Special Episode: Soil Association COSMOS x Indie Lee

On this special recording of Indie's webinar with Soil Association & COSMOS, Indie is joined by Fiona Campbell. 

Fiona is the Senior Business Development Manager of Beauty & Wellbeing at Soil Association, a certifying party of COSMOS. COSMOS is a leading global certification process guided by leaders in the environmental and biodiversity industries. 

Indie and Fiona cover Indie's decision to seek COSMOS certification and why certifications are so important in clean beauty, especially to legitimize claims around organic, natural and more. 

Transcript

0:12

Welcome to come and clean with indie lay a podcast series about living with purpose, acting with passion and being fully present. I'm your host, Andy Lee. Today's episode is from a webinar I recently did with Fiona Campbell, senior business development manager with soil association with so many questions about clean, natural, naturally derived in the beauty industry, I thought why not bring the expert to the podcast as well. This webinar is also available on our YouTube channel. So check it out. And I am sitting here well virtually with Fiona Campbell, who is the senior business development manager for soil Association. So Fiona, thank you so much for joining us in the UK so late, I really appreciate it. Thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited about today. session, it's gonna be really fun. I guess I can tell everyone a little bit about myself. So yeah. Tell us about yourself. Tell us how you how you got involved with soil Association. That'd be wonderful. Yeah, so my name is piano. I'm a senior business development manager at the soil Association. And I've actually been working in the beauty industry for over 10 years, as the before the storage Association, I had senior buyer roles at big High Street retailers in the UK and also worked in part development. And then at the beginning of last year, I was really like taking much more of an active interest in sustainable beauty like looking for like, more meaning and my everyday career role. And my contract finished at the beginning of 2020 with the current company I was working for. And I think like lots of people, the pandemic kind of totally changed priorities totally changed the market that we're all like working in. And it really allowed me an opportunity to refocus on what I wanted out of my career, what was really important to me, and sustainability and working for a company that had more meaning. For me personally, more meaning in terms of the products and their ethics and their ethos. So actually, this opportunity at Association has been amazing. And it's great working for a not for profit organization and working in certified organic and natural market. Meat. I mean, amazing. I think you're so right. As a result of this pandemic, everybody's focus has really shifted in terms of overall wellness and what that means. And certainly, you know, skincare is having that moment because that, to me, at least that's always been a part of my overall wellness regime. So amazing, incredible. So can you tell us a little bit about soil Association as an organization? Yeah, so soil Association as the leading certified organic food and drink and beauty products in the UK, they certify over 70% of the market. It's the most recognized symbol in the UK market. And it's also the sort of satiation certification is a not for profit organization. So it's part of the sort of satiation charity, which campaigns for more sustainable food, and healthier food and farming and land practices. This association has long been pioneering and beauty products. So we developed one of the first standards over 20 years ago, we've been certifying beauty and wellbeing products, all of that time. And in 2005, we worked in collaboration with four other certifying bodies internationally, to create the cosmos standard. And this is now the most well known and globally recognized standard in the market for health and beauty products for organic and natural certification, and is massively growing. So last year, it grew 40% and now over 40,000 products are certified cosmos. And that includes ingredients and what materials so it's that really exciting kind of mass peak stage. Yeah, no, I know here in the US it's really becoming more well recognized. And certainly during the pandemic, but I think over the past two years, you're really starting to see more and more brands look towards that and more really more consumers are looking towards it to that you know, that I look at as the you know, the gold stamp of of Hey, okay, look at what they're doing and what they stand for how so Cosmos as you said, so I think a lot of people have that confusion. So I'm glad you brought it up is you know, well what is ecostar? What is soil Association? What is Cosmos but you really said like cosmos is that umbrella. And these are organizations just so everybody understands what those organizations because I think that is sometimes where people get confused. So it's soil Association and what are the three others? Yes, there's incasa there's ITR and There's Bdh as well. So they certify within each of those European markets, but sort of association ecosa also certify in the US market. But in your like your umbrella analogy, say cosmos is the umbrella at the top. So that is the standard. And we will work together to create that standard and work very collaboratively with the other certifying bodies. So I think, yeah, the collaboration is such the key within sustainability and sharing those kind of practices and knowledge. How have you seen soil Association really evolved as a result of becoming part of this global are creating this global umbrella? So we think, you know, we continually evolve, as does the beauty market, and, you know, it's evolves as different. Different ingredients come as different, like trends from a consumer perspective, evolve. But I guess what's really important is that the kind of the certification process, and the standard still stays the same as the same transparent and credible process, and standard. So when you look, and we find the cosmos logo on products, you know, consumers can feel Rest assured about what that really means, and that it's a trusted. It's a trusted symbol that, and those products have been rigorously checked throughout the kind of process that I call it the farm to face process. Oh, good. I'm not the only one who uses that term. Okay, great. That's exactly how I would explain. And I think that's something that I would love for our listeners to really understand. Because it's not just the final product, right? It really goes far beyond, it's really the entire supply chain. