92: How to Turn Grief Into Growth, With Kirsten Frey

I continue to be enlightened and inspired by my good friend, Kirsten Frey.  She returns for a second time on this episode to share her expertise on recovering from grief and opens us up to the multitude of different kinds of loss. 

We tend to think of the acute sense of loss after a loved one has passed as the primary type of grief, but there are 40 other kinds of valid loss that may not have anything to do with physical death.  The realization that you're never going to be a mother is one of them. 

If you're a woman without kids, or even if you're a mother, this episode is going to blow your mind.  Kirsten and I discuss:

• what "completing" grief is and we answer the question as to whether grief can ever be fully processed and healed
• the difference between tangible and intangible loss
• the importance of acknowledging and feeling your emotions
• why taking action is imperative for moving through grief

Kirsten Frey is a Transitional Life Coach, Advanced Grief Recovery Specialist and Reiki Guide. 

Where to find Kirsten and get her free e-book:

Instagram: @tlclifecoaching
Website: Transitions Life Coaching
E-book: 61 Tips for Moving Through Grief

Where to find Sheri:

Instagram: @sherijohnsoncoaching
Website: sherijohnson.ca

References from this episode:

Awakening Worth Podcast Episode 16: 6 Myths that Prevent Healing from Miscarriage

Where to find Sheri:
Instagram: @sherijohnsoncoaching
Website: sherijohnson.ca

Transcript

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Sheri Johnson 0:00

My guest on the podcast today is a second time guest . She is a transformational life coach , advanced grief recovery specialist and Reiki Guide . Her name is Kirsten Fry . She's my good friend . She was on the podcast back about two at least two years ago and I am really grateful to her for coming back to the podcast . She always has so many inspiring things to share with me and I'm always enlightened in some way , shape or form , and this conversation was no different .

Sheri Johnson 0:36

We got into so many topics , some places I didn't even know we were gonna go , but we did talk about some things that are going to really apply closely to you if you're a woman without children . We talked about what completing grief is , and we answered the question as to whether grief can ever actually be fully processed and healed or not . We talked about the difference between tangible and intangible loss , the importance of acknowledging and feeling your emotions , and why action is so imperative for moving through grief . So if you are someone who wants to know more about all of those topics , then stay tuned . It's such a wonderful conversation . You're gonna love it . I can't wait for you to hear it .

Sheri Johnson 1:25

Hi , I'm Sherri Johnson , and you are about to discover how to embrace your life as a childless woman who wanted to have a family and never could . This is where we combine mindset shifting tools with practical tips so you can break free of outdated societal norms that condition us all to believe that women without kids just don't measure up to the moms . It's where we take action on processing grief and accelerating the healing journey so you can feel free . When childless women awaken their self-worth , they transform from hopeless and inadequate to worthy , accepting and purposeful . Think of this podcast as your weekly dose of light bulb moments that will shift your perspective as a childless woman about yourself , about your any power to change yourself , your future and maybe even the world we live in . If that's what you want , then keep on listening .

Sheri Johnson 2:20

Welcome

Kirsten

Sheri Johnson 2:21

back to the Awakening Worth podcast , and today we have Kirsten Frye with us . I'm so excited . She's a two-time guest , my coming back for a second time , and I'm so excited because we just had so much to talk about the first time . So I am excited to just dive into it , and Kirsten is the type of person who will do that . She is my good friend and I would say peer in the grief sort of industry , if you want to call it an industry in that space , and so I welcome you back , kirsten . I'm happy to have you .

Kirsten Frey 2:55

Oh , thanks , sherry , I'm so happy to be back with you today . What a great way to start the year , too , with a good conversation about this .

Sheri Johnson 3:01

Yes , and our conversations are always good and inspire me and I always have an aha moment , so I can't wait to find out what you're going to blow my mind with today .

