Pain Speak
Pain Speak
Pain Reprocessing Therapy Part 2 - A Lived Experience View
In this deeply human episode of PainSpeak, I’m joined by Fiona Symington, who shares her lived experience of chronic fatigue and persistent pain symptoms — and, importantly, what recovery felt like from the inside and what pain reprocessing therapy (PRT) meant to her.
This is not a conversation about quick fixes, techniques, or “getting it right.” Instead, Fiona gently walks us through the emotional and nervous-system journey of living in a body that no longer felt safe, predictable, or trustworthy. We explore the early signs that something was wrong, the impact of not being believed, and how fear, hypervigilance, and constant symptom-monitoring can quietly become part of the suffering itself.
Fiona reflects on the slow, often non-linear shifts that marked her path toward healing — moments of understanding, softening, and rebuilding trust rather than pushing or fixing. Together, we talk about identity, grief, and the unexpected challenges of recovery, including how unfamiliar safety can feel after long-term illness.
This episode is especially for anyone who feels exhausted by trying, overwhelmed by advice, or quietly worried they’re “behind” in their healing. Fiona’s story offers reassurance rather than instruction, and hope without pressure — a reminder that recovery does not begin with effort or perfection, but often with understanding, compassion, and a nervous system learning that it is no longer under threat. This conversation is shared as one person’s experience, not medical advice, and listeners are encouraged to listen gently, at their own pace. I am really gratefu to Fiona for her time and deeply impressed that she is now training to be a clinical psychologist in order to do the research and help people like her.
You can learn more about Fiona by checking her out on X @fionas_Story and Instagram @Fionas_Story
Disclaimer:
This podcast is for education and general information only and does not replace personalised medical advice. If you are experiencing ongoing pain or distress, please consult your healthcare professional.
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The Pain Speak podcast is presented by Prof Deepak Ravindran, a NHS Consultant specialising in Pain and Lifestyle Medicine. Dr Ravindran is also the author of the book, 'The Pain Free Mindset'
Get in touch:
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For Clinical Queries and consultations, please go to Berkshire Pain Clinic
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Mixed and edited by Rob Cao at...
This is PainSpeak with Dr. Deepak Ravindran.
SPEAKER_00:Hello and welcome to PainSpeak. I'm Deepak Ravindran, consultant in pain and lifestyle medicine, honorary professor at the Tea Tide University, Director of the Barkchair Pain Clinic, and author of the Pain-Free Mindset. In this podcast, I bring you the science, the stories and the strategies that are transforming how we think about and treat persistent pain. You'll hear from leading clinicians, researchers, and most importantly, people living with pain as we explore what truly helps. From neuroscience and nutrition to trauma recovery, sleep, movement, and mindset. Together, we'll uncover practical insights, the most advanced neuroscience understanding, and fresh hope for a life beyond pain. I'm glad you're here. So let's begin today's conversation. Hello and welcome to Pain Speak, another conversation that explores pain, healing, and the human stories that are there behind recovery. Today's episode follows on from another of the patient recovery episodes that I've been quite keen on doing. And today is very special because I'm getting the chance to speak to Fiona, who is herself a recovery and now trainee clinical psychologist working in the Oxford area. And she's someone who's lived through the reality of chronic fatigue, persistent symptoms, pain, and now who has had the courage and the ability to speak openly about recovery from a different perspective. To me, these are very important conversations that we are having. And these days in clinical practice and research, the voice of the lived experience is becoming very crucial, very critical to our advancement of research as we know it. And again, this story isn't about quick fixes, it isn't about miracles. It's about what happens when a nervous system has been under threat for a long time. And what becomes possible when safety, understanding, and self-compassion starts to prevate. So if you're listening and you're living with chronic pain or fatigue, especially if you felt misunderstood, not being listened to, not being validated, this conversation isn't here to pressure you to heal. I'm just here and I'm really glad that I'm joined by Fiona here to offer their understanding, permission, and hope without demand. In some ways, I'm grateful that Fiona has made the time today because this episode is coming on the back of heels of a recent episode by Dr. Chatterjee, a documentary that was screened on Channel 4. And Fiona was the patient that Dr. Raman Chatterjee spoke to, where she talks about some of the journey that's covered. But this is an opportunity to explore a little bit more into her journey and the technique that was mentioned in the episode pain reprocessing therapy. So, Fiona, thank you so much for being here and for your generosity in sharing your story. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and how would you like to introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so pleased to come and do this. I'm such a fan of your work. Um, so yeah, I'm Fiona and I live in Oxford. Um and when I was 11, I had um I developed chronic pain after a childhood of being very fit and well and happy and active. And um, I ended up living with uh very severe chronic pain for many years, um, and then actually developed ME CFS as well in my 20s, um, following lots of actually traumatic medical treatment, uh, sort of medical interventions that was sort of a very, very stressful period of my life and kept catching viruses and then and then ended up with this diagnosis of ME. Um, so in total, I had 25 years of symptoms. I had um 14 years of the ME, so really, really tough innings with it all. Um, very much thought I would be in pain um for the rest of my life and was busy trying to live a good life. I mean, struggling to do so, to be honest, really struggling with my symptoms and uh trying to survive and thinking that my life would be uh a struggle and and and grieving. So, you know, a big part of that journey was about learning how to exist and how to live with these symptoms and grieving all the things I couldn't do. Um, never thought I would get the ability back to do things again, um, all the things that I'd loved so much: cycling and hiking and dancing and swimming. And then I came across um pain reprocessing therapy seven years ago now. Um, looked at it initially, and this website kept popping up, and I kept ignoring it and thinking, no, that's stupid, that's not going to work, and it's insulting. And I saw the words bias psychosocial and I thought, absolutely no way, I'm not touching that. But these adverts kept coming up and I was really desperate. I mean, I think I think when you're in pain, you're often desperate, you do anything to get better. But I think that I was at that point in my life, I just think I was particularly desperate. So I I decided to to try the website, and I thought, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna really give my all to it. Um, and at least I can prove to myself that I've tried everything and I'm I'm I'm proving it's not all on my head, and I'm proving that there's something physically wrong with me. Um, and I went off and did it, and then really a matter of weeks later, I was symptom-free and and totally stunned.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and yeah, I've had so this is almost sorry to actually so this is almost 25 years of symptoms and pain. And you noticed a transformative improvement in about four to six weeks, you said? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but yeah, by by three weeks, I was thinking, wow, this is working. But I think it's such a big thing to get your head around that I I I didn't have confidence in that, and I I needed to really have a bit longer. So it's by six weeks. I was, I mean, I couldn't deny it, right? Because it it was just working. And um, and yeah, and I I've I've been on this amazing journey in the last seven years. I had to rebuild a huge amount of strength and fitness. I was very weak and very unfit. I had to work out what I wanted to do with my life. Um, I've I've had to rebuild friendships, all sorts of things. And yeah, I've just started training to be a clinical psychologist, which is absolutely a dream come true. I mean, all this all this time I've been thinking, you know, I had I I I because I so never expected to recover, there's this sense of like, oh, I want to help other people recover and I want to give this to other people. And and so yeah, I'm managing. Um, I've just just started my training, absolutely loving it. And I've got three years of training to get through now. But after that, I mean, there's going to be no stopping me. I think I just can't wait to get out there and be working with patients and clients and just having yeah, it's just a dream life. I mean, really, it's not not a perfect life, you know. Recovery doesn't get rid of all of your problems. I'm still living a life. There's still things that happen and struggles and all the rest of it, but but absolutely the most incredible, happy, rich life. And I'm I'm so grateful and so happy to be in this position.
