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The Power of Understanding and The Sales Process, With Mike Brooks of audIT

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In this episode, Dan talks with Mike Brooks of audIT about sales.

The two talk about the importance of understanding the knowledge level of who you are selling to,  prospecting tips, and more. 

Connect with Mike:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikesbrooks/
Website: https://www.auditforit.com/

Speaker 1:

Hello, I'm Dan Thomas Shefsky and this is the connecting it podcast.[inaudible] welcome to the connecting it podcast. I'm your host, Dan Thomas Shefsky and joining me today is Mike Brooks, director of sales and marketing for audit. Mike, it's nice to have you on, I've known you for a long time and I'm honored to have you on the show today.

Speaker 2:

Dude, I'm honored to be here, man. You're one of my favorite people in the channel. Uh, you know, you're, you're one of the first clients, uh, you know, I got to talk to on a regular basis. Um, obviously you, you used to use audit when, when you were an MSP and it was just a blast, always working with you as had great things to say, great feedback, and you were killing it, you know, as a, as MSP man, I, I used to love watching you and we still, we still use your sample report to give it to people from, from the old days.

Speaker 1:

Oh, there we go. So let's get into that a little bit. So today we're going to talk sales and that's one of the things, one of the reasons we brought you on, uh, is, you know, you're always posting lots of great sales tips and I don't think enough people are hearing some of them and you also get to see what's going on in the space. So that's first dive in what is audit do. And can you take our listeners through a little bit about, uh, what audit does? Yes.

Speaker 2:

So audits, you know, audits really confusing to some people, but it's, it's very simple and it's confusing. I say it's confusing because it's not like a, it's not like any other tool. We kind of invented a category. We're a sales presentation system where sales focused. We, we, uh, we create a simple presentation that sells and I tell people that to basically our system turns technical data into closed business. Simple as I can explain it.

Speaker 1:

No, that's great. So let's get into it though. I mean, you're doing a sales presentation. I mean, that's something that you and I both see, uh, in our space where we're at right now. Um, let's go. So through some of the things. So I was reading like a week ago, you had a post that I actually think was a really good one. Then I want to hear some more thoughts around this. You know, some MSP spent way too much time trying to prove to the prospect that they know their stuff, but they've already believe you instead spend your time helping them understand and see the value. We'd love to hear more in, in on why you posted that in kind of some of your thoughts around that. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you know, it's not just MSPs it's anybody in that selling has this. I think MSPs have, uh, we like, we like to refer to it as the curse of knowledge. You know, if you're ever read the book made to stick, I think that was the first place I read about that word or that sent that phrase curse of knowledge, which is we all who are selling something are cursed with more knowledge than, than our prospect has. And that's natural when you're selling. That's why people come to a salesperson and the more high value your thing is, the more complex it is. The more layers there are to it. The wider that gap is, and the more need there is for a person who is a sales person or an expert to, to help guide people through the sales process. So naturally as a professional, you have are always going to have more knowledge than somebody else. And in any niche I've ever been in, I mean, I was a martial arts school owner. I sold vacuum cleaners door to door. I sold a retail furniture. I've sold all sorts of things. And I always knew more about my product than the person there. Now my job is to make sure I'm speaking to them in their language and they wouldn't the thing that, and the reason for that post was because I think when we're in a position where we are an expert in something, somebody has picked up the phone or taken an action to make an appointment with us. Um, I think sometimes we feel like we've got to prove our stuff and, and that forces that, that that's what forces us, I think psycho psychologically or subliminally subconsciously. That's what I was looking for to, to try and talk too much to try and prove that we're an expert because we feel like we, we just feel this natural it's naturally compelled to do it, right? Like we can't control it. So we have to actively think about it and realize that we know more than the other person. But if we talk to them with our level of knowledge, we're going to confuse them. And a confused prospect never buys nor they

Speaker 1:

Point though. I mean, I think it's, they picked up the phone or they submitted a, Hey, we want to schedule a meeting with you. And it's like, so they're already interested. They know what you do. Um, now it's really the important for them to get to know you, your staff, you know, the value, you know, they, they understand Amanda service provider for the most part. Um, but you know, now it's that time for you to go in and really demonstrate how, what makes you different? Um, and everyone always tries to go in with products and like, Oh, we do this. And it's like, they already expect you to do security. They already expect you to backup their data. Like those are the common things now it's, what's your SLA like, well, how do you, what kind of staff do you have? You know, lots of things that you can do to differentiate and demonstrate value.

