Leadership is for Everybody - Chris Woodward, Workforce Transformation Consultant

How strategic is HR within your organisation? 

In this episode, Chris Woodward, a workforce transformation consultant,  joins  the conversation  with Sam and Vic around moving from a resource-based view of managers to a talent-based view where everybody has potential. 

We need to ensure the value of strategic HR is known. We need to think about how to maximise the potential of people. And that takes leadership.

Chris discusses that leadership is the game changing area to focus on. It's not just about those at the top - leadership is for everybody.

There is so much in this podcast. Here's a peek at the key takeaways:

• Discretionary effort from your people and teams genuinely has potential for game changing results.
• Talent. There’s an opportunity to support HR to support you. Help HR be more strategic. Be more innovative in how you attract and retain talent.
• Really value the importance of trust and collaboration in your organisation. This underpins a high performing team and results for your organisation.

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https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome to get Amplified from the Amplified Group, bringing stories to help leaders in the tech industry execute at speed through the power of working together. I'm at home in Buckinghamshire where it's sort of sunny. Sun's trying to get out. Becky, how's uh life over in Deepest Darkest Oxfordshire?

Vic 0:26

Yeah, the sun is just trying to get out here too, Sam. Funnily enough, we're not that far away from each other, really, are we?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah, yeah, we've probably got largely the same, largely the same weather. I'm hoping to get the law in mode later. So who have we got on the podcast today?

Vic 0:40

On the podcast today, we are continuing our theme of looking outside of the tech industry to get some different perspectives. And I, through an introduction from David O'Hara, I met Chris Woodward, who is the former head of HR and strategic advisor at the OECD. And he's lately been at the manufacturing company AWE near Reading in the defence and nuclear sector. But what's really fascinating about Chris is he is a workforce transformation consultant and an executive coach to international clients. And the conversation that we had was very much about HR in the future. So when I asked him if he would do a podcast with us on innovating HR, because we have been saying for quite some time that the HR role inside of tech organizations needs to have a seat at the senior leadership table and have a voice and play a significant role there. And we are seeing that transformation happening and we are seeing that position being played more and more. But Chris brings such a different perspective. Every time I speak to him, I learn something new. So I'm really excited to cover the topic today.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Brilliant. Well, welcome, Chris. We're delighted to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. It's um it's a real privilege to be here. So hi Vicki, hi Sam, and hello to anyone listening.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

We do this every time. Would you mind giving us a little canter through your career history, if you don't mind, please?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a career in three phases, if I can say that. I'm a veteran, so I spent the first half of my career in the army around the world doing all sorts of crazy things, but ultimately leading from day one. And I also had an opportunity to learn quite a lot with academic interventions, you know, in HR and MBA and things like that, which I was able to bring in to you know, not just policy developments, but opportunities to really innovate around talent, which is that's what really uh I love, I suppose. Secondly, I've started in the morning. Yeah, absolutely. Secondly, I moved into consulting, uh, where I've had opportunities to help people with the development of what I'd call relational competencies, so leadership development programs, uh, talent strategies, and building frameworks for learning and cultural transformations and things like that. I've also moved to other consultancy firms where I've worked with technologies, new technologies, creating ecosystems to support how HR works better. And it was from there that I was then asked to become a head of HR at the OECD that Vicky mentioned over in Paris. That was a bit of a step change, but it means that I've got a specialist um experience in learning and talent management, but a generalist ability to speak across HR from a strategy and operating model perspective. And I suppose what I do best is I like to come in, I'm quite curious, inquisitive, see where people are at. What's the functional maturity of this HR team and see what we can do to make it more effective, more strategic in its value add? And ultimately, what it's there to do is to support businesses to be better. It's not HR's job to manage people, it's business leaders' jobs to do that. So, how can we support teams and leaders to do that that better? That's my raison d'etre, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Cool, that makes sense. And obviously, we're look we're looking at um tech for tech sector stuff, and you're something of an innovator, maybe, in the HR side of things. What do you see as the key issues facing tech firms? I mean, facing firms in general, but tech being our specific area of interest.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you're right to say that I think tech has got some of its own unique aspects, but it's not unique across the board, and there are things that affects all organizations in all sectors. I I've had an opportunity to, as a consultant, to work in the tech sector supporting clients there. So I've kind of based my answer on that. But for me, two things the war for talent affects everybody, but particularly hitting hard in tech, digital skill sets in particular. I think when you look at also millennials, Gen Z coming into the workforce, we're seeing incredibly high costs to recruit, high levels of churn, people are leaving, retention's a problem. And what this does is it means that one talent shortfall becomes almost your number one risk in tech. And secondly, you're not as productive as you could be, because either you've got gaps or you're not getting everybody firing on all cylinders. Perhaps the offers not bespoke to meet the needs of all the different types of people you might have in your firm. And the second point, I think, is it's almost a mindset where, for me, focusing on people and what makes them perform, how you motivate folks, is the game-changing aspects to how you might drive performance in your numbers, your figures, your profit margins. And it's very easy, and many do it, to focus on getting the stats high, the numbers high and right. And I think that this could be a game-changing factor. It's also backed up by Cornferry Intellectual Property, I think, as well, here, which talks about the real benefits of getting after discretionary energy, which is how you get your workforce incentivized, motivated, and giving more in terms of effort and going the extra mile.

