Changing The Narrative, With Kate Cinnamo

Explore the Trades executive director Kate Cinnamo talks about the work the foundation is doing to change how students and parents view careers in the trades.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:09

Hi, this Jack Gesture. Welcome to another episode here of Leadership Lounge. I am here right after the holidays. I'm in Saint Paul, Minnesota in my office and across the desk from me. I have Kate cinema. How you doing Kate? Hi. Good. Thank you for having me. You Bet. You Bet. Now Kate is the executive director of the Nexstar Legacy Foundation. You've done a great job with the foundation. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. And I think your story's an interesting one. I think it's something that, uh, I think kind of represents broader society, um, especially before you came to the foundation. Is that fair? That's fair enough. So people, I know you quite well. Kate, you were working day to day with each other and uh, but people don't know you. So I'd like a little background. Tell us where you're from. I grew up in a small town called Rake Iowa. Okay. How many people in rake? About 200. 200 people. 200. And your dad was in insurance business. They own their own insurance office. Right? So you did, you, uh, uh, your father wasn't in the trades, he was a white, uh, uh, professional in Iowa in a rural, kind of a rural area of Iowa within like two or three miles to the Minnesota border. Just to give you some perspective, right? Yep. Yep. So, so you didn't grow up with the trades and, uh, I imagine your father and your mother probably had some desires for their daughter to go to school, to go to college. Right. Did you, so what was the messaging from your parents when you're young girl? So growing up it was just expected and known that college would come after high school. Right. That's, that's all the rest. There was no other, there was no plan B. No, no. There was one plan. There was one plan, which is called tankless. You are, and you, um, I, I know you, Kate, you probably enjoyed school than you even even in high school. And I did. Yeah, I bet you're a pretty good student too, or Cha. That's fair to say. Yeah. Yeah. Um, how many people in your graduating class in Rake Iowa? 46 46 K didn't have to be too good to be at the top of your class. Right. So a classic American upbringing in a small Midwestern town. Good values, you know, a good, you're Scandinavian too. Is that right? Very much so. Very much the candidate Swedish. Oh good, good. That's better. So anyway, so you off and you were, where did you go to college? I went to Luther College in Decorah, Iowa. So that is, Luther is a private, private four year liberal arts school. Very liberal arts. I mean, just kind of very right. And, and it's not an inexpensive school. Even when you went, you're not that old, but no, no, it was, the price tag was high for sure. Yeah, absolutely. To a school. Just curious, what is it today at Luther, if you have tuition room and board, it will get you about$55,000. Geez. That's incredible. It into core Iowa or Iowa. Yeah. And I know there's a lot more expensive schools in the world. Absolutely. So, but, but would you said okay, you will enjoyed school and you went to college, you enjoyed college too. I bet. Yup. Yeah. A lot of good people there. Yeah. I think you know, you're a people person. You enjoyed it. You like school or like study. You got into school. In fact you liked college so much. What did you do when you exited? It's when you graduated. So I, I wanted to stick around. I, I loved Luther everyday. I loved it for four years. And so the opportunity came up that they had a job opening in their admissions office. So I applied for that and got the job. So two months after graduation I was back into Cora. Real. So you are back actually recruiting kids to go to the school that you loved. Exactly right. Yup. So what, give me a day in the life. What did that mean? Yeah. So as an admissions counselor you were assigned a couple of regions of the Midwest regions. My regions were at southern Wisconsin. Okay. And the corner of Northwestern Iowa. Okay. All right. So that you are in northeastern Ios, you have the other corner, the other corner of Iowa. So you traveled to high schools? I did, Yep. So about half of the year I traveled and then have the opportunity to talk with students when they were on campus. Worked with guidance counselors. So that was my, me ask you a question. Can you are meeting with guidance counselors? Um, did you ever recommend the trades to anyone? No. It never, that never even entered my mind. Never, never, you know, thought like you're sitting across the table from a, a young man or a woman and one of these places. And, and did you ever think to yourself, oh, this person probably wouldn't enjoy to Cora, did you ever tell him don't apply, don't go to college? Did you ever say that? I don't, I don't know that I ever taught. Told them not to apply for college. I, I had conversations that Luther probably wasn't the right college for them, but there's another college. It wasn't like, right, go to the military or, or it become a policeman or join the trades. Nope, it was not Luther. It's maybe, how about another option? Maybe a community college for a year or two or something. Right, exactly. But that was the, that was the depth. And breadth of your recommendations. Right, right. Yeah. That was, as you look back, and I don't want you to feel too bad, but was that always in the student's best interest, what you are telling them then? That's a good question. I don't mean it like you, you were sitting there thinking Evilee you know that you didn't have their best interest in mind, but, but you were a 23, 24 year old woman giving career advice to 17, 16 year old kids and your only frame of reference was college. And that was it. That's all I knew. That's all I had grown up with. That's what all my did. That's just what I knew. I wouldn't have thought to, uh, recommend anything else. All right. I'm thinking back on it now. How does, how do you feel about that today? I think knowing what I know now, I think there's some other options that would come into play, you know, really understanding the student with whom I'm talking, their interests maybe where their aptitude lies. Cushy for you. Yeah. So this, you know, you were uh, you know, you are obviously an agent of the college. Yeah. And you know, their interest was, was putting talented people in the seats of the school. Right. Um, do you remember the guidance counselors then, the people that were actually, that weren't agents of what was their motivation? What were they telling the students back then? I think they were trying to get as many students lined up for college visits as they could. So