Brian Snyder is founder of Beyond Day Zero which is dedicated to creating a society free of the fear of freedom by helping formerly incarcerated individuals achieve true redemption, eradicate the stigma associated with being formerly incarcerated, and reduce the recidivism rate in the United States of America.
Brian Snyder is founder of Beyond Day Zero which is dedicated to creating a society free of the fear of freedom by helping formerly incarcerated individuals achieve true redemption, eradicate the stigma associated with being formerly incarcerated, and reduce the recidivism rate in the United States of America.
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Nature Breakthrough. Dr Wild Ben Goldman Conversations with change makers In a world gone mad to discover what you need for personal, organizational and societal change, get your free downloads of three ancient ritual smart entrepreneurs used to bounce back from shifts in market inside themselves. Good. W w dot nature breakthroughs dot You Write down that you will through my down money work, cause I just want to be free. Thank
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you. Thank you for having me here.
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This is my fourth nature breakthroughs Podcast. I'm delighted that you have come to join the 1st 1 I've done in my studio.
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It's an honor, a privilege.
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This is actually my studio's. Although it's not recording studio create, Make All my creations.
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It's very it's very quiet here. Could feel the energy here that just do just that and create. And I think that's really important to have the space to do that so I could feel that here. So it's nice.
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It's like my man cave. Yes, absolutely. Definitely. I need one of us can't survive without it. Um, so, um, you know, I was interested to meet you. We met at a forest bathing correct event. So what brought you to forest bathing,
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so there's the nice little story behind that. But I was introduced to Brooke, who is the founder of Cultured Forests, which was holding that event that day. And I was introduced to her by a gentleman who used who's currently the director of the program that I attended college. Sir, I attended college do this program after being released from prison. So I was incarcerated for some period of time. During that time, I got involved with college education programs that were available. And then once I was able to get in, I got introduced to a gentleman who was coming into the facility, basically just bring education to people. And his idea was that he wanted to build a bridge between people coming home from prison and higher and higher education. So for your institutions, um, he was, uh, associate professor of Japanese history at Rutgers in New Brunswick. Um and so he started the program. I met him through that well story short with that, I ended up being able to its in college and director of the program now was at an event one day and sent me a text, said he ran into somebody who was talking about things that he heard me speak about. And I had to do with forest therapy in things, things around reminding there in that nature. Um and so he told me he was like, Oh, you have to get this book. Here is the title of the book. Here's the author. Now he doesn't tact and text me often. So when you text me about this, I was kind of thrown because I'm in the middle of tryingto already work on the project I have been working on. And then he comes along with this book and it was called Forest Bathing and by Dr Singly, and I was like, I read the book. So I saw the book first cause he sent me the title of and I looked it up and I was like, This is really strange because this kind of along the lines of what I'm already working on I was like, This is really interesting. Yeah, sure, I'll get the book. And then he explained to me how he met, broke at an event, and he sent me a picture of her business card as well. So I got the book first because I felt that it was more important at the time. Um and I picked it up, read it. And I'm like, get this. This is what I felt like I was already working on. Didn't have a name for it. Well, fantastic exists already. Has a name, a term and has researched behind it. And not just minimal passive research. With 30 years of research and I was blown away, I was like, This is this is fantastic. And I automatically reached out to Brooke afterwards that look like her a little bit. Found out exactly what she was doing with culture. Forest reached out to her set up to go on the forest bathing session with her in Central Park. And that was in the beginning of December. And since then, I've been in contact with her and she had told me about the event. I came to that event, and that's how I met you there.
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So back, back up a little more. So let me just make sure I understand. So, uh, there was a professor at Rutgers who who taught Jap Japanese
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Japanese history
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history? Yes. And he came into the prison system to, uh, to get people to come into higher education out after they left prison. Well, at first I was like
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he was going in to teach
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him. So
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he just said he was helping students, you know, work towards their TT their high school diploma. But then what he found is that he realized a lot of the individuals that he was going there to teach about, You know, high school level issues were much more capable handling a higher level education. And so that's where we started to put some or the college level programming. Which one of this up?
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We have 1/3 guest. Yes. Next match. Be quiet. New best friend. Don't Wait. So left. Um So, uh, so when you when you say you were already working on related things, this was You mean after you got out of prison? Correct? On what? What? When we were talking about.
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So I was released from prison in 2012. February
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2012.
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This this February 20th is actually eight years since I've been home.
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And and, uh and so when you left prison, you started doing something
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right away. So when I first was released. I ended up getting in contact with the professor's, was coming into the facilities and started the program that he was working on with us. Who is? Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. His name is Dr Donald Rodent voted on and he started what? It was initially called the Mountain View Project. Oh, and it was named after the facility that he was going into a trial amount. Would you used correctional facility?
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Okay. And so that's where he met you.
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Well, that's where he started the program. I actually met him in a different city. OK, OK, because he had spread out by then so far on the program. Uh, so that program I was already involved with before I was the winner, it's released. I got in contact with him and we worked on everything else I need to do to potentially get started. Eso actually started that fall at Rutgers. That's an undergraduate continuing with the credits I had already received. At that point, some of the programming I did inside
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awesome. And but then that led you to developing this program in nature or
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yes, but it was something that had already started in the sense and so that it goes back to which house it. Before I was locked up, I grew up in a isolated part of the town. So the town where I grew up in his really industrial town,
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this is like mid jersey.
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Correct? Yes. And so in that town section where I lived was on one side of the railroad tracks and further down this long road by. And there was a few houses there, maybe six or seven houses stuck between a steel factory, a cemetery, a small patch of woods with the railroad tracks behind it, and then other factories and industrial businesses on the other side, where just or that industrial area. So there I only had a few houses. They're so our playground growing up was that little patch of woods right behind our house, a zealous the other areas around, but that always held some stressful for me on Ben. Also, during some summer times we would go to the Poconos and go to vacation up there on the campgrounds. And so my parents at the time they had times there, so we would go up there in the summer and spend time so again that pulled me back into that environment where I usually would find peace.
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I never had 1/3 guest Max would make awaiting, which must sit down right now. I could lock him up. They may start warning. Sit, sit. Become. So, um Come on. Oh, yeah. Eso you had There was Patra Woods. And yes, you had so camping with the kids.
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Yeah, I was always exploring whether it was that patch of woods behind the house or we go up to the Poconos for vacation campground. And I would always go out and explore and always felt some type of deeper connection to the world around me where I felt much more at peace than I did in the other parts of the world where he lived at, um And so it was always a place where I would be a mom. I grew up my brother and meet him and I would always be trying to find interviewing. If Woods weren't close or some type of area like that, we would go and find it and get lost and just have fun Explorer and just just being present in that moment and enjoying the time um, but never really looked at it is anything more than what it was because of your kids. Oh, but in my life, too, a bunch of different turns that when we have being in prison and guess
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what age.
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So I was in another trouble growing up was it was in all kinds of this is whether it was at home or at school or with the police. And, um, eventually it was I have been spent time in the youth house. So it was like there was, like, in and out periods, whether it was going to do in our detention center, being at the Behavioral Health Center, just different institutions where I would kind of bounced around from. But then after a few months after I turned 18 ended up getting in trouble to police again, another situation. And it was that at that time, a lot of things came to the light that occurred in my life at that time, and I ended up having to go and spend time in prison. So I ended up doing 10 years total. So it was from 18 28.
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You say things came to the light. You mean old old
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old incidents where, you know, there was incidents that happened, were so they I committed a crime.
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You mean they came to light of the correct police?
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Find out correct. So please find out about it. And so I suppose it was a lot of things happened at one time.