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that, on how that works. And explain, you have to go exactly from the seed. But if you want to, that's fine, I've got plenty of time. But really how that goes from from farm to face, I love I'm so happy, I've been using the right terminology. And in terms of the farm to face and the Kosmos, process and the certification process, so it does go from checking the ingredients, and checking, you know, where those ingredients come from, from a manufacturer and a supplier level. But it just it does go much further and deeper than the ingredients. So for example, our certification officers check the packaging, and that they meet the cosmos standards in terms of its maximum recycled content possible for the packaging, and you know, that's not over packaging, the even the product labels are checked. So the product labels are checked to make sure that there's not any false claims. We go as far as checking, like the manufacturing processes, so that there's environmental processes to minimize the waste and production within those processes. And so it's a really, it's a rigorous process. And you know, I guess I don't have to tell you into that it's difficult to be certified. But I think that's really important. Because when people see assemble, they know that it's really credible, and you know, it's trusted, and there's even an annual inspection that every one of our brands has to carry out and that we check that information. So no, it's not. It's not just a mock up an easy rubber stamp. No, no, I know that my team knows that it's a regular, it's a definitely a rigorous process to go through. And what I love is that it's not just us, right? So you're really you're looking at, you know, the ingredients, the manufacturing the entire supply chain, from start to finish, so that consumers can feel comfortable when they see that stamp that it means something and that there's a process. And what I love even more is that as you as we said, It evolves. And then the brands that are part of this are basically signing up to evolve with you so that as things change, the brands, the products will change are saying, okay, we're gonna change with you too. So we can continue to, you know, improve and get better, you know, as more information and technology comes onto, you know, comes onto the market. So I think it's incredible. Yeah, and I think, you know, lots of things within sustainability aren't necessarily about perfection. It's about progress. And, you know, the process and the stages towards that process. And that's one of the reasons as well, it's really important that we're continuously reviewing our standards, and improving them and progressing them. Yeah, no, I think it's, I mean, knowing what our brand, you know, has, has really accomplished to get these certifications on the products, but also knowing for our, for people who are tuned in and also understanding really what this stands for. Like we're saying it's also our third party vendor. So it's not just us, it really is going to everything within that supply chain has to be certified in order for a product to have that certification, which I think is another distinction. It's not the brand, it's the product, it's by product. So I think that a lot of people just think that Oh, if you say your cost Because everything is no it's not us. It's you're looking at every every step of each product to certify. Yeah, and we have two different levels of certifications. And there's Cosmos natural and there's Cosmos organic. And in terms of, there's some common principles across both of those different types of certification. So organic products have to have a minimum percentage of organic ingredients. But across both natural and organic certifications, what's really important to us is that the ingredients are all sustainably sourced. So, for example, you know, palm oil, there's lots of conversations in the beauty industry about palm oil, or the palm oil that is in Cosmo certified products comes from our ASPCA certified sources. And all of the products are cruelty free, they're not tested on animals, and they don't use synthetic fragrances or colors. And there's no gn included in the ingredients. synthetic fertilizers and pesticides aren't used on the soil where the ingredients are formed, which is really important because that means that it's better for biodiversity. One of my favorite biodiversity stats is that there's 50% more bees on organic farm, which, you know, we will have more time to you know, Christine, who's watching this is going Yes, because we have conversation about bees all the time. But I think that's so phenomenal to hear. I'd love to talk a little bit about the steps. And but you know, as since we're already on the organic versus the natural, and I have my notes here, I want to make sure. You know, why do you think that having the organic and the natural certifications are so important. I know that you know, you have the cruelty free, right. So we have that we also have you know, which is obviously very important to me, which means that the ingredients, the products are not tested on it, but also going into again, as you're talking about biodiversity about the organic and the natural. What is the difference between those two? I think that's an important distinction for people to understand and why having it is important. Yeah, so I guess the distinction between the two is