Speaker 2:

And there's a couple of things Dan, with, with talking over somebody's head, right? Like you can, number one, if you confuse them, they're going to, we, we have to, as, as a buyer, you have to put things in context. We have to put things in context and get a point of reference and try and compare. We're always comparing to things. And if you don't understand what the seller is talking about, you make your own comparisons, you make your own point of references and it confuses a process. So what we tend to do is focus on the thing that we do understand, which is price. And that's the last thing you want people to start comparing you to. So that's one thing that happens. But the other thing that happens is you get to a point where if you are talking over somebody's head, um, you are, you may be insulting their intelligence a little bit, you know, you're, you're, you're, you kind of come off like, uh, you can come off pompous, right. And that's bad for the sale. It's not, nobody's going to buy from somebody who they think is a smarty pants. Like,

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I think people, I knew this when I was an MSP, when you'd go out, if you go out and you're real with somebody and you explain it in plain English, you know, just, Hey, this is what it means. You know, I'm not going to go through and read DNS, gateway servers, things like that. You know, I'm a, I like to bring things in and talk real with you. And I think that's important. And I, I know that's, uh, uh, something that audit helps you do. Um, you know, I've seen you guys at a lot of shows recently, I saw Frank and it was at Glu acts and did a presentation on it and stuff like that. But that's important. Like, you know, you guys take complicated things, you know, that, uh, in the world of doing it and bringing it into really easy to understand, um, and digestible chunks that people can go out and take action on it, uh, because they feel that they're informed. And I think that's, that's a, that's a really cool way versus going in and being like, well, we got to redo your DNS gateways. We got to go put this firewall in and do this routing and paying no, like you got to go in and just tell them straight up, we can fix your network connection so your employees can work and, you know, like bringing it to them and then something that they understand,

Speaker 2:

Right. And sometimes the, the customer, you know, they're not the technical person. Right. So they don't know what they don't know. They, they know that there's something wrong or they can't grow, or, you know, there's some reason they called you in, right. But that may not be the reason they buy the stuff they buy. And it's your job as an MSP to understand what their issues are and dig deeper than just the technical, you know, anybody can just, anybody can prescribe technical solutions, right. But can you connect the dots between the technology, their business, where they want to grow in the future? What kind of things are keeping them up at night? And if you don't, you, you know, the number one thing I always tell people in sales, you just got to ask good questions and listen really, really, really good. Um, because they'll tell you what their issues are and you'll uncover things that they didn't know that they needed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's crazy. And it's like, we always, I think we as MSPs, I think, like you said, though, it's almost every industry. I think it's our nature to try to make things more complicated than what it really should be.

Speaker 2:

