When does a founder stop being CEO ?

The Get Amplified team are joined Francisco, founder and former CEO of ITQ. This is a fascinating personal story of how Francisco recognised his blind spots and appointed a new CEO to run his company. ITQ goes from strength to strength, recently winning VMware’s EMEA partner of the year for knowledge.

We would love you to follow us on LinkedIn! 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Sam 0:09

Welcome to Get Amplified, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders covering topics from keeping up with the pace of change, staying fulfilled in your role, and looking out for the well-being of your team and yourself. This podcast is brought to you by the Amplified Group. As always, we're virtual. I'm at home in Buckinghamshire, Vicky's in Deeper Oxfordshire, Sia's over in the Netherlands. So, Sia, what's our topic for today?

Sia 0:34

Well, our topic today is built around one main thing, which is I trust culture. And we have a guest on who I'm really pleased to say, even though he's not right next to me in the Netherlands, is also in the Netherlands as well. So I'm not alone over here for a change. And uh Francisco is going to talk about the strength of a leader and being vulnerable, and also a leader that recognizes their blind spot. And I'm gonna say his name because I've been practicing it, which is Francisco Perez van der Oord. Hope I got that right, Francisco. That's good. Um and Francisco is the former CEO, but still the owner and founder of ITQ. So Francisco is gonna talk about why he's no longer the CEO, but obviously still at ITQ. With that, Sam, I'm gonna hand over to Francisco Peru.

Francisco 1:27

Yes, welcome. So Vicky and Siaron and Sam, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I um I started uh ITQ, I think it was 2001, and I was 24 in that time. Um, so pretty young for starting a business. And um, yeah, I and I used to work uh together with uh Paul, who was my uh who was my partner in crime in this company. Uh was a little bit older, but I'm not allowed to say that uh to people. Um but um we started the company in 2001 and we used to work for a consultancy firm. Our issue with that firm was that uh we didn't understand the why or the mission of the firm. Um so what we what we saw was that people who couldn't keep up the pace of all the new innovation uh there was invested a lot of money in them, but the consultants who already did the job, we were doing the job at that moment, they were making the money, but nobody was taking care of them anymore. And in that time, I was already thinking that speed was the new currency, things were going faster and faster and faster. So, so we are had this thought in that time that uh let's find the right skilled people and create a program that we are going to invest in them permanently. So that was the the whole idea when we started ITQ in 2001. After 12 years, we looked to each other and say, Well, we did a pretty nice job, but it's not really that we are excited about one thing or really proud about something. So that was the time that we decided to uh move a little bit and uh find a new mission and a new why. Keep the same culture but move it a little bit. And well, the mission we created in that time was uh trying to be the best VMware consultancy company in the MIA. That was the mission, and the why was uh or still is um helping uh customers with this innovative VMware technology to be more agile. So that's so that's where we are today, I think. Um we're doing a lot of work in the Benelux region, uh, but still 30% of our businesses uh in the rest of Europe. And um, yeah, today I'm responsible. My responsibility is partner for customer success, means that uh marketing, sales, and delivery are reporting to me. But like uh Cheryl already mentioned, uh I'm not longer the CEO anymore.

Speaker 2 3:50

Very interesting. Well, looking forward to uh to getting into the into the nitty-gritty of that, as it were. Uh Vicky, why is why do you think this topic's so important?

Vic 4:01

Well, I'm I'm also really interested to to hear Francisco's story and what you just said there about no longer being CEO. At the end of each podcast, we we um say who our hero is. One of my heroes is an organization that we worked with where the CEO recognized that he didn't have and the right strength to be CEO, and he recognised that it was time for him to move into a new role. And I think that it's a it's a really brave thing to do. So you know, as Francisco says that he recognizes blind spots in uh an IT leader survey that we did a couple of years ago, it was really very clear to us, and we we um surveyed organizations that were startups to do or to tech giants, and what we found was that even very small organizations that were 15 years old and more had not been able to scale because they'd been held back by the founders because the founders were still in the role, even though they were businesses and growing perhaps, yeah. Yeah, they probably knew deep down that they would not the right person to be the CEO. A CEO is is a very different role as a company matures, and to be able to have that insight to recognize that it's time to change role, it doesn't mean you necessarily have to leave the company like like Francisco, you know, is clearly helping um ITQ go from strength to strength, and it's phenomenal um what what ITQ is doing.

Speaker 2 5:52

You know what's what's really interesting, I hadn't thought about this before we started this podcast, but um as you know, I was with with SoftCat for 20 years really, and I joined when Peter, the founder, was still MD, still in charge, really, on a on a day-to-day basis. And I remember him talking about what we do next, about probably five years, maybe five or six years into my soft career, um, and saying, I'm an entrepreneur. The definition of an entrepreneur is someone who grows a business to a hundred people and screws it all up. I'm out of control. We I'm I'm out of control. We need a real managing directory. Um which makes a sense.

Speaker 4 6:42

Yeah, well, you know, it's it's how I thought. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 6:46

Exactly that. And what um an interesting concept of hand over your baby, he you know, he used to refer to it as his fifth child. Um to hand over your the the your your baby to somebody else, which is I guess you know, to some extent, is what you've done, Francisco. Really interesting. So, Francisco, what do you base the success of ITQ on?

