On this episode, Indie chats with Kim Paschen of Leaping Bunny. They discuss why certified cruelty-free is so important, the future of clean and protecting our animals.
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On this episode, Indie chats with Kim Paschen of Leaping Bunny. They discuss why certified cruelty-free is so important, the future of clean and protecting our animals.
Links:
Hello, everybody, welcome to another episode of coming clean with indie Lee. I'm your host indie lay. And I mean, I say this a lot, but I am thrilled and honored to be sitting here with Kim. Kim is a part of Leaping Bunny and I'm gonna have her tell you all about what her position is and everything. But those of you know that Leaping Bunny and being cruelty free and specifically being certified brand under Leaping Bunny for I think since 2010 2011 is something that I was passionate about from the moment I started my brand. So Kim, thank you so much for joining me and being part of the podcast today. Well, thank you for, for asking me to come on, out, please. I am I mean, you know this, we were talking just before this, I'm like, Oh my god, I think I probably been handing you a little bit about I was like, Okay, okay, I want to do this, I want to do this. And I think that the reason and I will dive into it. But being a part of this movement, and putting a real stance on, that is not okay, what's happened in the industry in terms of cruelty to animals and testing in animals, is something that I didn't really realize until I became somebody part of the industry. And then to know that there was a governing body out there that was nonprofit and certifying, and really going through the process was something that I knew very early on, I wanted to be a part of, and to be an advocate for. And I would love for you to tell a little bit more. But you know, I always start my podcast podcast off in the same way. Because I truly do believe that people often get through pain or from their passion than find their purpose. And it's usually from a defining moment that that kind of happens. And they're like, this is what I want to do is my purpose in life. And I'm curious, how did you get started was there that moment where you're like, this is what my life's purpose is to be a part of the cruelty free and Leaping Bunny specifically? Well, thank you for having me once again. And I can say that back in high school, I had to do a presentation on vivisection. At that point, I really didn't know much about animal testing what it entailed. And that was sort of my entree into this industry. There are lots of animal advocacy issues that you can get involved and some are more or less controversial. I think we can all agree at this point that testing on animals for the purposes of cosmetics is really outdated and unnecessary. And so while I strongly strongly believe in other areas of animal advocacy, I am a longtime vegetarian, longtime feline rescuer, I was very happy to be able to get into this field of fighting to end animal testing in cosmetics and personal care products and household products. Because I think it's something that consumers want. They expect it now. And frankly, there's no excuse to be using animals in this capacity. So I I love. I love working with our brands, I am an natural people person, I love collaborating. And so this really was such a great fit for me. And I've been doing it since 2010. I was gonna say you've been in this movement for now 11 years, and really is at the forefront of wanted Leaping Bunny start. So Leaping Bunny was founded in 1996 by a coalition of animal protection organizations in the US and Canada, who basically decided to get together and develop a standard that would outline principles that companies would need to adhere to, to say that they were cruelty free because at that time, greenwashing was really starting to take practice in the industry and companies were able to make whatever claims about animal testing that they wanted, without having substantiate them. And so the term cruelty free or the appearance of a bunny on a package or bottle really meant very little because any company could make the claim. Unbelievable. Unbelievable now and there's also and maybe you can go in a little bit into this um, there is a difference right between cruelty free and Leaping Bunny because Leaping Bunny is goes and please correct me if I'm wrong goes even further. Because it's not just saying that the products cruelty free. It's really also about the ingredient sourcing as well, so that the ingredients aren't tested. And there's a difference if I'm not incorrect. Well, at this time, you know, almost no animal testing is conducted on finished products anymore. It really is done at the ingredient level. And our program essentially requires all companies to submit an application, along with declarations from all of their ingredient suppliers and manufacturers that individually say that they also do not animal test. And so, you know, it's cruelty free in the sense that it there's free of animal testing, from ingredients to formulations to finished products. I Well, you know, I love this. What I also love is that it's not just a one and done, this is a continual certification. So I want people to understand that brands that sign up for Leaping Bunny, also need to do it and re up on a yearly an annual basis and submit themselves to being audited. One of the one of the fun things about my career is I've actually been able to sit in this