Purpose Driven Leadership - Duncan Greenwood VP& MD NEMEA, VMWare

Duncan joins Sam and Vic to share how he stays true to himself and why he is a purpose driven leader but we don't just cover this. Duncan takes leadership to another level, he talks passionately about the importance of diversity, equality and inclusion and shares why intrinsic motivation is so critical to his team.

We also hear first hand  the big hairy audacious goals he has set himself, having recently joined the board of techUK. Prepare to be inspired, we certainly were!!

Here is the link for the video Duncan refers to from Dan Pink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
 

We would love you to follow us on LinkedIn! 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Speaker 2 0:10

Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders who want to help their companies execute faster. As always, we're virtual. I'm back home in Bucks. Vicky's over in Deep darkest Oxfordshire. But Vicky, we have a fairly local guest today. Would you mind introducing him for us, please?

Vic 0:29

Great, thank you. Yes, we do. I'm delighted to say that we have Duncan Greenwood with us today. So I was very fortunate to work with Duncan briefly before I left VMware. And actually, I'd asked Duncan to be my mentor. And following Duncan on LinkedIn at the back end of last year, Duncan has done some incredible work around pledges that he's going to share with us. And it was absolutely inspirational. Now, the topic that we're going to talk about today is staying true to yourself. And I can't imagine anybody better to put us right on that topic. So handing it over to you again, Sam.

Speaker 2 1:08

Brilliant. Thanks for that. So I've also known Duncan a little while. I remember us having dinner. I hope I'm right in saying this. I remember us having dinner somewhere, possibly Italy. I think it's Barcelona, Sam. Was it Barcelona? Barcelona. Barcelona. And at the time I was living up in Walshaw near Bury in Lancashire, having moved up there from roughly speaking, Marlowe in Buckinghamshire, where I am now. And if I recall rightly, Duncan, you were born in Walshaw and then moved from Walshaw to Marlowe.

Speaker 1 1:43

Yeah, yeah, it's you're very, very close. I was actually born, um, I was born in Manchester, sort of raised in Burnley, but the the connection to Walshaw just outside of Bury was uh I I lived there uh for about four years. And uh yeah, I I it was the last house I lived in in the north of England before I moved south and uh followed, you know, followed my career into technology.

Speaker 2 2:08

Fantastic. I I knew there was some sort of connection like this.

Speaker 1 2:11

It's a wonderful village with a great Italian restaurant. That's what I remember about it.

Speaker 2 2:16

Yeah, no, there's there is a half-decent Italian there, actually. Yeah, it's not too bad. Not too bad.

Vic 2:21

Am I allowed to say as well, I am incredibly proud of my northern roots as well. So it's no wonder we get on Duncan.

Speaker 2 2:28

Fair enough. You are you are permitted to make that observation. So, Duncan, you better start if you don't mind. We always say this by giving something of a of a potted history of your illustrious tech career, please, if you don't mind.

Speaker 1 2:40

Yeah, no, absolutely, uh Sam. So, yeah, I mean my career, I I'd like to say was only 20 years in the making. Unfortunately, I think I'm into my uh uh 30 oh my 30th year of uh of actually fully working. And uh prior to getting into the tech industry, uh just around sort of 99, 2000, I'd worked in financial services. But over my career in tech, um, you know, I've had the privilege of working for some great companies. The ones that you know really stand out are Business Objects, which um led the way in you know analytics back in the early 2000s prior to the the acquisition from SAP. I worked for an interesting startup company because of course I wanted to go and do that that type of experience um just after business objects. Um I ran McAfee in the UK for about three years, got a really good understanding of enterprise security and how governance, risk, compliance, and the threat landscape was developing for the UK market. And then I ran Global Accounts at uh Computer Associates for three years um before um I joined VMware uh in 2000 uh 2015. And and really at VMware I've had three roles and uh you know, across those those roles, I've managed the cloud business, I've managed the digital workspace business, and today I lead our business across all of northern Europe, which is the UK, uh, Belgium, uh, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, and then the uh Scandinavian countries. Really quite a uh quite a run then. Yeah, Sam. I think when you look at it, the you know, the great thing is that you start off in what I'd call the enterprise software business, and you know, and that was quite a big change moving from financial services into technology. But you know, right at the heart of everything that you know interests me about technology, because of course I do come to it with the approach of business application as opposed to technology itself, not being a technologist, yeah, is you know, what is that technology going to do? What is the purpose of it? What is the application of it? You know, how do the customers deploy it and get value from it? And you know, the great thing I I think in that experience I had, particularly early on with with business objects as a company, it was growing quite quickly, it was all around the solution. And the so when you describe solution to me, it's about okay, we know we've got a problem or an opportunity. How do we apply technology against that particular business issue? You know, and I've never lost that philosophy from whatever I'm doing with the teams that I'm leading or the other businesses that I'm involved in. But yeah, a great run. Started off with a with a great company. Um, and I have to say it's been a fantastic, you know, period here at uh at VMware too.