Sheri Johnson 3:15

So , for those who do want to go back to that first episode , this was in the first season , when I was still talking a lot about miscarriage , and it's episode 16 . And so if you want to go back to that , please do . I'm going to link that up in the show notes For today . We'll do a little bit of a background , kirsten , so maybe talk to us a little bit about how you came to be doing the work that you do and what exactly is that you do . Well , thank you so much .

Kirsten Frey 3:47

So welcome to all of our listeners . My name is Kirsten Fry . I'm an advanced grief recovery methods specialist and certified life coach . Those are just labels , and the way that I look at my work is that I help people move through the inevitable changes , transitions and losses that we're going to have as we move through this series Life experience of ours , and to be able to do that in a wholesome , wholehearted , healthy way as much as possible . So really I just help people heal their hearts . I love it . Can you talk a little ?

Sheri Johnson 4:27

bit about your story and what got you interested in this area , what led you to this work ? Well , that's a good question .

Kirsten Frey 4:37

So , as you move , through this series and so , as you know , I've moved through a few careers in my lifetime . I was a police officer for 18 years , I was a personal trainer and holistic nutritionist for eight years , and for the last six years I've been doing this work , and what I love about this is that my own journey , like so many of us , has brought us here . So in my lifetime , both personally and professionally , I have experienced many of my own changes , transitions and losses , including miscarriage , including divorce , including moving and losing loved ones , both personally and professionally . Professionally , I've lost friends and colleagues to violence and suicide . So you know , my story is no bigger than anyone else's story and we all have it .

Kirsten Frey 5:31

But the pivotal point for me was when I was 48 , I found out that I was adopted , and so this was a big one for me , because my adoption had been kept secret my entire life and at that point , everyone that had information that could share it with me had already died . So I was sort of left with this sense of it just couldn't put me back to where I was in my childhood and feeling this sort of disconnection between my parents . My parents were lovely people , you know . We had everything we needed and most of what we wanted , but they were emotionally distant and I never could understand that growing up and it was always sort of a problem for me and I sort of adopted to that and moved on and became very resilient and independent as a result of that and this just kind of threw me all the way back there . So I thought I had already dealt with this situation but it whole brought up this whole sense of a loss of identity . It brought up this sense of I had done therapeutic work around my relationship with my parents and it just kind of brought me back to some of those things . And the biggest thing for me was this resentment around this secret had kept our family from being a close knit family , which is all I've ever wanted , was this sense of connection and closeness . And I feel like that's what secrets do is that they put up a barrier to the love , care , compassion and support that we all need .

Kirsten Frey 6:59

So I moved through that process , like most of us do intellectually , and I adapted to the information . Obviously I had an emotional response to it , but I kind of moved through it and sorted it out in my head and made the decision whether or not to search for my biological family or not , which I chose not to , and kind of moved on with my life . But 18 months later I was having heart palpitations , anxiety attacks , which I had never had , even as a police officer , and so , having been a personal trainer as well , at that time I was very familiar with my body and how it felt , and this was very unusual . Like this did not feel like me . I was confused and , like concerned Doctors said nothing was absolutely nothing wrong with me .

Kirsten Frey 7:46

So I was lucky enough to have found a woman through a networking group who did read recovery work , and I spoke with her and I started working through the program with her and , honestly , sherry , the first like this session , the first session I was like this . This is the missing puzzle piece for me , and what I love about this program is that it's not therapy or counseling . It's an education program that has action tools in it that give us a sense of being able to move through all these different experiences that we're going to have . And what's great about it is that , once you know it , you can use it for any loss that you have moving through your life or any transition that you're having , and I continue to use it to this day . So I find it very powerful and I know people use the word transformational a lot , but for me it was indeed that .

Sheri Johnson 8:38

Yeah , I love it and I've started to work through at least the book myself . I don't feel like it's interesting , and I think I'm probably not the only one out there who feels like this . But I haven't had a ton of loss in my life . Obviously , you're aware I had three miscarriages . I wanted children . I was never able to have them , and so I feel that loss as well .