very office in my house before we had, this is where Kim came in to make sure and was able to do an audit too. It's one thing for us to say it but it's another thing for brands to really put put, you know, put their money where their mouth is and say, here's all the records. Here's transparency. And here's all the manufacturers that we work with, and our commitment to it. And that's what I love about Leaping Bunny is again, it's it's an annual certification. That's right, our certification is actually free. So any company can join, our only cost is for a company to optionally choose to license our logo, but it's not at all a requirement. All Leaping Bunny certified companies are assessed in the same manner and determined to be cruelty free against our standard. We also as indie, as you said, we do require companies to recommit annually. And it's essentially a check to make sure that all of their manufacturers and suppliers are up to date since things can change. Throughout the year ownership can change, import practices can change. And so we really want to make sure that the list that we're putting out is as up to date as possible. And I have to say I'm really, really proud of the list that we put out because it is current, it's it's you know, we have over 2000 companies at this point. So things can be happening. Yeah, we have like think 20 want little over 2100 companies 2200 companies at this time. And so, you know, we're removing companies that maybe have gone out of business that haven't re committed. But we're constantly updating our list. And it's done in real time every day. So when you look at our list on our website, it really is something that is it could have been updated a minute before. That's incredible, because I know it's also a nonprofit. How many people work on Leaping Bunny, because I don't think people realize the amount of work that goes into this. Well, I am actually an employee of the American anti vivisection society. And aavs is the chair of the Leaping Bunny program. It's one of the animal protection organizations that runs Leaping Bunny, and we're the chair so we do all of the day to day. So I'm the program manager, we have a chair of ccic, which is su Larry, who's also the president of abs. And we have my colleagues, Caitlin, who does all of the original approvals and handles local licensing works with manufacturers and suppliers. And then we have my colleague Maria, who principally does recommitment but also does pretty much everything else. So really, it's just the three of us plus two. There are three of you 2200 companies. Yes, updated daily. Yes, we have a really great website. I know. But and we have a really, really great system of processes to be able to really expeditiously process companies and answer queries. We've been doing this a long time. So a lot of stuff is is second nature and at the same time, we're always prepared for future challenges. Like, like the China issue. There's you wade into that better, I think, well, thank you. I didn't even put it as like Oh, I forgot to tell me a little bit about that because I know that something that You know, obviously this has come out which you know that China is finally saying no more. Thank you. I think this is a long time coming. I wanted to know, how is Leaping Bunny approaching it? What is your thoughts on this? I'm hoping that it's a positive? And what do you think that is going to mean for the industry, and then the amount of people who are now going to be able to commit to Leaping Bunny? Well, the the news out of China certainly is moving in the right direction, we can't dispute that. However, it is more complicated than just, you know, no, no animal testing on imported ordinary cosmetics, now, it's, there are going to be a lot of hurdles for companies to overcome. One of them is that China will be requiring companies importing to have certificates of good manufacturing processes. And currently the US there's no us body that issues them in the way that China is requiring. And so there's a lot of work being done at the state level to engage stakeholders and state officials to see if something can be worked out. But it's definitely going to be a long process to get that worked out. And one of the new requirements among many is that a company must actually establish a physical office or presence in China, which has to comprise between three and five people working in China. So it's, there's a lot of good that we expect to come out of this. But it certainly is going to be a challenging route for companies that wish to undertake this. I mean, obviously, as a brand, and that being a huge growth opportunity, it is going to be interesting how we are going to navigate it, obviously we're going to navigate it with Leaping Bunny. It's that was never in question. I mean, obviously, you know, we're also, you know, in the process of having the majority of our products, I think 14 Well, 12. Now two on the way, another two after that Cosmos certified, which is the global umbrella, which also is part of, you know, establishing that you are cruelty free, both, you know, the end products and the ingredients as well. So for us, you know, that's always been our stance, we're not going to change that for, you know, to go into it. But there's also confusion about how because I do know, you can obviously go into China through you know, obviously, different routes, right? Yeah. Which is obviously selling online, I'd love for you to talk about that if you if