Speaker 2 5:37

Brilliant. Great stuff, and and many more years ahead of you, I'm sure. I hope so. Good mad, good mad, nice one. So we hear and we talk a lot, I suppose, on the podcast on Get Amplified about the importance of being authentic and being true to yourself. It seems that that's something that's very important to you. Could you give us tell us a little bit about what that means to you?

Speaker 1 6:01

Yeah, I think you know, it's quite an interesting conversation. I, you know, as I took my first steps into sales management and management as a whole, um, which I did do at Business Objects, I I knew how to sell. What I didn't know was how to lead. And I thought that I guess originally you you take a job on as a you know, as a manager inside of a company, and that leadership is something that you evolve over time. And I guess really, Sam, the interesting thing that I discovered was that over a couple of years, you know, I struggled a little bit with the dilemma of what the business needed to do and sometimes how I had to manage people. And so started to look at a couple of things that were important to me, which led to really, you know, what I'd call five core values that I that I operate against. And um, you know, when you look at those values, which I don't mind sharing with you, which are to create a legacy, meaning that every time I take a role, my intention is to move things forward to make it better than when I found it. And I do that across a couple of areas. First and foremost, it is about the people that I'm leading and do I coach, develop, and help them move forward in their, you know, in their lives and their careers. Do we do that for our you know, for our customers? You so the application of that technology, is it really going to drive value? Just on that, it's a slight sort of deviation. But the interesting thing that everybody talks to me about in the new world of SaaS and subscription is consumption. Um I don't think that's a new concept, right? If your customers don't get use your your technology and get value out of it, then they don't consume anymore. Whether the you know, whether the mechanism of of consumption is SaaS or whether it's you know, I'm deploying this on-prem application or data center. So we talked about shelfware, didn't we?

Speaker 2 7:59

I was just gonna say precisely, yeah, where uh you know big manufacturers would stuff a contract full of software that nobody actually used it would end up being shelfware.

Speaker 1 8:09

Yeah, and and that goes back to that sort of value piece, which is you know, are we creating values? And my value, as I said, was to make sure the customers got value out of it and that the ecosystem that we operate with, you know, and you know, my relationships with your previous employer, and and you know, my focus is how do we create mutually rewarding relationships from the alliances and the partnerships that we develop? So that's the leggy legacy uh element. The second uh important element is integrity. Uh, you know, and the interesting thing about integrity, it's not just about being honest, it's sometimes about having to have those difficult and crucial conversations, both in the business, with your customers, with your your key relationships, to you know, to deal with issues. That the great thing about being in a fast-paced, innovative world is there's always opportunity, but there's always compromise and uh difficult decisions to be made. So as long as they're made with integrity, I've generally found that as a leadership principle, people are okay with it. They're not always going to love it, but they're okay with it as long as they can follow the North Star, the greater purpose. And that leads me to then, you know, being committed. I think if you do things half-heartedly, um, then that shows very quickly, and it and it's inauthentic in itself. You'll very quickly know that you're not being true to yourself. So commitment I see you know as incredibly important, whether it's to a project, whether it's to a customer, a partner, to your team, to your people, you you know, that commitment is a is something that's an absolute. And that follows very quickly then by passion. And the way I describe this is that um, you know, I always sort of there's a little bit of a what I call an acid test that I sort of ask people to do. And I've done a couple of roles that have been what I would say transformational. And I've said to people, listen, you know, we we're going to go through a time which is pretty difficult right now. Change, big change, um, transformation. And if you if you bear that in mind, there's just one thing I need you to think about is that if you get to your morning commute, which invariably today is just to walk down the stairs or to walk from the kitchen to a different room, but you know, think about either getting in your car, on a plane, on a train, whatever it is that you your commute, and you sigh three times a week in a row, you're probably not feeling the passion or the commitment. And it might be time for a change. But if you don't do that and you can remain passionate about the cause that you're driving, then you're true to yourself. And then the final thing, and I don't mind exposing this. An old boss of mine once said to me, He said, You know, Duncan, he said, we love the way that you operate, we love the customer and partner intimacy. He said, But my lord, you're serious. He said, You know, what's it like to have a little bit of fun? What do you do for fun? And I was, I was, I couldn't believe it. I can't myself as one of the most gregarious and jovial people, you know, around.

Speaker 2 11:09

And uh so you know, in in our interactions, I've never thought of you as particularly serious. I mean, you've never been anything less than professional, of course, but doesn't mean we haven't had a a bit of a giggle.