like the organic ingredients are organically farmed. So it's a more regenerative type of farming. So there aren't the synthetic pesticides and fertilizers used. And there's lots of benefits of organic soil. So it holds more water. You know, we've all seen the devastating effects of climate change across the globe. And there's also stats as well, that organic soils in the long term hold 25% more carbon. And again, you know, it's carbons involved in so many conversations about climate change. Yeah, so there's lots of benefits of organic ingredients on organic farming. But we also have the natural certification, because actually within beauty and cosmetics products, some of those ingredients aren't possible to be organically farmed. So for example, Clay like in face masks, we will have a clay face mask can't actually be organically farmed, because it's like a bound ingredient. It's like mine, it's bound from the sources. You know, water is an organic ingredient. It's bound, it's not grown. So that's one of the reasons it's very important to have those two distinctions within bc have the natural and happy organic certification. Fantastic. Yeah, I think that's an important distinction for everybody to hear from you guys. From from you. For me, you know, I've always said it and people like okay, but how does that? How does that play into a role when you come to cosmos and soil Association and getting certified? And I really agree with you the importance of biodiversity and this, this, how are we not just sustaining right keeping the status quo, but how are we adding to because we've been really depleting and taking from, and that's another reason why for me having that Cosmos stamp of approval and soil as a season stamp of approval means something to me as a steward of the earth. So I love it. I know that there's some technical questions that I wanted to ask you so so get ready for them. They're not gonna. Yep, no, but how have you seen Cosmos grown over the past few years? I mean, I think I'm seeing exponential growth. But truly, what are the stats in terms of the growth, not just Well, in the US and globally? I mean, in the UK, globally, so probably at great 40% last year, like total cosmos. And within the UK, the market for certified organic and natural products grew by 13%, which I think is amazing considering so many of our retail stores were closed last year and salons and spa experiences. You know, so many massive parts of our sector have been shut down. So to see that growth and its greatest well ahead of the non organic and natural and non certified. Each market is really amazing. And yeah, so that's some really fun market stats. That's amazing. I mean, that's incredible given what's going on, but to see that over year over year 40%, from last year in Cosmos internationally, I mean, listen, the pandemic is not, is not confined to here in the US or UK to see that kind of growth is really incredible. What do you see the differences between Cosmos or you know, soil says, I'm just gonna use Cosmos as the umbrella here. But um, cosmos and other certifications like USDA, how do you how do you explain the differences? Yeah, so I think, you know, USDA certification and regulations aren't weren't specifically created for health and beauty products. So, you know, there's lots of complexities involved in formulating those products. So that's one of the advantages of cosmos. And, and they also, we also include water in our calculations. So it's more of a transparent way of calculating the full product. And actually, water in b2c, actually, lots of personal care categories is, is actually quite a large ingredient, for example, in shower gel, formulations and things like toothpaste. So it's actually more of a, I would say transparent way of calculating the total percentage of product and a transparent kind of standard for the beauty industry and is created bespoke me. Because my standard for beauty, cosmetics, personal care products, I didn't I you know, I'll admit, I didn't even realize how big Cosmo says, and then even incorporated going into the food industry. so silly meat, nothing soil Association, but I really had only seen it at least here as it relates to UT. So it's so interesting, when you started that you said that I just I had no idea those type of stats. Yeah, so Cosmos just does just right to beauty and soul Association and also satisfies food. So it's so I think it's so interesting. Okay, why do you feel that certifications are so important and legitimizing brands, specifically, in terms of the supply chain? Yeah. And, you know, I think it's specific, really important and organic and natural, because there's no, like, government regulated standards in that area. So you know, a brand can say that this face cream, or the serum is organic, or natural, and it can only contain 1% of the ingredients, it could be organic or natural. So having certification in this area, I think, is really important for providing clarity for customers and consumers. We just completed my research in December and one in five consumers that that they didn't trust the claims on beauty products. And then, you know, we asked like, what was their kind of view of when they saw our certification logo. And they said that just on behalf of those consumers, that that actually, those labels really helped them to be able to make more informed decisions about you know, and understand which products were the more sustainable beauty options for them to purchase into, because so many consumers now I think, you know, want to want to be making the right decision. brands to be doing more as well. But it is very confusing and complex market out there. And they mean, you can only imagine what it's like, I mean, obviously, I know and a lot of people who are on this, I can see the list of people here understand the importance of what clean beauty and and obviously, you're looking towards cleaner brands. But it's such a confusing market, because as you say, there's no regulation over the words natural, natural derived clean. There's so much