This Internet's free . I'm not paying for this at all . Nothing's free . Okay , nothing's free . You're paying for it somewhere , but yeah , okay , bye Scott , we gotta go . We gotta get some more important stuff .
Speaker 2Alright , what's going on in the chat ?
Speaker 1Okay , I just got one about Scott .
Speaker 2Everybody's wondering about Scott .
Speaker 1How do ?
Speaker 2you feel about the class Charlie over this class Bravo in the clearance conversation . You can't help on that ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I didn't know that I've never flown into a class Bravo , so that was news to me . I had no idea , but you have flown into a class Charlie or flown out of .
Speaker 2So we're more about the out of which is where everybody is so in tune from their instructor with coming into a class Bravo , coming into a class Charlie , what do you need to hear ? What are the requirements ? You know two way radio and how does that go , and all that stuff . So if you think of the parallels for that on the ground , you need to hear cleared in the class Bravo , in a class Bravo . So you need to contact clearance to get out of a class Bravo . You basically need to hear all the same stuff in reverse right . And then in the class Charlie , we don't need to hear cleared into the class Charlie , you need to hear your call sign , even if they say stand by , it's like an express , like understanding that you can still proceed into the class Charlie Right . So now the parallels to that on the ground is that you don't need to contact clearance , you don't need to get clearance into the Charlie to take off from a class Charlie . That is the way I have always whatever conveyed that concept .
Speaker 1Ian said the entry requirements are still the same .
Speaker 2What's that ?
Speaker 1Ian just said , the entry requirements are still the same .
Speaker 2Meaning the MoZi and the two way radio communication .
Speaker 1I don't know . I just read you the entire thing .
Speaker 2Okay . Do you need to hear cleared in the class , charlie ? I'm pretty sure you don't .
Speaker 1I think it's only for class Bravo .
Speaker 2I'm pretty sure you don't , only for the class Bravo , so I assume that's not what he's talking about . Okay , so let's see . I think he means the two way radio and the MoZi is my thinking . That's what I would assume , And I agree with him . So in the class Delta the only thing you need is the two way radio communication or to enter . what you need to hear is just your call sign again .
Speaker 2Just like the class . Charlie So Bravo is the only is like the outlier . So that is where the most stringent and strict requirements are .
Speaker 1He says meaning I agree with Lee . So it's just a mute point .
Speaker 2Oh , okay , yeah , okay , good .
Speaker 1What else .
Speaker 2What else can we talk about ? What else did we screw up during the actual lesson ?
Speaker 1It's kind of cooling down . We only got like 20 watching right now , which is still amazing . Yeah , it is .
Speaker 2I think I saw like 44 or 47 or something .
Speaker 1It's just down a little bit from the peak .
Speaker 2What I mean ? does anybody want to talk about anything else ? Anything else .
Speaker 1Yeah , that was all of my effort . I can't think of anything other than I was hoping the chat I was talking about . Yeah , i'm watching , i'm keeping an eye on it . Kind of just blabbing to fill time as I look at the chat . I was just have you ever flipped tail numbers and stuff ? What do you mean ?
Speaker 2No , I haven't done anything . I don't know anything about what you're talking about . Okay , yeah it just makes sense , though , because we deal when we buy new airplanes and things like that . I mean it can sometimes be . It's an interesting process .
Speaker 1You have .
Speaker 2N numbers on an airplane that you bought . But they want the N number back And it's just a thing . They want their N number . That's on the airplane , so they go buy you a N number to put on it after you buy it . It's just crazy .
Speaker 1They want to sell the plane , but they want to keep the tail number .
Speaker 2Yes , very common .
Speaker 1I've been learning about this this week . I never gave much thought to it Until . I was just like you know what , I should look into this so we have something to do on the episode .
Speaker 2Yeah , you did .
Speaker 1I went down this rabbit hole of aftermarket tail numbers , markets and stuff .
Speaker 2You just need to come up with some valuable ones that somebody wants to buy from you one day .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , I've seen the websites where people sell them . It seems like a lot of people bought all the ones that are worth wanting .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And they probably charge more for it .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 1I don't know . I said I'm at a price on that three digit number that I'd like to have , just out of curiosity See what they come back with . Putting some feelers out , some emails . Maybe get one of these guys on the show .