Speaker 1 11:21

No, of course, and and that, but in all fairness, Sam, that piece of feedback was probably a little while before I met you. So of course, I think with the you know, the one piece I would say is that I, you know, so I took four values, made it five, and not only did I make it five, but I made the values a whole load of fun as well. So, you know, the point about that is that it you're right, you know, it you've got to be true to yourself. There are times there are serious subjects and we need to be serious, but the point is that you need to have some fun in what you're doing, and that's one of the other things I would say about this fantastic industry that it affords us, it does afford us the opportunity to do a lot of different things, to go out and do some great projects, great innovation. But yeah, let's have some fun, whether we, you know, whether it's delivering a big transformation in our customers or whether it's you know doing something with societal impact. We we've got to do it and with a smile on our face and do it because we're enjoying it.

Vic 12:15

Yeah, we spend so much time of our life, don't we, at work? You've got to enjoy what you do and and have passion for it. I freaking love what I do now. And I think that that comes over. But I just want you to pick up on something, Duncan. You to when you were talking about integrity and having those difficult conversations, I think one of the things that really drew me to you um to ask you to be my mentor was you're straight talking. And that's so refreshing because so many people that you would they don't want to have those difficult conversations. And if you don't have difficult conversations, how on earth do you learn and get better? And and I I'm quite happy to say I've I've just asked Colin actually to be my um almost my broad advisor at the Amplified Group because he will ask me difficult questions, and through those difficult questions, I learn. And that's all how we all grow, isn't it?

Speaker 1 13:12

Absolutely. I it is interesting. I was having a conversation last night with somebody, and they thought it was their time to pitch to me for their next role. And the the question was, can I get some advice? And I said, Do you want advice or do you want me to ask you some questions? And you figure out the the answer yourself because honestly, I can't. This is a career decision, that's personal. I I can't make that decision for you, you know. The decision and and it was one of what I'd call a crucial conversation. I asked three questions, and you know, I to be fair, that you know, the individual straight back with me and said, I don't think I can answer those questions. And I said, I don't think you can make that career decision at the moment, then without answering those questions.

Vic 13:54

Okay.

Speaker 1 13:55

Um, the the point about that, Vicky, is I would say that you know, my leadership principles are based around purpose-driven leadership. And that idea of being true to yourself is is built around trust. You know, I trust, if I'm honest with myself, if I operate to a level of integrity when I know that either I've got something wrong and I'm willing to put my hand up and say, listen, I made a mistake here. You know, the the vulnerability of leaders is also the strength of leadership, right? And and the point about that being true to yourself is to is to sometimes to have those difficult conversations. There at times, particularly in you know, in the roles I've had, is generally there is a corporate responsibility. You've got to be able to see the bigger picture. Uh, and when you're having difficult conversations, whether it's about organizational change or structure, because you've got to move quickly either to a market opportunity, uh, which is a you know is is an offensive mood, and you know, you're going on the offense as opposed to a defensive move, which is usually in times of survival, no matter what, I think you've got to act with transparency, you've got to act with consistency. And there's a lot of work done around what I call the trust equation. And when you look at that, it is you know, saying what you're going to do and doing what you, you know, what you said, and and part of that is, you know, I try and live to that. And by the way, I'll be the first to admit I don't get it right every time. And accepting and accepting you get it wrong.

Vic 15:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that sets the tone for everybody else, then, doesn't it? I hope so.

Speaker 2 15:41

Um, so Dunky, you're the diversity and inclusion lead for VMware in EMIA. What does that mean? Obviously, that must be something that you're really passionate about. Uh, what are you doing there?