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Passed, like, caught
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off, Correct? That's a great way, buddy. So and it all came together, and then it was just at that point, I was I knew I was going to jail. I didn't know exactly how long, but even at that time, once in a while the dust settled and I was going to do 10 years. I was just like, Okay, I'm just gonna do 10 years. It's hard to conceptualize that in your head, especially at that age, how I was 18 and, um, I wasn't sure you know exactly how that was gonna go for me, but I had just mentally prepared for it. I've dealt with situations like this before. It will be fine. But during that time and a lot of I've been to four different prisons Williams for, um but around all of them they're usually tucked away behind trees or no, There's usually a tree line somewhere that you can see, and I'd always be able to see that that would be me gazing out the window. Sometimes passing time is just staring into the trees. So it was always still even in connection, even men. But then I got away from it a little bit when I came home because I got so caught up in trying to catch up to living a normal life again and try and figure out what I need to dio and learning how to be an adult all over. Well, not well for the first time, really, because I had This was my first time being out in society, and then at this age, where I'm have also people looking at me and expecting me to be a certain way. But after that amount of time in there, you don't wrote socially,
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you do the full time,
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Yes, and so it was 10 years Street, and you don't grow socially. So I came home like, you know, 18 year old 28 year old, and I had to like ways the war between the 2 15 days like one's gonna win out at certain times whether it's being young and in majority and making, uh, really impulsive decisions or being the 28 year old, where have you much more mature, more reserved and but have to learn how to be that way. So I didn't It was different at that time. Um, but as I mentioned before being involved with the program, I ended up starting at Rutgers that fall. So I started undergraduate there was taking classes and going to that life. So now it's to me. It was like another institution where I'm in class and doing other things. And it's just another place where I'm at in function with the Net. That frame, Um, but during that time, I'm also still trying to adjust to, you know, living free. And I still had five years of parole supervision after I came home. So there was still that I'm free, but im not free. Um, and never times I wanted to get away, but I felt like I couldn't because I had to report to somebody. Um and I didn't always make the best choices. So I got getting Children caught up in quite a few incidents and one of them landed me in a program. So it was basically I had to get to be proactive and realized I have a wake up call like I need to actually take responsibility from my life and what I'm doing in my life and stop allowing everything that happened in the past to keep holding me back. It's like I just allow it to sit there and just block me from everything that I could and should be doing with my life. And it was always remaining there. So there was, um it instant toe happen. It was a d y. Nobody got hurt. Fortunately, it was just me. Um, but I didn't realize that I woke up. Uh, the last thing I remember was taking a side of the bar. And the next thing I remember, I was handcuffed to a wall in a police station with three cops are gonna be trying to talk to me. Um, I lost several hours at night.
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Yeah, the car have an accident?
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Yeah, well, I was driving, but I was driving really slow, like 10 miles an hour on a police officer saw me creep by on, got behind me and but the lights on was trying to get me to pull over and hit the curve on this side and then just went across the bolts lanes because it was a four lane. But I was There was two lanes going one direction and and I slowly trip to this side and then ended up going into a pole. But it was really slow. So it wasn't like a high speed accident, anything. But it was just That was just my level of intoxication at the time. And I only I only know that because I saw the dash cam video. Okay, so otherwise I wouldn't have been able to see what happened. And that was that was a big wake up call for me. Um, but I ended up getting involved. There was a program that was located centrally with in New Brunswick. So is right there had I'll pee program that I could intensive outpatient program that I could attend that was satisfied my requirements for parole because of that incident give me a place to stay because I had assisted living and they didn't. They had meetings several times a week. You had to goto a rent a program several times a week did activities on the weekend. So it's it's full immersive program. It was mostly for people who suffer from addiction or other mental health issues. And so I got involved with that. I was able to get into the program and they had activities. And except for around the weekends, we'll take you to do something as a group with everybody in that community. And one day one of those activity was going on a hike. We went to the Catskills to Slide Mountain, and we got there and it was just a van full. But he was two vans, maybe, but he wears a bunch of us that we're all in that program and people go to all types of different issues and, you know, life problems that want them up let ended up with them being there.
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Men and women are all
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correct. And so, uh, get out there to go hiking our director at the time of the program, our leader, Frank, he he gets out there, and he's not waiting for anybody who's like I'm gonna go, go hike super high energy is ready to go. And he just looked right, but not for everybody. So you get a This is what we're doing. This is the path to get there. Keep up if you can, Um, and just totally. If you've been on hiking in a big room, people never really stay together. Everybody breaks up into their own little paces. And the slow group out of everybody that was there were the people that I was closest to in the program. And so I think I'll stay with them, even though I I wanted to go ahead and I was like, No. Okay. They kept they kept trying to quit, and I wanted to give up, and I'm just like, I'm gonna make it like we're just gonna be views. And so the all type of stuff, it's not gonna be just like this. And I understand it might be hard or you're tired or you don't want to be here any of that. But it'll be worth it. Like I feel like it's gonna be worth it. We just have to keep going. And I'd like I didn't want to give up because I wanted to get to the top. I want to get that wherever everybody else is gonna be. And so you know, But I didn't want to leave. Leave them behind either. But I don't think 17 and we just kept going, and we didn't get enough to the one look out to the bunch of pictures at a great time. Um, about a year later, they had the graduation ceremony for that program I had. I left the program, but I was working there overnights at this time and was working to the overnight housing tech and the other guys reason ceremony where I was part of because I was part time after I
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graduate. They hired you,
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right? Yes. Yep. Video for me. I was able Teoh apply for the position to the overnight. So it's just a person who is there making sure nobody is not doing anything they're not supposed to be throughout the course of the night. That's pretty much of that person. This, um and so during the ceremony, you know, they end up calling my name. Frank was up there in front, talking on the microphone, and he brought up the hike and he's good for that. You hold remember moments and things. He's he'll be able to bring him up and talk about who he was talking to. It's pretty amazing talent. Um, but he brought up the hike and he mentioned how I think next day or so some of the other clients spoke with him because he asked him ago. Did you enjoyed I How was it? Would you want to go again? They really You know what we were So what I told you know when I said you take the height and shove it, But the only reason we got to the top because Brian pushes and, well, we got up dearly. We saw the did a lot for us, and so he was able to speak on that to a room full of people, and I didn't even know that he or anybody else looked at it like that. So it was just It was almost like a natural thing And just, you know, just really organic moment that happened night. I didn't realize how much it impacted the other people, but I also didn't realize how much it impacted me as well to hear about it afterwards. And so it was something like I really held onto, made me it made me feel good about myself. I mean, we feel like, you know, this possibility for me to do something good in this world and with this life that I have, um, and that it fast forward, you know, another year, two or year and 1/2. And I was back to being miserable because I was working. Graduated college. Um, I was out of the program. I finished parole. I have nothing holding me back or stopping me at all of this world except for money. Resource is and finances available to me that that'll set my limitations for what I can do, in a sense, um, but I realized I got caught up in this rat race where I'm getting up every day and going to the gym and then going toe work to sit in an office all day on a computer, doing a job that I'm not exactly like thrilled about. It is not my passion. I'm sure there's other people I love to do this kind of work, but then also struggled with I should be grateful, regardless, because of my past in history, to be in the position that I'm in right now, it's almost unheard of, So I should be happy. But I'm not. And a lot of other things going on in life. There's I'm still learning about life. I'm still learning how to be an adult. And at the time, you know, two years ago I was 34 years old and thinking like, Is this all my life is gonna be And again I should be happy because of where I waas, But it wasn't enough for me. I felt like I should be doing something where I don't know what. And so I wanted to get away as far as I possibly could, and it just happened be around my birthday, which is two days before Christmas, and I was gonna be off from workers and feel that I work in. We're off for winter break, so I'd be often in that time, so I was like, I have nobody to answer to right now. I'm just going to disappear. I'm communicated with some people who I knew would be concerned if I just disappeared. So I like to know him going away for a week back. Don't worry about me. Um, you know, Merry Christmas. Happy new year. All that good stuff was, um and I went to the castle's. I found a spot that was like a little cottage out there dead in the middle of the Catskill Mountains where nobody would find me. And, um, I spent the week just going to different spots, hiking all different times of the day in May and just trying to get in touch something, trying to find some answers from my life. I didn't find any of those answers, but I felt like the trip was completely wasted because I felt like I didn't fully immersed myself as I wanted. Teoh. I feel like I was still holding onto too much of everything I walked away from. Um, so I wanted to go again, because again, I wasn't. I was just felt like it was a very dark place. And I wasn't happy. My life, really, which is getting more miserable. And then that misery starts to turn. Why am I here? If this is home, my life is going to be and I'm gonna consider refusal. Why? I said I even continue to live and then start questioning life, contemplating death and wanting to die, but knowingly I don't really have the balls to kill myself. Not sure I could do that. Feeling that takes some deeper, the some deeper grasp of what you're actually doing. And some people give it credit for.
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Maybe didn't have the will.