Speaker 2Yeah , give us the scoop . Yeah .
Speaker 1Because they had some single digit number with two letters Tail number is on there . All the billionaires put on their helicopters And I'm just curious what those go for .
Speaker 2What I think is interesting is I believe Harrison Ford's DeHavilland Beaver is November 2 , 8 Sierra And our Saratoga is 4 , 2 , 8 Sierra .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , that's kind of cool .
Speaker 2Yeah , i mean it is cool . I mean it's super cool . It's DeHavilland Beaver and basically has a call sign . That I've been saying for or had been saying for years Yeah , interesting , yeah . Yeah , i mean there's so much like crazy like micro things about call signs and radio etiquette , but it's like The the main . The reason you're making a radio call is to let other people know what you're doing . So if you want to omit left downwind Even though it should be or could be assumed , it's just . Why not just ?
Speaker 2say left downwind in my and I know that you're on the other side of that , so I'm not saying like you're doing it wrong , but it's like that's my perspective on it . You know , it's nothing more for me to just say left downwind or left base , that's just my thing .
Speaker 1I feel like , though , if you're , if you're flying Stuff like Scott flies , you do sound more love a dweeb saying that . Then if you're flying something like a leer or something more serious , you know what I mean .
Speaker 2But that's just . Yeah , that's all in your head , though You can also sound like the most professional 150 pilot there is if you do all the other stuff .
Speaker 1Yeah you the part if you don't make a radio call you're flying a 150 at your own grass strip in a field You fit the part 172 , or even like a super cub or something I'd be like That's a lot .
Speaker 2Was it gonna go over the top ? this guy ever Supercut over the day job and he's flying aside here .
Speaker 1What's going on ?
Speaker 2I'm gonna be the full call sign , full aircraft type every time when I have a super cub . I say super cub every time , every time sick .
Speaker 1Well , yeah , just to say super cub over the radio make everybody jealous . I looked up one eight Papa Alpha November . One eight Papa Alpha .
Speaker 2Okay , not available .
Speaker 1I imagine that that'd be cool . Yeah , super cub though .
Speaker 2Yeah , why not ? why not eight one Alpha Papa ? They just that'd be transposed completely .
Speaker 1Yeah , i don't think a lot of people get it , though .
Speaker 2That's a reach I know I almost couldn't even say it to reach , yeah , those things , although , like I get it , that's not what I want . Like I want meaningful things to me . Like you know , i would do stuff like with my kids names and stuff like that , you know , yeah .
Speaker 1Okay , you pull rumble chat up on your computer .
Speaker 2Lay , i don't think we sounds like a lot of work Okay pull another tab up .
Speaker 1You got 13 inches of real estate on there , don't you ?
Speaker 2Mmm , I think I have to 11 dude .
Speaker 1Oh , I'm not sure .
Speaker 2Yeah , i Can't look at my password , because What could it be ? So we got end of the registration code shown on your device .
Speaker 1Ydge words , one we can talk about how to flare properly . Okay and Ian says when the runway begins to expand rapidly , it isn't bad advice , but as he states in the next thing , which really means nothing , Like once . Once you have enough landings on your belt to know What that saying means , you're beyond , probably needing that saying and that's all .
Speaker 2That's also true . Yeah , the various student observation when I was deep , rob , that's deep , let's all write that down like I see it and I understand what he's saying , but if you're trying to explain to somebody learning how to land , it'd be worthless . So he how to flare land properly or flare properly .
Speaker 1What do you say Then ?
Speaker 2you follow your when do you pull power ?
Speaker 1Okay , on the plane . Okay go on . Probably different than a skyhawk .
Speaker 2That is true , but go on , and maybe not by much , but go on , okay . Well , i wish Jeff Danovich were here to have this conversation . See to he . I know he would instantly bring up . Well , the only time you do , 180 power-offs well . This is what he would say amon's in the chat .
Speaker 1Still you , you talk . Well , that's true . I haven't seen him in a little bit entry level though .