Speaker 1 15:52

Sam, you know, that's so this is, you know, it's an equal passion to my business leadership. Um, you know, I can I come to this subject um, you know, around these principles. Uh, you know, I'm I'm privileged in a number of ways, and I and I understand that privilege. First of all, you know, I'm male, so from a gender point of view, I have certain privileges afforded to me that that I um you know still working to fully understand. Um, not only that, but I'm a white male, right? And um, you know, that gives me another set of privileges. One of the things I would say that, you know, comes from a you know a background, and I'm you know, I'm the first to admit I had a I had the perfect upbringing. I had two parents who loved me and my sister dearly, did the best buyers in every single which way uh you know they could. Um, you know, we weren't wealthy in the tense of money, but we were wealthy in the sense that we were loved and cared for and completely secure. And I think that's afforded me the other privilege, which is you know, I had a very grounded upbringing in the sense my my mum operated to her own sort of principles, which were treat everybody fairly and expect to be fairly treated. And when I look at diversity, equity, and inclusion, those principles run right through this subject area. And what I understood many years ago in the sort of world of work is that I saw a very differentiated attitude to first of all to my to my uh to my women colleagues. And I and I didn't like it, and I didn't think it was fair, and I, you know, and I said to myself, I've got to find a way to do something about it. Um, and of course, as the there has become more a focus on this, because actually the outcome for any business or any society is that it is a better, faster improving, more wholesome uh generating um you know community by being fair and equitable, then you know, it was only right that I also have a position of privilege that I that I can that I can use within a company like VMware to try and make a difference. And and I guess, Sam, to answer the question, it is about going back to that principle of how do I make this better so that when I leave, you know, we've we've we've improved the position from what I found to the position um it can be in the future. So I've been in the role for three years with VMware. I lead the strategy for it, uh for diversity, equity, and inclusion across Europe, Middle East, and Africa. Um, you know, and and every day is a school day, Sam. You know, I learned so much. You know, I learned so much. You know, you you know, there are difficult subjects in some of these regions that you know that, you know, where either certain things are illegal or it's just unacceptable, you can face yourself in prison or in serious trouble. Therefore, you know, you've got to be really focused on where you can have the biggest impact and make a difference. Um, and again, you realize that in you know, in in Western democracies, you you're you are again very privileged to the freedom of speech and freedom of uh of act. And I think you know, we've just got to be uh clear that uh what we're working towards is something that is for the greater good uh and is just about treating people in a way that you would expect to be treated.

Vic 19:33

From my perspective as a as a woman, and I was you know one of the first uh uh women European leaders in VMware, I really struggled with this topic. And actually, we we recorded a podcast earlier this year called Um Kind Girls Can Get the Corner Office. And we said on there, it's a topic that we've shied away from previously, and that's because I never felt as a woman that I was ever held back. In fact, I turned down opportunities because I what is it called, imposter syndrome. So I was I was asked to do bigger jobs and turn them down. And I was approached last year by the Oxford School of Drama or two um drama teachers there, and they've come to us saying, Would we want to build a course around providing women with confidence and presence but still remaining gentle? Because I've I've had some terrifying women leaders in the past that have really scared me because they've they've had they've felt like they've needed to be too aggressive. Um and so they've they've developed a course and we we haven't done anything with it yet because we're just trying to find out whether that whether there is interest in it, in fact. It's about being able to come into a room and have a presence and make your make your point without having to be aggressive about it. And I think I think that's possible. You know, just a really funny story, and we might take this out. But when I uh when I was promoted to director at Citrix, the HR lady uh took me uh to one side and she sat me down because I was gonna be working with the engineering teams and she said, Vicki, you need to power dress and she said, if you're gonna get the attention of this team, you really need you need a bright scarf, you need a big I I couldn't believe this conversation. And I was sat there thinking, I really hope that they're gonna take notice of me because of what's gonna come out of my mouth. It's always stuck with me. It just I just couldn't, I thought, do I need to pinch myself? What is this? I wasn't planning to talk about this, by the way.

Speaker 2 21:32

It just is what you've done today a power hairbrush then in Duncan's. Oh cheeky.

Speaker 1 21:38

Yeah, well, we can't comment on that. No, we can't.

Speaker 2 21:42

Yeah, maybe maybe it may be a power head polish.

Speaker 1 21:45

Well, we were talking about privilege a minute ago, and that's Vicky's privilege to put it over the pair of I'm very happy not I'm very happy not to have hair. It's one less thing to worry about, it would just be hassle. But I think you know, Vicky, you raise a really good point. I you know. I again I'm I'm lucky to have worked. I've had three very, very positive experiences of women bosses. And, you know, someone say I worked in partnership with uh a very strong, you know, female leader over my career. And, you know, I I benefited immensely from that. You know, my observation overall to your point is that we need to be better at actually um structuring what I would call the development sponsorship and coaching of women into the workplace as a as a critical factor, but not just women. I think it goes across many different minority groups as well that that struggle to have the have the voice. And to your point, it's it's about that imposter syndrome. It's you know, have you got you know, have you have you got the right? Well, yes, you have, just by virtue of the fact that you're there, you have the right to to have the voice, to actually have your input to but to also benefit from you know the the coaching, the development that you and the sponsorship that that you need. Um and then you know the the the sort of the male population needs to just be uh better at seeking to understand. And I think that once you seek to understand, you create empathy overall. And empathy is the is the key factor here, it makes a very human aspect. It doesn't mean that your operational or strategic thinking has to be, you know, uh, you know, bang on the money, you have to be able to do all of that as well. But I I think this world is changing and hopefully for the better to get to a better understanding.

Vic 23:44

Yeah, I think so. But I think I also felt like I needed to my understanding of it because I never had any challenges in I almost privilege Duncan in that um I turned down was because I wouldn't move to the US. Um, and I I was asked to do a video for VMware and be part of that video, and the only thing that I could bring myself to say on there was it's about the right person in the right job, and that to me is is is what it's about. But I think over this really last two years, I've really started to realise I am absolutely in the minority in what my experience was. And so, whatever we can do to help set that example and that role model, particularly down into schools as well, that's that's my big thing.