Sure. You know, where I learned this stuff, my best lesson is back when I did the martial arts school was, I was, you know, I was in my early twenties and I got, I was in college at the time and I had just gotten my, my black belt and my instructor was like, you can start teaching, but I don't know how to teach. So, you know, what do you do? What do I do when I'm up there in front of a bunch of kids is, is I'm trying to show them what to do. Right. So I'm showing them, I'm demonstrating to them. And I got to make sure I look good. So I'm doing my kick society. I can and fast and everything. And, and they, then I look at them. I go, okay, now you do it. And they like, look at me like, I'm crazy. They can't quite understand what's going on. So I discovered that the simpler, I can make it the better that they're going to learn. And it was a, it was a kind of a weird paradigm shift. And I'll never forget this. I was teaching a bunch of six year old kids and I'm showing them how to, I'm basically showing them how to do their first stance. You got to put your right foot forward like this. Right. And when I did it, they put their left foot forward. I'm like, no, your right foot. And they knew right from left, I said, put up your right hand. And they go, they put up the right hand, put up your left hand, they put up their left hand. What's, something's really off something's missing. And so what I, what I did is I go, okay, put this foot forward. And I just stepped backwards with my left foot. And they put their right foot forward. I was like, Whoa, that, that moment clicked for me. I'm like, okay, if I demonstrate it the way they are going to see it in their mind and the way it's going to work in that younger mind that mind, that's not an adult that doesn't have the same motor skills as me, that doesn't have the same expertise that I have. I'm now putting it in their language. And I realized how silly, how simple that was just, yeah, I'll put my left foot left foot back there. They're going. I don't even have to say anything. I just go do this. And they, and they do it lift this hand up and they lift up their right hand when they do my load. Um, I'm doing this, I know we're not on video, but, um, I'm lifting up my left hand. They would lift up their rights. So that was a huge paradigm shift for me. And I realized after that, it changed everything with the way I not only sold, but the way I communicated to anybody in trying to teach. And, and to me, that's, there's a connection between selling and teaching in that way, as we, we have to approach it that way, we're, we're a guy, you know, we're not there to educate them on, on how to be a, um, technician. We're there to guide them to where they need to go.

Speaker 1:

No, I think that's really good advice. You know, talking about let's go into, you know, one of the things I hear all the time is prospecting. You know, how do I go out and schedule more appointments? How do I get in front of people? Um, I know you're, you're always, you know, posting on things. You guys are educating on things as well, uh, from your, you know, from your side and where you guys are sitting in hearing from other MSPs, you know, what advice do you have people for right now that if they're out there prospecting, because I know that's something we get asked all the time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the basic thing is, is just do something don't, don't like, overthink it. Like, just go talk to people. If you, if you don't have anything in the pipeline, you just need to start talking to people. If you've got stuff in the pipeline, cool. Step it up and, and, and do more. And sometimes it's just as easy as just calling somebody up and going, Hey, I'm Mike from, from Mike's it service. I'm just calling to say hi and get to know you as if, as a business in the community. Um, and just see where a conversation goes. Can we get a cup of coffee? Can we, can we, you know, can we have a meeting? I just, you know, I'd like to, I like to network with people. I mean, it doesn't have to be a salesy thing. And I think people get caught up in the, what do I do thing and, and, you know, going out and hard selling people, it can be as simple as just, Hey, you know, like, like I just want to get to know you and see if we can help each other's businesses and see where the relationship goes. And, you know, activity always breeds results. It doesn't have to be this process or that process. I mean, you know, we have, I've seen lots of different things and we can dive into techniques, but I do think that people overthink it. And sometimes it's as simple as picking up the phone and calling people.

Speaker 1:

