very specific little Victorian girl known. Her name was Margaret Febrey. And she is known around Arlington, Virginia, which is where BRI is. Our office is in Northern Virginia, as the pool ghost. So as with all these stories, it starts with something unexplained. So in 2012, so very recently, there was construction being done at this nearby pool community pool. And the construction workers reported that they would often see this little girl in Victorian clothing climbing through the rubble and walking through the site.

Gary (08:44)
That is terrifying. If I could interrupt. So they weren't looking for this. It's not like they were like, oh, this is like they were just like, hey, there's a little girl here in Victorian clothing at our construction site, right.

Mary (08:54)
So very unexplained. And again, multiple people were seeing this. So it wasn't like one guy saw it and was like, maybe I need more coffee or something like that. But multiple people saw this. And so, again, it turns out that this little girl, the site where they're working on used to be the home of the Fabrey family in the 1890s. And there was a little girl there named Margaret who died in 1913. So again, this is a tragedy. The death of this young child died in her home. Later, the house was bought by another family, and it's turned into a Sanitarium in the 1940s. And when the house transfers to a new owner, these new owners heard music or voices so scary. Yeah, things they couldn't explain. And they also saw this little girl man. So Margaret clearly has an attachment to this site. And I think the coolest part or the spookiest part of this story is that a construction worker, fast-forwarding to 2012, a construction worker actually approached this little girl and was like, you got to get out of here. We're doing dangerous work and realized this is not like a little normal little girl.

Mary (10:15)
This is a ghost and he quit on the spot, quit when he realizes he's been talking to a ghost.

Gary (10:22)
This is my uncomfortable laughter because the chills on my neck and arms right now of like that idea is terrifying.

Mary (10:29)
Yeah, I have goosebumps. So again, we talked about this idea of it's not like something intellectually. You're like, well, this person died and she's not with us anymore. But you feel something like your body is reacting in a very real way. I can see the goosebumps. I can hear Gary's nervous laughter again. But it's an interesting story. We wouldn't have known Margaret's name. She would probably not be in a history textbook. It's terrible. It's a tragedy that's horrifying. But her story is unfinished in a way. She's just a little girl and she's still attached in some way to the site. It's very interesting. So I can't discount it. I'm not ready to say no. That's just utter nonsense.

Gary (11:20)
No, I think it tells us a lot about some commonalities in ghost stories in American culture. There are so many pieces of that that are, I think, really interesting. So if I could back up and sort of pick it apart, because that's kind of what we do here. Right. So one, there's lots of ghost stories out there, lots of stories across America. We picked this one because it is very close to us. Like you said, Arlington is where Bill of Rights Institute is. And locally, there are actually quite a number of stories in our area. We're near Alexandria, which has a lot of stories from the colonial era. And there's these ghost tours. But this one really sticks out as probably one of the more well-known local ones. So if you're somewhere across the country and you've not heard of Margaret Fabrey, that's understandable. Right. You may have your own local ghost who's very famous. A lot of people have encountered that. In fact, we'd love to hear if you do, you can write in to comments@fabricofhistory.org. We would love to hear a lovely story. We're very curious to sort of collect these stories from across America.

Gary (12:23)
But that being aside, there's this local tie. And then you mentioned she's close to a site. Right. And I think that's another commonality that often we imagine a house or a location, battlefields are very common. There are areas where something's happened, either to an individual or it could be the phrases if you do the research on it, phrases like it's wrought by the crisis of the area. So if there's like a battle that happened, a tragedy that often we'll see a lot more reports of these kinds of things. And that's an interesting question about this. Right. What is it about our memory of events happening to an individual or to a place that causes us to remember these things? But I think that leads to the next part, which is like you said, that construction worker you mentioned and others like they didn't go in looking for this girl. Right. They just saw one. But that was very inspiring to then say, wait, who is this person? And to do research that we normally would do in history. Right. What is the narrative of this life? What is the story of this area? And so it's almost a reversal, I think, as you were saying, Mary, we often think about doing research.

Gary (13:39)
Right. We often have a question. Well, this one started with this individual first and to learn more and more about them. And like you said, it's common for a very well-known person. Abraham Lincoln comes to mind as someone that people have reported seeing images of, but he's also very famous. Margaret is somebody who we still remember is now a local historical figure that it just gets passed down from generation to generation. And I think there's something really significant to that. So there's so many aspects. And then I think another aspect. So there's the place. There's the history and the research. There's the crisis. I think there's also the encounter. I think there's something here that in the story we said there's a spectrum. Right. Anything from a presence to actually speaking. In this case, you had interaction there's almost I think some of the phrases that come up when you do I think they call it psychical research, I think is the actual terminology for it. But when you take a look at this, the veil between the living and the dead is thinner or gone in some moments. And that's when there's this really and just to bring it back to what you were saying, Mary, this visceral connection between the living and the dead is huge in our culture.