Speaker 4 7:12

Well, I think it's a few things. Um people, focus, culture. Well, let's start with uh with the focus. Um, the so our mission is very clear at ITQ. So we know what we want to be. We want to be the the best AMIA partner for VMware from a knowledge perspective. So every time people are bringing new things in, I'm I'm asking them, is it bringing us something extra in our mission, yes or no? And if it's the answer is no, we don't do it.

Speaker 2 7:44

Yeah.

Speaker 4 7:45

Um that's the same with the why. If we're not helping customers to be successful, we're not gonna do it.

Speaker 3 7:52

Yeah.

Speaker 4 7:53

So people is this is is the other thing. So we're we're a people company, and um we make the joke internally that everybody is hand-picked, like and uh like a farmer is doing with his scrapes to create the best wine. So um I love that analogy.

Speaker 2 8:10

That's pretty yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 8:11

It sounds it sounds in a way funny, but it's it's it's really the basis.

Speaker 2 8:15

Perfect.

Speaker 4 8:16

Yeah. So Paul, my uh the the partner I started ITQ uh with, he is doing every job interview. There is a process before that, but he's doing the the final job interview. And if he's not convinced, he's our farmer in a way, if he's not convinced this is the right the right grape, you're not coming into the company.

Speaker 2 8:34

I suppose one one um one one bad grape spoils the flavor of the wine.

Speaker 4 8:40

Yes, and uh of course it happens sometimes, and that's something that we have to blame ourselves for, not uh not HR or the team manager who's responsible. Uh, but then we have to fix that problem. Um, and and um well and and the third thing is culture, but I think we will discuss culture more uh in this uh in this podcast. But I think the culture of ITQ is the basis of our complete success.

Speaker 2 9:07

So you you built an amazing team, you've won loads of awards recently. Um what's the secret source?

Speaker 4 9:16

What's the secret source? So, what we did um uh when we were redefining the company about uh about seven years ago was uh give our core values a more important place in the in the way we approach things. So we had the feeling that uh if you want to have focus and uh you want to know uh what your mission is and what the goals are you want to reach, you need some very stable core values. Um the thing with core values is that uh you can find some words, ours are passion, authenticity, ownership, and quality, but you can make 1000 words, it's it it doesn't say anything. Yeah, you have to make it explicit and you have to embed it in your processes.

Speaker 2 10:04

You you have to live in.

Speaker 4 10:06

Yeah, and uh that was something we were not really good in, and that's something we spend a lot of time and energy on with the uh with each other. So uh our core values are uh yeah, they are the uh the the basic process elements in our company. So if HR is doing his interviews or um uh his uh moments in the year that you have a discussion with your team manager about your performance or how are we delivering projects, it's embedded in everything. Yeah, um, so I think that's that's important, and uh um and the other thing um I think more recently, and that's one of the things the the new CEO started with, is you have to do the same with culture. And uh if you thought it is difficult to create core values and embed them in your organization, then I wish you a lot of good luck with doing that same with culture because uh having a management meeting and say to each other it's a good plan to make culture more explicit, yeah, that's like a one-hour talk, and then you have to start. Yeah, so uh I think we did it pretty successful about two years ago, and the way we did it was uh we created this group, work work group, a culture work group with people from the organization. HR was in there, people who were already in the company for 15 years, some people who were in the company for a few years, um, and this culture group that we give them the objective to uh to find a model and uh create storylines of content around our culture. And we created a second group, and um, I know the word in Dutch, it's a sound group, but I don't think that's a proper English word, a kind of a mirror group that everything that was created in this uh culture group has to go to the other group, and they will they have to say, Well, this makes sense, and it does this doesn't make sense. So after the curl at the core values, we created this whole culture programming through our company, and we did exactly the same as with the core value, we embedded it in everything what we are doing, and um what we try to create, and I think that's that that worked out pretty well, is that we want to give everybody a sense of belonging within the company. So we try to act as a family, and uh everybody in the family has to need has to feel a sense of belonging, um, and that's where uh the whole philosophy of uh we are one, we are one ITQ. Uh the difficulty with a consultant company is that everybody is everywhere, traveling around, spread out all over the country. Yeah, so I think the secret source of how you want to call it, it's uh it's make things explicit, talk about it, create storylines, yeah, embed it in processes, and don't do that only on a management level. Um, but if you take someone out of the team, uh maybe from HR or from the back office or a consultant or an engineer, they should understand the story. Yeah, otherwise it's not gonna not gonna work over message.

Speaker 2 13:21

No, that makes sense. That makes sense. You mentioned ownership as one of your key values. Isn't would you elaborate on that? Did you actually uh uh give up some of the share capital for people within the business? Is that how that works?

Speaker 4 13:37

Ah, that's a that's a that's a good one. So we are working on a program uh to reach that, but it's not there yet. And every everybody who's now listening from ITQ is thinking, well, maybe I can get some shares. Uh that's actually the plan that we have, but it's an it's not embedded yet. What we mean with ownership at this moment is that um if you're delivering a project or you try to fix a problem internally, you have to feel ownership for what you're working on, and uh that means that uh if you think uh somebody else is responsible for that, that doesn't mean that you have ownership. Um and um that's uh that's something that that's uh really working well at ITV. So if if we share an issue, everybody feels ownership to create a solution for it.

