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Hybrid workplaces
Hybrid and remote working has transformed the workplace. With companies still working to cultivate the optimum blend of technology enabled, and in-person collaboration that is crucial to success.
In this episode of Ibec WorkTalks, Fiona Higgins, Head of Knowledge Centre in Ibec, and Dr. Tatiana Andreeva from Maynooth University explore the hidden dynamics of hybrid work. Drawing on Tatiana’s latest research on hybrid workplaces, they discuss the realities of knowledge sharing in distributed teams, the unintended consequences of return-to-office mandates, experiences of line managers and how organisations can foster a more equitable and high-performing hybrid workforce.
Further information:
The Evolving Role of Line Managers in Hybrid Work: Challenges, Experiences, and Solutions
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Hybrid and remote working has transformed the workplace. With companies still working to cultivate the optimum blend of technology-enabled and in-person collaboration that is crucial to success. In this episode of IBEC Work Talks, Fiona Higgins, head of Knowledge Centre in IBEC, and Dr. Tatiana Andreva from Manuth University explore the hidden dynamics of hybrid work. Drawing on Tatiana's latest research on hybrid workplaces, they discuss the realities of knowledge sharing in distributed teams, the unintended consequences of return to office mandates, experiences of line managers, and how organizations can foster a more equitable and high-performing hybrid workplace.
SPEAKER_03:Hello, my name is Fiona Higgins and I'm head of IBEX Knowledge Centre, and I'm delighted to be joined today to talk about hybrid working with Dr. Tatiana Andreva. Good afternoon, Tatiana. Hello, and thank you very much for having me. Not at all. So hybrid working, it's a model of work that combines both remote work with in-office presence. It offers obviously employees greater flexibility while maintaining collaboration and connectivity. And we know that Ireland's at the forefront in terms of the adoption of hybrid work, and that's particularly evident in sectors, as you know, Tatiana, in technology, finance, and professional services. And it's estimated that up to 35% or north of the Irish workforce can work in this manner. Government has recognised obviously the shift in work patterns, introducing legislation, which is in the form of a right to request remote working under the work-life balance and miscellaneous provisions act and the accompanying code of practice for employers and employees on the right to request remote working. And in addition, also we have another code of practice from the WRC on the right to disconnect. And that was also introduced to give guidance to both employers and employees on good practice and compliance with legislation on working time. Just before we go into our questions, IBEC's research into this area as late as last year highlighted that hybrid working was still a key priority for attracting and retaining talent. So, Tatiana, in a moment we are going to discuss your recent research and delve into some of the other HR implications for HR practitioners of hybrid working. But given your extensive knowledge of the subject area, how would you describe where we are today compared to the early days of the shift to this new work model?
SPEAKER_02:Well, two points come to mind, and one where I see a big change, and another one where I think nothing has changed actually. So the first one is today we see such a variety of approaches to managing employee work location that hybrid as a word actually I think became a non-informative label, or sometimes it's even misleading because when you say hybrid, it can mean so many things. For example, companies call hybrid when they allow employees to work remotely one day a week, and other companies call it hybrid when they require employees to come to office once a month. So, from this perspective, when you're reading a hybrid or remote in a job ad, it can mean so many things. So I would say, you know, people tell us that now hybrid is a new normal.
SPEAKER_01:What I think is really new normal is complete ambiguity and what hybrid means when you read somebody is doing this.
SPEAKER_03:And do you think we have to then just it that's such a broad uh r response to kind of one word or you know, hybrid? Um, do we need to maybe categorize it or redefine it then, Tatiana? Do you think?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I do think when companies talk that they have hybrid and remote policies, they need to be much more specific than that. And particularly in the job ads, very often I hear from candidates that they are being uh disillusioned or disappointed when the job reads hybrid or remote, but there in reality it's very small opportunity to change. I think yeah. But I wanted to return to the second point when you said uh, you know, where we are now, and one thing that I think didn't change uh in the recent years is I think despite all the new evidence that has been accumulated on the topic, there is still a very heated debate on what works and whether hybrid or remote works. And just to give you an example, um, in the we had recently uh a streak of very good weather for a few weeks in our region. Uh, and I've seen the uh newspaper titles of the articles saying that you know what, people who work remotely in this weather, they are actually not working.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so the summer months then it's suggesting uh it it slows down in Ireland, or is that international research?
SPEAKER_02:Uh well, this is not supported by any research. This is newspapers kind of tapping, yeah, it's media tapping on if on fears uh probably of some managers. And but to me, this illustrates that we still haven't passed this prejudice against against remote work.