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That could be,
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which isn't the same thing. It's not having the balls Well, that's how it seemed to
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me like it was almost like I wanted to die. But I didn't have it in me to do it to myself like I wanted somebody
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or made. Maybe it doesn't mean what you think it margin
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might not.
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Maybe something had to die, but it wasn't your cheese. It wasn't your entire being that had done.
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I feel like I'm coming to that realization now, but at the time that that's where I was at. And
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sometimes when we have that dark, when the darkness settles in, the only way out is to go into the dark.
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That's exactly it. And thats does when you actually where I'm at today where I'm realizing that now, Um, but again, at that time it was almost in my end, and I'm just like I need to get away again. And so I have this group from chat with. Some friends of mine were like brothers, but they were also when they went to the same programs me. So they were all incarcerated to formally, um, and I put in there, I was like, Hey, I'm gonna go for a hike this weekend. Does anybody want to come with me to whom came with me? They don't know where we're going or whatever they just knew. I said, I
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think some of the guys that didn't want to go in the first tiger
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Yeah. No, no, no. This is This is their different. So this this one where I said to go on a hike that group said, Those are close personal friends. The other ones were people doing. Some of those are still friends to me. But that was just in the program. Um, so but again, go up to the Catskills figure. That's like the closest spot that I could really get toe a nice deep hike where as you're driving and you lose service. So you're losing that connection from the craziness of the world. And that's what I wanted to the cat. Catskill Mountains seemed to be like the closest Easy is easily accessible. Um And so we go up there and we actually had to cut that first tight sort. It was Winter Times, February again. A lot of things happen in February, and here we are. It's February again. Um, But this was also in February 2 years ago, and it was snow were out there, and they're just like, What are we doing? What is this hiking stuff? Not about this lifestyle. And I'm sorry. No, we're gonna go. But it was like they were constantly complaining. But then the next day, I get a text. When are we going again? We'll go next weekend. I'm not doing nothing. Let's go. So they wanted to go, so I was happy. They wanted to go again. So we just went. And this time one of it further, we got caught in a snowstorm on that one. So it was a little bit wilder, but after you, as we got back to the car like you can see the car in the parking lot Now, one of my friends let out this lake roar, flee like I am men, and I just accomplished something like loud, triumphant roar of accomplishment, and it resonated with me. But I also knew in that moment I wanted that to happen again. I wanted him to do that again, like I wanted him to feel that all the time. And I'm like, How can I do that? Well, where did that come from? That came from this trip and yeah, it didn't happen the first time. But other stuff happened along the way. It was a different experience, Um, but he was also had been already introduced to it. So now he's going in and he's actually immersing himself to second time, as opposed to the first time just going on how you can not really understanding what's we're doing here. And I felt that really benefit from that. Um, and then I started to look at a lot of different areas of my life. I enjoy being out in nature. It's a repetitive thing over the course of my life in some form, Um, I'm looking at the support group that I go to once a week for people that are in the program going to college, that they have a space they can sit and talk to at the University once a week. I'm looking at the group chat of Michael's friends. Who one does works has, ah, clothing line that you put another one Does I t. Another one phone is, uh, social worker like there's all these different pieces and I'm starting like, what brings going overdrive trying to fit all together, like, how come you all work together and they're talking about trying to come up with different businesses and anything to just enjoy the life that we have in the light that we have remaining to us. And as I'm thinking of all these different things, I end up coming up with this idea of having deep, open and profound conversations on guided hikes. And there's two other guys in that group of reduction companies that film, and they're getting trying to get that off the ground, and I'm a guy and they could film it. And then we can share these stories on these adventures, and we can help people and in turn help ourselves. And now this is just a mutually beneficial thing, Nick that, like everything can come from that, and we can kind of find the answers to the questions that we all had and solutions to the problems that we were experiencing. And I felt like every I felt he was the answer to everything. Um, but of course, I was trying to dive into it headfirst without checking. You know how deep the pool this, um and I ran into a lot of roadblocks along the way, but little things would happen, Like the director texting me about the forest bathing book and introducing me to that I'm like, this is kind of where I was at, but a long prior to that, you know, I took a I got introduced to this program where they were going to, uh it was a small, small business entrepreneurship class just for formerly incarcerated people that they were. It was a pilot program. They were looking for people to do it. So I introduced Joined. I came with my idea. This is what I want to do. And I worked with them over the course of nine months to basically bring the business to fruition out of it. Um, and that's where I'm at now. With beyond a zero is that I'm I started to look it in the rest of my life overall and everything else that allowed me to get to the point where I'm at today and that goes back to being in nature as a kid. Um, being introduced to yoga, meditation and breath work while in prison through a book. There was a book called We're All Doing Time From the Human Kindness Foundation, booking their stories about people who are also locked up and how they dealt with it in different issues that we're dealing with. But it was always bringing you back to yourself and understanding. Doing in the darkness wait out is to go dive in head first. And so that's where I started to really practice yoga, doing light meditation. I that was much more difficult for me to do, especially in prison. Yoga was easy to dio, and I was like, I could do this and and I felt great and I'm like so But the thing was, I was still in prison. I don't want people see him. You do this in here. So my practice was on and off, depending on how much privacy add often wasn't much, so I didn't do it too much outside unless I had a single cell. But when I came home, you know, get back involved with it. You know what that program I was telling you about when we took us on hiking? They also yoga, So I got back involved with that. Now I'm starting to actually take more responsibility of my life and where I'm at and all the things I'm not happy about I have to understand. Like I have the power to meet, to take responsibility and make the changes that I want to see in my life And what in the world to that makes me. The more I'm looking at it, the more I'm realizing all the chaos around that I'm seeing the world is actually all the chaos going inside me affecting my perception. No. So I just kept going back to the bar to keep going back to the woods. I didn't know again what forest bathing wasn't. So I was introduced to the book, but we've been on several hikes and I just kept trying to bring division that was coming to meet a life as much as possible because every time we go would go, I would always get to text the next day. When are we going again? And that that kept me going That kept pushing me like as many times that I wanted to give up over the course of the whole process is it's definitely a draining one, but that's I understand the power that is there behind it. It's just a matter of getting into a position to be able to bring it to as many people as possible. And so that's kind of my my direction where I'm going with it right now.
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And how do you have it? Uh, I mean, where What's the next step? With its a bit, it's you're setting it up as a business.
spk_1: 34:06
So yes, so it's right now. It is said to be a business
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called Beyond Daisy.
spk_1: 34:12
Correct. And so it's to provide those no, those guided hiking adventures Andi, incorporating the wellness practices what they said, such as yoga,
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strictly for the formerly incarcerated.
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So that's that's the target those attached to population that I'm looking to serve and help directly most because that's where I met. And I feel like I'm I am the person that I'm trying to help. So I know that person best that would be my targeted. However, there people that come on high. So those who we're never incarcerated date just happened. Know somebody. There's other people who are otherwise justice involved. They might not have been incarcerated, but they know somebody who waas There is half a family member they might have, Ah, parent that's currently incarcerated. So it really depends in I'm I'm still toying around with a lot of different structure. So worry if I want to work with, you know, go on, take Children. I kind of want them to be to mixed in with adults and then other people because everybody's on their on their own level. And they need their own level of type of program that they would have in the type of height that they would go on and things that occur. So for me to structure that right now, but as it is right now, it's It's like Papa Pikes. Like I say, we're going on a hike and people come out until I get a fully structured. So is all working, progressing.
spk_0: 35:33
So are you currently offering this in our your chart?
spk_1: 35:39
I have charged I have in charge.
spk_0: 35:41
You working directly with consumers. Are you doing it with institutional partners?
spk_1: 35:46
So it's a little bit of it's a little bit of everything that you just said, except I haven't charged anybody yet. The business was officially formed, so it does exist legally. But I have in charge anybody yet in the reason because into that, because when I as I was going into it, it's set up the way it is the legal structure of its set up with the LLC. So it said it was a for profit business, but I'm not going into it for the profit per se. I was also looking to like social entrepreneurship where, yes, there's profited Bob, but the profits going towards the people on the planet and so having those three piece aligned in that way,
spk_0: 36:23
I mean, there's a lot of, like legal structures. Yes, it is correct. I'm someone that's had a lot of experience with anyone because I've done I've been executive both in a non profit community and in the for profit, and I've I tried very hard to create hybrids
spk_1: 36:42
does actually a lot that it wants to speak with you and hear from you to about because I did read about Sue for coming here, and I was asleep. I was like this and somebody I would love to speak to more because there's so much I don't know.