SPEAKER_00:Brilliant, and I think it's fantastic that you are taking this way to actually pay it forward, you know, doing the clinical psychology role is going to be the most direct way to impact the patients who are going to be meeting you in the years to come. So that's that's fantastic. And and to me, it it makes me think, you know, we want to talk and unpack a little bit more about PRT. But I remember meeting you for the first time in in 2021 at a British Pain Society conference.
SPEAKER_01:I remember that. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And and you know, it struck me like, okay, here's someone who's again one of completely recovered. And it was just when I was starting to meet patients who recovered completely, and I was always curious to know the story. In some ways, I wanted to hear the narrative because for me the curiosity was well, what is it about this person's circumstances? What are the various things in the ecosystem that lined up for this person to experience a full recovery? Because I was seeing various spectrums in my own clinical practice. And so, if I had seen you in 2018, let's let's go back one step more there. So, if if I taken all the way back, you said you're absolutely fit and healthy, and then at the age of 11, you started experiencing chronic pain. Was there a trigger or an event at that point of time? And then at 2018, after having done all the treatments, as you said, the the eatrogenic harm as well. Yeah, how would it have been if I'd seen you in 2018 or 19? What how tell me about the Fiona I'd have seen at the age 11 and in 2018? I can't tell names, I can't take ages here, kind of in order to start. So let people work off the mass of it.
SPEAKER_02:So I mean, it I think at 11, I mean, the first few weeks of pain, I just because I I'd had I'd had a I broke my ankle, but I also fell off a horse. And I sort of I've always looked at those, it's sort of the both, both things of of my, I guess I had a a very minor trauma, right? I mean, we're not talking about serious accidents, but but two things that were sort of disruptive in my life and caused pain and and and probably looking back, it it changed my relationship with my body. And um, but actually the pain, I started secondary school and I really just woke up with it one day. It was in my knee. I was thinking, what's what have I done? Um, but I I really those first few weeks I went to the GP and I just thought, to be honest, I thought he was going to say, You've got a bit of inflammation or you've sprained something, here's a pair of crutches, maybe here's some anti-inflammatories. And I thought it was going to go home and get better. And and I think that um it didn't happen like that. So very quickly, really within weeks, I I was losing trust in the whole medical profession and and adults. I mean, that sense of being 11 years old and going to the doctor and then saying, well, we don't really know what's going on, and let's do this test. And oh, that test is is okay, and let's let's um let's do this scan, let's try on this medication. And and I then ended up in a had a series of hospital admissions because they were trying to first of all do more intensive testing, but they were also then saying, Well, no, let's get you into a physio program. So I I very quickly I was thinking, this isn't how life is supposed to work. I mean, you know, bearing in mind I was 11, um, there was a sense of, well, why, why am I not just being helped? And and I had the expectation they were going to make it better. So I became very mistrustful and very scared. And I think that I I very quickly had some bad experiences where, you know, some doctors were just saying to me, um, you know, there's nothing wrong with you and and and get up. And and they were quite tough with me, and the physios were quite tough with me, and it was very, it was very upsetting because I, you know, I was just in pain and I knew I was in pain. Um, so it was very scary that sense of not being believed. So um, you know, I became very um very mistrustful and very scared and very kind of closed in and not wanting to talk to people. So so you would have met somebody who was quite um hostile in some ways and quite quite quite closed in and quite quite difficult to talk to. And I became even more like that, that sense of um, you know, not wanting to talk, not wanting to open up, being scared of what was going to happen if I if I talk to people. Um and when I when I when I found this work and you know late 2018, I mean I was still in a position of, I think it had been years of just feeling like doctors were the enemy almost, and that maybe they were people that either didn't believe me or were going to dismiss me, or or you know, I'd also had lots of experiences of people saying, Well, we've done all the tests, we can't find anything wrong with you. So let's just look at you've got to manage being in pain, we'll never get rid of it. This is something you've got to sort of find find a way of living around, which is awful. I mean, especially as a child, I mean, that's a that's terrible, right? Pain is terrible. Pain is a horrible, horrible thing to live with. It affects all areas of your life. So although I, you know, when I started and when I when I started PRT and I and I recovered, I mean, obviously, like full of optimism, realizing that I had just never been given the ad the right explanation of of pain and my brain and how how pain works, and realizing that it's not, it doesn't have to feel threatening, right? It can actually just be an amazing explanation that helps people. Um, but but I had had all of these years of just thinking, like I wouldn't have trusted doctors. I wouldn't, it's so funny becoming a psychologist because I was very, very frightened of any healthcare professionals. If I I was used to say, if I'd met a psychologist in some other setting, a sort of casual setting, I would have pretended that I was okay. And sort of said, Oh yeah, hello, hi. And then I would have said, Oh, you know, I need to go off and go and use the bathroom or something. And I and I would have been out of there and I would have, I would have left. And I would, I, I did not want to talk. If somebody was any kind of medical professional, I didn't want to be in the same room as them. I didn't want to talk to them, I didn't trust them. Um, and and here I am all these years later, I've obviously been through a very drastic change because I'm becoming a psychologist. I've got great friends who are psychologists, know lots of lovely doctors, and and yeah, I'm just it complete 180, a huge, huge shift in my thinking.
SPEAKER_00:What made that change? What uh how was that information? So the information about PRT in 2018 was that as a lay person at that time, um, you know, you you were not in the healthcare profession at that time. Were your studies at that time in healthcare or not?