Speaker 1 24:34

Yeah, I mean, you get onto a real big subject of mine for the tech industry, which is, you know, we we are running into a bit of a dilemma in in the enterprise technology world, which is that there aren't enough skills to satisfy the jobs, right? So the interesting thing when I look back, uh you know, if you think about the the element of fun, the element of opportunity and experience, right? This this industry is only sort of 65 years old. That's quite still quite a new industry. It's going through another iteration as we move more and more to the cloud, as we see more and more around modern applications and the application economies um, you know, that are getting created. The reality is that there is no better industry to be joining, right? I don't see any other industry growing at a pace that uh as much as tech is, yet we're still not attractive as an industry, you know, unless you are a geek, right? Well, you know, let me just give the context here. Yeah, Sam puts his hand up, right? Somebody loves the technology. You know, let me let me just really, really sort of boil this down. You know, I got into tech because I love the application of technology. I am the least geeky person on the planet, you know. I have upset more relatives than you care to mention when they say this doesn't work, that doesn't work, how do I fix it? And I say, I have no idea. Right? You know, I have absolutely no idea. And I think the other thing that I would would would stress here, which is, you know, again, from a slight vulnerability imposter syndrome basis, although anybody who knows me would think that there's no way he suffers from imposter syndrome. But you know, I left school at 15 with no formal qualifications in this industry. That's highly unusual still. Yeah, that's highly unusual. Yet, you know, I have the privilege today of a business that is, you know, greater than a billion dollars with 1,100 people in my organization. Uh, you know, I I feel that I've driven my opportunity, but I also accept that I'm probably, you know, the exception to the rule. We have to be far more balanced in our industry to accept that actually the innovation will come from all over. You don't need to have qualified with STEM subjects. It's going to be helpful, and we need to be more, we need to develop more around that, but it's not an absolute, and we need to be more open-minded around how we uh attract people into our industry because it's a lot of fun, it pays pretty well compared to other industries, and it affords you the opportunity to do something unique, which is generally you're in a great position to give something back to the community or to society that I again I don't see as strong in other industries. I, you know, I've still got a lot of friends in financial services, and they're amazed at how much time we devote to service learning and giving back in our industry. If you're somebody like SoftCat, who've opened up their, you know, their premises to be a vaccination center, to you know, to deliver something back to the communities is an immense, you know, it is an immense privilege. And I think that's what I love about it is that generally um we can give something back uh you know to the community as well as to the fact that we can develop our and grow our businesses too. Makes sense, makes sense.

Speaker 2 28:09

So after we've uh finished with you, Don't gonna let you go about your day. We're recording a podcast with the team at Beacon Sports who help organizations and individuals track intrinsic motivation. Is that something that's important to you? How have you helped your team get on that path? I've always thought it is it hard to motivate to give somebody motivation. Can you can we just challenge it or can we imbue them with it?

Speaker 1 28:35

It's a great question, Sam, and and and and a bit of a dilemma, right? I mean, I you know, there are I've done a lot around this particular subject because I think my own motivation and drive, as I've said, is is purpose-driven now. You know, I talk about the the fact that I'm a purpose-driven leader, leading as much through influence and in and creating high performance teams, which are all driven by that set of personal values, that that's that's intrinsic motivation. Um, you know, but I'm I'm I'm not afraid to tell you that I started my career in sales because I wanted to earn money. And whether you look at the you know, the base needs of, you know, whether it's to being able to eat, being able to, you know, put some clothes on your back, put a roof over your head, you know, that changes over time. What really drives you is where you have the impact. And that happens all over uh all over the place. And I'll I'll give you an example. You know, the role I have today, uh I've been in for just over two and a half years. Coming into the role, I was taking over what was a fairly successful business, but absolutely the opposite of everything else I've ever done in my career. You know, I'm I'm I'm known for transformation. And so I wanted to look at what the motivation and the purpose of the region that I run was. And we created that, and it operates around some you know, guiding principles. First of all, you know, it's about realizing what's possible. Secondly, it's about being able to be driven by a growth mindset. So, you know, if we're in the world of innovation, let's not, you know, do it as the book says. Let's make sure that we we innovate and we use that growth mindset to continue that level of innovation. And then there are three guiding, three, three other principles that that form really what we do as the third part of our operating system, which is is it good for our people? So does it help our people grow? Is it good for the business and you know what we're trying to do from a company and a customer and a partner perspective? And the third thing is, is it good for what we do in our communities and society? Does it have a societal impact? That's given the intrinsic, that's the intrinsic motivation. So whether you hang your hat on the business outcome, the customer or the partner outcome or the societal impact, the great thing that you're working towards is realizing what's possible in any one of those areas. And that means that what we find is that you know, we have people who are driven by, you know, achieving great targets in in the business. We have people who are driven by having a very demonstrable impact either in their customers and their partners, or people who are driven by that demonstrable impact in into society. And I think when you look at that, um, you know, I always remember Dan Pink's book, Drive, and and there's a great video I would suggest that people look at. You know, there's a point where money stops being your motivation. The the basic principles of needing to eat, needing to protect yourselves, needing a roof over your head, they stop and it becomes about how do you make a difference. And that's where I find that the intrinsic motivation is where you get the greatest impact and the greatest result.