Sheri Johnson 9:02

But I also have spent my entire life pushing down my emotions , so I think I've actually had more loss in my life than I even am willing to admit , or that I've sort of pushed aside and I don't even realize that it's there . It's so far down I don't even know how to reach it . I ordered their book , actually , and have started to take a look at the philosophy , and I haven't started doing the work yet , but I'm kind of excited to just get a closer look at what it's all about , cause it's been so transformational for you and , of course , now your clients . It was transformational enough that you now you got trained in this process , and so that is pretty impactful .

Kirsten Frey 9:52

Yeah , and I love it because it's just another tool for people's toolboxes and when it comes to our health and wellbeing on any level physical , mental , emotional , spiritual you know the bigger the toolbox the better , because you never know which tool you're going to need and pull out of there . And what I love about this is it doesn't take the place of therapy or counseling at all . I have a deep respect for those methodologies and know that it's helpful in a lot of cases . I also know that some people either are not open to therapy and counseling , so this is an alternative for them , and I've had clients that are in therapy and do this program with me as well , and it actually opens up their therapy with their therapist and really deepens that experience for them for other things . So yeah , I think , there's never .

Kirsten Frey 10:42

It's never this or that . It's often an and .

Sheri Johnson 10:47

I totally agree and it's , you know , to me it's a little bit like exercise programs , you know , like one person will do yoga and another person will do Pilates and another person is going to do both , and maybe weights and or renting , like we have all of these things and we each gravitate towards several of them in order to stay well . So I see it as a similar thing , a complimentary , you know , like yoga and running , oh my gosh , it's so complimentary . So I see therapy and , and what I do and what you do , and there , you know , it's just up to the person to find what resonates for them , right , yeah ?

Kirsten Frey 11:32

And sometimes it's even what resonates for you at that time , because I think we've all done done things like even using your physical activity , one like before I used to do distance running and now my body is not all about that anymore , so it's more strength training and and that kind of thing . So I think there's things that serve us at certain points in our lives . And then there's , you know , the opportunity for other things to come in and help us . It's just we tend to go back to those things that have worked for us and when they don't , it's , you know , a little bit confusing and then problematic after that .

Sheri Johnson 12:07

Yeah , that is so true , and then things show up at certain times in our lives and are useful at certain times , and then and then you might be done with them . That's okay , absolutely . So one of the things that I really wanted to ask you and we started to talk about this before we jumped on

Grief and Healing

Sheri Johnson 12:25

and this is this is a little bit of a controversial topic , but it's talked about a fair bit in the childless space and probably in the grief space on on Instagram , social media , and so I wanted to ask your thoughts about it . I want to know if you believe that grief can be fully healed , fully processed . There's this idea floating around that grief is always there . You never heal from it . You never , you never get through it or you never get past it . You just heal around it or you grow around it , and I really wanted to get your thoughts on it , because I'm I'm too minds about it myself , so tell me what you think .

Kirsten Frey 13:13

That's such a good question . I could . I've seen that . I've seen that same discussion on the online space as well , and what I believe is that loss is universal but grief is personal . So how you move through your grieving process is up to you . Do I believe that grief can be processed ? Yes , I do . Do I believe that we can heal from grief ? Yes , I do .

Kirsten Frey 13:38

The key is often we haven't had enough tools . So if you don't have the tools to help you with that particular process , you may feel like things are left unresolved for you . And , honestly , that's what came through for me , like I came to grief recovery not through an acute loss like the loss of a loved one , even though I have had that happen in my life . It was an unresolved grief for me . Right , it was this finding out I was adopted and then moving through that process with my specialist . At the time , it helped me realize like , oh , and there were these other circumstances in my past that I thought I had dealt with and I had on an intellectual level , which is us adapting to the change , transition or loss that we're moving through .