Vic 6:46

Yeah. We call that the intrinsic motivation and the lifecycle journey of the clients that we work with. That's why we use Beacon Force towards the end. So once we've got an established team, we start really measuring their intrinsic motivation. And it's staggering how that makes a difference to how organizations perform. I'm not saying beacon force, it just beacon force tracks it for us, but then how that correlates to how that team delivers, going that extra mile. And I always used to call it going the extra mile until I learned the term intrinsic motivation. Maybe we can have another discussion offline.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I prefer going the extra mile.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

That all makes sense. For me, there's also an analogy and might speak to Sam's love of cars, where actually you might have everything you need, but the engine's not performing well, it's a bit clunky. And so you've got your foot on the accelerator, but you're just not going as fast as if you've got a finely tuned engine that would be.

Vic 7:43

Something that we've spoken about in the past that you've also experienced working with tech companies is those individual contributors that are then put into manager roles, that it's a slightly different skill set, to put it bluntly. Can you just talk to that for us for a minute of what your experience is there?

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Yeah, some of the hardest roles to do are when you promote from your peer group to your first experience of line management. And I think there's two or three things to consider here. One is what's the role, what's my role now, and how do I show up differently? Secondly, I think there's something around. So as a leader, I think you need to be comfortable that you're not the doer.

Vic 8:29

And so that's the big difference, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Yeah. So so there's a real mindset shift around how do I generate performance through others? And clearly, when we talk about it like this, it's easy to see that actually what I need to do is I need to support, I need to enable, I need to resource, I need to incentivize rather than actually be the person, you know, doing handle on the tools, the widgets, and and so on. I know that's not a great example for the tech sector, but you know what I mean. And so I think those are the key aspects. But for me, underpinning all of that, there is an absolute imperative for people to learn, to develop. You can't just be a leader without transforming yourself in some way. And so that's some of the work that I've been helping leaders do. I know you do as well. It's about what I'd call vertical development, it's about being more comfortable with competing levels of prioritization, complexity, uh, and so on. And of course, those who get to board level need to have showcased development through career. And there's a whole load of different mindset shifts, I think, that that need to support leaders. Coaching's useful for that as they progress into you know more and more senior leadership positions. And I say leadership because we often talk about management, you know. Oh, I'm a manager, I'm this. And I think we need to be clear that there is a big difference here.

Vic 9:52

Yeah, huge difference, gigantic.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

And actually, we don't want to have a shot at defining that difference for us, then, Chris.