SPEAKER_03:That hybrid workers or people with some level of flexibility are somehow um not working or slacking off, as it were. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:And they this is where I think unfortunately things haven't changed.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. So look, um then maybe moving on to uh what does work for from the employer's perspective and employees. Um why, first of all, do employers like us, do you think? What's the upside for an employer, uh Tatiana?
SPEAKER_02:What I regularly hear from employers is that uh flexibility gives them access to a much broader and much more diverse talent pool because they are not limited anymore by the commuting radius from the premises. And also a lot of candidates who really value flexibility start being attracted to the company.
SPEAKER_03:And um, from the employees' perspective, then what do they like about it, do you think?
SPEAKER_02:Uh based on the research that has been carried, not only by me, but internationally, we know quite a lot about it. Uh, there are basically two key points. One, employees really value flexibility that allows them to either uh achieve a better work-life balance or you know uh manage other caring responsibilities that they have. And another important factor is savings, both in terms of the computing time and in terms of the cost of accommodation. And particularly in Ireland, this is a very, very big issue.
SPEAKER_03:And another thing that I noticed about your research is um there is normally a tendency when we're going back to probably general media, there's a focus on employee needs and wants in relation to hybrid working, but your research is more employer focused. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what your motivation to do it from the employer's perspective was? Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:That is very well spotted, Fiona. And indeed, um, I have two reasons while focusing quite a lot on employer perspective. First, you know, I think all voices in the conversation need to be heard. And while employees' perspective is very important, I wanted to understand what is the employer perspective, what is the challenges, how do they see the situation from their perspective. But the second reason is that I believe that ultimately to make all of these employee benefits to materialize or this employee experiences to really happen in a positive way, it all depends on how organizations manage the process and how they manage the hybrid work policies. Therefore, I wanted to understand the organizational perspective so that we can advise companies how to manage this process better.
SPEAKER_03:And when you have looked at it through the lens of uh the employer, what what stands out as some of the current challenges that employers are facing, Tatiana?
SPEAKER_02:So one of the big challenges that has been a lot, especially in discussion in the last month, uh, with a lot of changes um uh happening in the US, is around the return to office mandates. And there are two issues around this. Uh, and for some companies they face only one, and for others they have to manage both. One is the employees' resistance, because after having worked very successfully during the pandemic remotely, a lot of employees genuinely do not understand why they have to return to the office if things worked very well during the pandemic. Uh, and many of them also have reorganized their lives around this new approach. So they don't really get why this is needed. But on top of this, for a lot of Irish companies I've spoken to who are subsidiaries of multinationals that are headquartered in the US, they have an additional challenge because a lot of uh US headquarters have gone to where fully returned to the office, uh, while a lot of local Irish uh managers actually think that the things work how they are right now. So many find this managing the headquarter relationships difficult. And when headquarters implement or try to enforce the policies that do not work, I on the one hand do not make sense in the Irish context, and on the other hand, actually with a different label or is even not feasible to implement.
SPEAKER_03:And that's really interesting that you say that, because you know, I I think there's not a week, probably, uh, in the media that um some angle or some element of hybrid working doesn't come up, and it's not just exclusive even to the US. We've seen a couple of um you know commentary in the media uh recently uh in relation to whether hybrid working is is working from the employer's perspective, but equally um when you know, just moving on to the whole aspect of office mandates, do they really work? What does your research tell us about the whole area of compelling people to either return fully to the office?
SPEAKER_02:Well, um the evidence in this area is emerging right now, uh, but I have already seen some studies uh to suggest that actually return to office does not work. But for me, um fundamentally the question is why you're returning people to the office? What is a real problem that you would like to solve? And uh what I find it very problematic in all of these media announcements that uh we hear, that very often uh return to the office is treated as a thing in itself. While actually it's just a solution to a problem or you know, uh a means to a particular end to reach the goal. But when the problem is not clear and the goal is not clear, then you know the whole conversation, do you need to return to the office or not, is meaningless because it's a solution, but how can we know it works if we are not understanding what the problem we are trying to solve?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's a very good observation. And even going back to you know, some of the earlier uh US mandates, we saw a lot of problems, particularly with federal workers being compelled to return back to the office. And uh, we saw that there wasn't even enough office space or facilities for them when they arrived in the office to actually conduct any meaningful work. Um, just going back to some of the other areas of your research, and you've uncovered some very interesting um aspects in relation to the squeeze middle. And in this one, in this case, I talk about the line managers, you know, that buffer between leaders and employees and the work that they have to do to ensure that you know that a connection is maintained and hybrid is working for the organization. Would you like to maybe outline that a little bit more?