Speaker 2 14:28

Brilliant. No, that makes sense. Yeah, as opposed to actual um ownership of the share capital of the organization, although that's something that you're you're clearly working on.

Vic 14:39

What's fascinating about listening to to what you're saying, Francisco, you know, it's it's been incredible to watch the success that you've had. The video of you being on stage at part at the part the Emware Partner Conference in front of all of those thousands of people, and the organization that you created, that ownership piece. What we find with many clients that we work with is the biggest challenge that they have is the silos that form of people competing against each other inside the organization because they're not clear on their purpose, and there is a lack of alignment across the organization. But what it sounds like you have very deliberately created such a clear mission, and that ownership means that everybody is aligned and everybody feels responsible and everybody is moving in the same direction. Which to your point earlier about you know one of the reasons that you did it was in the speed of the new currency. If you've got everybody all pulling in the same direction, then you are able to move much more quickly. But that and that ownership piece is actually I'm gonna be a little bit controversial, Sam. I actually think that is more powerful than just the monetary piece of it because people want to feel like they belong and they were and actually it's that emotional involvement that makes people go the extra mile, not the money.

Speaker 4 16:14

I think the big difference between um having a vision and a strategy and executing it. So we're not only saying that the people are the most important asset. That's not only what we are saying, that's how we're living. That's what we that's fundamentally who we are.

Speaker 2 16:31

Yeah, that is the secret source, yeah.

Vic 16:34

Which is not sorry, it's it's not the it's up, you know, words that we've seen many times on posters in the in the kitchen and in the in the way you go that you're they're not it's not just marketing slogans, it's real and it's linked every day, which is which is what we try and do at the Amplified Group to help all of our clients, it's about making it muscle memory in the organization.

Speaker 2 17:01

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Sia 17:03

One of the points that Francisco made, which I think is really important, is that you actually whether you do it consciously or subconsciously, you hire on culture, and that actually saves so much time in the long run. Yeah. It might be brilliant people, absolute geniuses, but if they don't fit your culture, they they're not gonna help you in the long run.

Speaker 2 17:24

So they're not gonna help the mission.

Sia 17:26

Yeah, and that's your starting point. Hire the right people for your company, that company's just gonna grow and grow. So that's a really smart way of doing it.

Speaker 2 17:34

Very many parallels with the soft cat experience. It's very very interesting. Not you know, diff different thrust of the business, but uh you know, obviously similar, but very similar in terms of cultural strategies kind of stuff. Really interesting. As in culture is part of the strategy, uh yeah, as in culture is the strategy.

Speaker 4 17:54

Yeah, it's uh yeah, but I really believe in that.

Speaker 2 17:57

Yeah, no, I do, I do.

Speaker 4 18:00

If I really have conversations with people uh in the teams, so what's the reason you're working for ITQ? Is that the money, is that the projects, it's uh what is it? And um the number one topic is uh culture, being respected, feeling that we are working together on fixing the issues, the mission is very clear. It's all and mission is a culture thing too.

Speaker 2 18:23

Yeah, yeah. I you know, you've talked about the culture each strategy for breakfast or whatever the phrase is, and that's that seems to me to be more relevant than ever because the situation we're in at the minute with the the COVID pandemic is that every strategy is out the window because nothing is the same as it was before. So, you know, if you've got a strong culture, you'll get through it and you'll create a new strategy or or morph your existing one.

Speaker 4 18:51

But well, Sam, this is this is so interesting that you're saying this because we have this crisis corona team internally with the management, and uh we have this corona updates every two of them in every week, and uh we try to uh to uh communicate with everybody and understand what our steps are to survive this crisis, and uh we we take some measures too, of course. So uh not really big things, we always uh have discussions what how would it impact the individual? So uh we want to be very uh uh risk afforded. Well, you what's the right word for that? Um, and then there is this consultant writing an email to us as a management saying, Well, I really respect the way you think about this crisis, but uh, why is not everybody bringing some salary back to the company? Because uh these are strange and different times. So, with the management team, you are thinking, should we give uh extra free day or should we cancel a training or maybe should do something different with uh with uh with study budgets? And then these consultants are sending us emails. Well, we understand the situation, and if we have to cut some salaries for the next few months, uh well, let us know. Because people are bought into the company, yeah, and that was so I I almost had tears in my eyes when I was reading the email. So, what's happening over here? And uh that's uh I think that's culture too, yeah. So everybody's feeling the pain of the organization, and um everybody understands that uh we are really a healthy company and we will survive this crisis. But uh the reason we are so healthy is because everybody's so influenced and uh uh in the inner circle of the company.

Speaker 2 20:30

Yeah, so bought into it. Really interesting. So, Francisco, you were when you started the business the CEO.

Speaker 4 20:37

Yes.

Speaker 2 20:38

Clearly that's changed because you're now not the CEO, which is kind of interesting. Um what point in your journey did you realize you just you needed to do something differently, and and why did that happen?