clean washing and green washing. And it's it's very confusing, it's really confusing. And it just continues to create mistrust, even within the clean beauty, you know, fraction because you've got your retailers who have all different types of what their clean standards are. And that was one of the biggest reasons why we said okay, what is our state going to be and why, you know, creating the relationship and getting certified through soil Association and Cosmos was so important. So our consumers and fans and loyalists understand our commitment to it and can really understand that it is it goes more than just what's in the jar. It's really the entire process from soup to Yeah, and I think, you know, it's being transparent about that transfer that entire process. And, you know, bt customers are so savvy now and they want that transparency. Yeah. And it's trying to navigate and find easy to understand ways that communicate those values. And that and that transparency. It's it's confusing. I mean, listen, I am in the industry. And I'm constantly asked this questions. And I am always amazed at how much continued you know, as much as we're saying it, people just know what they don't know what the difference between the various different certifications, which is why I'm so grateful that you are willing to do this with us. Okay, so I know the soil Association puts out this organic beauty and wellbeing report every year. I know it's coming out later this month, right later in February. What are some of the biggest trends You're seeing over the last year like for you? Which was, like surprising for you. Yeah, I think I think actually one of the kind of the trends that we saw surprising as well, because they're a continuation of trends that we've seen, but I think what's surprising is that cavemen and the pandemic has just accelerated those trends and made them increasingly important. So the trends that we're seeing is that increasingly, customers are buying products online. And, you know, that's a great tool to be used in terms of convenience in terms of the delivery method, but actually, how people are shopping those products, wanting more information, creating online communities, I guess, you know, we're, we're an online community here that's not doing this doing that this is an example of it. So that's become increasingly relevant and really key for the organic and natural market. Because, you know, you can find out more information when you're purchasing products online, and research those products. And, you know, and ask your friends, you know, what reviews are those products and how you know, how they're working, what those ingredients mean. So that kind of sharing, I think, has become really important. And I think as well, the trend that we've seen is that appreciation for nature and appreciation and understanding of the impact that our actions are having on the planet. And, you know, the wider sustainability conversations, I think we've seen that over the last year as well, these aren't just kind of decisions, like impulse purchasing behaviors, I think this is deep stat customer, like behavioral changes, that, you know, we're not going to go back to the way it was in 2019. You know, I agree with you completely, I don't think I think we're seeing the shift. And I think one of the things is that people are able to do the research before they buy versus in the store. They're, they're more susceptible, I'm one of those to these impulse buys, or they see something, and they might not do the due diligence. They're like, Okay, this is what I think I need, and they're gonna take it versus now so many people, because we are inside, are really taking those extra steps to do the research on the brand on the ingredient, what's going on in the marketplace to make the best decision for them and their family? So I agree, but it's interesting to see that and this was a global was it it was a global report, or was it just based for UK, which is pretty much the same? Yeah, it touches the consumer insights that we've pulled together from the UK, but it does touch on some of the global trends and some Yeah, and some of the global market stats as well. So yeah, and it's, it's free to download. So. Yeah, what's that? Watch out for the launch? We're launching on the 16th of February. So watch out on the sort of satiation and beauty Instagram channel. Yeah, we'll be shouting about it when it launches. And yeah, it'd be great to have as many people read the report as possible. It also really talks about kind of the principles of organic and how organic and natural beauty is actually like kind of for the better for the environment. And we've got a great introduction as well. That was written by Arizona Muse as well. So we've worked with some amazing partners to create the report as well. I heard there might be something in there by Andy Lee to Yes, I just heard, I've heard. So we got it. We have everybody. I mean, so funny. Everybody must just be listening intently. Because normally I see the chat going. And all sudden, once you started speaking piano, everybody just went quiet. Because I mean, what you the information that you're providing, I know is so helpful, because like we're saying there's so much confusion in the marketplace. Okay, so one of the questions I got was from Sarah, and it says, if you're approved, how often do you get checked for continuity. So the brands are annually inspected and like that inspection covers a lot of aspects. So it like checks through all of the kind of paperwork, you know, will spot check product packaging against the like, the paperwork that's been supplied for when we're checking through all of the raw materials and ingredients. So yeah, and anytime a new product is added on to a license. So as as Andy said, it's very much a kind of product by product basis. It's not, you know, this is this is your brand, this is your certification for like your brand. And you know, you can launch as many Go Go launch as many products to market. So each product is individually checked before it's