SPEAKER_02:I was I was not doing anything. I had done I so basically I did a an undergraduate degree in psychology when I was ill. Uh, so that was when I first developed ME. And I thought, I just thought I'd burnt out, right? Because I'd been living in a pain for a very long time, was very traumatized. And it just made sense to me that I was experiencing some burnout. And then the symptoms didn't go. And I made some friends with ME who were saying, no, no, Yon, this is not burnout. You have post-exertional malaise, you have uh, you know, my my um glands were swelling up, my throat. I sort of felt like I was getting flu any time I did too much. I was so profoundly exhausted. So they were saying to me, no, no, this is ME, and my GP, you know, she said, Yes, and we think it's chronic fatigue syndrome. Um, so I I initially thought, well, I'm gonna rest, I'm gonna look after myself, um, and then I'll be free to get on with like I'd still be in pain, but I thought I'd be able to do something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so I did my degree very slowly over five years and found that very, I mean, I was very, very unwell at that point and and find found that really hard. But I I then wasn't well enough to to work. So I was at home. Um, I tried volunteering and found that incredibly difficult. So I had to give that up. So I I really was just at home existing, trying to survive. So um yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And therefore, not working. So when you heard about the PRT, did you hear it in a do you remember how was it? Was it someone not medical talking about it? Was it what was it about PRT that intrigued you and said, you know what, let's give it a try?
SPEAKER_02:Well, this was just I was on my phone, I was on Instagram. Um yeah, there's a bit bit of comfort viewing, and and I and I and I was getting um targeted ads through that for the website curable. Um, and that's what kept coming up, and that's what I so I I clicked through to the website, and that's when I sort of said to myself, this is insulting, this is a load of rubbish. Um, but they kept I I kept having the ads coming up, and actually what swayed it for me is um I kept seeing testimonials from people saying, you know, you might be um skeptical, but this has changed my life, and just try it. And I that's what lodged in my brain. And I was very wary. I mean, I didn't want to um I think when you're you're chronically ill in any way, you're used to quacks, you're used to people saying, come along and give me 10,000 pounds and um and you'll be better. And I I was I was very skeptical, but I think that I just kind of couldn't shake it off that this was something that I needed to look at. So um, and I you know that that that desperation made me more open-minded in that moment of like, well, you know, if people are saying this works, what if what what would this look like if this did work? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I I think that, yeah, I think I've seen that and heard that in some many patients of mine there. And then PRT is one of those things when you when you had that conversation where you know when I trained in PRT as well, it was very difficult slash different for me because the whole of CBT and act is all about accepting, and then here's PRT saying actually recovery is possible in a very different way. You you I've heard you say so much now, Fiona, about the the emotional impact of sort of not being believed. You've spoken now as well about when symptoms were not investigated, not supported, not listened to the trust, the loss of trust in the system and in the people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What did what did that experience do to your sense of self and safety, both within your body and the system? Can you talk to that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's such a great question because I think if I was, you know, at the time that I was living with symptoms, I would have said, no, I'm fine. I don't feel I mean, I might have said I don't like doctors because some of them are really bad people or they're they're out to hurt you, or they they they have a God complex, right? But I I I don't think I really understood. And I this is the thing, right? I feel like at the time I, because when you have chronic pain, people think, well, you're oversensitive or you're overreacting or you're attention seeking. So you're you get very used to people just thinking bad things about you, and it's horrible. Um, so I knew that I was, you know, as a sensitive person and I was a worrier, but I I would have been quite stubborn about saying, no, I'm fine, I don't, I don't, there's nothing wrong with my mental health. There's nothing wrong with me in the sense of like I don't need to be making these symptoms up out of nowhere, which is what I thought people were saying, right? And I and that's very common. There's a lot of people who feel like if you talk about psychology in any way linked to pain, people think you're trying to say to them that you're just you're just weak, or you're not good enough, or you're making it up, or you're exaggerating your symptoms, or you're you know, you just it it does come down to you want attention. And um, but now now that I've recovered and I've gone through PRT and I've seen how um, I mean, to me it's very compassionate, right? It's it's not saying that you're making it up, it's saying your symptoms are real, it's just that your brain is involved in generating them, and we can we can help you calm them down. So I can see that I was very much in threat mode, and it and it's it's really sad. I don't want other people to be spending 25 years in pain if they don't need to be. And I'm I'm really keen that people are helped much sooner than I was. That's that's what really drives me. Um, and yeah, if I if I can sort of say to people that like sometimes you can think you know yourself, and then it's only when you really start doing this work and you have the right tools and you and you kind of have this guidance of PRT kind of is a framework, it sort of really helps structure how you look at yourself and what you learn about yourself. But I I was, I was very scared of people. Um, I was very scared of going out. I mean, I was indoors a lot because I was in pain, but actually, I think now there was an element of well, my brain was actively generating the pain to try and protect me, stopping me going out because I I did feel like I was physically at. risk from people. I felt like there was my, you know, I have I have a lot of experiences of feeling very bullied in a hospital environment. So no wonder my brain then felt under threat. It makes sense, right? It's a it's a healthy reaction in terms of I was in a way I was genuinely under threat. But um but no I was just very scared of the world. I was very waiting much waiting for like what's the next thing that's going to happen to me? Am I going to get cancer? Am I going to and that wasn't that wasn't health anxiety in the sense of like it wasn't ruling my life. No. There was just this thing in the background of like it made sense to me that something else was going to go wrong with my body at some point because my body was almost like a sort of enemy territory as much as like the outside world was but my own body there was a sense of like well what's going to happen next something is going to even if I didn't I didn't spend like day to day I wasn't thinking about that. But but it was all always there in the background I think.
SPEAKER_00:God and and and what you say thank you so much for articulating so clearly about the lack of safety that you felt around yourself but also within your body because that is something a lot of patients with a variety of pain complex when I see them in the pain clinic that's something that comes out to them when they reflect a bit more they actually say they just don't feel because they can't trust their own body anymore and then you had to deal with both the feeling in your body but also the system around you. How was that showing up for you? You know you talked about obviously physically pain but what did that mean emotionally and cognitively how was that present on a day-to-day basis?
SPEAKER_02:And I don't know how much it did in the sense that I think that you know if we take it that the brain is is like there's there's this there's fear and then it's generating pain to keep you safe I think a lot of it comes out through the pain anyway but I think I mean I certainly think that I used to get a lot of um you know if I was leaving the house I I would get very tired afterwards and there was a real sense of needing to retreat and needing to be on my own. I was probably very stressed around people and again I wouldn't have really been able to touch in with that and and describe that. But when I look back I sort of see myself like it was always a relief to be away from people and to be on my own and um and I I had all sorts of very soothing like I did a lot of creative stuff. I did some sewing and crochet so it's a funny one isn't it because I was doing this stuff that was essentially it's very calming and and we use it those kind of things therapeutically I mean there's all sorts of evidence around knitting for pain and um Bets and Korkel does some really great work in that but but you know although I was using the soothing work I suppose because you're not really touching base with the fact that there is all this fear there, I think that that can get stuck at the sort of you're you're working in quite a superficial way. And then as soon as I realized oh actually I'm trying to like recovery involves training myself to feel a deep sense of safety like the creative work is I'm doing the same stuff but it's it's a sort of it's a different the way I'm using it is sort of it's I I know now about like I'm really tuning in with myself in terms of saying I'm safe I'm I'm safe in the world I'm I've I've really built a sense of safety these days.