Speaker 2I mean so he . But Yeah , it would be interesting .
Speaker 1Amen , if you're still in the chat , chime in if you remember Lee talking about that .
Speaker 2But so what is your perspective on that , though , rob ?
Speaker 1um , pull power And it depends on what I'm flying . When I was doing the arrow in my commercial .
Speaker 2Okay .
Speaker 1Like I'd leave a little power in until the wheels were on the ground .
Speaker 2Like so I would say a hundred percent , do not ever do that now . Absolutely not , because in the rest of your flying career you will bus check rides and You will not pass upgrade training . If you're at an airline all kinds of stuff you absolutely never , ever , ever Land with the engine producing more than idle power .
Speaker 1Okay well maybe that was just that wasn't only example , i thought because of the handful and that's fine .
Speaker 2I'm not saying you're wrong .
Speaker 1Oh , that was the only one that is no judgment on you at all .
Speaker 2The only , only only time you would ever do , it is if you're doing a glassy water landing .
Speaker 1Okay , yeah , that's a seaplane .
Speaker 2That is the only time and that is obvious because that is part of the . That is As far as I know . I don't have that much seaplane time . You and I probably have similar amounts of seaplane time . Yeah um , so I Mean there may be an airplane where you do something different , but glassy watering . The technique is pretty , i would imagine , pretty universal . Yeah , you set up an ultra-high , stabilized approach at a low descent rate with a lot of power , and when you touch The water then you bring power idle .
Speaker 2Yeah there may be something different somewhere , i don't know . Don't judge me if there is , but that is kind of the technique That is the only time that I know of . And maybe in rotorcraft , obviously you got power and all kinds of stuff . But in an airplane I don't know of anything . That is terrible technique unless there is something specific . But I will tell you for a fact in a 172 , in a Cherokee , do not land any type of Cherokee , do not land with power on at all .
Speaker 2Idle power , idle thrust only . The reason for that is , if you start that technique , then Primacy , the law of primacy . You tend to always retain those things longer and they're harder to beat out of you If you have them , if you're adopting them early on in your career , early on in your learning . The weight on wheels logic in a lot of aircraft .
Speaker 2Well , in aircraft with weight on wheels logic , where there's sensors , there's wheel speed transducers that sense wheel speed on all the different wheels and then spoilers pop and thrusters can arm and all these things happen . Those all depend on the thrust lever being at idle . That is the first thing that you need to do to satisfy , other than letting the airplane hit the ground with the wheels . That should happen on every landing anyways , but other than that , you need to have the thrusters at idle when those wheels , or none of those other things , while any skid braking spoilers , thruster versus all of those things won't work unless you have those thrusters at idle . And I know during upgrade at the airline that I was one of the airlines I was at when I upgraded to captain that was one of the things they were specifically looking for is people landing with power above idle .
Speaker 1Yeah , that point the instructor told me that just because it was a T tail and I guess it was kept some air over the rudder for stuff is why they said that . But every other airplane had flown . Yeah , not landing . Keep more air speed .
Speaker 2That means you're coming in too slow . I mean . I've never flown a T tail arrow okay , but most of the things I've flown at this point are all T tail like I get it Most of the planes .
Speaker 1yeah , I'm chopping the power early on , final to nothing .
Speaker 2I think that's a bad excuse if it's loaded within CG and you're flying the correct approach air speed . I can't imagine that was in the manual . To land with power on , i guess , is where I would go to .
Speaker 1Never looked at the manual .
Speaker 2Well , yeah , there you have it I don't believe I ever flow that solo . I mean , if it was in the manual , then do that , but if I doubt it was , Yeah , most airplanes .
Speaker 1I'm just to get back to the question I'm getting on final and as soon as , if it's in an airplane I'm familiar with , as soon as I know I have the runway made , i chop the power .
Speaker 2So like , let's say , and we kind of go around and around about this , but like , let's say , you're on final , based the final in that kind of area , right , and we can come up with some attitudes if we need to fine tune the scenario . But are you gonna be fully configured before you decide the chop to power ? or how do you balance out that drag and thrust profile when you're coming in to land ? Is there a way you could maybe say something ? or if you were in the role of an instructor , how would you be teaching , coaching somebody to kind of get their mind right about it ?