awarded. It's added on to certificate and then awarded certification and then even just all the marketing, I know speaking from experience, like even all the marketing that we put out goes through soil Association for approval to make sure that what we're saying is right. And I know that everything that our manufacturers are going through, they need to go through the same annual audit as well. You really have very stringent records. Cat in order to pass the audits for certification? Yeah, and you know, it does add time on to your, like leadtime. It, as we kind of talked about it is it's a rigorous process. It's not, it's not an easy process to be certified. And that's important to us in terms of our compliance and you know, our credibility in that we are also trusted satisfier. So, just received the question, okay, would love to understand how long the certification process takes? Oh, that's like, how long is a string? Because I guess it depends on the complexity of your product. So if your product is using ingredients that have already been certified with that manufacturer, it can take less time. But if you know, so, for example, we've been in the UK working with a kind of toothpaste brands. So some of those formulations were more complex, they took longer. So it can be like 12 weeks, it can be three weeks if you're adding a new type of product, but you know, sometimes it can take a year. So yeah, it is. It does massively vary. You mean for us? Because we were certifying, you know, obviously went through the whole process, that it definitely took, I think, probably a year just to get certified then the audits also. I mean, and yet another question, I love it. Outside of looking for seals, what other things should cut consumers look for when trying to cut through the clutter of greenwashing? Well, I think you know, you've got to love an inky list, aren't you? Like, you know, looking at the ingredients on the packaging is? No, is key. And that's not like, that's not kind of a perianth you want to hit because that does take time, and also takes like a level of understanding in terms of becoming more savvy about, you know, what are those ingredients. And not every ingredient is the same I've talked about this, because, you know, for us, obviously, having so many of our products, you know, going through the process, there's a level of trust, because again, as you're talking about it is at the ingredient level that is being certified. So you know, as I like to say, you know, plant grown in my backyard is not going to be necessarily as potent as something grown, where it's indigenous to, like tea tree from my house. So I think it's also go so I think it's, it's really getting to know the brand too, and understanding what they stand for. Okay, another question is, what products do you certify for the most? Oh, and times i? Well, skincare is I guess, like, our biggest kind of category. And I think you know, that's really, but there's some really interesting products as well, because I think, you know, skincare you're putting on your skin. And I know, there's lots of discussions about the microbe, like always get the name wrong, about you know, how skincare products can seep through your skin, but actually, you know, we've got lots of certified organic products that are really amazing, like, you know, you put inside your skin from inside your body from a personal perspective. So you know, like, feminine hygiene products, female lubricants, they actually think like lots of days brands are really interesting, and will sustain kind of growth within some of the smaller categories. So, fragrance, I think is a really interesting area. And, you know, previously has been very clouded in secrecy about what goes into fragrances. So that's made them be quite further behind, I think in terms of certification within organic and natural, but actually, you know, lots of consumers now are looking for products in the whole of their lifestyle, they want to be satisfied, organic and natural. And fragrance is one of those and also grilled. That's a massive area of that, that really needs this transparency, because as you said, it used to be able to be covered, and now people really want to understand what they're putting on their body. Yeah, I think, you know, you want an option for everything that is organic and natural. But equally, I think, you know, that takes time. And, you know, I think within consumers as well, you know, that is like, you know, there's still you know, some products that maybe aren't your favorite organic and natural products, you know, maybe you've not found the best mascara that's certified and that's okay, as well, because it's you know, like one small swap even still makes a difference. I agree I say one product at a time. Okay. Also, some people would like to know, only if you're comfortable. The associated costs, like what are the general costs around certification? Is it on a product by product? Obviously, it's on a product by product. How does that work? So actually, it isn't on a product by product basis when you start to buy with this sort of satiation. So each certifying Bureau has a slightly different kind of fee structure. And what I'm really excited about all these questions is it's like I feel like there's all these Like businesses, like every, all these budding entrepreneurs that want to start their own businesses up, and you know, want to come and satisfy, which is, which is fantastic. And so there is like a set application fee, and then you can, and that's when you do it. And you can add as many products onto a license for that sale actually, at the sole Association, we don't satisfy on a product by product basis. And once you hit a certain amount of kind of turnover of those certified products, it switches to a different kind of fee structure. So then a certain percentage of your sales would be the fee rather than one set fee. But let me know, I mean, like message, what, like, leave your contact details, and I can send you over some more details in terms of the process and of how to apply