Kirsten Frey 14:26

But adapting isn't healing . Adapting is usually how we figure things out in our head or we make sense of . We're trying to make sense of something that sometimes you can't make sense out of . But the problem with that is that grief isn't logical , it's emotional . So when we try to use our head to heal our heart , it is the wrong tool for the job . It's literally like if you took a toothbrush and tried to paint an entire room . It would take a really long time , it wouldn't do a very good job . You'd probably have to go over it again with the proper tools . Yeah , and so it's not effective .

Kirsten Frey 15:00

It's not effective , so it's not an effective tool from that point , and I think it's just a lot of the messaging or the conditioning that we've received around grief because , let's face it , even though loss is universal , nobody talks about it really right ?

Kirsten Frey 15:16

It's this really uncomfortable , awkward I don't know what to say conversation , and so we avoid it , and yet we're all going to move through this . So there's so many of us that are walking around wounded or have had these wounds in the past that maybe we haven't fully moved through . And in my experience , what I find is that when we do have unresolved grief , it will leak out into other areas of our life , whether that's in your physical health and your relationships and your career . You know all of these things , and so that's why I love the grief recovery method , because there's an educational component that helps us have a conversation about what is it that you've learned about grief growing up Like what did you learn from , either absorbing family members when you were little , all the way up through your own personal experiences , and how many of those things that you learned then were they actually effective for you ? And we talk about them as being myths in grief recovery these things that we've learned that aren't really effective and actually keep us from moving through those changes .

Sheri Johnson 16:19

Well , and one of those , yeah , one of those that well , yes , all of those come into play here , but the one thing that you said that really stood out to me that I think a lot of childless women do , when you were talking about your experience of having found out that you were adopted after your parents had passed and you're 48 , you know did you even acknowledge that that was grief , that you were trying to move through , like that would have , I'm guessing , would have brought up all kinds of different emotions ? Oh yeah , did you recognize it as grief ? Because I think people are walking around feeling grief and ignoring it or shoving it down , burying it , whatever you want to call that , because they haven't even acknowledged or realized that it's grief .

Kirsten Frey 17:13

So brilliant that question , because that is the truth , or at least it was for me .

Kirsten Frey 17:18

And to answer your question , no , I would never have called that grief per se . It was definitely a shock within my system , like I could feel an emotional , superb reaction hearing those words and having a lot of feelings around the things that had happened .

Understanding what is Grief

Kirsten Frey 17:35

But , like you said , what happens with grief , I think , is most of us have grown up learning or believing that grief is just the acute sadness that we feel when there's a loss of a loved one or maybe if we're moving through a divorce . We attribute grief to those kinds of circumstances , but we don't attribute grief to the 40 other life experiences that we will move through potentially in this life of ours that can create these feelings of grief . So grief isn't just the acute sadness we feel with a loss . That's one of the definitions of grief . But one of the other definitions that we use in the grief recovery method is that grief is also all the conflicting emotions we have when there's an end of something or a change in a familiar pattern of behavior .

Kirsten Frey 18:24

Right , so , let's look at retirement , say , for example , which a lot of people would see as a positive experience , right , no more having to punch the clock and all those kinds of things . And what I find is that for the first little while people are pretty happy about it . But sometimes what happens is we are emotionally incomplete with that part of our lives . So most of us work in a career for 25 , 30 , some odd plus years and we are attached , maybe , to our identity of the work that we do . So , for example , I was a police officer for 18 years . So of course , every time you're in a social situation , what's the first question people ask you Nobody , you do right , and so we identify with the role that we play at work . Plus , we have all these other relationships at work right With either the people we work with , the people we go for coffee with , the people we're in meetings with our clients , whatever the case is . So when that comes to an end , potentially there's all the loss of that , like you're getting up at a certain time that you having a purpose to go to work , right . So sometimes that can feel like a loss of purpose for people going for retirement , and they're usually good for about the first month to two months , but when it goes beyond , like what a normal vacation , maybe , period would look like . That's where , all of a sudden , it's this sense of like I'm in this in between , where I'm retired , but if I haven't gotten something sort of like I have plans for my future , it's just like we'll just kind of go as we go .