Speaker 4 20:53

Well, that's that's that's not an easy question. No sure. Uh and I'm gonna share maybe a secret with you that uh so we changed uh my role two years ago, but I already made the decision five years ago, and maybe it was already six years ago. Um the biggest issue I had after my decision, and I will tell you later about my decision. The biggest issue was that we were not doing a bad job. We were growing the business 30% year over year. I saw a lot of happy faces around me, and I had this plan to give my job away to somebody else. Um so the first two years uh I spent convincing everybody that's a good that it is a good strategy to uh to change my role and to find a leader to uh to to grow the company. And then you already have the first issue why should you grow the company? Uh so what's what is the thing about that? So I spend a lot of time to explain people that in this world where things are changing so fast, it's important that we change models, uh, price models. And services models, we have to grow a little bit, be relevant for our own people, be relevant for our customers, be relevant for our partners. And Crow must be a part of that. After I succeed in that, I spent time of convincing people that I was not the right person. And then you start first with your partner in crime. He was not surprised, and he was understanding the discussion. So then you start with the rest of the management team. I think I spent about two years on that topic. Speed was not an issue at the moment because I was still managing it. But then, and then you have to find somebody, and that's that's of course a process too. The time I made the decision was that I I love to walk hiking, long walks, eight hours, ten hours. But the other reason is that I'm a little bit uh chaotic in my head sometimes. And um, if I'm getting tired, I got more time to focus and think on uh on topics uh I should think of. And um, my background is interesting then, too. That uh so my father is Spanish and my mother is Dutch, and um she was 18 when I was born. I'm from a I don't want to feel sound sad, but I'm from a poor family and from a social different and difficult situation. Um so I didn't went to college or whatever. I started working when I was very young, uh, I didn't learn any English until I was 30. Um so the background was it was not a really easy ramp-up. And um, I started the company when I was 24, I was already six years in IT, and I was feeling there was something wrong. So it was about five years ago, and I was doing this long, long, long walks, and I was thinking, what is the biggest issue at the moment? Doing long walks is really uh confronting yourself with being tired in one hand and have no time in your head to think about other things than your issue. And how longer I I did these walks, and how more I was thinking about my position, I was realizing that I was the biggest issue for the future because I'm an entrepreneur and I am doing 100 things at the same time, and uh, I can be very direct to people, and I'm not the best structured person in the world. And what does a company need who wants to grow? You need a stable management team, uh, you need structure, clear goals, uh, and basis you can build on. So, in one of these walks, I made a decision with myself that my mission should be in the next two, three years to replace myself. That's how how how it went.

Speaker 2 24:52

Brilliant. Wow, what what uh an amazing thing to decide to do? Uh, what advice would you give to any other CEOs or or business owners maybe thinking about that sort of thing?

Speaker 4 25:07

Well, well, first of all, if you're doing a great job, don't do do anything, just keep continuing doing this great job. Um, and then you have two types of CEOs. You've got the persons like me who are uh started the company and feeling the limitation of the success in the future. Um, that's where I can give some advice about because that was the situation I was in. Um, I think it's important to realize that uh you did a great job bringing the company from A to B, but it doesn't mean that uh with the talent you have, uh you're the right guy to bring it from C to D. And um and I think it's really important to understand what your uh what your where where your energy is and where your talent is, especially where your weaknesses are. So I think my advice would be to realize that. And maybe uh a positive part of that is that because it it feels a little bit like a demotion, yeah. You you was the CEO and now you're only responsible for um, and you're still the owner, but well, you're not the CEO. But if I look back in the last two years and how much respect I own for, and I and I I'm a person who gives a lot of value on respect. Um so I I think it's important that I respect people and they respect me. If I look back in the last two years, I'm sure they have more respect for me right now than two years back, and that says me for me more than a job title. Um, and the reason they respect me more is I think for two reasons. Uh, first of all, because I made this decision, uh, and it sounds as a tough decision. But the second thing is I'm using my talent and my energy uh for uh creating things in the company, they are really an add-on instead of somebody who's sendbacking and uh thinking he's doing the right things. So that would be my advice.

Speaker 2 27:02

That um yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 27:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2 27:08

How how did it make you feel when you came to that decision? And probably more interestingly, how did it make you feel when you finally handed the reigns over to somebody else?

Speaker 4 27:18

Well, first of all, five years ago, when I made a decision in my head, it feels like a flight in the first week like a release. So okay, now I know what the issue is. Uh but then um uh it cost me some time and I have to find the energy to to create this situation. Um but I have a very strong team around me, and when I explained it to the to to the to the management team, everybody uh was uh was in the creating solution modus. Um after the handover, um well I could talk hours about that because that's when it really gets gets difficult. So um I I was facing these two things. First of all, was that I'm I'm doing all kinds of projects and execution plans right now, and how do I come to hand over that to the new CEO? So what I did was I created a kind of a book about uh all the projects I was working on, all the visions and missions I saw we should fix, uh and all my thoughts around that. And I just the first thing I did, I I wrote this all down. I I presented this to Robert and tell him, do whatever you like to do with it, but that now you know what's in my mind about this topic. Yeah, and the second part, and that's extremely much harder, is uh giving him the trust that I believe in him and give him the space to operate. So the biggest concern I had about myself, because uh I'm a little bit chaotic and I do 100 things at the same time, but I have an opinion about everything too. So the concern I had was that uh every time he was doing something, I was creating an opinion about it. Yeah, so I I trained myself in a way that uh we I created space with uh with Robert, the new CEO, uh, to have very long discussions about topics, but I trained myself not to have an opinion about it. So I give my vision, I give him the trust, I tell him he was uh the the things I was thinking he was doing the right things. If I was seeing some things I was not really sure about, well, I was it was not the first thing I would discuss about, but it let it go. Um, but it was hard, it was not easy. It was yeah, yeah, especially yeah, I can well imagine. Yeah. The positive thing is that he was doing a great job, so uh that makes things extremely much easier than uh then it's the other way around.