Mary (15:01)
It is. I think it's a human thing first and foremost. But I think there's definitely sort of an American spin to it. And I think, like you said, this idea of the encounter as being the starting point. So it's the encounter that creates a question that makes you want to learn more.

Mary (15:27)
Hey, fabric of history listener. Learned anything new yet? At BRI? We have a lot more to share. Check out our YouTube channel in the description, where we dissect and discuss us history and civics with experts and teachers. We update weekly and would love for you to join the conversation. And now back to our podcast.

Mary (15:48)
If we're talking about like, an American ghost story, I think for me, I think for anybody, it's really the legend of Sleepy Hollow. It's the encounter of Ichabod Crane and encounters this quote-unquote Headless Horseman.

Gary (16:05)
Yeah, absolutely.

Mary (16:06)
I think what's really interesting about that story, so just if you're unfamiliar with the story of the legend of Sleepy Hollow, so it is written in it's published in 1819 1820 by Washington Irving in a collection of stories, a sketchbook. And the plot is that Ichabod Crane, he is a schoolteacher. He lives in Sleepy Hollow. It's a Dutch enclave on the Hudson River. He's very suggestible. He believes in ghost stories. And there is, again, this idea of a local ghost. So in Sleepy Hollow of the town, there is a tale of a Hessian mercenary from the American Revolution who lost his head from a cannon blast. And he is said to be looking for his head. So hence the headless Horseman. And so he believes that this is true. The other part of the story is that he is after Katrina Van Tassel, who is very wealthy. And there's another man who's interested in Katrina. So one night, his sort of rival Brom Bones tricks him. He basically follows him and throws a pumpkin at him. So Ichabod believes that he saw the Hessian ghost, but it was actually in the story. It was actually a human pretending to be a ghost.

Mary (17:21)
But again, this idea I think the idea of being afraid of fear or outstripping reality. I think that's what's so interesting about the story. Right. It's spooky. I remember watching the cartoon version. I was a little kid and it scared me. Oh, yeah, it was really scary. And again, that story and again, this idea of headless horsemen and pumpkins, it sticks with us in American culture.

Gary (17:48)
Absolutely. As I've mentioned in other podcasts growing up in New York, that's an annual tale that is told even though I was downstate. And that was sort of an upstate tale, that Sleepy Hollow, which is a real place you can visit, which, by the way, is extremely pleasant. If you ever do get another shout-out to towns across America, if you get a chance to go to Sleepy Hollow, it is quite pleasant. I've gotten there before, but yeah, again, there are these elements that are really interesting, like even in this story. Right. The soldier, like the idea that the tail already existed prior to Ichabod Crane and that it was wrought out of something like war soldier, something happened. So you're remembering the event, you're remembering what happened to this individual. And it's just part of even the imagery of a pumpkin. We now, as we frequently say, take for granted things, but the imagery of pumpkins around this time of year kind of all goes together. I agree with you in a really interesting way that is strangely comforting for something so unsettling. And I think the time period is part of it, too.

Gary (18:58)
Right. You mentioned you mentioned it was written in the early 1800s. And I think that also that there are these points in history that there's a connection that often happens, like often upticks of whether things being unsettled or culture developing a certain way that you're going to get more ghost stories or associated in certain ways. So that's a great example. The fact that it becomes part of literature now. Right. That it's so invited into our culture, I think is absolutely significant.

Mary (19:32)
Well, I think there's a couple of other things that are interesting about the headless horsemen or the legend of Sleepy Hollow to me. So first is that there's fear without anything actually evil happening, which I think that translates into our example of Margaret Febrey, too. It was tragic and awful that this little girl died young, but that wasn't evil per se. It was just a tragedy. And again, with Ichabod Crane being believing he saw the ghost, it was actually just a joke. Right. This other guy was trying to mess with him. So maybe that's not very nice, but I wouldn't say that's evil.