Vic 9:59

Yeah, that you're right, it is a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

And it's a perennial point of discussion, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:05

I think many, many would would say something similar but in a different way, perhaps. But for me, management is about you know the ability to resource things, to manage the understanding of resources to outputs and so on. And what that does is it creates effective outputs, it moves things along, it's all very good, but it's transactional and it sees things as resources. All right. Now, can you imagine working in that context as someone who is a resource that is being managed for an output? It doesn't feel particularly incentivizing unless you're super excited about the process and the output, right? So for me, leadership is about that connect, human to human. It's about generating followership and it's about making people more capable, more connected. And I'm gonna add more empowered as well. Now, not every leadership star would do that, but I think that's really important in tech to make sure that you've got a really clear intent, that it's communicated exceptionally well, and you give people space to bring their whole selves, their brains, that's why they're there, to deliver, you know, with others on your behalf to go in the direction that you you're looking to go.

Vic 11:17

Very eloquently put.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Nice, yeah, useful, useful, really interesting. So, as you talked earlier about the issues facing organizations and you know, specifically tech, but probably generally as well. How do we work with HR and how does HR support the business to mitigate these risks?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

I think there are some, what I've seen anyway, is there's different levels of maturity across organizations, and this will be the same across the tech sector. There needs to be a real clear understanding of what HR is there to do. In those organizations where HR is less mature, it's an administrative support function with an emphasis on recruiting that's yes, may well partner with the business, but it's not really doing strategic work, it's not in the big decision-making forums. And to Vicky's point, where she talked about earlier, there's a requirement for HR to be on the executive committee, absolutely. Why? Because people are most people's businesses, they have the potential to be the biggest value add, but it's up to the board and leaders in the business to drive performance and value add through their people, and that's not really the role of HR, but HR is there to support business leaders to do that. So I think there's three things perhaps that that HR needs to focus on and how it would support teams. I'll make that clear as we go. But firstly, I think there's something around making sure that the strategic or the value of strategic HR is known, is talked about, and people are really getting after that. And that's going to shape resourcing and prioritization for tech investments into HR, for getting the right leaders into HR, and at what level people partner, chief people officer on the, you know, supporting the board, and all of that. I think the second thing is in my experience, those HR functions that have invested in in technologies have been able to progress into more mature ways of working. Now it's not just technologies, it's about how organized, what's the operating model, how game-changing is the strategy. I wrote a talent strategy for a pharmaceutical firm where this it was owned by the CEO, right? And he wanted a firm that was curious, inspired, and unbossed, for unbossed read empowered. But it almost gave permissions for how people behave, for how people needed to collaborate to create, in this case, better patient centricity, end-to-end connectivity, greater levels of collaboration, more employee voice, more choice about how people develop their careers, grow, and add value. So I think there's now a lot of HR information systems that use AI, get after that. There's loads of incredible, I could talk about that all day, but um, you know, there's many organizations that don't use the functionality that is now starting to be in the market there. I think the final thing is just to build on the fact that leadership development and defining what leadership means for you in your as the CEO, not the HR director, the CEO of that organization. What does good look like? What do you need from leaders? And what are the behaviors associated with that? And then really developing people in that space so that you can create a learning culture, high-performing series of teams, which I think is incredibly visible. It would make your organization more attractive from the market perspective. People would want to stay there because it was fun and cool and supportive and enables me to bring my whole self and to develop myself in the way that I want, etc., etc.

Vic 15:14

It also attracts talent as well, doesn't it? It becomes a magnet when you've got an organization like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah, and I think that's one way to mitigate this war for talent, right? So everybody is paying more and more and more, but that's incredibly expensive. And you don't always get the right behaviors just from right.

Vic 15:32

Um, and so you don't anymore because there's like a baseline of what's expected, and it's like it's not about that, it's about how people feel at work.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

It'll give you a short short-term return. Yeah. If you want people to genuinely stay, this is a getting after the retention aspect, they've got to want to really be there, to be part of it, yeah. Um, and to feel that they are um of that firm. There's a there's a it's about getting after belonging, I suppose, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

And this this is about way more than sticking a couple of table tennis tables in the breakout area and and and ordering pizza once a week, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Yeah, yeah, and it's also more than having values charters on the walls and everything. This is about how people relate with each other. And one of the most powerful things I've seen actually is where organizations have gone much further than, you know, oh, here's our kind of coins or recognition tokens for age-based or time-based service, etc., to where they've thought about what are the behaviors that get after validating why people are there and the value that they add, recognizing where people show up every day. So it's not a case of oh, you've done amazing on this project and you've done it. Here's a bonus. This is saying, I appreciate you for being you because you add value here. So recognition for being rather than recognition for doing, if that makes sense. And that really helps people, I think, thrive and to build psychological safety and trust in in teams, which are they're essential ingredients for any team that you want to be high performing, in my experience.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

So this is a big minds mindset shift, you think, for the leadership team?