and we can send you all the fee sheet details. Amazing. What when a brand wants to be certified, how does this affect their third party partners and vendors? I know this answer, but you should, but I'll let you answer this. So as as, as Andy said yet, so the manufacturer has to be certified as well. And, and, and ingredients, you say like the organic and natural ingredients they purchase has to also come from certified manufacturers, and we do have like, we can share some of that information. So, you know, one of the barriers, and one of the challenges certifies like that, you know, the questions are, well, how do I know which certified manufacturers that I can work with, and that information is also available on the cosmos website in the cosmos database. So please feel free to check out the cosmos website and lots of interesting stuff about standards, but also information you can find out about like, who are the satisfied manufacturers where you can source satisfied ingredients, I find that the website is so helpful, there's so much information for for brands and consumers to get a better understanding of what cosmos is. Yeah. And if you're a consumer and you want an I will, which is this brand certified cosmos, you can find out as well. Three days kind of websites, terror only because I don't know what else. Can you type in the chat what the website is. So anybody on here can copy that over. Okay, as I ask some more questions. Okay. Why would a brand not get certified besides time and knowing there that they wouldn't be able to? Oh, thanks, Tara. I guess that's a tough question. No, for me, but then I guess, actually, well, I, I think it's interesting, because I come from, I come from a commercial background, you know, I was developing a brand product for retailers. And I think sometimes it's, you know, it's like, it's time and, and like, like, resource like, and also like, not, the beauty market is like driven by new Isn't it like constantly like new new products? And like, what often like, I think that people don't have the time to take step back and be like to build in the extra time it takes to certify into your critical path deadlines. And to take a step back and think Well, actually, you know, how can we make a step change? How can we be really truly sustainable? How can we be measurable? How can we be transparent? So I think some of it is an element of a little bit of like, just not having the resources, I think, you know, certification is really beneficial for customers. But actually, we're interested in you seeing lots of interest for retailers, because everyone has these massive sustainability targets that they want to meet, but how do you measure those targets? And actually, certification is helping lots of those big brands, from you know, like Amazon and their climate friendly page to like, to more premium retailers. Like we're having conversations with lots of nice retailers as well as certification that can help retailers and brands as well as consumers understanding so I probably answered that bit womanly, like No, but I think it's, I think it is the I don't, I don't personally know why someone want wouldn't want to get certified. But I think that the barrier might be the resources, and that's a function of time and money and, and manpower. You know, yeah. Okay, so, so the manufacturers also have to pay the fees to get certified. Yes. I need that one to feel like I'm playing a game. Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's the other part. Geraldine asked a great question is this really is a third party and it goes straight from the vendors. And straight to even know the manufacturers of the ingredients. So the farmers have no we have to make sure that it is as Fiona says, from farm to face, every step of that is certified, which is one of the reasons why it is so a gold standard, I believe in medications and supply chains are complex, aren't they, when you are creating products is, I guess any of you decree ingredients in your garden? It would be, it would be slightly easier. But that's kind of it's not the reality of lots of beauty and cosmetics products. No, nor do I have the room to do it. People are like, do you still do that? No, no, not at all. I love it. Well, I think we have our questions. Are there any anyone else out there who wants to ask a question on you again, you can put it in the q&a or obviously in the chat. And if you take a look at the chat, Tara was kind enough to go ahead and put both the soil Association and Cosmos standard website so you guys can take a look and copy those over. And certainly, if you have any questions after this, you can obviously reach out to piano or reach out to us. And we'll we'll put you in touch with soil Association as well. All right, I think I mean, I think we went through everything. I just making sure if we don't have any other questions, I certainly don't want to keep you because I know it's already almost 10 o'clock. But this was amazing and so fantastic. And hopefully provided so much information. Yes, there is a recording so much information to everybody who is on here, as you can tell by all the questions. And I'm really excited to be able to share pieces of this both on social and obviously on our website. You're welcome, Holly, no problem. Sometimes it's hard to watch both. But this was for me. incredibly informative, as well. And I just, I cannot thank you enough for spending your evening with us. I know. Thank you for having me. And again, it's amazing. Thanks for the questions. It's nice to get to speak to everyone and to have such an amazing reach and to cooperate together. Another extra thank you to Fiona and the entire soil Association team for helping us put that together. Well listeners. Thank you again for joining us on this week's episode. As always, if you like what you hear, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you have ideas for upcoming episodes or questions you'd like me to address on upcoming episodes. Feel free to email me directly at coming clean@undelete.com Thanks so much.