Vic 32:01

Yeah. God, I can I can really relate to that.

Speaker 2 32:04

Your purpose and mine was to make the Americans' lives difficult.

Vic 32:09

Oh, it was. It absolutely was. So, Duncan, why Sam and I know each other so well and is because at PAC we would work together to make sure that because the Americans would listen to Sam and not me.

Speaker 2 32:21

Because I'm the I I guess I was the customer, the customer, effectively.

Speaker 1 32:25

That's quite interesting. That's where I've I've learned this leadership through influence. Um you know, I think often you're in a role where you think you're gonna be listened to, that people are gonna care for your opinion, and invariably they do, but on a certain set of subjects, not always the things that you know, you're not always known for some of the things that you might think about either strategically or even tactically that that aren't within the domain of the role you do. Therefore, how do you influence the people you need to influence? And uh, you know, a lot of that is trying to understand the network, and it and quite often it's it's misguided because people think it's politics. It's not politics, it's just some people are more receptive to ideas through different channels. Yeah, and and you've got to influence the the various channels, you've got to be able to understand what those channels look like. So, yeah, leading through influence is is is critically important, I believe, in being able to you know put your idea across. And then you also have to drop the ego a little bit because what sometimes happens is that the idea gets picked up, it gets run with, and then the next thing you know, you're in a room and somebody says, Hey, we've got this great idea, and they feed back to you something you've been doing for the last three years.

Vic 33:45

Yeah, yeah. I call that the boomerang effect, and I loved it.

Speaker 1 33:49

Yeah, but it it's for a lot of people, it it you know, they misconstrue that as an insult. It's not, it's probably the compliment you might be having in your career.

Vic 34:00

Yeah, yeah, totally agree, totally agree. Yeah.

Speaker 2 34:05

So let's talk a bit about giving back, then Duncan. Community and society is clearly an important part of why you exist, I suppose. I'll go that far. Um, perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about your pledges and what that's meant to you. This has been an initiative that has been over the last little while.

Speaker 1 34:23

Sam, I can tell you I'm immensely proud of it, but boy, that was a lot more hard work than anyone would even think it was. And I think what we looked at, um, you know, I said to the team, listen, I want to do something a little different. I'm, you know, I am committed to making a difference. You know, the pandemic had opened my eyes to a couple of a couple of challenges. You know, I'd become definitely a lot more appreciative of the world around me and and perhaps some more simpler things. What started it off, we came across somebody who I have um you know some huge admiration for, a guy called Mark Pollock, who was, you know, had been through a real traumatic time in his life, but was committed to running uh and and has established this run in the dark principle because he's blind. And so people can start to empathize, and that really resonated with me. And you know, I've talked about empathy a little bit earlier, and I couldn't empathize with some other areas, and that's how the pledges started. I talked about sort of 12 things that mattered that felt that they mattered to me, but I couldn't truly empathize. And those that's what those pledges are about, Sam. That's me getting to understand what it's like, you know, to be running in the dark, therefore I'm blind, to understand what it's like to live with, you know, cardio arrhythmie. I'll probably want to pronounce that right, but that you know, you think about some of these challenges, you know, and then when you look at the world and and and what is going on, ecological impact, which is important to my children, and hence they got involved in me around a couple of the pledges that were important to them. That how do we, you know, how do we recycle, how do we use the car less? What is it that that that matters to them? So the pledges were all about how do we make small changes in our day-to-day life that that go on and and make a difference and have an impact. And that's really where that came back, uh, you know, that came from. And you know, I'm pleased to say out of the 12, we're maintaining all of them so much so that at the moment, uh, tracking my steps and how much walking I do, Sam, I can tell you that if if we'd started from then to where I am today, I have walked from um from Marlowe all the way through France down through southern Spain. I had to hop on a ferry, and so and so far I'm halfway across Algeria. So um, you know, I mean that's that's not very COVID-safe, though, is it now? No, but thankfully it's a virtual walk time like everything. I mean, real walking steps, but virtual distances.

Vic 37:00

So uh yeah.