what you felt or that was what we were told then? I would, that's, yeah. I mean that's just what we assumed. We assumed that when we were there, when we would go to a school, the guidance counselors would get students in to talk with me and ask questions. Did you sit in a, so when you were invited in by gowns, so the, your primary contact at a school was a guidance counselor. Yeah. Right. Yup. So in your southern Wisconsin, you just knew who the guidance counselor was, a Sparta high school or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You would go, hi. Hi Jill. This is here to talk to students. Who Do you got for me? Is that how it went? Yeah, exactly. Did you ever sit in a room with other colleges and have a conversation about Luther as compared to Saint Olaf as competition, other liberal arts schools, southern Minnesota. How did that work? The only other time that I would see representatives from the other colleges would be at a career fair. So if we were set up in the auditorium and a lot of it, we would kind of do a circuit together. So you would see the same people, same men or women. They're from these other schools that you were competing with? Yup. Was there with a trades in these auditoriums with you? Were they in these, I remember seeing other community colleges, especially in Wisconsin, but I don't, and they might've had a technical program like about drinking or you know, something like that or you know, something maybe, maybe a mechanical trade too, I don't know. But that would be, that would be the furthest that it would be. Right. So these students, they're sitting there pondering the next step in life. And the guidance counselor's primary vision was to see how many of these kids that could place in a college program. Yeah. Right. Yeah. The people that we're asking them for facetime for these students where people like you that we're representing colleges across the upper Midwest or wherever. Right? So you're competing with the state schools in the private schools, a crumb. Right. And that's, so this is the, the messaging, Kate couldn't have been less diverse as I think about this is I think about what the, the, the high school students were getting exposed to, at least through the, the school was all about college. Right? Right. Now what is the, um, and I don't know the stat and I didn't, we didn't prep for this call by the way. We used to do. So let's talk about this, cause I knew you had some interest here. Um, what's the graduation rate? Do you have, do you remember what, not not at Luther, but in general, just in general. I, I don't know the exact number, but I know that a lot of students right now, they're not graduating in four years. Right. You know, so you really have to plan five or six years in order to get your bachelor's. I think I've seen some number and I don't know this, I could probably Google it. You're a quick like four out of 10 don't make it through something to some number like yeah. Yeah. And then you know, in, in with, do you know, and again, I'm a date in college and I don't mean to do that, but I'm just trying to provide perspective right now. So if a kid is kind of unsure yup. Doesn't know his or her path. And that's not unusual for an 18 year old. No. Right. Maybe is even unsure if college is right, but they kind of feel obligated. Like it's the thing to do and almost feel less than if they don't do it. And then would one of your things, B one is when you're getting somebody interested in your college, did you introduce them to this idea of student aid or student loans? Did you do that to Kate? Well, I knew firsthand about student loans. I've got a few. Yeah, I definitely had a few when I graduated. Yep. Okay. Um, I do remember when we're doing our college visits at the high schools and read the career fairs that we had a brochure about financial aid that we would give all the students take home to their parents or their, um, adults in their life. Um, and that would be a further conversation that they would have with the financial aid office because everyone's situation is different, but you kind of guide them there and say who is who you need to talk to a booth or about going in debt for the school that you're not sure that you'd know what to do with that. A$55,000 zero school exactly right for you. Yup. Yup. Did you see anything wrong with this? I, I feel it, you know, not understanding. Then obviously what I know now, I don't, it's hard for me to talk to a high schooler now who's looking at college to say, Oh yeah, that's the best choice you can make. Right. You know, because we hear so much about the cost of school and the amount of student loans that, that people are taking on. Right. And the high schools, no one's talking about going to the trades and exploring that opportunity. Yeah. Right. Well that's part of your mission now, isn't it? Is it, is is this idea that that college is an option B, right? It's not the thing that you've, you, you find out about kind of after you failed college or after you've decided that that's not fun. After you've incurred 10 20$50,000 for the student debt, that's going to chase you. Right. Unless the government forgives it and I hope they don't. Right. Right. In the future. Right? Yup. Is this idea that, that the trades are a really option, a, even a college is a great choice for you. Right, exactly. Cause you know, what I've seen in this industry is we even have the wrong messaging. We say, if college isn't right for you, consider the traits. Right. Which is just as you might as well just say, you know, we're second rate. Right. Right. And we're not. No, we're not. This trade is amazing. It is. It is. Even for a non technical person, you know, the, the career opportunities, right. For personally myself, right. I'm not a technical man. Sure. Look, Ron ended up, I'm your mind. Yeah. What happened? There are houses pot. Yeah. Anything's possible. What I'm saying. Right. But, but so tell me, um, what are some of the things that the foundation's doing to, to, to change this message? And I want to say that it's no matter how, what kind of job you do, Kate have the foundation does, right. This institutionalized message is so deep and society, right. It's going to take a lot to change, but it's the way it changes, I believe is one conversation at a time. You know, you can't just put a commercial out there and it's going to change it. It's me sitting across from a young person. Right. Really having a meaningful conversation. Right. You know, me being a guidance counselor and me being a parent, me being some a contractor. Yeah. Looking to recruit people into this industry. Yup. Right. Yeah. So let's talk about, broadly speaking, what are some things that foundations do to, to equip people to have those conversations? Yeah, so