spk_0: 36:55
Well, I mean, the main, the main different differences. If you're doing something with social mission, unless you think it's going to generate huge profits, the main effect of not being a nonprofit is that your cut out of all kinds of terrible sources of funding So you can still do all of the normal, uh, business you can charge for services you can, you know you can charge for your time, right? You could do all the stuff that you would is an LLC, but you can't ask someone Well, but But if someone gives you money, uh, they can't take a tax deduction current. And so if you're a nonprofit, you can have programs where you're charging people. But you can also go to Rutgers or go to an institutional partner like foundation on naked. They can actually give you money to support support it so that you can let's say, either provided for free provided discounted. You could you know, in other words, you can have. Ah, contract. Let's say, with prison, uh, where you bring, Bring some of this, uh, some related programming into the prison with prison pays for or were foundations that is concerned about the president. Population pays for it. And you could get paid just in the same way as you could as an LLC, but they could get a tax deduction for giving you on its Not that much harder to to have a non profit for profit. I mean, with my Wallich a weekend. I've also not made it a nonprofit. Um, you know why? Because I'm still kind of in a startup very much a start up mode. Where and for me, a startup is basically, like a hypothesis testing machine on, and the hypothesis that I have is, um it's a little more. There's a little more of a kind of linea agent and a structure to what I'm doing. And so it's the same. It's funny when I talked to Brooke Melon because I went to one of her for his bath, and I'm like, this is this is what I had the same reaction. This is what I knew about fourth baby before It wasn't a a new the contact to me, but I thought, This is like a perfect I think, but she But it was funny. Her reaction to what I offer was that they were actually quite different and that they would attract different people because I take people into the woods for a well, it's I call it like we could call it like a forest fast a supposed to a force bath, and it's more of a of an ordeal, Um, and it's more intense, and it's more in line with what you were talking about, which was, You know, you've hit rock bottom. It doesn't have to be the chief hit rock bottom, but you're facing a change. You're stuck. Your don't quite know where to go next. It could be also, your face is facing an opportunity. You're you're facing a challenger, and this is the traditional kind of ancient technique for dealing with change, for dealing with transition. It's also called like a rite of passage, which would usually associate with, you know, adolescent to adulthood, but it can be used at any for any kind of transition. It can be used for, you know someone dying can be used for the forest. It can be used for changing careers could be used for any major, you know, exiting prison. I mean, it could be used for, you know, recovery where, where it's it's very much like what you're talking about. You basically face yourself in in nature, and but it's very there's a structure to it is not Uh uh which your you intuitively I knew what that structure was. I don't know how you knew that, but I think we all know it. You think it's now, but the thing is, is it's It's also, uh, we don't have. We don't have to just I think we all have to discover it. But thing is, is that these? Their traditions that are based exactly on doing this and forced bathing is more. You know, I would say it's fantastic and but it's like, what What are what we do in the kind modern world is, Everything is kind of like a light version. So how, like mindfulness is kind of like a light version meditation or doing the art sinners in yoga. It's kind of like a light version of yoga, which has a deep spiritual community and forth bathing. Uh, you know, it is similar. I do think it is ultimately rooted in these traditions of rite of passage, but they've left the ordeal out and and, um, to make it palatable. And you know what I'm trying to in my thing is t to compress it into, ah, weekend, you know, whereas usually it would take more time for this kind of thing. So I'm tryingto you know. So in some ways I see the fourth Bathing is this is a gateway on Ben. What I'm doing is kind of like a deeper step. And then there's an even deeper step where you know, where they might call it. A vision quest, revision fast, which could take weeks or longer. And I don't know why I started telling my story, but that's no so
spk_1: 42:50
great to hear.
spk_0: 42:52
That's how it's connecting. I forgot what you said that Oh, I know in terms of business model. So I created this wild call weekend, having just testing the concept of Can I get people to come into the woods with its Not easy, especially if they don't know me. And that's the other thing about having a nonprofit, which may be where I need to go with this and I Hi wonder whether it wouldn't be a good idea for you. I don't know, but is that is that there's a legitimacy. You know, there's an aspect of being a for profit, where you're kind of alone and, well, you're you know, you're an independent operator and, um, people are suspicious, you know that you're trying to make a buck off for them. And in fact, it's a big resistance in the, you know, like some some of what What I'm doing goes back, back, back, back, back to to primitive times and were, Let's say to, you know, beyond before ancient traditions to like indigenous and aboriginal and native traditions. And you know, there's there's some many people that think that that you should never charge money for that kind of them or you shouldn't get you know you should get rich from it. I say there's different perspectives on them. I think shamans and stuff there have been ways, obviously, for them to be compensated for their working back, lying in your old old old days and you know we live in the society we live in. The question is, do you forget? Do you leave that stuff behind, which is what we've done And I think to great, uh, ruined because And I think the experiences you're talking about that happened to you and that have happened in the young men and women all over the country and all over the world. A lot of it is due to the fact that we have that most of us have never experienced this kind of a rite of passage. So we don't know how to be eight, and we don't know why way don't know. You know what you speak told by some kind institutional authority, What's the difference between right moon? But it's not in our bones, and we don't would understand our connection to other people in our connection to the earth.
spk_1: 45:09
That's and that's I think that's the important pieces, the connection that we're missing, you know, especially there's. There's people I've been on heights with who literally sit there and talk about what that experience was like for them. It's not just like I feel like I took being in nature for granted for so long until I realized how important it was to other people. I still one thing I would always be able to hold on to is that that sense of all where you're just like I'm blown away by existence. I don't pretend to understand what any of it means, but it's amazing, and I can trigger that at any moment. And being on a hike is that's where it's really for me. It's It's the easiest to Dio because the minute you get to a clearing and you're able to see how small we really are in this world, then it makes every kind of come into perspective a little bit better. Um, but, uh, feedback I would get from other people, know about how the air smells or thinking about, you know, seeing if it's started. This amount of stars they would see like this is what is the whole new streets think? I didn't know this existed beyond light pollution like that's a People understand how how especially in this area, how bad the light Felicity's here, that you actually, when it's nighttime, you're not seeing what you should be saying, So that's another aspect. But But it's taken lack of connection to the earth, to the world around us and then toe each other.