Cool. Yeah. I liked that. I mean, we see it a lot with like LinkedIn and all that. You tell everyone to go relationship, don't go hard, sell the first, second someone makes a connection. Don't go and just send them an email or send them the InMail and say, I can save you thousands of dollars. You know, it's like their posts comment on their things. And then, you know, build that relationship. And then, like you said, go have a cup of coffee, do a virtual meeting, you know, whatever it is, that's important to you, but build a relationship. Don't go in for the hard sell right off of the first introduction.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I mean, that's what I did when I, you know, I had a marketing agency before I did this and nobody wants to talk to a marketing agency. Like, that's, that is the hardest appointment to get, Hey, can I come in? And I know I'm the 8000000th person to either email you or call you today about your SEO, but can I, can I get an appointment too? Nobody wants to talk to us. So it's, it's like, Hey, I'm Mike, you know, I'm a business in the area. And I like getting to know the businesses, not trying to sell you anything. I was wondering if I could buy a cup of coffee or chat with you for a few minutes and that's conversation, number one. And, you know, once you get that call, you're in front of somebody, there's something that clicks. I mean, we're all human beings and you know, you get to know somebody and then you exercise those, those sales tools, which is go and ask them about them and listen to them. And after somebody talks to you, to you and they're talking right, and you're listening, there's just something that happens. We just normally naturally want to, we feel a compelling like of that person, because we felt listened to. I mean, it's a human thing, right? And it's now, they've now they're friends with you. They feel like they're friends with you and they want to help you. Um, you know, I used to always go in with the attitude of, let me see if I can refer some business to them, or they can refer some business with me to me. I treated it. Like, I'm just going to get together with somebody, whether it's cold or, you know, Carta had, or a former client, or just, you know, I saw you opened your business last week. I'd look to learn more about it and see if I can refer business. And I got, I got tons of business from it all the time, just from that. And it was very soft, selfish. Like I, I wasn't going in with any agenda. I was going in to talk to people and I got referrals. I got asked to speak at different places. I got asked to join clubs and you know, all of a sudden it's like, everybody in the area knows you because you're just out there everywhere. And it doesn't have to be a specific tactic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, you said it, you have to just do something. I mean, you got to go out there. I can tell you when, you know, back when I was doing the MSP side of things, it was important to be out there doing community events. You're out there doing BNIs, rotaries. Um, it was a good and fun thing, and it was rewarding as well, just, you know, because you're helping out the community and getting to know other business professionals and you got to learn about them and you realize some of the synergies and it made it common for you to, to exchange business or pass business cards because people are always saying, Hey, who do you know? You know, and then you're able to say, Hey, go talk to this person, tell him I sent you, they're a great group, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I mean, next thing you know, you, you don't think you're marketing, but you are. And your next thing, you know, you're prospecting because, you know, got people calling you or you're asking, you know, telling people, look, I'm looking for people that are looking for managed services, anybody that has an it need, you know, think of me. And like next thing, you know, you've got 50 people out talking to people and passing your card. Uh, so I liked that because I saw one of your posts. I I'm sorry I stocked your, your LinkedIn. Um, just like we do, but I actually think you had a really good thing. And I, I hear this all the time because all right, we talked about sales, you know, going out and having, you know, doing the sales calls and not over speaking people and all that prospecting, how you just gotta be out there doing something, you know, that's really important. Um, and then, you know, one of the things I was reading is is what is one of the things that your biggest sales challenges and you had getting appointments, building rapport, presenting, and closing. Um, and the highest one honestly, was the closing. Um, you know, people weren't closing the sale. And I think it goes back to what we were just talking about and you know, how you can spend more time, you know, demonstrating the value. But I don't under, I mean, are you seeing this pretty common too? Cause I would agree. Closing is probably one of the number one that people struggle with is they go out and they present and then they go back and they're like, Oh, the product isn't working or something's wrong because I don't close any appointments. And I feel like that's the point now when we're at is people are calling and the phones are ringing and MSPs are going out, but we're just not closing deals.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Um, I S I mean, that's obviously why people use our system, right? It's a, but it's whether you use something like audit or you do it yourself, you just have to have a good planned presentation. Right. And you have to walk people through it. You know, not a typical MSP presentation with, or without audit is going to be go out and do a technical assessment. You know, you're gathering the info and that's your opportunity to listen really carefully. And then when you go back, you have a plan presentation of showing them that you've listened to them, right. And that you understand their needs and that you understand their pains and their problems and what they want to solve and you show them the solution. Right. So you're typically basically showing them, here's where you are today. Here's where we're going to take you tomorrow. And then here's how much it's going to cost and then shut up. And you know, that it should be okay, let's, let's do this. Or wow. That price is more than I expected, or, you know, some kind of closing question, but, um, closing is, is hard, man. It's, you know, asking for money is a hard thing. So the more you put into planning how your presentation is going to flow, I think the easier it gets, because you'll cover all of those things and there's some art to it, right? Like you want to make sure you are an science, right? Like I have a, I'll give you a book recommendation, which is like the greatest book on closing. It's called the perfect close. I usually have it near me. It's by a guy named James Muir. Awesome. And it's just really simple, the way he frames things, he asks, it's a two question thing and you can actually skip to that part of the book. He tells you in the beginning, you can skip down to like chapter nine or something where it goes over it. And it's basically like, based on, and I, I can't, I don't have it in front of me, so I'm going to wreck it. But it's basically asking a question that they're going to either say yes or no to, which is basically framing, like do, based on what we have here. Is there anything else that we need to, to cover, to go, to move to the next thing? And I'm not talking necessarily about closing the sale. I'm talking about closing along the way, because closing happens all the, all the, all as you go through that presentation, right? Like when you're, it's, you're closing them to the next thing. And sometimes it's just by showing them the page and saying, is there anything on here that's confusing to you or any questions you have on this page before we go on to the next? No. Cool. That means they understand that. And that there's no problems there. We can move on to the next thing. So you're kind of testing along the way, but that, that book is really a great book for people who were looking for a simple way to insert this two question process into their sales presentations. Very helpful.