SPEAKER_00:Brilliant and I think that is a shift that you're talking about that shift that started with you doing the PRT those four to six weeks if if you were to take yourself back to that time in 2018 19 as you're doing the PRT from your layperson slash psychology background perspective and more importantly as a lived experienced person what did PRT mean for you? Can you describe PRT? I know the program I know in in in the uh Dr. Chattery one we couldn't go into that and I was quite curious like what did you take away from it what were the messages that stuck with you has your body started to feel safe and this is I mean I could talk for like 10 hours right I just I'll stop here on two minutes three minutes I this this is really like a such a passion for me.
SPEAKER_02:I just think it's the best thing ever and I so so it was it starts for me with learning about the brain and and the fact that the brain can create the symptoms to keep you safe. So it's about realizing that pain doesn't have to mean anything more than I think Alan Gordon says that you know pain is your brain's opinion and it's about starting to recognize that every time you've got symptoms you can stop and say oh that's my brain right now maybe not feeling safe and then taking a step back and say right what's going on for me right now what am I feeling right in this moment? What do I need to do for myself? Do I need to reassure myself that I'm safe and a lot of my early work was just doing that and it might have been just taking a step back mentally and saying hey look I'm in a room on my own I'm safe I'm physically okay there's no threat um I can move my limbs there's no physical injury which was mind blowing to say to myself actually there's nothing wrong with my body which you know I'd always thought there was there had to be because I was in so much pain but but re-educating myself to say I'm I'm safe and I'm okay um and I've you know there's almost a sort of like a reparenting yourself. So you're saying to yourself I've got you you're okay I'm gonna look after you very basic soothing messages. And yeah I think I think it's just it's a lot of repetition. I always try and say to people as well it's like you can't just do this once and expect everything to get better in an instance right this is about going over and over and over this message of being safe and and sometimes um it's not just soothing yourself it's also saying well what feelings are in me? What action do I need to take if I'm feeling angry what's my anger what's that there for is that telling me that that this relationship that I'm in is not or not not good, not safe? Is this person respecting me? Am I am I feeling okay? So so you know it's not it isn't all just about calming everything down. It's also saying well I've got anger coming up about this I've got um shame coming up I've got kind of excitement it's like really learning and I was somebody I thought I knew my own emotions I was always very I have a high level of emotional intelligence. I would have I would have scoffed at this a few years ago because I would have said I know what I'm feeling right I can tell you about my feelings but no this was about saying let's actually sit with it let's learn to be tuning in and to be okay with it.
SPEAKER_00:Let's learn how to express things safely um so it was a total re-education and it was just yeah I I I always try and say to people don't be it's all very well to say well I know what I'm feeling but but you know yeah I thought I did as well and I still had so much to learn and and that's that's all of it it's getting to know yourself it's getting to know what matters it's almost viewing yourself as like there's a little inner child and there's the sort of healthy adult part of your brain and it's about you know maybe as a health maybe as sort of an adult you you're having to kind of keep going and and you're okay but what does your inner child what does that part of you need and quite often the answer is it needs some looking after and it needs to be heard in a way that it hasn't been heard before um that part comes through God really I I think you've you've raised points and and you know raised things and aspects which are coming up in other therapies isn't it for example the inner child and the parts thing is something that now is being crystallized as this form of internal family systems kind of approach where you talk about parts there. So it's interesting that you could feel all of that and of course the primary thing from a neuroscience basis I completely agree I think to repeat that message to yourself of safety has to be done multiple times because I think both from a from a marketing perspective I I know that you you have to learn uh listen to a message many times before you take it on and from a neuroscience perspective we know that repetition actually builds new neural circuits that can fire and wire so actually for your body to take on that message of safety there has got to be that consistency in your practice that you have to do over and over many times so that the body can start to feel safe.
SPEAKER_02:I mean completely I think in a way that's like almost you've got to reassure the body that's safe and you have to keep reparenting the word that you used is is so useful isn't it and and I think this is something I find in my clinical practice as well is that many people with chronic pain with fatigue will often tell me that they have just feel trapped in that cycle of pushing the boom and busts trying to fix and all there how did your relationship with your body change as you started to take on this message and move towards healing and oh it's a really hard one to answer because it's like you know my recovery happened very quickly but then I've also kind of continued doing work in a way that I mean it's very easy work right it's just work on getting to know myself so it's a nice it's not hard it's it's easy but I I mean I was so unfit as well that I really I just had to be very kind to myself I think I would say and I and I I had to do a lot of I just built things up very gradually and I my my thing in that first year was to say to myself I just need to walk because walking is such a sort of basic such a human thing we all you know like we we've evolved walking right it's something that's very accessible. So I just I did a lot of trying to build up my walking and I and I would stop on my walks and I would I would check in with myself um and try and see like well what's going on for me right now and and and try and build a sense of like you're okay you're safe um and it was such a rush it was so exciting that those early early sort of months it wasn't sort of I think it was just such a I mean it wasn't easy but it was also just very exhilarating but I think it's I think it's more like it probably took two years I think realistically to start really getting some confidence in moving and trusting my body and just feeling I want to use the word normal I hate that word but but you know up until then there was it it was such a massive time like length of time to have had pain that it it did take me it doesn't take everybody but took me a long time to sort of I didn't have to worry then I could suddenly think I was going to do things and not be figuring out in my mind oh am I doing too much is this going to be is this going to push me too much and um but you know even now and I'm seven years in and I and I am so fit and active I'm so lucky like I'm really really well and I I've done all sorts of physical things still building strength and fitness you know I'm not I'm not as as quite quite where I'd like to be but that's okay lots of people are in that boat who've never had pain but I you know one of the things I absolutely love about PRT and um some people some people because they're they're sort of really wary of it they'll say well you know if you're recovered why why why do people need to um like sometimes you can sort of subscribe over a life membership to a particular programme and people will say well why do you need that if it's such an amazing therapy and I suppose it it does come down to we we can always do work on ourselves and I I've still sometimes having little revelations where I'm thinking oh okay this is what I'm feeling now this is why I feel it you know I can sort of think about certain triggers this is what I need to do to take care of myself it's okay to take care of myself and I I just I I I'm so passionate about this process that it it just helps you get to know yourself and we're all I mean we can all do that in lots of different ways it doesn't have to be PRT but for me it's specifically something to do with my recovery where I'm still learning to look after myself I still have things to learn about myself and it's just a it's just this sort of journey of discovery really so that that ties in with like being in my body building confidence in my body you know being healthy got so many so many pings and questions that I had when you're telling about this there so let me go in my head in in in the fashion I want to ask so when you said check-ins what does that check-in mean like does it mean checking your thoughts or checking and doing that somatic tracking like you know checking your movements and what that what does check-in actually mean in an operational basis for you?