The 150 , and I do this with 172s , 10 degrees on downwind . It's kind of a default because you should be slow enough to start adding flap in on your downwind anyway . I typically put the next notch in on base and then when I'm making that turn to final , I'm just playing it by sight picture of what I'm gonna do If anything on final . you see , if there's wind , weird winds and stuff sometimes I'll just keep it at 20 .
Speaker 2And land at 20? .
Speaker 1Yeah , if I'm trying to think of putting me on the spot here .
Speaker 2If That's all you guys do to me , so enjoy it .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm trying to think of it as a crosswinds Like . if there was like a bunch of crosswinds , it was gusty and stuff .
Speaker 2Yeah , wind and gusty , yeah , I would just come in with a extra speed .
Speaker 1I wouldn't put in as much flap . I don't want that controllability . I don't want the airplane to be not as much flap in it .
Speaker 2Okay , yeah , i mean that would be all the guidance that I've ever known , land with minimal flap , setting obviously up to a point . But yeah , typically what you tend to do with flaps is obviously it lowers your stall speed and most manufacturers give you a graph as to like how that stall speed is affected with flap changes . But one thing a lot of people don't really realize is with an aircraft that's What do I want to say , i guess like pretty neutral , balanced . You know , your center of gravity is pretty balanced . You're in the middle of the , of the what do I want to say ? Middle of the center of gravity envelope , the weight and balance envelope , right , so forward to aft . When you put those flaps down , what you end up doing is you end up moving . Well , i believe I'm sure Stuart Butz or somebody's going to correct me on this , but or Tyler Jared , probably anybody can correct me on this but I'm pretty sure you're moving the center of gravity or the center of lift , center of pressure , aft . So you have the center of gravity and the center of lift always kind of opposing each other , and what that ends up happening is you end up basically balancing the airplane better with those flaps and it's a stabilizing force So it does make the airplane craft more stable having flaps down . So that is a benefit as well as reducing the stall speed .
Speaker 2So you have two things kind of going in your quarter . If you're always like flying , like so low , and it mild weights , a mild density altitude , you're not going to notice the difference ever . But if you're like worst case scenario , you're slow , you're heavy , high density altitude , you're going to sort of feel those effects of that stability . They're going to kind of the magnitude is going to , you know , increase . You're going to tell the difference . But other than that , like you're talking about the windy , gusty day , minimal flap setting is going to help . Just remember that your stall speed , your stall margin , is reduced . And like you said you said it absolutely right You're going to increase your approach speeds and your maneuvering speeds . You always want to be about 10 knots . You know buffer with your maneuvering at less than full flap . So those are all good like metrics to kind of commit to memory as you kind of do .
Speaker 2Maybe more visual , you know wrapping around in the pattern If you're trying to do a short approach , like you know this quarter mile final and you know all these things which are fun and sporty and help everybody out in the pattern . But just remember your maneuvering margins . You know you bank that airplane up . You know your load factor goes up , which means your stall speed goes up and all these things they just compound . And then now your partial flap . So you know you're vastly different .
Speaker 2Your total angle of attack , your critical angle of attack , is vastly different . You can't even picture it in your head anymore . Even if you're an engineer , you can probably barely picture what has happened to your critical angle of attack , the angle of attack the airplane stalls at when you're cranking it around . You got a high bank angle , partial flap . I mean just you have everything working against you . Your stall speed is 40 or 50% higher than what you're used to Like .
Speaker 2I'm not joking . I think if you're at a 60 degree bank somebody could fact check this , but I'm pretty sure this accurate If you're in a 60 degree bank turn your stall speed is 40% higher than at , because at 60 degree bank you're at 2Gs . So at 2Gs your stall speed is 40% higher . I'm pretty sure that's accurate . Somebody could fact check it . Somebody probably knows the math on it , but it's just something to consider when you're a hot dog and you're wrapping it around , doing these short approaches which , don't get me wrong , are helpful and maybe can be courteous to other pilots in the pattern .