SPEAKER_02:Um, yes, thank you very much for asking. We actually just finalized uh a public report um on our study on line managers' experiences and challenges with hybrid work with my colleagues, uh Professor Georgia Trollan from Spain and Jim Copeland from Minut. And uh our findings suggest that pre-pandemic, line managers indeed played quite a key role in implementation of hybrid work policies, and they frequently were a key gatekeeper who were actually deciding whether Nobley can avail of some type of remote work arrangement. But what we see is that after the pandemic, this has dramatically changed, and line managers' role has significantly diminished. First, they were not really involved in the design of the practices, and we heard a lot of stories that there was just an email from CEO that everybody received, and nobody knew that it was coming like up to the level like this. And second, most of the line managers in our study have little discretion to actually decide of what will work best for their teams. So all of the decisions that they used to have previously are taken up much higher in the hierarchy. And finally, what I found very surprising is that although the line managers we interviewed are expected to enforce the work location policies, they typically lack access to the data that they need to monitor attendance and intervene in a timely manner. That would be meaningful intervention.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, that's a that's a lot of pressure then on online managers. Um so what you're suggesting is little autonomy and little data, but it really mandated or uh uh requested to carry out certain decisions on behalf of, as you say, the hierarchy or uh leaders and organizations. What would you recommend where companies might support line managers to be better able to manage situations like this, Tatiana?
SPEAKER_02:I have to say you touch a very sore support here. Okay because most of the line managers we interviewed reported that they receive zero support from the organization. And in my previous uh research, I did speak to senior leaders and HR leaders. And my understanding is that this lack of support sometimes comes from the lack of awareness, they don't really realize what support is needed, but very often they also genuinely don't know how to support line managers. So, with this report that I mentioned to you, my aim is to bring more awareness of what line managers are struggling with, and therefore, you know, building on this to help organizations to support them better. For example, um one of their very surprising uh elements for me is that the policies are very much centralized. Line managers have very little to say about uh this, and one of the aspects is encore days. Because if we want to encourage collaboration, it makes sense that there are some Encore days where teams can touch base.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, Anchor Days for uh employers who might not know it, it's it's the agreed one day in which everybody or teams agree that that's their day that they're all going to spend in the office together.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And um what I find interesting is the companies seem to go into two different directions, and neither is very fruitful. One is on the policy level, they don't even talk about NCODAs, so then it is left to the teams to decide. Uh, but it really then depends on the managers, are managers um experienced enough to realize that maybe some NCO days would be beneficial. And some other companies go into the direction that they talk about NCODAs, but then they fix them, mandating them from the very top, saying it's every Tuesday for everyone. And then the system becomes too rigid and it doesn't necessarily work for all of the teams.
SPEAKER_03:And because there may not be enough room in the office either.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly, exactly. So my recommendation, for example, in this regard is to introduce, do talk about ANCO days in your policy, but do talk about them as a recommendation rather than you know a strict mandate every Tuesday, and allow teams and line managers to work out what when it would be, you know, with what frequency and at what time the ANCO days would make sense for each of the team.
SPEAKER_03:And handing back the autonomy to the line managers that existed pre-pandemic, probably, in terms of that level of decision making. Thanks, Tatiana, for that. Just moving on then to the whole area of knowledge sharing and collaboration. One of your areas of expertise is that whole area of knowledge sharing. Why is this such a big challenge in hybrid work?
SPEAKER_02:Maybe I start with a general question about what I think is potentially challenging with hybrid work and then come to knowledge sharing. Okay. And I think one is one of the myths that I hear regularly from different respondents in my studies is that there is an assumption that after we have managed through the pandemic, which was, you know, much worse, very stressful, and everybody was fully remote, not everybody, but who were able to be fully remote were fully remote. And people think that after this experience, hybrid is easy, peasy, you know, it's kind of you don't need really to think about it. And I think it's a fundamental misconception because when everybody was remote, from a manager perspective, everybody was in the same boat, so you need to manage every single member of your team in the same way, and whatever tools you introduce, they would work for everyone in the same way. What happens in reality when the team's a hybrid is that there is a greater diversity in a team. Even let's say if your policy says please come to the office two days a week, it most likely will be that some of your team members will come often because it works for them. You know, they live nearby or for the they don't have a good home office space, so they will come frequently. And it is very likely that there will be people on the other hand, you know, with some exceptional situation that they cannot come that regularly. So they're gonna be always a variation um of the face-to-face contact you as a leader have with your team and also the team members have with each other. And this leads to a lot of different effects, including knowledge sharing, because it is means that it's more likely that you know this informal knowledge sharing, so-called watercooler conversations, they are more likely to happen between your team members who come more regularly to the office, and your team members who come less regularly are likely to be excluded if you leave the things flow naturally.