SPEAKER_00:What does that mean?
SPEAKER_02:And it can be different things and sometimes I mean some people I know right they keep up a a practice of journaling and somatic tracking and it's a it's a lot more intensive for me it's not I'm very lucky but it can just be I'm feeling a bit stressed and run down oh I'm gonna go and do some journaling it can be oh hang on I've got a feeling coming up that's really strong what actually is that what do I need to how do I how can I identify because I I it's one of the things as a teenager now I recognize that I used to have some really big feelings and I had no idea what they were I was completely in the dark. It was just this sort of soup of difficult feelings. I knew they were bad feelings but I I I sort of now I can look back and say well actually it was this feeling and it it was there because of this happening. So you know that's I'm still looking back part of the process of of kind of when feelings come back come up now it's like oh hang on I remember that coming up when I was 13 or 14 and I was in an environment where I was scared. So I might sit with that and just tune in. I I definitely still do the reparenting thing along the lines of like even I was taught um some imagery rescripting as part of schematherapy actually which is like IFS and and so I I very much use that that sense of I try and picture a I try and go back in time like if it's shame coming up or it's fear coming up I try and just scroll back and pick something from childhood where I maybe felt that and I try and imagine myself as a as an adult coming in and looking after that younger me and and reassuring me. And that it's very it's a very lovely exercise to do. But it can also you know at times it can be something like I get a stress headache and then I'm I'm I I'm far enough into my journey that I know well there's nothing wrong with my head my brain's okay it's a mild stress headache and then my instinct might be to say oh well I've had a busy week and then I can sometimes say well no hang on let's stop and let's see well what is it that's triggered that where have I felt overwhelmed it is at the moment it's usually I feel a bit overwhelmed and I feel a bit there's a little bit of fear coming up and and it's and it's just stopping and rather than dismissing it it's just saying okay what's made me feel bad and and just working with that again sometimes I do somatic tracking but it's much more of a I'm just very used to just doing a sort of something around soothing myself and and looking after myself I think it's very it's very like it's little it's little things right it's this is the thing I think it's really important to stress that this might be two minutes out of my day right it's not it's not an intense process of keeping the pain away it's like little bits here and there.
SPEAKER_00:That's something I want to ask actually this process of checking or tracking is that something as you said that's useful to know so these are small few minute check-ins because sometimes I think that when I tell patients or talk about check-ins or this kind of tracking could that be cognitively tiring itself you know can that be exhausting to constantly keep checking in but you made it clear that it it is shorter periods and you can come down small check-ins rather than get too wrapped up in that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah and I think I think I've had a couple of people look at it at PRT and say oh well I don't want to do that because you're if you're doing it if you're still doing work now I'll never be okay I'll never be free and it's actually no it's nothing like that. I I am free to live my life this is a very tiny part of my day and so I think some people I can absolutely imagine that they're setting aside time to do some journaling and if they don't do that they're not really scheduling in time they slip or they start to have symptoms but but for lots of us this is a a background little conversation going on in my head and it's like or maybe when I go to bed I'm lying in bed and I'm not I'm doing mindfulness and I'm and I'm sort of doing a body scan or something and you know this this really is I I feel so free.
SPEAKER_00:I don't feel tied down to these exercises it's just you just they become part of your life they become part of like you know there's an there's an emotion coming up oh what's going on there it's it's such a such an easy thing to add into life I think and I think that's the crucial part isn't it Fiona we are right now you know when I talk about lifestyle medicine people are talking about longevity when you have a long-term condition we are meant to change some of our lifestyles and and in all of those conditions nobody is suggesting or pretending that you do them for two months and then you're going to be free of diabetes or obesity for 10 or 20 years. It is an ongoing practice we are expected to change our lifestyles and then the new set of techniques and dietary habits and physical activity habits and sleep habits are something we are meant to make a habit something that then becomes part of our daily routine. So I completely get what you're saying that PRT once you've done that bit there I think deploying some of those techniques as part of just routine good habits of living and looking after your body and ensuring that it continues to feel safe is can be made natural and can be just made a day-to-day thing rather than saying oh I've got to go and do this isn't it I completely get that in response to one of the things that I had and I wanted to ask this so when you did that transformative four to six week period did you do it supported by someone or are you one of those uh stories who have been able to do it by reading a book or doing PRT by themselves? How how was their journey for you?
SPEAKER_02:It was just me and it was just I I was just using curable as a website and I would always say to people I I firmly believe most people if they've got a good website or a good book or a good YouTube channel that that they like the information on there most people as it's what's so incredibly exciting most people can do this on their own you you make it work around you you should never I I mean I see some people go and treat it like a sort of homework task where they're they're sitting down and they're really really working hard and getting very stressed about trying really hard and I just would say like this is this can fit into your life this is sort of five minutes here and there of exercises and and and it's the sort of you know repetition through the day a little bit here and there. So I was completely on my own and I I did then in my first year of recovery because it was so incredibly overwhelming I I went and had some therapy was very lucky to access that and that was such a huge support for me. But that was with a psychologist that wasn't somebody who knew anything about PRT and she was really it made sense to her she was really pleased for me and we did deeper work on kind of you know me and my feelings generally but no I I did this just with the website um and that's how people could do it I think.