Speaker 2Things like that , don't get me wrong , can be fun , can be safe and can help everybody else out . Don't get me wrong , that's all great . Just be mindful . You do those things and then , oh , you overshot and you kick that rudder in to straighten it out , or so you think , and your stall speeds way elevated because your partial flap , you're in a highly banked turn and then you kick that rudder in and you're like at 300 feet . You're never going to recover , that You know , if you go into a spin , and those are all the elements that people eat it up on . So just be mindful of all that stuff , i guess . But , yeah , on a gusty day , partial flap because it's less lift , Your wing loading is a little bit higher and whatever , but probably what you got .
Speaker 1Let's read the chat here . Jared Johnson has fully embraced the new call sign . It says new handshake departure . Good morning , one whiskey . Whiskey , runway , heading 2000, . Climbing 3500 . Maintain PFR , clear of Bravo . Makes me sad when I get this .
And Ian says 91.123 , always wins . What is that ?
Speaker 1I don't know what that is . I don't know what that is . Jared Johnson's saying approach one whiskey whiskey request , go ahead . One whiskey whiskey , one whiskey whiskey request , pop IFR clearance to whatever .
Speaker 2Those are all sound radio calls that sound like to me .
Speaker 1Yeah , he's just practicing . I don't know the exact scenario , i just like that he's using the new call sign .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , he's more in tune with than we are at this point , one whiskey whiskey , yeah One . Whiskey whiskey , yeah Yeah One whiskey , whiskey two .
Speaker 1Whiskey , whiskey three . It's like a country song .
Speaker 2Yeah , right , yeah . The original question was what proper landing technique ?
Speaker 1Yeah , When the flare that was way up there .
Speaker 2Energy management . Well , i can't see the chat at all , so if there's something else but energy I guess I need to talk less . But energy management , and that's just a scale that comes with time . You know we're typically in , you know , in the like the CRJ , like the 700 900 , a little bit heavier and a little bit of a different way . We came in at about one degree nose up , one degree nose up to about level of the horizon And that would give us a three degree glide path And so in there and they're a little bit heavier , with a different way and stuff like that . But when you heard about 30 on the on the radar out to the call outs , you dropped the power and land . Crj 200 , you know , was about two and a half degrees nose down . Embryer 145 , that was pretty level I guess . But about at about 50 feet you heard that auto call out Drostlars , the idle , learjet . We do the same thing . We're pretty level on the horizon with the pitch attitude . That'll give us about a three degree glide path following an ILS or whatever or the Pappies Vassys . That'll give us a three degree glide path In about 50 feet . You can chop it .
Speaker 2I typically wait till it's all about 30 . I like to take that energy into the flare . And then , because my technique is a little bit different , you know , and I've talked about this before a lot of people look way down the runway . I don't do that so much . I do it sometimes , but most time I'm pretty close in , i'm not looking way far down , like a lot of people are taught , and I do do pretty good landing . So like I can't say anybody's wrong , but I know it works for me . So I tend to look in pretty close And that's just the way I've always done it . So I'm not I'm not saying that's right , i'm just saying that's the way I do it And maybe I would be better and more consistent if I did look further down . I don't know . So at about 30 feet , when it calls out automatically I'll , then I'll chop it idle .
Speaker 2But energy management is a huge thing in . It just takes time in the seat to figure that out . In the airplane you're flying , you know I've talked , i think , last year , when I was getting back into GA after years of not flying GA . It took me hours , probably five hours , of just nonstop takeoffs and landings , which maybe I probably did . I don't know 2030 , 2030 landings that way to get back comfortable , just because my energy management what do I want to say ? like my energy management perception was accustomed to the leer in my site picture , of course , was adjusted to the leer and jets and stuff and not the Cherokee that I'm flying to the , to the , you know , to the lake house . So it's like you got to relearn and you got to fly what you're flying when you're flying it And I like big picture stuff , but when it comes down to brass tacks , eventually you've got to be like okay , i'm gonna land on this thing , not that thing .