Mary (20:14)
Yeah. But it's still it's just a good story. It keeps alive this memory of these really interesting characters. I can identify with Ichabod Crane because I am easily scared by stories of ghosts. And also the story, the idea of a headless Horseman because he lost his head. Again, this moment of crisis in a time of crisis in the American Revolution, even though he's fighting for the wrong side as a Hessian, he would have been fighting for the British. But that's really interesting, too.

Gary (20:46)
Absolutely. I love that you're focusing on the idea that these encounters are not necessarily negative or harmful. They're just encounters and they can go back as far as you can remember. And you also said the value of remembering, the value of not only remembering the story but the people, as you're saying that I'm thinking about how a big part in American culture is Dia de Los Muertos. Right. The Day of the Dead. And this is not harmful. This is another moment where the veil between the living and the dead are thinner. A significant percentage of Americans celebrate this in a really meaningful way to really honor family members, usually, but also within communities, those who have passed. It is not a haunting. It is not a negative thing, but a moment to communicate, to leave gifts, to Cook special foods, to create that as you use the word visceral. But again, it doesn't have to be negative. That real bodily feeling of connection to someone who is dead or a group of people in a really meaningful way. And there's really something beautiful about remembering the people in the past in that way.

Mary (22:05)
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And I have it in a very kind of a silly, very Merry, Patterson sort of way, my own connection with Dia de Los Muertos so I knew of it, my family. I didn't grow up celebrating it or anything like that. I just sort of had a very nominal view of what it was. But after seeing the movie Coco, I was like, this is such a fast, this idea that as your memory fades, the person fades, I thought was so powerful. And I think that drove me that encounter with the movie Coco drove me to really learn about the holiday itself. And like you said, it's just this beautiful remembering what came before. And I think that again, it's not that it's necessarily an important President or I mean, it could be a President or it could be this important figure that we see in a history book. But I mean, history is also just everyday men and women. We make up the stories and just remembering your own personal piece of that and having a time to honor that and commune with that, as you said. I think that's really interesting. So I guess you talked about in the beginning of our conversation, Gary, you mentioned this idea of a spectrum of where you are on, oh, I absolutely believe in ghosts or oh, I regularly talk up with ghosts.

Mary (23:30)
I talk to ghosts. I have never myself had an encounter that I would say was with something like Margaret Febrey or something. I know plenty of stories. I went to a very old school. I had plenty of stories. I lived in an old area. Alexandria has tons of stories. And I work in the shadows of Margaret Febrey's home, but former home. But it's something that's been appealing to people for a very long time. It's been part of an American culture for a very long time.

Gary (24:04)
I think that's a great point. Why do you think I'm putting you on the spot? Why do you think it endures in the way that it does? You just said it definitely is. Again, this is with our theme of reversal, right. The premise is it does endure. So why do you think that's the case?

Mary (24:19)
I think it endures because I think we want to know the outcome. We want an end to a story. We're very curious what happens or what's going to happen. And I think in a lot of these stories, they were cut short in some way. A cannon blasted your head off or you died tragically young or there was some other sort of tragedy to sell you. So the story wants to be finished but can be finished. So it's up to us to think about that. And I also think it's this idea of the feeling. It's very important to use logic and reason. We are reasonable human beings, but our feelings are gut. This visceral sense, our gut is our second brain. Researchers are now saying, I don't think it can be discounted that if there's some sort of feeling, maybe there's more. There that's my two cents.

Gary (25:21)
I do love that. That's a really nice way to put back to how we started this whole conversation about the impacts of these stories, that it is an interesting combination of feeling and thought. There's an experience, and that leads to research and wanting more, which then leads to like you said, it's almost like a song whose last couple of notes aren't finished. It's this experience of needing it to finish, I think is a great perspective on it. And so sometimes it's starting with the ending is often how that happens, starting with the event and then going backward.

Mary (25:57)
Yeah, they're stories of everyday people. It's a way to remember an everyday person and it's got that appeal of the unknown, the beyond these timeless questions human beings have been asking forever. So yeah, the story on ghost stories will continue. As Gary said, we love stories here at the bill of rights Institute. So we would love to know your story. So do you have a local ghost? A local haunting? Is there a story you could share with us? We would love to hear it at comments@fabricofhistory.org and perhaps we could share it on a future podcast. So local ghost story? Send it to comments@fabricofhistory.org. Oh, my God.

Gary (26:50)
What was that?

Mary (26:50)
What was that?

Gary (26:52)
I don't know.

Mary (26:54)
I think we got to go. Goodbye, everybody.

Intro/Outro (27:03)
The bill of rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website. Mybri.org any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We'd love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and don't forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.