Speaker 1 37:02

So, you know, it the great thing about looking at some of these things, I've started things that have now become habits in my life. You know, if we need something from the shop, rarely do we jump in the car. Um, it becomes part of the 10,000 steps a day challenge. Fantastic.

Speaker 2 37:17

That's really good. And I'm also informed that you've recently joined the board of Tech UK.

Speaker 1 37:23

Yeah, I mean, you so really, really proud um to have had a relationship with Tech UK and what was Intellect before it was Tech UK over the years. And you know, it reunites me with an old colleague of mine, um, you know, uh, and really with the opportunity to to go on and try and make a difference longer term around the tech industry in this country. I think there's two things that matter a lot to me, uh, and these are my guiding principles into in this role. First one is uh what I call the digital divide and and and trying to bridge that. You know, I'm very aware that there is a divide uh appearing from those who can afford full access to digital services and those who can't. I don't think that, you know, I think the pandemic has highlighted that quite dramatically around um access to you know technology for education um and was well aware of that way before the pandemic. Um and so you know, I will be working with them to look at how we improve social mobility across the digital skills network in the UK. I think the second thing is that you know, if you look across big technology, it they are large American companies, some emerging large companies out of China. You know, the one thing I know about this country is we're fantastic inventors, we're fantastic startups. We we don't have the right philosophy or capability to accelerate the investment into our you know startup tech companies. And I think you know, if we're to make a difference in the next economy, um, uh and which is you know what we're in the middle of right now, then we need to do better with you know homegrown tech. And that means influencing the markets and how we finance and uh uh and deliver that. So government needs to reduce the red tape and create the right environment within the various stock markets here in the UK to create a different investment profile. And if we do that, you know, then you could say that in the next 15 years, hopefully, out of those big tech companies, you know, we've got a good representation from UK tech because at the moment I don't think we're doing, I don't think we're doing good enough on the world stage. So those are the two guiding principles that have led me to take this role. I'm looking forward to working, you know, with the board of Tech UK to to start to influence that in in every which way I can. Well great thing to do.

Vic 39:48

It's massively inspirational.

Speaker 1 39:50

Yeah, yeah. What do they call them? Hairy audacious goals are the ones that drive you. And yeah, you know, again, you know, at the moment it feels hard, but if I don't start now, when when will I ever start? So you know that that's the that's the point of getting involved. But I I also do think we need to to push hard on the on you know, on the investment community in this country. You know, at the moment, the the investment I see into UK tech is coming from from the US, and and we need to we need to be smarter about that because they will push those listings to the Nasdaq, and the Nasdaq tends to value companies uh at you know at a greater value. I'll give you an example. There'll be uh uh a large RPA company come to the market, and they're pre-IPO in the US. If you compare that with probably the best underrated story we've got in the UK right now, which is that you know the best RPA company on the planet, and they will come to the the market with a market cap four times greater than than a company that's already three years ahead of them. That's wrong. Yeah, that's just wrong. Yeah, we need to change that.

Vic 41:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2 41:03

Well, as we start to draw towards a c a close, perhaps you could uh wrap up by giving us your three takeaways for leaders and aspiring leaders, Duncan.

Speaker 1 41:12

Yeah, so three takeaways. I feel I feel like uh that's a lot to take away. Yeah, that's a real privileged position to be in. And uh, you know, um, yeah, I've got to compete with Anton Deck here, right? You know, it's uh on the takeaway. So I I think you know, the the real sort of takeaway here is is to think about what sort of leader you really want to be. You know, as I say, I'm a purpose-driven leader, which means uh I know exactly what my why is. I have a North Star and I work to that. And and don't tend to deviate from that. It's not that I'm inflexible, it's just compromising across those values is is really, really um, you know, challenging. I think the second thing that you've got to think about is what is your operational style, right? You've got to be operationally astute as a leader. It doesn't matter whether you're a technical group, whether you're leading marketing, whether you're leading a sales team, whether you're you're leading the overall business, you you've got to have a good operational understanding of your business and and understanding how you need to make changes. You know, it is about agility, it is about fleet of foot, it's about being able to roll with that very, very quickly. And then the final thing is is to not forget strategy. Um, quite often we work in a world that is is driven by the results, um, and those results can be you know measured on a 90-day basis or a 30-day basis. You know, you you've got to have that bigger picture in your mind. You've got to be able to see the bigger picture, the hairy, audacious goals, the the fact that this is a journey, there is no destination, but there are stops along the way that matter. So being able to visualize and to have the strategy alongside the operational elements that are driven by your purpose and your values, those are the three things that I think are critically important for any leader, and particularly any leader into the modern world. I would have said many years ago, you could get away with being strategic and operational and be in a very, very senior and influential position. I think without the softer elements, that purpose, you can't need people. Yeah.