SPEAKER_02 17:22

For many, and I used to run uh coaching sessions with leaders in the tech sector as a consultant, and I think no, not necessarily. Well, what I mean here is that many many would agree straight up and go, yeah, absolutely. I see that. That's uh yeah, of course. They probably knew the answer already, but it's very different when you then immerse yourself back in your context and your culture in your organization to then live it. So there's something here around role modelling and being a cultural ambassador to how the values and you know the leadership aspects are lived. And the other thing is that you've got to be you've got to align behaviors with your strategies, with what you're saying, and what you're holding people accountable for in your organization, who you're hiring and making sure you get the right fit. All of this, and this is where HR comes in, and this is where HR that is more mature, is more objective. I think you can be quite scientific about trying to find really great diverse teams, diversity of thoughts, different neurodiversities, thinking outside the box around where talent comes from. And one thing I would emphasize is do you need to have people with these qualifications at these levels and grades for these pays? Actually, you could deconstruct work here. You could say, what are the skills and the competencies, the relational as well as the technical competencies to deliver what we need? You can then make talent much more mobile across your organization, and critically, you can get after hiring and moving people into your organization from weird and wonderful places where those skills exist, but where you wouldn't have perhaps looked in the past. Very often it's a case of do we need these people from these universities, etc. Actually reimagine that. Yeah, I like that. I think that's really interesting.

Vic 19:25

Even just thinking about amplified group, the vast majority of us come from the tech industry. We have Pippa Hutchison who brings incredible expertise, knowledge, experience, and just brings a different perspective. She's come from retail, and just her experience just brings a different perspective and is helping out in such a different way. We've really, really, really benefited from it.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I think that's that stuff is almost always important. You know, hiring grads, um, as we did a lot at SoftCat, those who'd done some form of work somewhere were almost invariably more productive than those who hadn't, uh, you know, however good their degree was, because that experience enabled them to understand, empathize with the customers a little bit better. You know, the tech grad program, I always like to hire someone who tried to run their own business for a bit, even if it hadn't been successful, because they just had some knowledge and some experience that that was usable. I think you know, you look at teaching, isn't it great to have someone who's worked in business for 20 years, has done really well, and then goes into teaching and can bring that those experiences to teaching? If you look at politics, we've got many lifetime politicians who've got no real-world experience of working in retail or tech or law or anything. Wouldn't it be better to bring those ranges of experiences together? Not make it a political point here remotely, more that we could raise the overall bar if we had a better variety of people with a variety of experiences, perhaps.

Vic 21:13

Isn't it diversity on a different level?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

This is diversity isn't is never not a good thing, right? Yeah, yeah, you're right. I I think this is where you need to drill down even further and say because Sam, I would challenge you and say, you're right, you've talked about certain skills from from more diverse places, but actually, if you're looking for someone with coding skills, for example, you also need now that person to be more collaborative or the potential for that. You need someone who kind of knows what to do when he doesn't know what to do, or she. Yes, you need somebody who has perhaps had experiences that have created an element or or uh some kind of resilience uh to overcome rather than to you know dip below the line and. Become more of a victim or that's more attitude, isn't it? Yeah, but that's vital in a team, and it's vital to drive performance, it's not just about the hard skills, and then this is this is my point. If you really kind of dissect what you need into those skills and competencies, it offers you more opportunities to find different places and ways to find that. And this is from an HR perspective, we're now kind of touching on strategic workforce planning, and there are different models for this, but in essence, it allows you to have those richer, more strategic conversations with business leaders and at the exec where you say, are we in the right place for where our talent would need to work? Are we the right shape? Have we genuinely got the emphasis right around how we bring talent into the organization? What if we kind of create porous borders and we do share also common kind of schemes, or we get after boomerang talent, or we've got a fantastic alumni, let's bring them in, or you know, and in the defense sector where I've supported that recently, they're creating an enterprise approach between the public sector organizations and the private sector industries so that people can support those with niche or specialist skills, either in you know, nuclear or cyber or even complex program management. There's ways to really rethink how you can get skills into your organization with the relational aspects without it always having to come from oh, we need to scrape the barrel and recruiters, you know, being knee-to-chest being thrashed.