Kirsten Frey 19:55

You have to say goodbye emotionally to that one period of your life before you can actually fully step into this next period of your life . And it's the same with relationships and so on . So we tend to , you know , move through some of the emotions , but maybe not all of them . And so , grief , there's a lot of conflicting emotions . There can be anger , resentment , bitterness , relief . There can be like all kinds of feelings that maybe you know . So if you're feeling angry about a loss or a change or a transition that you're moving for , often what I find is anger is often griefs bodyguard . So typically when someone's like really angry , if we dig a little and ask a few questions , there's actually a loss underneath that somehow , whether it's a loss of respect or it's a , it's a reaction to another time in life where you felt the same way and you had no agency over yourself so often when we're younger , where we don't have control over our surroundings and our environment .

Kirsten Frey 20:58

We adapt because that's what we do as human beings and so then , as we carry through , if we're not resolved with these losses that we've had , when there's a new loss , it's not just the new loss but any of the other ones that we haven't fully completed . Now sometimes we are fully complete emotionally with things , like as I went through the program myself as a , as a client , I could see , like in my history of losses , if you'd like to call it that , there were losses I experienced that I had no emotional charge about anymore , like I was completely neutral about it . I could see it from the perspective that it was and it had no like emotional charge , as I said , and there were several that where I could see where I was emotionally incomplete still , which was a surprise for me because I would have thought like I was over it . Yeah .

Sheri Johnson 21:49

But that's the difference between it's adapting and healing right .

Sheri Johnson 21:53

Yes , well , and that's you know , that's what we call triggers , right , they come out later as anger or resentment or something that makes you react . Something I wanted to go back to was just your example around retirement , because everything that you said in there was fascinating . It was almost like you described exactly all the things that a childless woman feels , like you kind of there's , no , there's no tangible loss there . Maybe there is for the women who have had a miscarriage or have lost an infant or have . There's there is a tangible loss there , but for a lot of them it's the , it's the dream that they've lost . But what you said about retirement that was so interesting was that there's this , it's kind of the end of this period , like a lot of women will come to the end of their reproductive years and not only are they grieving okay , now I'm here at the end of my reproductive years , so that's already like a lot of women already grieve that , even if they are mothers . But then there's okay , now I'm at the end of this journey and I have this future ahead of me .

Sheri Johnson 23:06

And even for me , you know the first , after Mike , my husband and I made this decision to not pursue any more fertility treatments . We were sort of like okay , we're going to be happy with our life . I sort of like had this relief that we had made the decision I had . I was actually kind of excited because I was sort of like we've had a pretty good life . We can travel , we can , you know , we can go work remotely from summer , we can do things that that most families won't have an opportunity to do .

Sheri Johnson 23:39

But then , after about a month , then some of these things started to sink in , I suppose , and I started to realize , oh , okay , that life and the identity that you mentioned , as well as a retiree , you'd have this identity as an employee or an executive or whatever it was you were doing , and we have this identity first as someone who wanted to be a mother . So there's an identity we have to give up , so I no longer am trying to be a mother . So now , what am I and what's my purpose and what does my future look like ? So I feel like you know you provided a very different example , but there were so many similarities in how you describe that it was really fascinating .

Kirsten Frey 24:30

Well , it's such a perfect example when we look at childless women , regardless of whether you weren't able to have children at all or you lost a child somewhere in that process .

Sheri Johnson 24:41

So or never sorry , or just didn't even have the opportunity to try .

Kirsten Frey 24:46

Exactly so . All of those are very different circumstances and so we all will move through our loss experiences uniquely , right ? So you know myself that I had two miscarriages and you had miscarriages , and so we have a similar experience of having miscarriages . But your experience and your relationship to your body and all your hope streams and expectations that you had for starting a family are unique to you and to me . So for me to say I know how you feel would be grossly inaccurate . But I know how I felt when I moved through that similar experience . But I would never say I know how you feel because I don't like .