Vic 43:30

You need to be able to bring them along with you, don't you?

Speaker 1 43:32

I think it's even a nuance on that, Vicky. I'd say they've got to want to go with you. I think there is a plethora of choice in careers for the next generations. And as I've said, I think in technology, we need we've got a bit of work and maturing to do around why they want to come with us.

Vic 43:52

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree completely.

Speaker 1 43:54

Command, command and control hold holds no, holds cuts no what's going on.

Speaker 2 43:58

Those days are firmly gone. I've used the example before, you know, no one wants to work for Lord Sugar with his you fired kind of attitude. I actually think that should be taken off TV because I think it's terrible for the perception of business. I I totally agree. I mean, I know I know it's hand up for the camera, but I also suspect there's a grain of truth in his behaviour, and I just think it's highly inappropriate.

Speaker 1 44:21

I I agree with you, Sam, and I have to say, I think I've watched one episode. Yeah. After that, it wasn't me.

Speaker 2 44:28

That's it. I agree. I agree. We should the campaign starts now. Lord Scooter, you're fired. Brilliant. On that somewhat dubious note, think you'd best take us into team time.

Vic 44:42

Thank you. And actually, I think it follows really nicely with what we were just talking about there. Because Duncan, um, we previously had hero time, and actually at the Amplified Group, I think we briefly spoke about it. We there's so much, certainly in the tech industry, about employee experience and customer experience and partner experience. Well, at the Amplified Group, we're about team experience. And and so we've we're very proud that we've just trademarked team experience. And so we're trying to educate people on what great team experience is. So I've got some examples. So team experience is when you know recognition will go where it should go. And team experience is about you can't imagine working anywhere else. To your point earlier, of they need to want to come with you versus you asking them to come with you. Another one is teammates can see you're frazzled and they offer their help without hesitation. So you've got that support. And when a team really feels like a family, so what does great team experience mean to you?

Speaker 1 45:46

So it's a great question. And I agree with you, by the way. The experience management is a great category that I see you know growing very rapidly. Um I think when I look at team experience, there's a couple of things that matter. One, the sentiment of the people in the team to the overall organization, but then to each other. Um, and I think that that's really important. I think the ability to know the common goal and that purpose is something that matters to everybody.

Vic 46:21

Yes, collective goal.

Speaker 1 46:22

Collective goals, but maybe in slightly different areas of purpose. You know, I always think about you know that great analogy of John F. Kennedy walking into, I think it was Cape Canaveral, uh coming across the the guy sweeping the floor and yeah, the janitor, and he said, Listen, you know, I I'd like to understand, you know, what your role is. And he said, Mr. President, I'm here to help put a man on the moon, right?

Vic 46:49

It's fantastic, isn't it?

Speaker 1 46:50

Yeah and I and you can't get away from the fact that people have different roles, different jobs to do. That's what my leadership is all about, building high performance teams. To do that, then you know, that experience has got to be collective, and and that's what it means to me, Vicky.

Vic 47:08

Yeah, fantastic. Thank you.

Speaker 2 47:12

Great stuff. What a way to wrap up. Magnificent. Thank you, Duncan.

Speaker 1 47:17

Uh thank you, Sam. Thank you, Victor.

Speaker 2 47:18

Firstly, it's really good to catch up with you after a little while, and secondly, just amazing to have your your insights. Um, it's it's just you know, having been through 20 odd years of SoftCat with all of the you know, the sort of guiding principles of doing the right thing, it's really interesting and powerful to me to see big organizations like VMware who are clearly on that on that track as well. And it does feel like something's shifted in business. We've gone from make a buck to yeah, it's not a bad thing to do to make a buck, but we're also here to crank things forward and make the world of a bit of a bit of a better place. And you know what, if we get that right, we'll probably make more bucks anyway.

Speaker 1 47:59

I and that's the point, Sam. You know, it philanthropy is an interesting place to be. I think corporate philanthropy is is something that is is the next generation. Um but I think if there was one thing, guiding principle, and and you just said it, it is and it's always something, and I'll go back, give credit where credit's due to you know my lovely mum, um, is to do the right thing. And I think if you stick by that, which is a you know, you build the trust, you get the best out of each other, you go forward, you sleep well at night, and you feel great about what your contribution is. And um, you know, that that's that's exactly what this is about right now.

Speaker 2 48:45

Ethical capitalism, the campaign starts here. I love that, Sam. We did that together. We did it together. I love it. That's that's the that's the guiding principle. Fantastic. Brilliant. On that, on that note, I shall descend from my high horse and uh and wrap us up. It just remains for me to say obviously thank you, Duncan, but also thanks to our listeners for enjoying. I hope another episode of Get Amplified from the Amplified Group. Your comments and of course your subscriptions are as always gratefully received.