SPEAKER_00:Fantastic no definitely I think there have been different approaches I tend to uh offer or at least suggest my patients exactly the same a curable uh referral as well as uh asking them to read Alan Gordon's way out the book as a good introduction and primer and there are some who then say well you know what I could understand it resonates but I still need help and that's when I've then referred them to a a PRT therapist that I work with. So that's been my thing understanding that for some people just that understanding of pain and and getting that recovery stories for example or capable understanding is is a good enough start and sometimes a complete enough start. You're talking about overwhelm that needed the support is That's something that you've been since in the last seven years, presumably you've spoken to other PRT uh recovery people, probably other people in a similar circumstance to yours. That overwhelm when people recover, is that something unique to your sort of reflection and looking back in the rearview mirror of 20 years of a life, not being able to let it was that the overwhelm you think about, or is PRT associated sometimes with this kind of overwhelm that might need further support then?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I thought you know, it's such a we're all on such a personal journey with this. I do know other people that have recovered, and then I think it is I I think we are so taught to believe that pain is just something that you have to live with, and it's a shock. It's a shock when there's something actually really quite simple that can make you feel better. And I mean for me, there's a lot of grief around what would life have looked like if I'd had access to this when I was 12 or 13. And I mean, what a what a different life I would have lived in. And and for me, I mean that's a tragedy, right? I'm always going to going to wonder what life could have been, and mostly just because I suffered so much. It's not it's not even about, well, what could I have done with my with a job or this or that? It's just I really, really suffered. I was in very severe pain at times. Um, but no, I think, I think it's just it's not something to be scared of. It's just that, and and as we go forward, I mean, people, I'm hoping that we'll have people will have access to it sooner. So they don't they don't need to worry about, you know, what could life have been without this. But I think I think certainly seven years ago, there were still a lot of people just coming across it, were very shocked by the fact that they had recovered. Um, and it and it is just it's a lot to get your head around. And I and I and I would always say, I mean, any big change is scary. And although mine was a very, very good change, it's human beings don't necessarily cope very well with with change. And so I sort of I suddenly had to think, you know, what am I going to do for work? I don't, I didn't have really any anything of a CV. I think I'd done a little bit of waitressing at one point and not for very long because the pain was too bad. Um so I I just had a, I mean, I think I had a particularly difficult time in the sense that I was so isolated and I had my life was based around lying on the sofa, lying in bed, managing the pain, managing my fatigue, just managing my symptoms. That's like a full-time job, right? So um, but that's where I'm working so hard to try and get out there and talk about it so that people are not in that position. But you know, to come back to this thing of did I just use a website or or somebody else, you know, some people I and again I've I've spoken to so many people recovering, and there's no shame in it. And I think that um like actually some people do only get so far, and then it's only when they access support that they they really get there. And I would just say to people, you know, do whatever, whatever's gonna help you get there. I mean, it's so it's your health, it's the most precious thing. And there are some now sitting here, um, there are some fantastic health coaches and psychologists and physios and and and and doctors, and you know, we've really got some some good knowledge out there and a real community. Now, there's so many people out there who can help you if you only get so far. So if if people recover and they do feel daunted by, well, you know, it's things like people have got to think about getting off benefits and they've got to think about who are they suddenly if you're well, you know, you can feel like a burden when you're in pain. It doesn't mean to say you are, but you can feel like your whole identity can shift with a disability. And suddenly you're you're starting you're starting to relate to people in a different way. And um there's even questions around, like, you know, if you're suddenly saying to your friends and your family, well, actually, I'm now not in pain, you're you're bound to some people worry about, well, are they going to think that I was making it up? Um it's very, it's very hard saying to people to explain it. And again, now there's enough people who've recovered that you're not on your own. If you ever if you find yourself in that position, there's lots of us out there who can back you up and say, No, you you did have the symptoms, and it's just that this is this is neuroscience, right? This is an amazing therapy that um when you when you use it, you do have a chance of getting rid of some symptoms, but it it doesn't take away from how terrible they might have been. And yeah, you've got people backing you up and and who know what it's like to have to explain to people and go through it.
SPEAKER_00:That's really helpful for you. Now, in this journey, so you've described a six-week transformative period that took you from a completely different identity of someone who has got chronic illness to then realizing that actually something shifted, and this shift means you can be normal again. And then you talked about the feelings of overwhelming in your case, they're very natural, you know, the grief or even fear of whatever that ill person identity that you had or forced to have for almost 20 years is gone away, and then the recreation of a new Fiona had to come through. So I can appreciate that help there. But all of these, as you indicated, are periods where you might have had some flare-ups or setbacks. How did you manage those flare-ups and setbacks? What was your strategy for uh taking care of those setbacks, maintaining that trust and safety in your body and and not letting it slip away?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I did a lot of I because I I'd missed walking so so desperately when I was in pain. So a lot of it was about going out into nature and taking some deep breaths and saying to myself, if this feels hard, it's because it is hard. It's a very massive change. I can't go to my GP and say, Hey, can you put me in touch with a support group for lots of other people who've done this before? Because I didn't know anybody, they didn't know anybody, right? Um, so it was it was lots and lots of self-compassion, and I've I probably wasn't good enough at that. And I really, through therapy, learned more about self-compassion, and um, and I'm much better at it now, and it's it's crucial. I mean, I don't think you can go through this without lots of self-compassion. But I had a friend, Louise, who um she was uh just forever so proud of her. She was, I I sort of had told friends when I recovered, I put a Facebook post up, and um, she was the first person who said, Oh, I think this is relevant to me. And um, and so she went off and tried curable and she also recovered, and and and now all these years on is is doing a wonderful job as a health coach. But I thank goodness right, I had her because it was such an alien thing to be doing. And um I I know I did a lot of messaging her and saying to her, help, this is really overwhelming. And actually, we've got such a lovely friendship because we were in this very strange, very overwhelming position together. And we we both reached out to each other and said, Oh my goodness, this is this is having a really scary day, and I'm totally overwhelmed. And and and that, I mean, I would always just say to people, reach out, like reach out and talk to another human being who gets it, because there's nothing like that. But yeah, sometimes, oh my goodness, I went and got into bed, I went and got under my D V and shut the world out and had a panic and just maybe listened to some music or went on Instagram or just I I had many moments like that in the first year, and it's very weird looking back at being in that headspace because I'm you know I'm I'm doing so well now, but I really needed some time um to just retreat and remind myself that I was doing my best and and there, you know, there's no rush to to manage recovery.
SPEAKER_00:Um these setbacks can last maybe a few hours to a few days, or were you noticing that as you recovered they were getting shorter?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And they're and they're so normal. And I think that uh luckily, I mean, this is where the recovery community, I find it very compassionate and very loving and very supportive around the fact that I think again Alan Gordon, who I'm a massive fan of, you know, he sort of says it's about you get to reflex your recovery muscles. And some people they have these setbacks and they have a huge panic. And I get that it's very scary, but it is, it's just another chance to say, okay, go back to basics. Even if you're three or four years down the line, right? You go back to basics, you remind yourself of of all the things that you've been taught, and you use the tools, and and generally what we see is that they work and people get back on track, but but not before sometimes people do end up having a panic, and you know that you can you can spend weeks sometimes actually backing symptoms, and it's about just just try and kind of calm down, come back to come back to the community, come back to all the knowledge that's out there, ask people for help, um, and and you'll get it.