Speaker 2: 13:43

on the website, the website is explore the trades.org we have a wide variety of resources that are made for influencers. So they're made for guidance counselors, educators, parents, you know, just really quick worksheets, marketing items, so to speak, that really talks about the path of what, of the opportunities that exist within these fields. And it's just, it's easy to, it'd be perfect at a job fair career fair at high school, but just to highlight the different areas that exist, if you were going to be a plumber or an Hvac technician or an electrician, and just show that there's all these big milestones in a career that you may not know exist within your bachelor's degree, let's just say.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Right. Yeah. So we have, we have tools on the foundation site yup. That a contractor could take as an example. Yeah. If they wanted to, to get in the mix at a high school, that'd be your opportunity. Right. That'd be awesome. You're just not speaking up there yourself, but you've got some material to give them in the same way you had Luther college with little viking dude on it. Yeah. Right, exactly. Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. To, to have that, that give some substance behind your message. Right. You know, because, you know, I would think that a student is looking at this going, okay, I've got this guidance counselor from Luther and she's got the, the, the backdrop at the career fair with the big viking, and it was the Luther Vikings, is that what it was? So Luther Norris, Norris, so Judas, okay. Whatever. No worse. Couldn't be more mono culture. Yeah. Right, right. Anyway. Um, but you know, a contractor would go there and, and, and they'd have their company obviously, but they'd have some information on this industry. Yup, exactly. Right. Yeah. So, um, that's huge.

Speaker 2: 15:29

It is. And, and I think it's important that contractors can use it, use this information, and I think it's going to take a lot of us, and I think it'll, it starts at home and among peers really. I don't know that the schools will change their message anytime soon, but it's important for them to know the thriving opportunities that exist without a four year degree. You know, and I, and I, and I think that we're all kind of battling that same mindset of the trades are awesome and we need people to go there but not my child.