Vic 23:36

We're a bit blinkered, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I think is what I look out for if I'm kind of assessing the maturity of an HR function, what's the emphasis on recruitment versus other opportunities? Now, of course, people want talent now. The quickest way is very often just to recruit or buy someone in. But there's technologies out there that are becoming more and more prolific that can do some of the things that that workers can do. Talent can come in from, as I've said, you know, from a number of different places and through career. There are people who are like me, slightly older, who have the opportunity to really add value. Uh, if you've decodified what it is that you need, there's something for everybody, I would suggest, but we do become a little bit kind of fixated by what good looks like for us.

Vic 24:28

Yeah, it's a bit short term, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

You mentioned tech there, and you mentioned AI and HR earlier. Could you perhaps go into a bit more detail about what that means for HR?

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Sure. What I've seen over the last four or five years is an absolute boom in AI, SaaS, HR technologies. And what they're doing is they're getting after those things that enable more strategic HR value add. For example, getting after employee experiences and making them much better. You know, we all use devices where it's much more intuitive, and it's in it's playing that technology, the machine learning aspects, the chatbots, and so on, it's taking away a lot of the administrative bureaucratic processes into things like candidate relationship management tools, applicant tracking systems for recruiting. We also see this in onboarding platforms. We also see this in how we enable employee voice. So this is not just surveys, this is about having apps on phones where people can just check in where they're at, what's pissing me off today? You know, or actually, I've got a great idea and I want people to know about it. There's platforms and solutions out there which allow you to measure the mood. So, for example, where have we got well-being or stress hotspots across the organization? How can we dynamically do something about that to mitigate a risk or to seize an opportunity? There's talent marketplaces, there's companies out there, there's many. Um, biometrics, gloat, nearbrain, blah, you know, there's there's a lot that are really helping employees see almost put themselves into a supply and demand construct for skills where they go, well, I've been assessed and I've got these skills, these competencies, but I know these roles that I'm looking at, or even ones that have been pushed to me, require these skill sets, and I'm nearly there. And I could just I could do this, and then I know that I could be able to do well at a stretch, I've got the potential for this job or for that job, and it creates career development. And that's really game-changing, not just for employees, but for those who want to resource their talent quickly into the right place at the right time to add value for productivity, speed to market, you know. So, for example, if you if you're making a different product and you've got these skills in your organization, what is the cheapest, quickest way to reskill, to do different? These technologies help uh to do that. Talent marketplaces is is is is what I'd call it. There's more, um, and it's definitely the future for talent as in this space. Some people ask me about AI and whether that's you know going to fundamentally change HR. I think it's it's not necessarily going to take away all of jobs, but what it will mean is that those who are good and comfortable using AI technologies in their business will be much more employable than those who are not really able to engage with it.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

So as we um as we come to a close, would you give us a final word, maybe, Chris, on leadership?