SPEAKER_03:So they're privy to the water cooler conversations and privy to more information. Um, that's that tacit knowledge, and you know, if it's not formally communicated, then uh others may lose out if they're not there.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:I think we call that proximity bias, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And I do think what is really important is when we say that you know this problem exists, it doesn't mean that the solution to this problem is to bring everyone to the office and make sure that everybody, you know, has the same work arrangement. No, the solution is being aware of these potential discrepancies and these potential variations to think how can I, as a manager, make sure that all employees are involved, no matter what their work location on a particular week is, and how you would redesign your meetings, for example, or you know how you make sure that you send information across multiple communication channels to make sure that people really are engaged with each other.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Moving on, um, that that that was really great, um, Tatiana. So moving on into the whole area of um inclusivity and gender equality, it it did arise as a particular issue, um, particularly in relation to uh women and the impact that hybrid and remote working had on uh female participants, but also on the upside, we see that it you know it does promote, as you said earlier on, um, more inclusivity and a diverse um opportunity for a more diverse workforce to participate. Um but how can we ensure that organizations continue to be, you know, to make sure that the hybrid work is fair to everybody, that everybody has that same level of access? And what did your research tell us in relation to that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, what we know, and you alluded to this, what we know from research are that remote and hybrid working, it's probably not surprisingly, has is both advantages and disadvantages for um uh diversity and inclusion. The advantages are that there are more people who can avail of different job opportunities, but the disadvantages are that, for example, there is much more easier to be ignored or omitted from important conversations when you're working remotely. And from this perspective, if we are really to capitalize on this opportunity, it's not only enough to hire diverse uh talent, it's important to make sure that they are included after they've been hired. And on this, I actually have big concerns because a lot of leaders that I interviewed, the top managers, they were very happy to say that, you know, since they have introduced hybrid work policies, they have hired more women or they have hired more people with disabilities. So they I did hear stories that, you know, the demographics of the work uh force became more diverse. But what I didn't hear is what companies are doing to make sure that these people are supported once they are hired. And I think it is it is potentially leading us into the dangerous area where you know we are having a more diverse workforce, but we are not actually guaranteeing that they will be included properly.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so we're attracting uh the the the right diverse workforce, as you say, but it's uh retention is a concern um for you and participation on an ongoing basis.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And for example, this is something that we have alluded at the very beginning of the conversation about this um stigma around remote working in general. So we do have quite a lot of solid evidence to suggest that pre-pandemic, people who were availing of different flexible work opportunities were experiencing what was called flexibility stigma, is that the belief that it limits the career opportunities, the promotion opportunities, or you know, the the belief that they are not as committed and engaged workers as the people who are in the office. And what was particularly problematic at the time that this was very gendered because uh the the thinking was that people avail it is more f it was before the pandemic that it was women who predominantly availed of different free uh flexible work opportunities because they needed to balance work with different caring responsibilities. And the thinking was that if a woman requests remote work, they do that because in peril to working, they do, let's say, child care. While it wasn't the same for men, and the idea was that if men requests remote work, that they will be, you know, dedicated working in the home office. So one of my research projects that I'm currently working on is to see, you know, after the pandemic, when remote and hybrid work became such much more common, do we still see a gendered aspect to it? Does the stigma still apply? I don't have an answer yet whether it's still gendered, but what I clearly can already see from my data is that this stigma still remains. And there are still managers who think that if you work remotely, you're not committed enough.
SPEAKER_03:Tatiana, this has been a fascinating subject, and thank you for joining me today to discuss it and share the preliminary findings of your research. Just in terms of uh some final remarks and findings uh for employer members, what's one piece of advice you'd give to organizations who are looking to refine their hybrid strategy?
SPEAKER_02:I would say, first of all, forget at all about the question of work location policy, because I think it's not the point where it doesn't matter. It doesn't, yeah, it's not where to start with. I would suggest instead focus first on what is a real issue that you need to solve in your company and back it up with evidence. For example, your internal data. If you do you really see systematic problems with collaboration or with employee turnover or with a lack of innovation? And once you have the problem clear, then ideate a range of solutions and remember that these solutions may not necessarily lie in the space of work location again. And only after that you have a problem clear, you have a range of solutions, then return to your hybrid work policy and design it in a way that will support uh the solutions that you have ideated.
SPEAKER_03:That's really helpful. Um, Tashiana, if employers were interested in finding out more about your research, would you just let me know, or let us know rather, where is the research uh going to be released?
SPEAKER_02:It should be published on Agile Lean Ireland website because um this project was done for them, uh supported by uh Enterprise Ireland.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that concludes our podcast for today on hybrid work. I'd like to thank Dr. Tatiana Andreva for joining me uh on this fascinating subject. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
SPEAKER_00:We hope you enjoyed this episode of Work Talks. To listen to our full suite of podcasts, which include iBec Voices, iBeck Responds, and KC Connect, please visit ibec.ie slash podcasts.