Speaker 2 29:54

You clearly hired the right guy.

Speaker 4 29:57

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 29:59

So what's been the biggest impact on the business?

Speaker 4 30:04

What has been the biggest impact? Well, first of all, um I'm always working on uh on a hundred things, and uh I think that's important, doing a lot of things, and the first thing he did was creating structure. So um he he told me for Cisco, I was I I'm looking to the management team, and there is a board, and everybody's doing a lot of things, but nobody's know what he's working on and what the mission is of what he's working on. So let's kill one management line. So we used to have a board and we used to have a management team, and he told me for Cisco that's not working. We're creating one management team, and they are responsible for the whole company structure. So that was something I was not really convinced about in the first period. After two years, I'm really happy with that. Um, so he created this structure uh that uh that gives the possibility to people to uh to accelerate in the in their role. Um, so that was the I think the biggest impact uh switching uh the switch between him and uh and me. Um and there were some things that uh yeah that really surprised surprised me. And um yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 31:17

What's the what what what surprised you?

Speaker 4 31:19

What surprised me the most is that I told my wife that I had a new CEO so I could spend more time on the family. Okay, but that's not true.

Speaker 2 31:28

I was gonna say, I bet that didn't happen.

Speaker 4 31:30

No, no, no. No, so that was the biggest surprise. That um it it it if you're in if you're in a person on the right place where you got the right energy and you're doing the right things, there is only more things to do. Uh yeah, yeah. So um so that's one of the surprises, and the other surprise I had is that um well, I know it in 2020 it's uh still a very big discussion, but it's already there for like 15-20 years. Typical, typical manager person who is creating people around him who are a little bit the same as him, like me. Yeah, so if you look if you're looking to my management team, it's like it's all male, they're all all between 40 and 55, they're all hetro, they're all man. That's like like what you shouldn't do. That's what I did. Yeah, um, and the first thing uh our new CEO was telling me, Francisco, the diversity in this team is terrible, and um, and um, and that's what surprised me too, is that uh he he had the courage to say to me, Francisco, this is not a good thing, we should change this. We should bring other type of people in. Um, from and uh and and and the results of that uh are and it's a difficult thing to do in IT, yeah, because it's just how it works a little bit in IT. Um I think everybody, yeah, unfortunately, but he's working on that very hard, and I I I see the results are coming. We are not there yet, and I think it will take us three, four, five more years to do the right things, but that's a big thing he surprised me with too.

Vic 33:15

So, Francisco, when you know you said you had blind spots. Is that one of them then? Do you think?

Speaker 4 33:22

Yes, that's that's it's for sure one of my blind spots. So uh I never realized how important diversity was, and not only diversity between men and women, but diversity in discussions, diversity in um uh so I'm always saying what I'm thinking, but there are some other people who are not shouting out the whole time, but their ideas are better than mine. Um, so we never spent any time on uh external management trainings, uh, or well, I don't have to explain you. I think uh how important how important that is. I think the whole podcast is about that, and one of my blind spots is uh actually that I don't have the patience or the rest of to think about it or do anything with it. Um but if somebody's explaining to me, it's coming, it's it's completely clear for me that's extremely important, but it's not where my energy is. I'm more like uh let's go over it. And uh, if you're in my wagon, you're in, and if you're not, you're out. Uh, but that's not how the world uh works, and it's and and it and and I I'm convinced that it's a bad thing I'm doing. I'm I so it's but I find out that I believe in that strategy, that is a good way of creating teams, but I'm not the person who should create a structure around it. Uh so I'm a big supporter of it, uh, but uh the new CEO is doing a much, much better job in that.

Vic 34:51

I just want to pick up on what you were saying about diversity because that's one of the things that we are really passionate about at the Amplified Group, and but it's the way that you've just described diversity in the way that we think about it as well. So just to kind of reinforce the point, it's we we're looking for diversity of thought and opinion. That's that's what and we're looking for um in in the work that we do, it's about in the boardroom, it's defined as robust debate. Yeah, five behaviours, it's called conflict or productive conflict. But what that is really about is first of all, you to have that conflict, and to have that robust debate, you have to have the trust in the first place. You have to have that safe environment where you can feel like you can speak up. But as you as you just said, Francisco, you know, um I've I've certainly learned from doing these podcasts that how much I spoke, I needed to stop talking and to make sure that we won't go around the table and we ask everybody's opinion because some people are very happy to offer their opinion, but others need to be asked, and those people more likely have have even better ideas, but we need to get all the ideas on the table to start with and to have that diversity.