Speaker 1:

No, and I think you said something earlier, too, um, you know what, I'm going to read the book cause I've never read that book. So I think it's a great one and I always loved book recommendations, but you talked about, um, you know, you listened to them and I think when you come back with a proposal or when you're proposing something, you need to show that you've listened to their pain points. Um, you know, when you listen to their business, how they operate, asking questions, the right questions to them in, they, they know when you come back in that presentation, if you listen to them, it's like an interview. It's a, it's an interview on both sides. You're interviewing the customer and they're interviewing you. And when you come back with your proposal, it's how well did you listen in the interview? Uh, so I think that's a really cool thing. And that's another reason, uh, that I thought, you know, you were great to come on this call because, uh, I know audit does a lot of those things, but you're also in that mindset just from the sales side and where you come from. So I thought that's a great advice.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I mean, it's always, uh, always great coming on and talking to you, Dan, uh, you know, you do great stuff. What you guys are doing over there at Casa. I watch you to, I know you said you were watching my LinkedIn. I always watch your content. It's fantastic. It's phenomenal. And you guys have a great product there. So I think using, using what you guys have too, is that's the big secret, like it's activity, right? Like, and you guys provide all that kind of activity for people to, to, to do things. You know, you provide social media stuff. I mean, that's, that's really important. And, uh, activity breeds results, man. Just do stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we're trying, I mean, this industry is, I mean, MSPs had our meeting today with channel success managers and everybody is saying, you know, MSPs are doing events again, they're, they're doing in-person virtual events all over the board, but we're seeing people schedule golf outings for seeing people schedule trade shows, um, you know, networking chamber events. Um, so, you know, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on is because I think, you know, we're going to be having to get some rust off, uh, you know, for some of those people that were in the virtual space for awhile, uh, potentially, or they still might be in the virtual space and this is still really important. Um, but there's also a lot of us that are going to have to start going back out and, uh, starting to get back into customer facing meetings. And, uh, it's really important that we don't lose sight of, you know, understanding what the customer is saying and being able to demonstrate the value. So that's why I wanted to have you on, because I thought those were some great, you know, great tips, uh, to give our listeners. So why don't you give us a couple of things? One, I know you talked about audit a little bit, but if someone wants to find out more, how can they do so like

Speaker 2:

Yeah, real simple, just go to audit for it. It's AAU audit the word audit and for it, uh, most people refer to us as audit it or audit for it because of the URL. There you go. Yeah. And we, by the way, we did, I interviewed James Muir on the show. I was so like, I love sales psychology. I love behavioral economics. I study that stuff. And James was as a student of that kind of stuff. And we geeked out on the interview probably too much. You know, I think most people it's way too much stuff. Like talk about the curse of knowledge. Me and him kind of took it to too heady. But if you like that kind of stuff, you're gonna love that interview. Uh, but if you go to audit for it.com, you can download a sample of the, of the report that we redo, like on the bottom of our pages. I think on the very bottom of the webpage is as saying, you can, you can basically enter your name and email and you'll get sent a sample report from your old MSP. We still use that.