Kirsten Frey 25:28

The truth is you never know how someone else feels moving through a loss , even if it's similar to yours

Intangible Loses

Kirsten Frey 25:34

, and the intangible grief , like the intangible losses , pardon me , are just as like . We don't minimize or maximize losses in this program and , like you know , in the book they talk about I don't know if you've gotten to that part yet where one of the authors is at a dinner party and he's sitting next to a woman who he knows is just moving through a divorce . So he asks her how she is doing and she says oh , you know , I'm kind of moving through it , but I can't complain because their hostess is dealing with cancer and so , like God forbid that I should complain about my divorce . But we all feel our grief at 100% for ourselves and so there's no minimizing or maximizing loss , losses , loss and how we move through it is just we do the best that we can and the intangible losses are sometimes , for some of us , the hardest ones . Because when you look at like loss of trust , loss of safety , loss of purpose , loss of identity and these are us at our core and often , like I don't know anyone that hasn't had a loss of trust experience in their lifetime especially if you , if you've been walking the planet for a amount of time we , you have experienced a loss of trust somehow along the way , and that has you question everything .

Kirsten Frey 26:50

And this is part of the reason why it's important to do the work around becoming emotionally complete For as much as you know at the time , because , as you know , sometimes other losses come in and then there's another layer of the onion that comes off and you're like , oh hello , that's there now and I didn't even know that was there . But it's important to look at the emotional components of it and how is that impacting you ? Because our emotions , as you know , our energy and motion and they are messengers for us . So there's , whenever there's a feeling that comes up for us , especially if it's a difficult emotion , it's a message for us that there's something unhealed still from either this newest loss that you're going through , which is creating the feeling , or perhaps it is reminiscent of another loss that you had earlier in your lifetime . And this is the part where people kind of get lost a little bit , and so yeah , I think it's really important .

Kirsten Frey 27:49

The intangible losses are just as difficult as the tangible losses . Yeah , yeah , no less grief provoking .

Sheri Johnson 28:00

Well , and if you think about it , you know a loss of trust . You know , the first thing that comes to mind for me is infidelity or secrecy , lot like some , some sort of trust issue within a partnership , of marriage , a relationship , and we don't even think of relationships yes , absolutely Any kind of relationship . There's so many different opportunities for a loss of trust but we don't . But even within you know what we think of as our closest relationship the one with our , with a partner or a spouse . I don't know that we think of that as grief , that loss of like if , say , a spouse was unfaithful , I mean until the marriage breaks down , we think of that as warranted of grief . But I don't think we actually think about just that initial loss of trust as really kind of a separate loss from the marriage breakdown .

Kirsten Frey 29:00

So good , yeah , I love that . And it's ironic that you're bringing this up to date , because I just saw something on Instagram that there was a quote on there or a comment from someone that was doing a post , and it was around like these paper cuts that we have in our relationships where it's like it's a little and that's so like a sharp word or a derogatory comment or making fun of or something , where it's like a little paper cut which is like not a big deal we think of , but you keep getting these paper cuts and each time it's still a little hurt and I feel like that is like a really good opportunity to a set of boundaries . So there's the awareness of like ooh , that kind of hurt my feelings , like that remark or how you responded or whatever , setting a boundary around like let's have some communication around . Okay , what did you mean when you actually said that ? And maybe the person was just not conscious or present in the moment . It made a throwaway comment or is having a crappy day and kind of took it out on you for that split moment .

Kirsten Frey 30:03

And so it's an opportunity to heal that paper cut in that moment versus we don't say anything , we don't communicate , we don't set those healthy boundaries and have compassion for one another as human beings who are gonna make mistakes and not always show up as our bright , shiny selves and all of the rest of it . But instead of dealing with it in the moment , it builds and it builds , and it builds and it builds , until there's some like incident perhaps where now we can point at that and say that's the reason . But when we look back we can say there were all these micro hurts or losses along the way that we just didn't either acknowledge or want to speak up about because it's like well , overall , everything's good , so why would I rock the boat or why would I have potentially a challenging conversation ? But what I like to say is that if you are not willing to have the difficult conversation , you will have to deal with a difficult situation .