you would, because I do know that there are brands like mine that are going to be able to go in but do it differently, but still uphold the Leaping Bunny commitment. Sure. So right now, companies are able to access the Chinese market, through the online platforms like team all global without registering their products to be important. And the online platform has been able to allow companies and without animal testing, since they're not formally registering. But as we have been hearing, that platform is not 100% certain because it's not heavily regulated. And it could change at any time with regard to regulations. And China could come in tomorrow and say they have imposed, they're imposing a set of regulations on CBC cross border e commerce platforms, that would require some sort of testing assessment. We just don't know right now. And this area has been growing so much that key figures really are worried that China will see this as an opportunity to impose further regulation. So while it is still a safe Avenue at this point, and we don't know of any post market testing that has occurred, we are monitoring that situation, I would imagine you'd have to I mean, just even with my hope is that with China coming out and saying, okay, we're, we're we hear you, right? And knowing that the population would like to have brands that are cruelty free, you know, in China, and then having this work around that they're going to have to open up and say okay, we've got to make some changes, at least that's my hope. But knowing that Leaping Bunny I mean for us it's exactly that when we said okay, we're looking into this. Okay, what is Leaping Bunny do and I know that other brands look at Leaping Bunny to say okay, what is and is not okay. and work with you, which is you know, I mean, I think that's why we're seeing so many brands Gentle Leaping Bunny, to be honest with you. Yeah, it's amazing. I know, I know, I you know what, there's hope out there, that's, that's what I got out of it when I saw that it was I knew it wasn't going to be like, okay, the floodgates are open, but at least there's hope for some change, and it is on the horizon. And what I believe your mission to be, is starting to be heard and spread. Definitely. And, you know, frankly, a lot of the brands are putting pressure on the the lawmakers because they want, they know that it's in their best interest and in the best interest of where they're located of the consumers to have cruelty free products. So there's a lot of pressure coming from different areas, for sure. And the Chinese consumer, you know, it's they're more open to products that are free of animal testing. And as long as the safety can be assessed in other ways, because that's a pretty big issue in China with a lot of counterfeit products and formulas. And so you know, the number one goal in all of this, obviously, is to keep consumers safe. And that's, of course, our goal as well, we just believe that it can be done without harming animal harming animals. Right. And that's, I think one of the big distinctions also is that this is all in the name of keeping consumers safe. But there's no reason we can't keep animals saved. At the same time, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. It can be absolutely elusive. I know there's a lot of confusion, like there's Leaping Bunny and we talked in cruelty free, and we talked about that. Then there's PETA there's all these things, how does this all play out, because again, it goes to there's no one governing body, but it sounds like they do all kind of talk together. So PETA was actually a part of Leaping Bunny, way back when it was first starting to form. And they ended up dis I was not obviously a part of it at the time, I wasn't in the room or anything. So this is just like a legend handed down to me. But they decided basically to go off and you know, create their own list which they have done. And we do not, I really can't comment exactly on on what PETA does and how their standard is different from ours. I can only say that there are companies that are on their list that are not on ours. So for whatever reason, you know, people have independently you know, outside of us said that our list is stricter, whether or not that's jewelry that I I had a part of that. No, I can't compare the two but just anecdotally speaking from from companies feedback, they have said that ours is more stringent in the reason I asked is because I remember reading at one point there was some relation or interconnectivity or however you want to see it, but I know it's now very two different bodies. But again, like you said, there's a Leaping Bunny is actually a part of a bigger, you know, stance. America American vivid, I won't say this correctly, so we just say abs, okay, so as part of a vas. And that's really so like Leaping Bunny is a certification process underneath that, which really governs and dictates what should be done in order to establish that there has been no testing is my understanding. Yes, because yes, Leaping Bunny is one of the programs of ABS but the other organizations involved in the ccic, which is the coalition that operates sleeping bunny include the Humane Society of the United States, the animal alliance of Canada, and the America, the National anti vivisection society and rise for animals which used to be the New England anti vivisection society. So all of those different organizations are doing their own advocacy work to help end animal testing and then they're