spk_0: 46:44
And I think, you know, instead of those experiences people, uh, you know when we feel the whole of something's missing. But, you know, people turn to drugs and alcohol and cell phone, you know, uh, just faced, you know, like looking Facebook. And faces are just entertainment, you know, like, you know, just and money. You know, the pursuit of money, even if that means violating other people's rights. You know, Andi on it becomes a desperate craving on violence, right? I mean, the rush of violence and that kind of that the ordeal of violent, you know, it's all like, misplaced energy to get the kind of well, it's not just connection with other people. It's also connection with life force, right? And it's it's a connection with Why am I here and what is my power and right? I
spk_1: 47:52
mean, haven't haven't. There's, ah, I actually sit there and say I have had that existential crisis where I'm would have a hyper aware moment of that. I'm a living being walking the face of this earth independently of everything else yet still connected to everything that's here. It's terrifying to think about it that way because when you start to look at yourself that way, it's you're starting to see yourself in a completely different light, and it's almost as if you become alien to yourself. They started trying to figure out where you actually fit in this world, which your purposes that you're here to be doing. How do you find out what that is? How did you know? You already haven't missed that train. And I have dealt with that on so many different levels and continues. I'm not speaking from a pedestal any where I'm at in life. I struggle on a daily basis now just to continue doing what I'm doing and just not give up. I mean, that's what that's ultimately, where I'm at, I'm not trying to give up on making the most of dis life that I do have here and going back to what you talked about the business models and my my concern with going in this business. I'm like, Oh, somebody's gonna steal my idea like that was the thing. I have this idea and I have to like, bring it to fruition in and do something with it because somebody else in the cooperative, not realizing people, doing similar things all over the place. But just like, you know, there's different kinds of water that you can purchase at the supermarket. This it's whatever what was everyone you're more comfortable with, whichever one fits for you and how you connect with it. And if that's the past, that works best for you to get you to connect back to yourself to others around you, into the world around you. I'm all for it, Um, but we just have to live in this world. In the world that we live in is based on making somebody and having ownership of something, because if you have any ownership, er of anything, what you're worth and that's where I think that's if that's what you're trying to do, trying to bring that type of service to somebody. I mean, I'm When I was in the business class, my financial coach asked me for your percentages. What's your percentages of? How much percent do you want to make money? How much percent do you want to help people? And I told him, like my dream car is an Aston Martin. One day before I leave this world, I would love to at least drive it at some point in my life. One of those cars but the have one what that would be, you know, fantastic thing for me in my life. But looking at it from nasty point, how important money and then how important it is helping people my gonna be happier if I leave the world with billions of dollars or am I going to leave the world happier because my presence and my existence in this life on this planet positively affected others around me,
spk_0: 51:02
and you don't even have to be that extreme of I mean, it's good to have that death bed exercise, But, I mean, you could also just sense what it felt like, uh, to realize how you had had had people wanting you. You know, the feeling that you had when you're friends wanted to go back on the hike of the feeling that you had when you were not acknowledged for you know how you would help with other people up. And you can also imagine what it would feel like to drive Aston and I mean, they it's probably both good feelings, but I'll bet you that Martin thing doesn't blow the other one out of water, you know, And then and
spk_1: 51:48
that's what it came down to. So when I gave him my percentages, it was 80 20
spk_0: 51:54
for the for the money,
spk_1: 51:55
1980%. I want to help people in 20%. I want the money,
spk_0: 51:59
and I don't think I also think that's obviously just artificial thing because it's not. You don't necessarily have to trade them off. No effect. I think, in general, the more you help people likely the more money you'll make
spk_1: 52:10
exactly. And that's And that's why insulting towards more than two in the hybrid. That's still like on the table for every, like that's
spk_0: 52:17
what I want. It's complicated and I'm learning. And the thing about startups is you gotta keep it simple on the more complex. And it's, you know, uh, the odds are completely against success, which is at least maybe that's my mindset, and I should banish the mindset, but that's my experience. I've been an entrepreneur for my whole adult life, basically, and there's like for every road to success, there's like calcium failure, and one of one of them, an easy one is getting too complicated. At least it's one that I have something from. And so the hybrid thing is just it's more complicated. And, uh, the the other thing I'd say is, in terms of like, you're concerned about intellectual property, you know, I've had I've gone through that myself. There's a The leading experts on startups Are is a guy named Steve Blank Stanford, and he'll say, um, people that ask him about whether you know they need an intellectual property attorney and stuff. If you're in a startup, I forget exactly how he says it. But he says, You know the best thing to do is to give your ideas to your competitors because the odds are 99% that they will fail. And so there you're more likely to send them on a I mean, the bottom line is ideas that are diamond doesn't it's about it's about the implementation, execution and drive behind it. It's about putting together you know, about you and your team and executing. And the thing is that it's iteration of the constantly evolving. The ideas don't are never static. So any idea at any point time will be is yesterday's news or immediately? Oh, yeah. So I wouldn't take a minute to worry about that and then, yeah,
spk_1: 54:23
but that was something that I did have to let go of. But that's kind of how I ended up with Chelsea because I was still on the fence about, um, I gonna go the non profit route or am I going to go for profit at the time, that was one of those woman's were dealing with a My going to have like somebody trying to take this away from me.
spk_0: 54:44
Well, the thing is, I think it's it's it's easier to set up now. Let's see. That's what mine coming is not probably there's not much harder said to my problem, and I think if I'm not mistaken, you have to set up the corporate like which can be an AL see before you do the nonprofit anyway, So it's a step towards it now. I'm not telling, you know, have to be a nonprofit. This is
spk_1: 55:06
something of a dozen conversation I've been having, regardless.
spk_0: 55:08
But do Taking the step of setting up an LLC is not going in an opposite direction, setting up in our profit. It can be just a stepping stone on the way to be in non profit or stepping down to being a larger, more profitable. Elsie is not. And like I've been doing what I'm doing. I know how you been doing it, but I think I took a pre existing I mean, my company is called United Visual Arts. It's LLC. But it was it. Previously I invented this. This? Yes,
spk_1: 55:36
I read about that. This is it.
spk_0: 55:39
That's my friend that I invented on. So the else he was kind of set up Teoh So one of the brain to work or that I might work with reentry or recovery or some kind of, uh, people that need that you know, that have hit rock bottom or that are in some kind of obvious transition. Um, and then I and we have this whole brainstorming were considering what population to serve on. It just became too complicated for me. So I decided that's not how where I was going to start. I was gonna just try toe, identify, and I ended up choosing, like you said, you chose who you are and choosing executives and entrepreneurs and creative people cause I've kind of played those roles in life. But the truth is that hasn't really worked for me in terms of marketing. So I'm still kind of open toe who I attract an effect in my walk a week, and so far it's been almost random Who comes. It's been all different kinds of people. So I'm still, uh, what I What I feel like is that I have, ah, you know, jam or, uh, valuable. Uh, diamond. You know, I have some special What's that word? Elixir having elixir that I know people that will help people
spk_1: 57:10
just a matter of convincing everybody.
spk_0: 57:11
But I don't know. Yes, it's It's I'm not sure how tow package it, uh, people come for.
spk_1: 57:18
I've been sticking with the philosophy of, you know, if you build it, they will come that I'm holding on today because the more work that I put into it and it ended in, it's a battle. It's two steps forward, five steps back, and I got all these different things I have to go in, and that process it's it's terribly trying. I've probably said that I'm giving up on what I'm doing. Thousands of
spk_0: 57:46
things, though it's you gotta be careful. You have to be mindful and aware about what you build it. Because obviously, if you're building an edifice to yourself, nobody is not gonna comics a partner, you know, if you know if your Thea thing is, of course, in the startup community, what they talk about building is the minimum viable product of project. And so it's not about so. It's all about having an eye on on on who you're serving, building something you know. It's about building a connection. The relationships. Yeah, that's
spk_1: 58:24
I mean, that's goes back to all the connections and then the connections that we have with each other. Are those relationships? Yeah, so it's it's getting that, and it's for me. It's it's coming out of myself. When I started putting everything together, I was building, but I was building this wall around myself. That's what I came to that realization.
spk_0: 58:46
It's easy, todo
spk_1: 58:47
very And then next thing after a while, you realize you're completely isolated. Now we're not even talking to anybody anymore because you're so bent on trying to bring this vision to life but not realizing that you do that, you have to collaborate. You have to connect with other people in to help do all these things. And that's company. Coming out to the event a couple of years ago, I wouldn't have came because I just I didn't feel like I would belong in a lot of space is either expressive with my history. Yeah, and that's and that's another struggle for me. It's like everything about trying to convince people to come in the woods with you. And if somebody looks in just just like research on you, you wouldn't have a problem with it. We'll do some research on me. You're gonna find out that I was in prison for a significant period of time, and it's almost that's one of those things I have to deal with on a daily basis anyway. Like I have people that I see in a professional atmosphere. I don't know that I was incarcerated.
spk_0: 59:48
Well, that's
spk_1: 59:49
what that plays a big role. It, too.
spk_0: 59:52
I mean, I and I have that concern, for example, like if I would have worked with formally, what's the PC way of saying you can't
spk_1: 59:59
formerly incarcerated individuals or people.
spk_0: 1:0:02
It's a shorter waiting to say it, you see, is two syllables. There
spk_1: 1:0:07
was, There's inmate, there's convict. There's X Connors felon all those words But they are changing the language now because the
spk_0: 1:0:18
But we do elect entrees anymore that it's formerly incarcerated individuals people. You know, when I thought about the idea first of all breaks, I'm talking to you considering how we might collaborate. And But then I do have it back my mind. Okay, If I bring formerly incarcerated individuals onto my property and they know where it iss, you know, I was having a fantasy. Do I like to put a cover? I don't know where it is, but, you know, I feel like, uh, you know, I mean, I've personally been, uh I grew up much Philadelphia. I've lived in very, very tough neighborhoods. I've been there any kind of thing. I've been assaulted, I've been mugged, I've been burglarized. I've been you know, everything has happened to me. And I know there's good and everybody and there is good in every population. And there's also crazy shit that happens from individuals in this
spk_1: 1:1:19
world that I wouldn't want across either.