Speaker 1: 16:03

We're getting that a little bit. I think so. There's still some, I think so. Kay. Can I share that to the, to that point? Sure. You know, when my kids were coming out of high school into college, um, in my social stratosphere, we kind of bragged about to school at our kid was going to, sure. There was some, a little bit of snobbery amongst the parents. Sure. I don't think I did my kids any good having that. Yeah. I think if I reflect on the messaging that sent them, sure. And what it really said about me wasn't great. Sure. You know, and, uh, I think we gotta be, you gotta be careful of that listening to this is that we don't fall trap to that either. Right. Right. Cause I would be so proud of my son, right. If he want her to, to become a plumber or an air conditioning mechanic, just be thrilled. Electrician. I'd be really disappointed in him. But I'm joking. But no, I mean that would be so thrilled. Yeah. Yeah. I, I can't say 10 years ago that I thought that, and that's probably an indictment on my part. Right, right. Well, I would,

Speaker 2: 17:12

oh, for sure. And I think, and I have two little kids in elementary. Right. But yeah, we're already thinking years from now when they graduate, you know, we seen the number kind of estimated out to see what tuition will be and it gives you heartburn. Right.

Speaker 1: 17:27

[inaudible]$55,000 today for your little Tate. Yeah. Seven or whatever it is now. Yeah. It'll probably be$80,000 by the time he crosses the threshold.

Speaker 2: 17:36

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's, it's something to think about and, and I think that students just need to hear the good things that happen. I think there are souls, they're so stuck

Speaker 1: 17:49

and parents too in, well, if you're a plumber or for your in the trades, you must not be that smart. And it's unfortunate because this field is made up of intelligent people. You know what I mean? Like that's tough work. It's great work. Yeah. That's a great living. Right. Fantastic. You know, I, I see that, um, you know, we have a lot of trade families in Nexstar and I don't see that, you know, I think some really well balanced families realize that their son becoming a, an installer is a great thing. Oh, right, right. Absolutely. They're owning a business and the parents are doing really, really, really well. Yeah. They realize it's a, it's a great path. Just like, you know, an entry level position at a, at a law firm or investment company. Sure. You know, you're starting at 45$55,000 a year, maybe a little bit more than her apprentice starts at, but you're not making, you got to work your tail off to get to where you're making anything close to what your parents might be making or owning or managing one of our companies here at star, not even close to it. In fact, I'm going to say right now that the financial reward for a general manager, a great salesperson, our industry is equal to a law firm or an investment advisor or some of these other, or reconfirm Google or Paris a thought Amazon would rather walk in traffic then worked for them. Right, right. Yeah. But I mean, there's just this opportunity about being a small business owner that I didn't realize until I started here, had no clue about, not just that the trades were cool. Right. But that not only do I make a lot of money as a technician, but there's a really decent chance I could do other things too. Yeah, exactly. Like own a business or run a business or run a department. Do that at Amazon. Yeah. Good luck. You're not going to on Amazon. No, you're not. No, no one for a drone. Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a great message. So what, you know, and I, you work here, Kate, I do. You know, so when you first saw the APP, so you, you came in, you weren't recruited in by me, I didn't know, you know, you know, you answered, uh, how did you find out about the foundation? What did you first think? I found the job on linkedin. Okay. And read the description and was curious and intrigued by the opportunity, by what the foundation did and what next star did. Had never heard of those, these two entities in my life. And a little bit of uncertainty with I have, I know nothing about this industry. My career up until then had been in senior housing. So I thought, well, you went from, you went from education to senior housing and then decided to apply for this job. Okay. Yeah. And, and so just so you applied for it and, uh, did you have prejudices coming into it? Did you have preconceptions and how did those change?

Speaker 2: 20:57

I don't, I don't know. That's a good question. I think I was just a little uncertain of, I don't, there's nothing I can bring to this role. I don't have experience in the trades. Right. Totally going in blind.