also a part of the Leaping Bunny program. I had no idea that the Humane Society was actually part of it. That's amazing. Yes, they are. They are I am I mean, yeah, that's where I got my pup from. Asus is is huge. And they have a huge Department of Animal research, that they're devoted to this very subject and, you know, to try to change laws, and they've been working really hard with individual states to get state laws passed for testing bands and I know California has passed Virginia's passed, I think there's a couple other states as well that have passed. So they're really working hard to advocate at the state level for an end to animal testing, which hopefully one day would, you know, there would be enough states that it would cause a tipping point. And then it would be something addressed at the federal level where a country like, you know, Norway or Israel, or the EU that has an actual cosmetic testing ban would come into force at the federal level in the United States, there is a hope there is hope. I'm gonna put it out there. And to know that, at least our brand and that there are 2200 brands out there that are, you know, joining hands with Leaping Bunny and with the larger organizations to help create that change is something I'm actually really proud to be a part of, and certainly, as brands is going to continue to advocate for. Now, when I first met you, right, you talked about him, which I thought was like last year, and then we realized it was almost five years ago, and he hasn't had a child and I'm married. And I'm like, wow, it's like amazing, like, time goes by that fast. When it goes by and you're having fun, right? I'm telling you, I am. Okay, this year has been a little weird for me. I will tell you people I would use would you never do that? I'm like, I never I'm gonna use the word never. Because Never did I think I'd be stuck in my house for a year either. So never gonna use that term. Sure. But you I never got it because you really did talk about your mission being to create a kinder world right and and I know that your advocacy, you know, with felines, obviously your work with Leaping Bunny, what changes have you seen since we met that you're really excited about that is giving you hope? Well, the first thing I have noticed is there are so many larger brands that are now getting certified. I think when we started this, most of the brands were pretty small. And it's just amazing to see these larger brands want to undertake this mission, and create cruelty free supply chains. I think another thing that I've been just so pleased with is the availability of Leaping Bunny certified companies, prior products in stores, in regular stores, not not necessarily specialty stores. But you walk into target, you walk into Wegmans. And you literally have your pick of what you need or want. And you can choose, you have a choice now, between different brands to buy cruelty free, and there really is something for everyone you would not believe some of the products that we see from companies that we certify, it's it's just absolutely incredible to see the ingenuity of these different companies and how passionate they are not only about creating products that are free of animal testing, but products that may be you know, bottled without plastics, you know, aluminum only or refillable programs or with household products too. Great. Yeah, like cleaning products, having, you know, tiny little tablets or that little combine that boom. Later. Yeah, and then these reusable glass bottles. That's how I buy from Grove collab. I use that and and it's fantastic. To my daughter. I know it gives me a lot of help what I think people are, are often surprised that is that here in the US, it's not mandatory to be cruelty free, and that there are brands that have not been certified and may or may not, you know, be still part of the testing process on animals. Yeah, totally realize it. Definitely. It's very hard to verify on your own. There's certainly no requirement for labeling with regard to animal testing, which is why a lot of people ask us, are you also a vegan certifier? And we say we're not a vegan certifier, because ingredients are required to be put on the labeling and so consumers can see whether or not a product contains animal derived ingredients and then they can choose whether or not they want to buy it. But we focus only on the cruelty free claims because there's So much uncertainty around that. And there is not one set of guidelines out there for everyone. And so, you know, obviously the vegan issue is super important. A lot of our companies are just inherently vegan. But we really just focus on the cruelty free claims because of just the ambiguity around it. No, absolutely. And that makes that makes perfect sense. I'm certainly as excited about you. It's interesting as we do work on our own site. We're working on SEO, etc. And one of the biggest key search words that people look for now is cruelty free. Isn't that amazing? It's absolutely true. Yeah, it is a major, major point of differentiation. And for me, I'm like, What? Course? Like, isn't that a DA? And it wasn't until I started to do, you know, a little bit digging, because I've always been, like, looking at for cruelty free that I realized, Wow, there are brands that I just didn't know, especially when I started to come into the obviously, you know, I came from accounting. So it certainly wasn't relevant to me looking at numbers. But as a consumer never really thought about it, I made assumptions. That's the thing is you can you can go right now to any store and pick up a bottle and you might see a bunny, I've seen mice, any sort of cute little animal. And you don't even know anything about this product, and there can be a bunny on it. Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. And then you can think there's a bunny, so it's safe. And, you know, we really like you have a leaf, it must be natural. Yeah, I mean, it's greenwashing at its worst, frankly. And, and so that's why, you know, we have a standard, it's published on our website, so anyone can view it. You know, it's exactly the criteria that we use when we're assessing a company's status. And our goal is, you know, one to connect compassionate consumers to cruelty free companies. But on the other hand, also to be as utterly transparent as possible. In a world that is really, really murky. Yeah, that's for sure. And so relatedly How do people I know you got a Leaping Bunny red.org? Like, how do people go about after hearing this, I'm hoping. certifying, right. And I know, this is it's in personal care, it's in cosmetics, etc. Same company says, You know what, I want to be a part of this, how do they get involved. So any company can register on our website, it's a very short form, it basically sort of pre qualifies them to make sure that they would be able to get certified through us. And once they are activated, we've created an account for them. And they're able to do the entire application process right through our website, they have their own company portal, they're able to fill out their application for approval, as well as invite all of their ingredient and manufacturers to assign individual statements of declarations, they're able to upload their brand information, and even Once approved, license, our logo and create a promotion for all through our website. So everything is done through that. And then if everything brands, it's fairly easy to do. And it's free, I should say that it's free. And I think that's amazing to begin with. We're so proud to also be able to offer a bunch of very promising marketing opportunities to our companies through social media or E news through our website. And so we you know, in a sense function as an influencer, but we don't charge the exorbitant prices to work with companies that for profit influencers do and so we're really, really excited. We have a really robust following on social media. We have a great e newsletter that goes out once a month. And we're really really happy to be able to promote a selection of our companies every month through those different channels. And I will include all the you know how you can get involved I will in the show notes, leaping bunny.org, Leaping Bunny on Instagram, etc. But this question is actually more about you. You guys so much. Okay, and so now I found out in the few years I haven't seen your you're married, you have a child. I know you have your cats too because I know you're a part of rescuing. You will also are a part of a very passionate and compassionate organization that Must tear out your heart as well. And a lot of work that you're doing and to be done, right? How do you? How do you take time for yourself? How do you charge? How do you and knowing what goes on in the industry? And seeing the good, the bad? And I'm sure unfortunately, you see the ugly, how do you recharge? How do you find time for yourself to get present and, and find the energy to continue to do the work? That's a really, really great question. And I appreciate you asking it, I have found that exercising daily is such a great way to recharge, just mentally and physically. I just have so much more energy when I get my 45 minutes of exercise in in the morning. So that's crucial. And this might sound a little cliche, but I really make use of a lot of company's products, I do tons and tons of self care, I do masks I have, you know my different therapies in the works. Okay? Excellent, excellent routines, I really, really take excellent care of my skin, I try to drink lots and lots of water. And you know, I I do try at the end of the day to switch over and become a mom become a partner and you know, really invest in my family so that I can start the next day all refreshed and and, you know, with the same with the same energy and you know, it really helps that I love my job. I mean energy in and of itself and having such great connections and meeting like minded people. And knowing that I'm that I'm doing some good to get the message out that that's that recharges as well, for sure. Well, I know I can speak for everybody at Indy Lee, we appreciate what you do. We appreciate what the entire team does. The spread is is you know has been a part of this. And it has been important to us since day one. And I can't thank you enough for the efforts that you make on a on a daily basis towards creating change in the world that we all want to see. So thank you. Oh, you're so welcome. And, guys, please, please, I really I beg you to look at Leaping Bunny, I beg you to follow them get involved at any different level that you can and really take a look at what they are all about and the passion that the entire team puts into this to make the change not just here in the US but globally. So thank you, Kim, so much for joining me today. Thank you for taking your time out to do this with me. You're welcome. I really appreciate it. I loved it. Oh good, good. And everybody. Follow Leaping Bunny