spk_0: 1:1:21
Yeah, and so you know, that's a concern. And it's a concern. You know, this is one of the, like, just a chance subject like this is why I didn't I decided I'm not going to start with youth because there's all these issues with youth bringing youth into the woods. Correct. And it just requires, like, all bigger infrastructure. And so, you know, if we were to, you know, so I would be so, so a couple things. One is You know, the model that I'm working with now, for example, would be trying to get well what? Like what? What I The fee for my weakens more are is already too low for me. Teoh even break break even. So, like I keep trying to figure out what package can I put together for a higher feet? That would be sustainable and that I could even get a salary or something from you know, and I haven't figured that out. I'm working on that. But then if we were if I were to work with following frustrated individuals who probably cant could afford lesser couldn't afford anything, then you know, then it needs to be. Then I'm thinking. It probably needs to have a non profit component where there's funding, where there's an interested institutional partner that either is required to do it by the state or see some better public benefit from doing it. And then, you know, then I then I have the issue of water. What additional? Um, well, how the program has to be adjusted. So, you know. So the fact that there is an ordeal, the fact from in my case there's an art design ordeal. It involves being alone in the woods, you know, and other people are alone. I mean, I have my progress up to now have all been co educational. Um, they don't have to be your own men, basically, you know, there's a state. Everyone's concerned about safety, you know? And so those were you know, as we pursue these this conversation, we would need to talk about a possible and their simple like if if you had access to 65 acres of woods, what would you dio? What would you want?
spk_1: 1:3:44
Todo So I would. That's actually been some. I was thinking about two because even when we had the first initial conversation, you were telling me like that work that I'm doing in the population I'm working with It's like that. It's a complicated part. You mentioned already doing the complicated part, and then you have to land. And I'm thinking and that's my The lack of resource is with that. So that's why I go, um, majority the heights that we go on now there in New Jersey somewhere, usually up here in like the Northern part, because more of the mountains and trails are, um, but I'll find him anywhere in this area, and then we'll just go. You just have that experience. Um, so for me, it's just like it. It would be having a space that I would be free to, you know, hold these hiking sessions without any other distractions. And that's this unlimited possibilities to me about where it could go on what it could dio. But as you mentioned, there's going to be a ton of unintended consequences that potentially would come from it. Well, I'm sitting there dealing with even thinking about the beginning, like, um, I just doing for formerly incarcerated people. All right, great. But then how am I going to keep these people were formally incarcerated, just didn't wanted to invest in themselves with this. So I said, if you think about it from a for profit aspect,
spk_0: 1:5:10
me like,
spk_1: 1:5:12
it's gonna come back when you pay all this money. But if you're formally car, so you're already struggling. I know you are, um, so you're not gonna want toe dumped it out, But then there's always discretionary income, and that was the argument that I would use because when we had the class, we had to do a pitch presentation at the end. When they questioned me on that and I said, There's amounts of discretionary income The majority of people do have, even if they're formally incarcerated and what you're spending that money on, are using it to in a damaging way towards yourself. Or would you prefer to use that for something that can actually uplift you and benefit you and provide a pathway to internal healing instead of the bottles of alcohol that you're buying to numb the pain and then toe wake up feeling like trash the next day? Or, you know, whatever, whatever you're using to cope because you're wasting a lot more money on that than it would cost you to do this. And that was my arguments. Um, but then you're is doing still think about that thinking about it, Um, other people formerly incarcerated people or anybody who's dealing with some type of trauma, you know, into that space, opening them up to that. And then all right, now you go
spk_0: 1:6:20
home. We'll also thinks all kinds of unexpected things happen when you and it's happened with me, with people who who haven't who, as far as I know, haven't had trouble with the law or anything, but have had trauma. I don't You know, they don't They don't they don't say I'm someone that's been trumped, but in in the kind of work that I do, you know, when you're sharing and you start getting into why you're there and stuff. Also, it becomes evident. And I mean, I'm not a trained psychologist draining, but that becomes very tricky. And you have to be, you know, your group people. You know, just what you said about yoga in prison. I mean yoga. A lot of the opposes. They're designed to open you, and it's vulnerable. And there's a feminine aspect and like not something men usually do in front of each other or from anybody. And but that's that's part of what has. It's part of the ordeal.
spk_1: 1:7:24
But what you just said there. That's what I feel like when you talked about like what you have to lend and you have this. Probably what would I do with that? Provides for me looking at it from time to time of service. I'm trying right now. This is a space where it's not a regular hike or a regular trail, or all these other people potentially to come across your walk past
spk_0: 1:7:44
you like completely, uh, when? Five.
spk_1: 1:7:47
And that's the beauty of it. Because when I go and do now on take on ice, you know we're doing yoga before when we arrived and get settled and it will do yoga. But then there's other people showing up in the in that space, right? It's not like we're gonna be carrying like the mat, sleek or deep into the hype will just do it in that space, and it could be a little uncomfortable for people to do that as people are just walking by or doing other stuff
spk_0: 1:8:12
right and
spk_1: 1:8:12
then think about the meditation aspect, The last what we did. One of the women that was with this uses like I was really go. She was like, But then people were walking past me or I you know, I didn't. I wasn't comfortable enough to stay there, so she wasn't fully immersed into it is distracted. And then an uncomfortable because not sore, what they're looking at saying or thinking as they're passing by and for me, Like I could sit, I don't. I'm here whatever, like you're gonna do something there. Something happens, and so be it. But I'm just sitting there. So it's different from me and in terms of like, you know, a woman who might not feel as comfortable or a safe right if she's left to her own devices out, especially on the woods like that, Right toward your close your eyes just sit there and let everything move around you and could be very be very frightening, especially for anybody who, especially, who hasn't even they're not used to going on hikes or being in that space. So those are all different areas that have to tackle. But having
spk_0: 1:9:15
with went out the sand so I just give you a sense when I do it. I usually do on Fridays through Sundays, you know, three day weekend people shop 989 AM or, you know there's like breakfast. There's meals on the first day, breakfast, lunch and dinner. And, um, you know, we start around 10 and it's an intensive day of of training with a lot of kind of group work, but you're basically sitting in a circle on. Then I do do my own version of your yoga, and that's one component of it cause I teach. The first day is about orientation, and everything is kind of set up is a four directional orientation. And so I do what I kind of call four directional yoga. Yoga, which is different, like involves things like laughing and and partner work. So it's not your typical yoga that you go in the city and do what was going on it. And then it ends with I have a big bonfire night and then people go and I mean, there's a in the afternoon. There was a period where people go set up their tent and everything is very. It's very clear where everybody is. So I know where everybody is. They don't know where each other is, but they have several football fields of force, and it's and there's not. It's not like hike. There's not a lot of hiking, not a lot of it's very physical, but it's not like exercise physical. So you go to your location set up here your camp, and then you come back. And then when we But when the bonfires over way have a kind of ritual where we send people at night in pitch black to to their campsite and then they they are alone for the next 36 hours with no food, no contact and no shelter, a tent you know they want. And you know the point is not toe wander because then you might run into somebody else. It's the state kind of a new general area, and, um, and then people and that, you know, everybody is full of fears before they do that they're afraid of now. They're afraid of the woods. They're afraid of wild animals. They're afraid of trees, falling airfield, lightning. They're afraid of bugs they're afraid of. They'll be uncomfortable sleeping there, just like a 1,000,000 fears. And you know what? Of course, ends up being the hardest thing for everybody so far is being along with nothing to do, nothing to do. Uh, not even meals, which you know, something we spent a lot of time thinking about doing. And then people come back on the Sunday morning, we break the fast. There's another ritual to come back into the kind of sacred container. And then a lot of what I'm teaching is how to listen, how to listen to yourself, to nature and to each other. So the very structured listening and sharing that happens that last day it's It's pretty profound. Yeah, I'd be excited to have you try it, and I
spk_1: 1:12:27
definitely I would. I'm definitely interested to Absolutely. I was saying for me and then just looking at it. Like so for example, what you mentioned before, where people are looking for something worse were, like you said with forest bathing words like that light version, right? That's Taylor, too. You know, today's society so that it fits
spk_0: 1:12:48
Yeah,
spk_1: 1:12:49
still managing. And even when I read the book like you know, Dr Lisa, and have that the optimal time would be like two hours, right? Yeah, and that's that's what you need. And that's the amount of time. And that's I have no doubt like that amount of time I was beneficial. As you know, advertisers. We Yeah, but for me, it's like, you know, every time I've gone on a high click for personal recently, it's gonna be a much longer immersive like like, intrinsic type of like seclusion where I'm really in the woods like and I'm just fully connected and fully like, plugged in to nature for much more extended period of time.