Speaker 1:

That's great. Yeah. So let's take a look at, you know, definitely go and take a look at that and, uh, you know, go through it. But what final thought would you want to give us, uh, today? Because I know I ask every guest final thoughts, you know, go download the report and then take this tip of knowledge away. What would that be for our listeners?

Speaker 2:

So I'm working on a presentation that I'm doing for a webinar coming up and going through some of the behavioral economic stuff. So I'm going to give like a quick tip about anchoring. If you don't know what anchoring is for people who don't understand that it's creating a point of reference for your client. And I think it's one of them or prospect. I think it's one of the most important things you can do to get past price, objections, or time objections. And essentially what we I'll give you a really quick example of how I used it. I came about it when I owned my martial arts school, I was selling lessons to kids. A lot of kids and mom was the one who was buying it. Mom would bring her six year old child to our martial arts school. The child would be really excited. The mom would be excited, but then I would say it's a year to sign up for a year. And the mom would look at me like you are insane asking. My kid wanted to be, you know, on the way over, he wanted to be a baseball player. Now he wants to be a martial artist. We just came here because his friend does it. I'm not going to sign my kid who can't sit still for five minutes up for a year of martial arts who changes his mind. So what I did is I put the belts up on the wall and I, at the end of my presentation, I changed it to explain your son's going to, or daughter's going to test for their white belt today. That's what they're going to get today. Then they're going to test for their yellow belt in three months. So now I'm creating a little bit of an anchor, right point of reference, three months to get to that yellow belt. Then after their first year, get all the way to that blue belt or that green belt there. And then at the end of their second year, they'll get to that red got there. And at the end of the third year, that's when they'll get black belt. And now mom's thinking this guy's going to make me sign up for three years. And then I would say, we only sign you up for one year at a time. So it's just, you know, we, we, we take one year, you know, don't worry about the black belt just now we're just gonna sign you up, sign up for a year. And my conversion rate went to 90 something percent. It was insane because if you don't create a point of reference for somebody, they will anchor a different point of reference. And what's it going to be? It's going to be low price, low time, whatever. So figure out a way then I know that was a long little explanation, but figure out a way to create an anchor, a price anchor. You know, if, if with audit, we, we score things. So if you have like, you know, it's all based on red, yellow greens, right? Like, and you can put your presentations together like this. You basically, if you have half of what you should have, you scored a 50. And if you're spending$2,000 a month to get to a 50, what would it cost under normal circumstances to get to a hundred? It would cost you probably double. Right? Right. That's what we expect. So you can create an anchor by saying, listen, you're spending two grand a month. Now you, you got about half what you need here. I don't know what your it provider would charge, but they could charge as much as double to get there. We're only going to charge you 3000 a month. Now you've created that price anchor and even the anchoring works so well that even if you tell somebody, I made this number up, they will still use that as a subconscious point of reference. It's people just need that. So my long-winded tip for you then

Speaker 1:

I think it's a great one. And I think I liked the way you talked about that being the anchor. And I would hope that all of our MSPs on here today take that and create their anchor, uh, for their MSP. So Mike, it's always great hope to have you back here on the show again soon. Um, talking about more sales and marketing and, uh, what's going on in the space. So again, thanks for coming on today.

Speaker 2:

Anytime Dan is an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

That's it. Everyone. Thanks for listening to the connecting it podcast. Find us in the iTunes store, give us five stars. And remember if there's things you want to hear in the channel and want us to talk about this is an open show. Uh, we'd love to talk about what things that you're going to help impact you and help you grow your MSP. So until next time everyone have a great day.