SPEAKER_00:And I and I think that's been the biggest as as a pain consultant in the last few years, that's been one of the biggest things I've been really thankful for is this vocal presence and awareness of the peer support community, of the recovery groups. There is so much that has come through in the UK in the last five, six years that's there. That and I think that's so important, isn't it? Because if we are social animals, we need to belong. And I think as you're recovering, as exactly as you said, you had Luis with support for a lot of patients, they do still feel alone with their chronic pain, even their family doesn't understand them, yeah, their immediate, near and dear ones struggle to make sense of what then had happened before, what's happening now, why? It's such a big thing. So I think having that peer support, the non-judgmental someone to back you up to take you through the you know, the squeaky lines of recovery, it's never a linear uh recovery pattern. So you know, that is such a great important part there. During all this time, has your support from your family, from your nearer, dear ones, how would you frame that? Is that been variable, or do you feel that's at least been a constant source of support as well?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, well, and I think you know, so I had a year and a bit of recovery and then and then the uh the pandemic hit and the lockdown. So that was really, really tough because I I was just starting to build some confidence and to start to get out to things. And I was I was really sitting there thinking, okay, I'd like to do this, I'd like to do that, and then everything shut down, and it was it was very, very brutal. But um I think it's just it's just grown in the sense that I I really had to work hard on opening up to people. I'd lived for a very long time being very closed down and right under threat. So I've tried to look at this this last seven years as an opportunity to learn and to practice being a bit more vulnerable with friendships. And as I've done that, I've seen that that's okay, and I've made some really close friendships, and that's been such a revelation because I I think probably my therapist was there saying you you the way that you develop deep friendships is by opening up. And I was sitting there thinking, I don't want to, I don't I don't want to feel my feelings, and I don't want to open up and connect with people, and it's not safe, but actually it turns out it is safe and it makes life brilliant. Um, and it's part of recovery to reconnect with the world, I think. Um, but you know, for me, the biggest joy, and I knew as soon as I recovered, I thought, oh my goodness, and I saw it, I started to see it work with other people, and I was like, Yeah, this is a thing, this is actually this is actually something that is going to really start to change the world. A bit of time, it's gonna take take a while, and then it will snowball because every person who recovers they go and tell five people and say, This is amazing, please have a look at it. Um, so I knew that there were going to be more recoveries, and I just I didn't know quite how that was gonna work and what it was gonna look like. But actually, we're we've just got this recovery community uh online, and then you know the people have met up in person and there've been conferences and there's been all sorts of things going on, but my support network has just grown because people find this work, they get better, they get really passionate about it. It's just lovely. I mean, there's nothing like getting your life back and getting rid of something that's been really horrible. It's just it's the most incredible experience. And so we're a sort of little tribe of like how do you explain it to other people if you've never experienced chronic pain, right? And then you've got rid of it, it's it's so magical. And so my friendships have just grown and grown. And I think um I try and imagine where we're going to be in 10 years' time. And I don't, I don't know everybody, right? The community is getting very, very big, so a lot of recovery is happening. Uh, and some people choose to go off and live their life and and not connect. That's fine as well. A lot of people, you know, if you already have a community around you, you don't necessarily need the recovery community, but but we we have become, you know, we all we all share each other on and we're all in contact, and there's really good friendships that have developed. And um, so so you know, did I have lots of friends when I was ill? No, I didn't. So I sort of I think I was so starting from scratch, but the people I did know who I've then explained about my recovery, people have mostly just been so supportive and said, Well, I'm so glad this worked for you. And I don't know how much some people understand. Some people most people get it. Yeah, maybe some people don't, but but almost everybody has just come back and said, We are so glad that you're okay and we're so happy for you. And it's just lovely. So it's good.
SPEAKER_00:That's really hurtful. And I think you bring so much important attention to the fact that ultimately it's that connection and that community is going to be one of the two of the necessary ingredients for ensuring that recovery is maintained and sustained, isn't it? And and that, and that that is it's in itself being aware, you talked about compassion, and I think with hindsight, we all realize how important compassion is. I think there have been some books written on connection, community, compassion. So I think this is something that is truly a necessary piece of our social fabric now. So is there something you would want to say? Maybe you now know that you didn't or couldn't have heard earlier in your journey?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Is there something that you you know you told briefly mentioned that when you saw the words biosychosocial, you just weren't ready, but anything else that you know now you weren't ready to hear back in your journey?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I think that in the last 10 years, I mean, I really think we've come so far in in just some of the tools available and and the community that exists. And I think I'd I I just always want to say to people, um really just to give this a try. And I I I was so stubborn, and I had had really good reasons for being stubborn, and I was trying to protect myself, but it's very easy just to sort of think that you like if you're the one living in pain, that you of course you know best in lots of ways about your body, but I I I really hate when I when people say to me that won't help me because of this or this or this.
SPEAKER_00:And I think do you know I don't this sounds nice, but it's not for me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I j I just do not want people to suffer m if they don't have to. And I know this, you know, PRT doesn't help everybody, right? And it isn't a miracle. It's like it has a lot to offer a lot of people, and it's not it's not for everybody, and it and it has to be the right time for somebody to do it, and nobody should, you know, if that's what you feel, nobody has a right to push you into it. Um, and I did it when the timing was right for me, but but I so feel like there's people who dismiss it very quickly because of bad experiences or because they've read things that you know something hasn't resonated. And I and I I think it is just to say to people like even if you try it, and it's not about doing it and expecting to have some miracle recovery. Some people it just gives them better management of their pain and their life is just improved a little bit, and that's worth it with pain, right? Any improvement's good, but even if even if you can just do it just with a view to sort of checking it out, making sure you understand it to rule it out, I I I just feel so strongly that it just it's such a lovely thing to do. It give it has so much to offer. Um, and sometimes it's really you might feel really strongly that it's not for you, but it's really worth just having some curiosity and just giving it a go and reach out. You know, if you if you're feeling like you're not understanding some of it, or it's just not, you just you can see that it should work, but it's not like I would always say again, like ask people who've been through it, because there is a lot of there are tweaks that you can have you can make to it. There's ways you can you can be doing the work on a sort of quite irrational level, but sometimes you need a bit of support with really accessing your feelings. And um it's just been it's just been so worth it. It's just been the best thing I've ever done. And and I and I dread to think, gosh, if I'd spent the last seven years with symptoms, I I I you know, I couldn't, I couldn't cope. I and I don't know what what life would have been looking like because I was really at the end of my rope. So um yeah, just just to be just just have a go. I know it's so hard to be open-minded about these things. I know there's a lot of quackery out there and people trying to exploit you when you're in in pain. That there are, but this is different. And I I was very, very resistant to anything like this, and there we go, it's helped me, it's giving me given me a life back that I just didn't think of.
SPEAKER_00:And no side effects or no, yeah, you know, nothing. And I think that that is definitely one of the reasons why I think we should not really be dissing PRT and be open to offering it more. What do you wish clinicians uh knew? You know, you talked about this messaging for the lived experience. So, as a lived experience recovery yourself, what do you think clinicians need to understand about PRT? Or what do you wish they had been different in the way they talk to you?