Speaker 1: 21:10

Yeah. But you know what, Katelyn, can it, can I, can I tell you though, that we're, we're thrilled to have you because you've had experience in higher education and you've seen that, right? You've been, you've been, you know, you've worked for the beast, so to speak, right. I'm just gonna call it that of my college ring. The proof for it. Get your college during the proof for it, but yet it's right. You'll work for the beast and, and, uh, you know, to be here now and, and, um, I'm just interested in that and how you, how your thoughts have changed.

Speaker 2: 21:38

Oh, dramatically. It's a one 80 for sure. Yeah. Yup. It's, it's really exciting to know our next, our members and their stories and to look at the, the, um, the spectrum of their businesses. It's, it's fascinating to me. It is from an outsider. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:59

That's cool. Cool. Yep. That is so cool. So you can, so let me, let me ask you a question. Okay. Okay. All right. Um, you were to go back to your job at Luther Yup. As a recruiter. Yeah. What would you do different today knowing what would you, what could you do it the way you did it? What would you do? How, how could you approach that job with, with integrity today? I know you could, but what would you do different?

Speaker 2: 22:24

I think it comes down to having a conversation with these high school kids. You know, when, when they're at school and parents on a round and they, uh, they ask questions, I think it becomes a more intentional conversation about the path that they're looking at and maybe what job they want to have in the future. And really taking a look at the amount of school, the costs associated with that and really telling them, you know, unless you're able to just stroke a check for the full tuition amount, expect to come out with student loans and that, you know, plays into your future decisions about what you want to do. You know, because when you think about those student loans and how long they could last, gives you a little heartburn. Yeah, it does. Yeah. If you're not sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:08

Yeah. So as it should. So I, again, I'm kind of leading here. Okay. But I'm assuming that, that, you know, Kate, the, uh, the pure sales agent for Luther might change a little bit, a little bit right now if you were to go back. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but so let's talk about, about going forward here. Okay. So, um, we want to talk about, again, the, the work that people can do listening to this because I got to tell you that, that, you know, to, to help some young person who's not quite sure where to go in life, you know, because there's, you know, you just don't know at 18. No, you just don't know, you know, and, um, to, to set someone down a path where they're going to create 50,$80,000 worth of debt and still be unsure at the end of two or three years, right? Again, 40% of the people at least don't finish this thing. Right? Right. You, even if they do this, sometimes work in another trade or another thing, right? Absolutely. Um, I think it's going to come down to two people being intentional about the conversations. And what I mean by this is, is, uh, you know, the narrative of this industry as being option B isn't going to change with an marketing campaign or a series of emails, right? It's going to change by somebody with that. Somebody trusts having a conversation with the young person about the realities of this trade. Right, right. Yeah. And that's what I want to say here about what the foundation is really focused on. Doing sure is giving those people those materials. Yeah. So let's talk about this next year. What are some of the things the foundation is going to create that will help people have, uh, who influenced,

Speaker 2: 24:49

yeah, it's real conversation. Yeah. So the foundation is excited to look at this year and kind of create a career fair toolbox. And what I mean by that is, you know, creating these items that we can send to contractors and toward Nexstar members and to schools to just show students another path that's possible. And, and I, some of those ideas would be to have students out to your shop because a lot of them don't know what you would do as a plumber or an electrician. They don't know the scope of that work. And so I think it's important for them to see it firsthand. I think it's important to have conversations with parents if that opportunity exists. Um, and to really tell them what they do day to day. She's like, I think kids are really interested in that. They are. Yeah. And so one of the things you said is this, so kind of a career day kit. Yeah. And then you mentioned, you know, having him in your shop, you're creating some tools to help facilitate. Yes. Kind of, um, introducing the trade, right. There's someone with interest yes. In your shop. Yup. How do you do that? Yup. Yes. Yeah. I'm just putting them on the, the third seat of a truck. What do you do? Yeah. So it, you know, we're envisioning this as having students come up to the shop at coordinating that with the guidance counselor, giving them three or four hours to two or the shop, show him what the tools are like the truck. Have some of your technicians, have some of your CSRS, you know, marketing people, if you have any, just to really talk about what they do. I mean, what does the day to day aspect, you're not just, you know, doing the dirty stuff, so to speak. And we've, we've piloted this in the twin cities. Yeah. We