Sia 36:12

The diversity thing goes even further back, right? It goes back to the point that if you actually know who is in the room, then you can adapt the way you talk to them and the way they react to you. So, your point, Francisco, about the fact that you might have been hiring the same type of person as you is really typical. And I had this discussion only last week with a recruiter, and she said, Oh, yeah, I've I've just seen all of the disc profiles, which is a personality assessment that we do, and all of the people in that team are the same, they're all DIs. And I said, Oh, really? Who hired them? She said, Well, I did. I said, There's your answer. So if you can have the smart choice to say we want to hire on diversity and have a different group of people, then hey, aren't you gonna get a different perspective? And isn't that gonna be a more you know, a better way of working as a team? So this is just so powerful that you've now got to the point with your CEO that you can recognize that having diversity in the team is actually gonna help you grow further.

Speaker 2 37:20

Yes, and very interesting.

Speaker 4 37:22

Yeah, and and I mean this in a positive way, but uh you cannot change uh a team overnight because everybody in the in the team is doing a great job already. Yeah, um, so the first steps uh we are trying to do, uh especially uh the CEO, is change the mindset of the people who are already there. So we have one person, and when he's listening to the podcast, you know I'm talking about him. He's really shy, but really, really, but he has great brains. So you really have to ask him about his opinion, and then it's then it's coming, it's coming. And then you have to ask another question, and it's coming, his opinion is getting even better. But it takes some it takes some courage from everybody to to act in that way, yeah. But on the long long term, uh we have to make some decisions too in the in the in the setting of the group, because at the end of the day, uh a female between 40 and 55 is not going to change over time. Yeah, his age, but that's the only thing. Uh, and uh so we have a challenge over there too.

Sia 38:30

Yeah, and I think as long as you recognize that, and as you say, you can't just over overnight just hire a different group of people because you you know that you need diversity, you have to do that in steps. But if you just know that there is somebody in the team that is really super smart, but is not going to talk uh a speaker unless you actually prompt them to do that. I had exactly the same circumstance when I was at uh on a course at Cranfield University, and we were all D types, all very dominant types. And then I turned around and I saw this one guy, his name is Jarbolt, and I loved him. He was very quiet, and I just asked him one simple question, what do you think? And he said, Well, actually, we had not talked about the customer, and it was a light bulb moment for the whole team because we were so busy with our ideas, we'd forgotten who the customer was, and Yarbolt was the smartest person in that room. So, yeah, it's it's it it happens slowly, but you know, the fact that you recognize each other's and pull out those strengths and weaknesses is important.

Speaker 2 39:37

So, is there anything, Francisco, in retrospect that you would have done differently?

Speaker 4 39:43

Yeah, talking about the past is always easier because then you already saw it than talking about the future, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So even if I still uh trained myself not to try to sit on his chair anymore. Maybe I did a few times that I shouldn't do it, but the relation I have with Robert is so open that uh he respects that I'm doing it and the fact that I am telling him I shouldn't do it. So yeah. So what's what's interesting, what's interesting is that uh Robert he uh used to be a customer of us. So I used to yeah, so I used to work for him in uh in the early time we had ITQ. Um I was uh still active as a project manager in projects, and he was my um the president of the steering committees, and um so uh so we know each other already for about 10 10 years plus, and um so we have a lot of respect for each other and we know how to how to act. Um and when we were in the process of hiring, um we talked about this topic a lot. So, uh how are we going to have discussions with each other and how are we going to address things? And uh tomorrow, Friday, uh the end of the day, we are going to walk for about two hours in the forest, of course, with one and a half meter distance, and um we are picking discussions and not only the easy discussions, especially the uh more tough discussions, yeah. But I'm but I'm sure he respects me a lot and he knows I respect him a lot. And if you respect each other, and um then then it's easier to give feedback even when it's uh it's negative, and he has some negative feedback about me too.

Vic 41:38

Yeah, that's how you learn, isn't it?

Speaker 2 41:41

I guess that's the robust debate thing that Vicky was talking about earlier.

Speaker 4 41:46

Yeah, that's true. And I'm always making this I hold a frame that uh it doesn't matter if you're living in Amsterdam and you want to drive to uh to Rome, it doesn't matter if you pass Paris or Munich. Uh either ways you will get to Rome. And maybe it takes you a few hours longer and a little bit more gasoline, but uh the most the the dumbest thing you can do is stay in Amsterdam, discuss hours about it, and don't move. Because it doesn't matter if you take two or three hours more and a few liters of gasoline. Uh yeah, as long as you if you're going, and that's something we respect for each other too. So he's sometimes he's doing things I would do different, but I don't talk about it because I think it doesn't matter left or right. The funny thing is a lot of times he the decisions he's making are more efficient than the than I would do it. But you but you but you never know that before you start.

Speaker 2 42:39

So yeah, very interesting. It's an interesting dynamic because I guess in the context of the day-to-day business, effectively he is your boss, but in the overall context, you are his boss because the CEO is responsible to the shareholders, and you are yeah, but we have a very easy model for that.

Speaker 4 43:01

So the model is that uh the board are the shareholders, and uh he has some shares too.

Speaker 2 43:08

Of course, uh yeah.