SPEAKER_02:I love that question, and I think I think the thing I would say is PRT, we are developing an evidence base very slowly. It's like this much at the moment, but please, please look at it and don't discount it despite that, because there's so many anecdotes of people saying this has changed my life. And it's a process, so you know it's not overnight. So people have got experience of being in pain, it gets rid of your symptoms, the symptoms come back, you use it again. Like we we know that this is helping us. So please, like, please, please be open-minded to the fact that this is a bit, we're on the cusp of something amazing. But I think that for me, you know, I know with pain, right, when you've got a lot of people coming to you, and I think with pain, there's so little that sometimes people can do. There's there's some things, right? But I think there's a lot of frustration and a lot of hopelessness. And actually, I needed, in order to listen, I just needed to be told, actually, we believe that you're in pain. And I didn't get that. I had a lot of of real unkindness from doctors. Um, and you do still hear about it from all sorts of other patients. There's a lot of distrust of doctors, and I I do actually firmly believe that most doctors are trying to help, right? But these experiences, when if somebody comes away and they don't feel believed, it it can be so damaging and it can really put somebody off engaging. And so I I just feel like um really, really taking the time to say to your patient, like I actually I believe you, and and and and and then also offering some hope. I mean, to me, PRT is about hope, um, and being able to say to people, actually, there are other people out there that are managing like sometimes it is just about management, right? But some there is something out there that um can help, is is just yeah, being believed and and being given some hope is is everything. And if I'd come away from some of my early appointments, going really far back when I was 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, very sensitive time of life, all sorts of other things going on that that a kid has to get their head around and lots of change. And I just had there was just nobody sitting there saying to me, I'm so sorry that you're in pain and and and I want to try and work to help you. And I think what I know about PRT is about, you know, it's about fear. So actually if somebody had been very reassuring, I think my pain would have likely calmed down anyway. So you don't, you can, you can kind of be using bits of PRT without actually being explicit about not not I'm not saying that you're using something against somebody's will and being covert. I just mean that there's something about connecting with somebody and being reassuring and being kind. That person's brain is not in threat mode. They're feeling safe and and that has a that has an impact on somebody's pain anyway, right?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. No, I think that's such a really hopeful and reassuring message there. And that is really what we want to get across to clinicians these days as well with patient-centered care. So I I do see there is a bit of top-down messaging coming. So it's really useful to hear from a patient perspective as well that that's really what you want that hope that reassurance that coming. We're almost coming to the top of the hour Fiona there. Is there anything you've now made it your mission to to almost pay it forward do you want to tell us a little bit more about what the next few years are looking for you in terms of your career and research as well.
SPEAKER_02:So I'm busy so very busy. So I I I'm studying at Oxford I'm absolutely just completely over the moon I I got this place on on the uh Oxford doctorate in clinical psychology. So I have three years ahead of me of doing bits of research hopefully a little bit in in PRT still waiting to to get um get all of that sorted out but hopefully going to going to do some research because you know we do need research that's very important I believe in research being done and patients deserve that. But I'm I'm caught up doing all sorts of different placements just to kind of you know have to do um older adult placement and and child placements and placements in learning disabilities and really just kind of spending the next three years and it's a transition right from having been a patient to being somebody recovered who does some lived experience work into being a professional. And then actually what I want to do I mean I just I want people to have access to this. I want people to some people will then choose to not use it. That's fine. That's their decision and it's and and I respect that but I want people to know that it might be an option for them and it might help. And I just want to think that I want to reach as many people as I can and help them get out of pain and get their lives back and go out there and be happy and that's the thing that that's the thing I think about every single day is like you know this this is such a life changing therapy and what what could be possible if we could get millions of people out of pain or just just better manage pain. Right. So um yeah I'm I'm concentrating on my training I'm really excited having got this this documentary out on channel four. I mean that's a huge moment to get PRT on on national TV, get people talking about it um hopefully we've reached some some good people and you know all those people that might go off and recover off the basis of that program being out there. I mean those people you know who are they then going to help and what are they going to do in terms of spreading the word about it. So um yeah I'm going to get get myself through the three years and then and then we'll see about afterwards but I'd love to work with pain I'd love to work with children in pain actually that's a real passion but um but we'll see about how the three years goes and what state I'm in at the end of it and yeah working very hard.
SPEAKER_00:Well wish you the very best Fiona that's such a fantastic way to bring the law of compounding it so really amazing work that you're done there. Where can people find you? I know you're doing your part to sort of spread the message and and go on many channels. Where can people find you now if they want to sort of pick your brains further whether they are lived experience or whether they are a clinician?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah I think so I'm on Twitter and I'm on Instagram and I'm also very much directing people through to Living Proof as well as an organization because they are working to kind of help people access resources around PRT and I think at the moment because I'm working so hard on my doctorate um it's about it's about sending people through to Living Proof and they're they're fantastic they're recovery led just people who really understand PRT and they can they can point you in the direction of um all sorts of good resources. But yeah you can find me on Twitter and Instagram and I'm always happy to chat I don't you know I don't have endless time to to do lots of I can't I can't work as a coach right now I'm not sort of offering private therapy but um but I love talking about this so I so yeah I'm always really happy to to chat if people want to reach out and get a bit of of of advice.
SPEAKER_00:Fantastic we'll put those details in the show notes as well. So Fiona as we come towards the end i I'm really thankful again for you sparing the time to talk to us to talk to me today about PRT from that perspective and and what really stays with me having listened to a few versions of your story on a few other podcasts that you've been on is it's not just that recovery is possible but then how human it is and and what you've described to me today is is not just about willpower or or hope or posture it's it's a long it's all of these things given how long your journey has been. But to me it comes back again it's about safety it's about learning to trust your body that's been sounding this alarm of threat for such a long time. And so for anyone who's listening who feels uh broken or failing or things haven't been done the right way or you've been listened to your story I think quietly challenges that narrative and I do hope that the work that you've done with Rangan and the work that you're going to do now really makes that difference and makes that impact. And you know it reminds us that healing doesn't begin with doing more and more but it's about just understanding and I think your PRT and what you have said really makes a difference. So thank you for sharing not just what helped you recover but actually what it felt like while recovering what was recovery like and what the process is and seven years on how far you've come and and where you're taking now the next step. So thank you once again for listening to Pain Speak. And if this conversation has resonated with you please listen again share it with anyone you know who might benefit from this and please this is not to extract instructions or or give there but this is to just notice what felt reassuring or relieving in your body as you listen to this conversation. We know that healing journeys are not linear. It's a squiggly line as I described and they're not never going to be identical. Fiona's story is going to be very different from a few other stories that I have listened to and will talk about in the future but stories like Fiona remind us that the nervous system can learn safety again and that's something that can be sustained for as long as Fiona's doing so Fiona thank you once more for your openness for your courage and compassion thank you thank you so much for joining me on PainSpeak if you found this conversation helpful please share it with someone who might benefit. And don't forget to subscribe or leave a short review. It really helps others discover the show you can find more resources talks and updates about my work at my websitepakravindron.co.uk or connect with me on the various social media platforms I frequent LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube and certainly subscribe to my YouTube channel. Until next time stay curious stay compassionate and remember small steps do make big changes on the journey to a pain free mindset. I'm Deepak Ravenson and this is Pain Speed