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah, absolutely. We've talked about some of the structural elements and the technology aspects and deconstructing work, and that's all relevant to mature and HR function. But for me, leadership is the game-changing thing to focus on. Yes, with the others, but get leadership right and the others can follow. Implement all the others, and and you don't uh have a focus on leadership development. And by leadership, I don't mean those at the top, I mean get a definition for what good leadership looks like in your business that everybody can aspire to and develop towards. Leadership is for everybody. We've talked about managers becoming leaders, but actually, employees who aren't managers, how can they lead themselves better? How can they develop themselves? How can they collaborate? How can they step up and show up in that kind of way to improve collaboration, horizontality, you know, bringing the outside in, ideate, innovate, all of these good things that you need to get to market quicker come, I think, through exposing people to good quality think pieces and experiences where people can develop as leaders. I I've been lucky in my career that I've led from day one. It's I've almost done it the other way around. So I've led first and learned some of the technical stuff second. It's normal that it's the other way around for people, I get that. But I'll give you a couple of examples of leaders who've really made a difference for me. And this was almost like flicking a switch on. Two leaders, one was in consulting, one was in the military, but both genuinely demonstrated how they prioritized what mattered to me more than what mattered to them. The ego was switched off, and this was a servant leadership approach. The the chap from the consulting space spent 80% of his time supporting his direct reports, pushing stuff to them at the right time so they could be the best they can be. And you know what happened? We ended up winning gold medals across consulting awards in the sector. We were known and there was a vibe. And so you got people who were talking positively in the team about the team, and the team was absolutely underpinning bottom line performance, and that stemmed from that leader's approach. And I think the other chap, the military one, he was really had an optimism bias, and he believed in supporting and empowering those who he commanded, and it it it wasn't a it was never a directive command, it was more of an empowering place to be where trust and listening was at the heart of his approach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Great, thank you for that. So we've uh we've covered a huge amount of ground there. Do you think you'd be able to summarize that stuff for our listeners, maybe in three key takeaways? Maybe that's challenging.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Um okay, so the first thing is I think it's it's the discretionary effort from your people, your teams, and within the organization that genuinely has the potential to create game-changing results. Is that where your focus is at? Would be my question. The second point is I don't know a company that's not fighting in the war for talent, especially in tech. And as a result, I think there is an opportunity here to support HR to support you. Help HR become really strategic so you can get the most out of your people. You can think more imaginatively and more innovatively about how you attract and retain talent in your organization and get the most from it. And the third point, I think, is to really value the importance of building trust and levels of collaboration within your organization. Those, for me, are the ingredients that underpin what a high-performing team needs, and a high-performing team is more likely to achieve better results for your organization. If you want that, then I think you need to move away from uh a resource-based view of managers to a talent-based view where everybody has potential and you're thinking about how you can maximize that potential. And that takes leadership.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Makes sense. That's a cracking summary point, I think.

Vic 32:38

Isn't it? I'm like, we've just got quote after quote coming out from you on the screen.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

On one last thing before we let you go, would you be so kind as to recommend a book for our guests?

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah, I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to books in this space, but there are. Can I have two? I'm gonna be selfish. I'll be very quick.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

As you only took three takeaways, you can have an extra book.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Uh so so I think for me, the the book that really I found game-changing in terms of that mindset shift around talent was one that I read pre-COVID, and it's called Talent Wins, and it's a playbook for CEOs. So, this is for your top team, and in particular the Chief Exec. It's by Dennis Carey, Dominic Barton, and a chap called Ramcharan. They are ex-Cornferry and McKinsey partners. And what it does is it looks at how you can position HR alongside the CFO and the CEO in a triangle at the top. So you are genuinely creating a people-centric organization that can deliver the results, blend getting the people and the numbers together at the top. And that's a great read. The second one is a book called Um Work Without Jobs, and that's by a chap called Ravin uh Jessitha San and John Boudreau, and I think they're of MERSA kind of that house. And they argue that, especially in the tech sector and the digital world, organizations need to deconstruct work and jobs. And we've talked a bit about this on this call. It provides you with a handrail. If you're interested in this, this is the how-to book to create a skills-based organization uh to make your talent more agile and fluid around the organization. And before I read that, I kind of knew that that was something that would add value, but I didn't necessarily know how to get about doing it. And this book enables that.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

That sounds well worth a read.

Vic 34:42

Doesn't it, Just? Yeah, both of them. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Brilliant. Well, thank you, Chris. That was a speedy canter through the whole world of HR and how HR is evolving, talent and skills-based management. Really interesting. Thank you for that. Very much appreciate you joining us on the podcast and I hope you enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

I did. You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

I appreciate it. Brilliant. Thank you. So it just remains to me to say thanks for listening to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group. As always, your comments and your subscriptions are gratefully received.