Speaker 4 43:11

And we have about three times a year a discussion, and that's it. Yeah, and if we're leaving the room, he's the boss again.

Speaker 2 43:19

Yeah.

Speaker 4 43:20

Um and that's easy. If I want to uh change the direction, if I want to give my opinion, uh if I want to uh I have to do it in that in that meeting with uh three three opportunities in trouble, period, to do that.

Speaker 2 43:33

And uh yeah, yes. That's interesting, that makes sense.

Speaker 4 43:36

And I always make jokes about my ego, uh, because it's easy to make jokes about things that are not really true. Uh so I always uh make jokes about it. My ego is too big uh to have conversations and that kind of jokes. But uh to be honest, I my ego is very, very small. And um I uh and it's not that ITQ is uh Francisco, ITQ is the company, all the people who are in there, and they the the company is much much much more important than I am so my dream is that if if I retire in 2025 years the company is still there and I don't have any shares anymore. That's my dream. So I have to step step out of the discussion that I uh I think I'm the boss. I'm not.

Speaker 2 44:16

Yeah. Sha you wanted to make an observation about Patrick's recent book.

Sia 44:22

Yeah so Patrick's written Patrick Lencioni um he's written 12 books now but this one is become a bestseller already and it's a he's a really great book and it's called The Motive and it was so coincidental that I read this book actually about two weeks after we'd had this conversation with Francisco in that we were going to do this podcast. And the the two things that I think is really important and Francisco this is definitely the thread throughout what you've talked about is he says there are two types of leaders and you have to have the right motive. One of them is that it's a reward and the other it's a responsibility and what he meant by that is that if you think that being the CEO is a reward for all the hard work you've done that's not the right motive to be the leader. So what Francisco has done he's he became the CEO as a natural progression but has obviously looked and thought no I just want a responsibility to make this company good. And overall see being CEO is maybe not the right thing but I'm still responsible and I want to continue helping this company grow. So you're basically the the absolute best practice Francisco for this book. And if you read the book it's a great book it's short it's as usual written as a fable but the lessons at the back of it I recommend highly anybody that is in a similar position to Francisco and is thinking do you know what I might not be the best person to lead this company but I've just got so much still to give read the book because it's fantastic.

Speaker 2 46:07

It's really great seems like a good point maybe to ask Francisco for you to give us a little summary maybe a top tips for anybody who finds themselves in in your position and there will be more people in that position than probably realize that they are in that position.

Speaker 4 46:27

So I have a family and um three daughters and actually I have a great life I came from a neighborhood where there was nothing I'm living in this beautiful house near the coast and um I think I realized that because I'm always thinking about what's really important for me and I don't give anything about job titles or money. I want to wake up five o'clock in the morning I want to go to work and I want to have a lot of fun and energy so I think my big tip will be try to find where your energy is and the other thing is that um I always have the feeling that a lot of people don't trust each other and always think there's politics behind discussions and uh social status and how you pull that kind of things but I think the most people in this world are very good people and they are really uh having the same drive I have and um and and that was that's the discussion with uh CEO or not it doesn't matter what your position is in organization as long as you all have the same feeling and the same um uh way you want to go and the same the uh same goal i will I I always try to explain to people in the in the management in the team and in the at ITQ we want to we want to sail to an island and that that's where we want to be in three to five years and uh let's try to paint that picture to each other how does that look like and then everybody's trying to find discussions why it's difficult to reach but I say no let's let's make the picture and the wind will tell us how fast we will go there but it it doesn't matter as long as we know what island we want to sail to we will reach it at the end.

Speaker 2 48:12

As as long as you're moving the important thing is to get moving.

Vic 48:15

Yeah yeah speed is new currency yeah so yeah you have to keep the speed up yeah makes sense can I just ask um one more question if you were to give any advice to CEOs how to recognize that they should change position.

Speaker 4 48:37

But I think they're already knowing that's the whole point. So you wake up in the morning and you're brushing your teeth and you're looking through the mirror and then you're already knowing am I doing the right things or not otherwise you will never be in that position. And we have this society that the captain is interesting and how lower you go how less interesting you are as a person but I don't believe in that. If you look to my my social group the people I really love to do nice things with they they have all kinds of jobs and but the reason I like them is because they're all doing what they love. And I think that's extremely important and I'm I'm convinced that um the CEOs who are on the in the position and they don't want to be there they already know it. But the social pressure and the discussion with your wife or with your your partner is something that's uh holding you down of making this kind of discussions but I'm in a way a lucky person because um my partner is a really uh sensible or uh smart person who you can have uh discussions with uh on this level but it's not saying then a week after yeah you don't want to be a CEO it's like he's not sticking a knife in my back maybe that's a better way to explain it. And that's the same with my management team and the same with all the people from ITQ. You can have decent proper conversations about this kind of topics without uh being attacked the day after. And I'm not sure if that's in every organization the same. But it's still yeah so that's the luck I have uh in this but I I I think if you're every CEO or every manager or every person in an organization already knows if if he's on the right place or not.

Speaker 2 50:34

So Shaw, I think we better do hero time.