Speaker 1: 26:30

have had some, some students come to a warehouse here in town where we had some of our members trucks there with their technicians. Yes. And they tell their story. They do. And tell me how that go. It was really cool. The technicians who were there were very honest and open about why they chose the field they did and kind of told their stories of how they got there and the, uh, the lives that they've been able to build for themselves and their families, you know, and some of those awesome opportunities that come because of this job. You know, like taking their family to Disney world. I mean, that's a pretty cool, yeah. Yup, Yup. That before was a kind of hand to mouth. Yes. Kind of stumbled into the trade. Yes. He's really proud. Yeah. Making a great living. Yup. Yup. Awesome way. Yeah. And, and I think by for the students to hear those stories, they were really clued in on them. I mean, they were listening intently. No one was, there was no side talk. You know, they weren't distracted. They were absolutely locked in on what they were saying. Yeah. So that's a cool thing. So, so the this and this happened and it can happen as simple as this is a contractor going to a guidance counselor saying, I'd like to offer my location up, introduce plumbing, air conditioning, electrical to as many young people as you can. Throw my way. Here's the outline I'll use for this cruise. Yeah. And maybe putting somebody that's a little more relatable in front of these young people, like a young technician. Right. In our case here, we had some young men of color, so we had a couple of technicians of color as well, so they could kind of relate better than old Jack Tester. Right, right, right. Exactly. So, so, but there's relatable stories, right? Yeah, very much. It's not me on high. Yeah. The CEO nextdoor telling what they should do. It's somebody who's 32 years old telling them how they struggled and their journey and all of a sudden they found a purpose in a career of meaning. And how cool is it to do that? Yeah, it was, it was pretty awesome. I mean you could, you could see these young men that the students who were there, they got it. And you know, that age group anyway, 16 1718 it's hard to hold their attention anyway, but they got it. It was pretty cool. And Yeah, if you do that to an a, you know, again, you do it with 30 people, 15 people, you know, maybe one gets it. That's okay though. That's one yet still one person, I say it prevents him from going to the beast, which is four year liberal arts. It's$100,000 worth of debt. Right, right. And Yup. A sense of in a sense that you didn't finish something, right. Yeah. But you know, start the trade, get your license, get your truck. Yeah. Do some good work. And who knows where it goes from there. It just have a great career as a technician install it. Oh, absolutely. Amazing. Yeah, it's amazingly. So there's a lot of good things come in here and the foundation, and I encourage the folks listening here, how would they find this information and find out more about how they can plug in and get out. They're changing this narrative that this trade is, is option B, option a, where should they go? Sure. All of our, all of our information is online@explorethetrades.org that's the foundation's website. That's it. That's it. So the foundation is all about equipping influenced it conversations. It's more than just scholarships, right? It's really about really about changing the narrative and equipping people to have one on one conversations and encouraging people to have those one on one conversation. That's right. Especially the people that are in this industry right now that we can't leave it to the guidance counselors because they've got all kinds of people whispering in the rear. Right. And they all came from college and I know how they think because they were part of the beast. Like you were all part of that. I escaped. Same Horn. Different beasts. Yeah. Right. It's all, it's all the same. So, um, so I'd encourage folks to do that cause it's very exciting. And, and you know what I think Kate versus even five years ago, I think the world is starting to get a little more receptive. You're hearing it in political messages now you're hearing candidates talk about other kinds of, of training and you know, I think, I think the, and I do think that the bubble will burst on college campus. It's just can't keep accelerating like it is and is bloated entities with all the expense and you know, it just, it just doesn't make sense. You know, it does, just doesn't, and I, and I'll say this right now, I don't want to, you know, tell someone not to go to school or not to go to college. But there's some amazing people here at next door that are doing amazing things on the staff and next door. They never went to college. Yeah, absolutely proud to work alongside them. They're just as smart as us. That did. I'm a college guy with a 2.7 GPA. Look where you are and I'm going to say where I am, had nothing to do what I did in college right there. We'll do it with, with what I did after that. So well, thank you for your good work on the foundation, Kate. Thank you. Thank you. And I would encourage you all to take advantage of what and the foundation offers

Speaker 3: 32:06

and thank you all for listening. This awesome episode here of Leadership Lounge is subject test or with Kate Cinema. And we will catch you next time. See you later.