spk_0: 1:13:32
Well, with people who aren't used to it, I mean things like with my place where the panel, where they're coming from it could be like two hours in the city, so it could be a day program, people. It can't be done on day trip. It's four hours of getting and getting back, probably. And then I mean you could Then you could do a day program where you have probably a little discussion, but everything would be in nature and and then some kind of activities. And you know what? You could do two hours or 55 hours like that you know, be a full debt day. You know, that's obviously complexity of like the way I do it is people spend the night correct, you know, So part of it is you have to be trained what to do. Bodily function. How do how do you leave no trace and that part. So all that stuff that people to Oh, I know One other thing I wanted to make sure I said, is it's relates to something you said earlier. You asked like, How do I get that feeling again? Yes. And
spk_1: 1:14:38
again, it's getting to experience that over again or having that be there.
spk_0: 1:14:42
You know one thing I think that's that. One of the reasons I think in the tradition is that it is an ordeal, and it is not just the light thing is because it becomes a touchdown, you know, I mean, it becomes like a scar, become seared into you so that you remember. You know, if it's so light that it's it's just like here and go on, you have to keep going back and back and back abound, and people who do what I'm talking about doing they do go back and do it over and over again. But there's an aspect of the ordeal that makes it that gives it a lasting power. So that you, when you are, let's say, a moment of crisis or something you can you can read, You can recall, you know, you can you can, you know, saying it left. It leads that point for me, the point of, ah, really powerful experiences that it leaves a sufficient impression that it that that it, it it eyes available,
spk_1: 1:15:47
lives with little inside you. You can access that.
spk_0: 1:15:50
Yeah,
spk_1: 1:15:50
absolutely. And that's it. It's over the way. I'm have everything set up right now from my you know, my trips of their day trips. It's head out in the morning, um, and usually back by afternoon, majority of the time what we're going. But
spk_0: 1:16:08
you traveled more than our
spk_1: 1:16:10
use. I mean, as of late, it's just been I mean, it might be an hour at most, and I'm really going to hour and 1/2. I think the further said I've gone with people on a regular basis or any sense of regularity is like the Delaware Water gap area.
spk_0: 1:16:25
Yeah, and I'm only 20 minutes, about 20 minutes walk from
spk_1: 1:16:31
there, and we've been up to Bosco Falls. Teoh have been out there and other trails in that area, he said. Like I used to go camping as a kid. So I was like, That's always been a place where I've always felt at home. Um, but then he was justly, What I was trying to do was trying to find it. Taylor to be able to fit with people's lives Yeah, um, it is difficult is difficult to get people to do, want to come out and there's other people. They're like, Oh, you know what we need to do another hiker come out on this high, but it's trying toe get line up with everybody. Schedules to its people have so much going on today, and it's like it's gonna be OK. You could take time out and do this on, but when they dio, I mean it's great in the involvement, but then it's like, you know, trying to sustain that and just be enough to do it all the time. That's more of the is. It's right now. My biggest struggle with the is finding the time to dedicate towards that because when the day job right, that's money to Friday draining most of the day
spk_0: 1:17:35
where I'm
spk_1: 1:17:36
stuck in an office and I'm just like, I can't wait to get out of there so I can actually work on everything and do all the other background work that I need to do. But then Norm drained,
spk_0: 1:17:53
you know, the only wayto to Well, I don't know about the only way I suspect that that a but how to make a transition where you can devote yourself full time of this thing is you're gonna need to find an institutional support now. Do you know people in that community like, you know, I know Jim McGreevey is like a big reentry guy. I don't know if that I don't know if he's completely purse on my bra. You know, nobody touches him now, but
spk_1: 1:18:23
there's people what's in the community.
spk_0: 1:18:25
There's that new New Jersey Reentry Corp Does that still exist? I mean,
spk_1: 1:18:28
I believe so last in the last century. But either way, like there's, there's other organizations, and there's other groups, people that worked yourself that I'm I am
spk_0: 1:18:38
aware of, because I mean, that's the thing to do is to go to them. And they're mostly non profit organizations, right? Or they? Yes, yes. So to go to them and say you've got a particular for forest bait in nature based program and to see if they would fund it or if they so, you know, I would be delighted to work with you on that First of all, like just to pitch myself a little like I've read every millions of dollars. I'm really good. It
spk_1: 1:19:07
I told you a demo work.
spk_0: 1:19:09
So I want to know about about how toe package programming like that raise money. I haven't focused on that because I've been I've been focusing on that. I've been focusing more on the opposite on the on the the, you know, kind of more commercial marketing and like learning how toe do the podcasting and the social media and all that stuff. And, you know, last few years I've been investing a lot of my time and learning market. It's important. I mean, that's what I found with these frames. Is that that I I mean, I made a beautiful I think it's a beauty. I mean, the museum or art sold, it's I know it's a gorgeous thing, but to you know where that field was, it's all about getting the distribution and getting it out. So that wasn't my forte. Tryingto, it's still not my forte, but I'm tryingto that's what I've been focused on in terms of this kind of thing. That is my forte. If, uh, you know, if there if we could get interested in this, um, usually there has to be some form the state mandate or something, but there there might be
spk_1: 1:20:20
there. There's there's so much I'm still learning along this process because again, I'm they. And just this just looking at my life personally leg and growing up in how things that happened over the course of my life, things that different life experiences, that I had really left me in a weird place so that no, when I came home from president and it was just like I will I know what I've been working on. I've been doing stuff in a and almost passive way, where I'm doing stuff like I went to college classes so that I could have more time. Austin's here doing something else, keeping busy, not so much I actually had a plan for what I was going to do. Nobody in my family I knew at that time went to college. It was a high school. You get a job and work hard, take care of family, and that's it. But even growing up like that's not the type of life that I want. Like, that's not going to bring me any real peace or anything. And so I started chasing all the other substances, Kid, I am understanding what what I really wanted. The upbringing that I had didn't provide me with that that space, like Okay, where you have the freedom to create really what you want. It was no. You go to school, excite and just get a job. Not really saying, like you pick a trade like Hello, what makes me happier? What am I passing it about? That going a different question to provoke different thought. So now the fact that this all came later in life and then after article bone from prison, it's almost like starting fresh again. So I'm still learning so much on the process and even learning the politics and had a little wind, different circles and all that, Um, that's entertaining in itself. Um, but it That's what I've been trying to do with this over the past two years. Now, it's been two years since I've conceptualized this idea and wanting to do this, and it's It's almost like like a crackpot where it's super slow cooked time. And but on my right to my vision is that it's going to come together eventually, so I just can't give up on it. Um, but they said like a lot of things we talked about having a nonprofit that's been until I have notes on that. And just trying to figure out my issue was like my issues more trying to find people to work with who are interested in working on the same thing. Exact. And so that's why I've been trying to step out of my comfort zone and go out to events and talk to people in really network. Just try to be around in that fasten, and it's like I feel like we are on the same page with differently.
spk_0: 1:22:54
I would think so.
spk_1: 1:22:55
Half that we're trying to dio on your as like your areas of expertise. Far surpassed mind in those areas, so that would only make sense to me like so if we couldn't figure something out, I'm being great. But it's the same time. It's like it's just the figure out how that all works together. I mean, that's conversation. I'm more than open to like I might Thing is like, This is what I want to do with my life. You know? I wonder if they're still training. I'm going to say that I was for North class. I went to. I did get a small grant at the end of it because they had on, sadly, that pitch competition at the end. And then they had seed funding available to certain people.
spk_0: 1:23:38
What's the name of the program?
spk_1: 1:23:39
There's call. Are you flourishing on DSO? It's part of Rutgers. Okay. Part of the Rutgers business School. Um,
spk_0: 1:23:47
at that. Are you
spk_1: 1:23:49
but Thea and it's through the business school in Newark.
spk_0: 1:23:52
Did you get a business degree?