Sia 50:37

Yeah so I'm gonna explain what hero time is in a sec. But first of all I'm going to ask you all to indulge me in a little story because it's um it came up this morning. So my husband who works for a company called Dotto he had an email in his inbox and it said there is such a thing as a free lunch right and in these times when we're all you know having to work remotely and and having to deal with all this this is just a great example of somebody who was a former CEO at his company and is now no longer the CEO but very much involved in the discussions with the CEO. And they said we usually give away a free lunch to our staff on a Friday. Every Friday they go into the office and they have a free lunch but we can't do that anymore. So how can we make them feel like they're still having their free lunch on a Friday so they've agreed between them that they are going to send every single employee across the world a voucher and they're all going to order lunch at the same time and they're going to sit together and have lunch with their families in front of the camera and I think that's an awesome thing because that that is exactly the same position. He's no longer the CEO he's handed over the reins but he's happy to do this out of his own pocket. This is not coming out of the company pocket. But they had that discussion and said you know what can we do to keep the culture going back to what ITQ do you know it's all about the culture of the company and you know he he was so impressed he had to come and show me that email and say hey we've got a free lunch tomorrow. So I just wanted to share that with you because I thought it was great.

Speaker 2 52:16

You know the taking care of the people exactly deliberately let's talk about hero.

Sia 52:25

So um the reason we do hero time is we um it's not about making us the hero it's about um you talking about your hero somebody in the past that maybe has motivated you or inspired you and I think we all have that person inside us even if it was a school teacher you know somebody that that helped us along the way or you know helped us to learn a language so with that I just thought it would be really nice to understand from you who you think maybe fits into that category for you.

Speaker 4 52:57

Yeah I I have someone he he doesn't know he is my hero but so I I dropped out of school when I was 16 and um that was about the time I was thinking if I will continue this life and journey I will end somewhere in a factory doing things I don't want to do. So I made a decision to go to a school it's a it it was an IT uh um training for a year and it was like 40 hours a week no vacation and it was private uh owned so it was pretty expensive uh for me in that time uh but I made a decision to try it but I found out that um the the the the the the the papers you need to go into the school and uh I was not really fitting that so I made some lies about it I'm not sure if I can still lose my uh papers but uh in that time it was still possible and uh we're we're we're probably part of the statute of limitations on that I think that is but I was accepted and um after a year very hard studying I uh I passed all the exams but but then there was this issue but there was the whole time this guy guy on the school his name is uh Direk and um he was organizing internships for everybody or try to find jobs and that he was just doing that so he was calling me and telling well he was calling me on on the normal phone at that time just like a land phone Francisco let's uh I have this job opportunity for you in a place called Haalem and they're looking for somebody and they want to invest in it and I think you're the right person. So I he sent me there and I was doing this job for a year. And then one day he was in in the front of my house and I was still living with my parents and he was saying Francisco uh you have a few minutes for me and yeah of course Derek and thanks for the time and he was telling me that one of the companies I was a customer of the company I was working for was telling about me to him that Francisco is a very special guy a nice person he's doing a great job but his attitude is completely wrong. His face is always looking like he's going to war it's like he's doing a good job but it's it's it's it's he never smiles and uh these people told uh Direk about this and Dirk was coming to my house to tell me this and so I told him what do you think I should do about it because that's not the way I want to go into my career and he gave me this book from a guy called uh Dill Carnegie and his book was uh was uh published in uh 1935 or something yeah of course I know the one I know the one yeah how you make friends and good relations or something like that how how to win friends and influence people yes but I didn't read any English so I I I I re I I read it in that time and I it cost me a lot of a lot of energy um uh but I learned a lot from the book about why smiling is important why why it's important we respect everybody and what I learned from uh from uh uh from Dill Carnegie is um the I'm not sure it's the responsible assumption or something he has this theory about if you want to change somebody else you have to start with yourself uh and uh then you have to give this good example and uh if you give this good example people will follow you and uh the reason Derek is my hero because uh he has the courage to uh come from another town to my house to tell me a story that somebody else is telling him that I was well I had to do something about my uh behavior so I think you need courage for that uh he used to be somebody from school teacher something he does he doesn't have any relation with me or so the reason he's my hero is because he just jumped in the car went to my house gave me this this book without any reason and I didn't see him for like 15 15 years or something and a few months ago I was walking in the forest he was passing by the bicycle and hey Derek how are you and we had a conversation and it was the first time I say thank you to him for uh for changing changing my uh my way of of of behavior and uh so that's the reason Direk is my hero because he introduced me to Dil Carnegie and uh I read all his books.

Sia 57:36

Fantastic and what's Derek's full name because you've got to give him full credit.

Speaker 2 57:40

Direk Foscon that's fantastic thank you that's that's really funny because I mean the whole Del Carnegie thing I think you know it's gone by the wayside it's a bit out of fashion these days. I mean I imagine it was must have been one of the first kind of business self-help books way back when and I I was given a copy of that book. Okay probably in my mid teens I suppose just just I I don't remember exactly when and like you know I credit that book with helping me a lot with my business career and changing the attitude and it might be a little old fashioned these days but there's definitely so much value still in that. Yeah Francisco that was absolutely brilliant thank you so much really amazing thank you thank you so it just remains for me to say thank you for listening to get amplified from the amplified group if you liked it please give us a review and be sure to subscribe and we'll see you next time