Speaker 2You know I got to land this airplane not what I fly for a living , and they're vastly different . I was coming very , very flat . I was , you know , a couple of times I came in , basically nose gear first was the first thing to touch , but I mean like right now I split second , so very , very flat , and then it then , as I honed it in , understood the difference in the site picture again just got reacclimated . You know it would be like the mains first , still the same you know type thing , but it would be mains first , then the nose gear , and then I just kept dialing in back and back and back till it was I'm getting back in more than that full stall . And there's a reason . Instructors teach that , which is just tough when I'm like , okay , i can do good landings in my airplane . They're playing a fly for a living . Now I need to get back in tune with this and it is just different . So , but there's a reason . So yeah , do all that . But energy management is the big one , i think .
Speaker 1Lear jets vastly different than a Cherokee .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I tend to land flat . I tend to land very , very flat And that's just my technique . And maybe that's my technique because of me looking in close versus way down the runway , i don't know . But I tend to get pretty good landings without any other negative side effects .
Speaker 1So yeah , ian says the reauthorization bill from the house with limited commercialization of N numbers should free up a bunch . It's interesting Yeah .
Speaker 2There's a lot of stuff in that bill , isn't there ? I don't know all the things in it , but I just saw that the house , i think , is passed at least bringing the bill to the floor for raising the mandatory retirement age for airline pass from 65 to 67 . Which I know Europe , i think , is mostly already done , if not all of them , so it was only a matter of time here . So that'll help some of the retirements at the airlines .
Speaker 1Then Aiman chimed in . Believe it or not ? we asked , in lieu of Jeff not being here , being your former student idol when you determined , the runways made Yes , That's what I said yeah , and I think there is a time and place .
Speaker 2But in a private pilot , i all , what did I just say ? like five times energy management , oh yeah , nothing gets you more in tune with energy management than basically power off 180s . That's all that is about . Yeah , yeah , yeah . But also knowing the airplane , because that you're doing power off 180s on a commercial in the CFI And what are you trying to show ?
Speaker 2You're trying to show mastery , you're trying to show that you understand this drag profile and spacing , timing , all these elements and you're trying to mash them together and make it work . And I try to just instill that understanding because I have seen so many people just do this three degree glide path in their singling and zero singling and moony , and it's like dude , if that engine fails on you . One , you have no idea how quickly that airplane is going to drop like a freaking rock . No clue , that's one And two , even if you do , even if you are good at at understanding how quickly it will drop , is understanding and knowing that it's going to drop like a rock doesn't do any good If you're in a position where , if it , if the engine fails , you're still going to crash , you're going to lay , in short , of the runway .
Speaker 2I understand flying an ILS to minimums in . You know it's a low overcast ceiling . Those are things you are accepting And that is the likelihood of what is outweighing what you know the benefit of shooting this ILS to minimums in a single engine airplane , or the fact that if the engine fails while I shoot this ILS , i'm going to come out the bottom and land in a farm field or on top of the building . You got to weigh all those things and I get all of that too . But to make it your everyday SOP to just fly this three degree glide path in your single engine airplane , i think is doing you a disservice .
Speaker 1Yeah . In my opinion , Yeah , all right , we're coming up on two and a half hours , so we got to shut this operation down . Thank you , everybody in the live chat .
Speaker 2Yes , thank you .
Speaker 1We'll probably do two or three more of these where we're all remote again before I get up to Ohio towards the end of July and hopefully we can continue on continuing on . Lee has talked about doing possibly up to like five episodes a year . We got a few in the books of like Lee Griffin one-on-ones . I think he gets frustrated , scott and I , on some of the guests we've had , of us derailing the conversation and not getting as good a stuff . So we may be adding that to the show which , if we could get five a season , that would save me a trip up to Ohio each year , which would be a good proposition . I think it'd be interesting too to see Lee be able to , as he puts it , extract information without having to deal with Scott and I out of some guests that have some knowledge . But we'll see how that goes .
Speaker 2Look forward to that . Stay tuned , stay tuned for that .
Speaker 1You got your microphone back now .
Speaker 2It was at the recording location . It's back at your house now .
Speaker 1Yeah , thanks for hanging out in the chat with us . Thanks for listening .
Speaker 2Yes , thank you .
Speaker 1Take care everybody .
Speaker 2All right , see you guys . Bye .