spk_1: 1:23:54
No. So I completed the program. There was no certificate. There's no degree or anything to go with that, but, you know,
spk_0: 1:24:01
But you got your undergraduate degree or
spk_1: 1:24:03
yes, I have a master's in communication. Okay. Correct. But then took that program. And so I did receive some of the seed funding from that. It's just figured out how I was using it, what I was doing. But I'm trying to trying to put it towards trainings. So I went to a breath. Where workshop in Maryland. There's a forest meeting and a meeting with broke learning about that do plan. Intend to become most yogurts instructor? Because that that's going to be vitally important. My like I have on and off about roughly 15 years of experience with yoga and meditation and breast work since I first was introduced. What,
spk_0: 1:24:42
what kind of breath work?
spk_1: 1:24:44
So there's traffic years old. I mean, there's play different kinds, and I havent branched out into all of them. But the in when I went to Maryland, Uh, I'm not sure if you heard of an open, isn't it? Was Max strong and yes, you ever wear. So he does inter access yoga, and he also does the breath work along with that, which is a huge part of what he does. So it's more likely he would tell everything was like, This is a yoga studio here, and yes, we're doing some yoga, but this is a breath work work. So we're here to work on our breath and and he would he like, I watched his Ted talk video, and that's how I got introduced that way. Um, and, you know, I looked him up, started reading his books, found out he was going to be relatively close, signed up already have the grant funding for that. So I was able to, uh, um, make it Teoh, go see him and had a phenomenal weekend there. I was a three day weekend. We went down there and just went to all that and that, Really there was on the intense day. I had a very powerful experience. And so it's just it's using the ocean breathing things got J. Okay. And some of its like, restricted breathing, all of us. It's so like when you go to lake, clean your glasses and fog them up. That's the time when you exhale, do up and are you gonna do a bolt awaits me in hell that we're gonna excel that way, and there's he has different methods to do. Um, but that's where I started doing. That's what I'm trying to pick all these pieces now. So now I'm trying. I do have experience in these areas, but now I need that sort of case, and I need the the accolades to go along with it to say this is all right. I can, uh, in a for profit model. I'm validating why I'm charging for this Because I did all the work to get to this point to provide this service. We're not. So I'm trying to invest in myself that way and learn all about it. Like I said, I start to do yoga teacher training so I could get certified yoga instructor The breast work, have the experience with him. And still, I still connected with him. So, hoping to win couple to Misamore on that in the meditation itself as well. All things I'm still learning. As I'm going along with this hiking wilderness therapy forest. They're all these different areas that I going to need it, some pointed, be certified in. This is a matter of finding it
spk_0: 1:27:13
depends on what role you want to play. So, for example, I have No, I have a lot of certifications, but nothing specific to this in particular what we're talking about, and I am thinking I'm going to do another. I'm actually signed up for a month long training in the kind of vision found stuff, but I still I probably you know, I did an interview podcast a few days ago and with an artist who said, Nobody cares he Well, he said he how he doesn't care what your certification as he gears what the results are, you know, from working with you. And, um, you know, I feel like I don't need I don't know that I need to learn more because I already run about 1/2 dozen of these countries. But I could hear people who don't know me. They're like, Well, what's your training? And so I might do it. Just Teoh for two reasons. Want us to check the box. But the other is also just to be with other people who are committed to what I'm doing because it's isolating doing this tryingto convince people to come and do this. It would be nice to just be with people that are already committed to doing it and expanding that network. Um, and I have spent I've done what you're talking about the last 10 years or so. I've spent doing tons of these kinds of training's Let's say, although, like I said, I haven't done them with the intensive of getting certified or anything and partly because, you know my role often has been Azzan executive. And so it's more a matter of being able t know who's got talent and bringing getting them involved
spk_1: 1:29:12
that that was going to the other side. So even with the nonprofit, or even if you do a for profit model with regardless if going to be the entrepreneur in the for the business, then I mean, do you first, you need to be certified what
spk_0: 1:29:28
you have to know. Enough curry able to know what people need to do, absolutely, to perform those roles. And, you know, when I first started the walk a weekend, it never occurred to me that I would be the person doing the teaching. Um, I assumed always that I was going to just bring in a creature of the people, and but everyone wants to do they want. They want to associate the face with, you know they want so doing it myself. Just but again it's part of the start up to. That's why a lot of these things end up being like training programs that offer certification. You know that that tends to be a blue prism model, uh, one of things that
spk_1: 1:30:16
different with the farce of therapy or wilderness therapy. It seems to get very convoluted at times with the initial idea was, I'm just bringing this group of formerly incarcerated people out on a hike tohave deep opening profile. That was just the basis and the foundation of what it was gonna be. But not realizing. My whole point was to do it outside our nature, going to and looking at that. But my my stance on it all was not a certification. Training with all that is to check the box for me, as far as I'm concerned, granted having greater knowledge of it and how it all works, that's highly important. And I would want that for myself so that I can speak with you from a place of authority. But I've already been looking at it with my stances from lift experience. This is me going suffering, trauma being in prison, more trauma, coming home, trying to adjust to being nearly 30 year old dope after coming home in late deaths. More traumatic experience. But all throughout that you know, while I was in prison, I was introduced to those wellness practices for Inter next worries and diving inside yourself, finding out who you really are and learning that through meditation, through yoga, any breath work I was trying to do. And again, a lot of that was passive, and I mentioned not much privacy, so I'm not doing it. That most well is locked up. But then, when I got reintroduced to it out here started to play around with in the experiment, I realized it had a positive influence in my life. And when I combine it with being out in
spk_0: 1:32:00
nature, well,
spk_1: 1:32:02
that's where it all came together. And that's where I was able to do that with other people and they were benefiting from it. And that's where the core value in it late that I was still able to bring. In essence.
spk_0: 1:32:14
I mean, I think you're gonna love you gotta come in my walk all weekend because it's exactly what you're talking about. It's a deep dive, and, um, I think you and I, I think we're in a niche that is for me. It's super exciting because there's a lot of people doing mindfulness. A lot of people doing yoga, you know, it's everywhere. There's a lot of people. There's not as many people doing nature stuff, and there's almost nobody do it. Combining the nature with the other things, you know, I mean I mean, you could, you could find some nature programming at like retreat centers is love. Um, I don't know. I just think what my where I studied the stuff was a place called The School of Lost Borders and I just feel like for me, it's the perfect combination. But it's intense, you know, involves fasting. Have your experience experimented with that stuff at all
spk_1: 1:33:16
very lightly. Yeah, I haven't done like so I started to get into intermittent fasting and trying to play around with that lightly. So far, I'm having doping. Do you? A friend of mine does. He does all the time. He does dry fast and everything. I haven't gotten any that, but that's
spk_0: 1:33:34
why you can see I'm not something I like to eat. And I don't like Teoh fast, but I, but it's It's a powerful medicine. Yes, just like certain forms of breath work really powerful. If you haven't tried the whole tropic, it's very different from
spk_1: 1:33:54
you.
spk_0: 1:33:54
And yeah, it's a, uh you know, for a lot of these traditions, people use all kinds of and theologians, you know, like how hallucinogens and stuff like I Alaska and things like that when people talk about nature, you know, when you go into a deep dive stuff. So I you know, I have experimented with that stuff to see what it was about, but I don't That's not what I'm offering, because I just I think we're so detached from nature that when you bring in those kind of powerful botanicals, uh, way don't even know what to do. Well, I'm not saying this one answer for everybody, but but my my answer is there's enough of that medicine from just being in nature. And if I were to take it like a next step, it would involve breath work, which is just the, um the effect of oxygen and breathing. That can be I mean, in my experience is wild. And, uh, what sort of, uh, mind altering as any Anthea. General River oldest so well, I think we've certainly
spk_1: 1:35:15
throughout the ground
spk_0: 1:35:16
covered a lot of ground. Thank you so much. Thank you. Pleasure should do this again. Thanks for listening to the Nature Breakthroughs Podcast with Dr Wild Ben Goldman. To discover what you need for personal, organizational and societal change, get your free download of three ancient rituals. Smart entrepreneurs used to bounce back from shifts in the thanks for listening to the nature Breakthroughs Podcast with Dr Wild Ben Goldman. To discover what you need for personal, organizational and societal change, get your free download of three ancient rituals. Smart entrepreneurs used to bounce back from shifts in the market and inside themselves. Goto w w w dot nature breakthroughs dot com