Sheri Johnson 30:57

Yes , that's so true , yeah

Grief is cumulative

Sheri Johnson 31:00

yeah . So I'm just looking at my questions here , but one of the things that I wanted to bring back up that we talked about on our earlier episode was this idea of grief being cumulative when it's not completed , and you've touched on it already , just with this idea that a loss can actually feel reminiscent of an earlier loss in our life , and so then you're also feeling the hurt , the pain from that . So can you elaborate on this idea of grief being kind of cumulative if you keep tucking it away or intellectualizing it or all the things that we do to sort of get through it ?

Kirsten Frey 31:45

Yeah , emotions are meant to be expressed , right . They're meant to like E-motion , so energy and motion within our body , which means it's supposed to move . And actually the timeframe , the lifespan of an emotion I think maximum is 90 seconds Like to have an emotion actually roll through you . It's our thoughts about that feeling that's come up , that keep us in the emotion . So this emotion comes up and we're like , oh , I'm sad . And then we have some thoughts about why am I sad and it's like , oh , this happened and this happened . And then we're thinking about it and then that creates more of the feelings and so we end up in this rotation of the feelings . So we are creating that emotion , even if the experience was something that happened last week , last month , 10 years ago , whatever the case is .

Kirsten Frey 32:31

So grief is cumulative , which is why it's so important and this is why I'm so passionate about this . Like we gotta talk about these things because we're all gonna move through it . Nobody is exempt . If you're human , you're gonna be moving through grief multiple times in your life in varying degrees . So the cumulation I'll use a relationship as an example . So let's just start off . You're in middle school or high school where you have your first like real love , right when you feel like you're in love , all in heart is open , we are in it and then , for whatever reason , that relationship doesn't work out and so we're hurt and devastated and heartbroken , and often our parents around us , the people who care about us and don't like to see us hurting our friends and that kind of thing . You'll typically hear things like don't feel bad , there's plenty of fish in the sea , like that is such a big cliche that they're actually .

Kirsten Frey 33:25

I don't even know if it's still a dating app or not , but that used to be a dating app . Plenty of fish .

Sheri Johnson 33:30

Yeah , I remember that .

Kirsten Frey 33:32

It's such a cliche . They actually put a dating app around that which tackles one of the myths that we talk about in Griefer Covery , which is replacing the loss not feeling bad and then replacing a loss so he or she didn't deserve you . And people tell us these well-meaning and well-intentioned things , but that doesn't actually do anything about how we are feeling in that moment . It doesn't deal with the actual pain of our heartbreak . So we adapt to the change and the loss and we move on , but we haven't really dealt with the heartbreak . So then the next time we get into a relationship we're older now , more mature and we get into this relationships , but anything that wasn't resolved from that earlier relationship , you are carrying it like baggage into your next relationship , and so is your partner If they haven't resolved what was incomplete for them in their former relationships . So we have two incomplete people , your whole as a person , yourself , but in terms of your emotions , if you haven't resolved those earlier relationships , you're bringing whatever was outstanding from that relationship into this one , which can create sabotage in our new relationships , because now we're gonna be reactive I don't like using the word triggered we find ourselves reactive to something our partner might say , even though it's a different partner , not the same situation , but it's reminiscent of like feeling disrespected or not heard or whatever in our first relationship and we may be either overreacting or shutting down in that relationship and then we're not creating an opportunity for us to move forward as a couple in this relationship . And that can continue to happen and happen depending on where you're going . That can also have an effect on family members . That can you can do , that can happen in family friendships , all of these things right .

Kirsten Frey 35:26

So it really is so important for us to move , to recognize that when we're moving through , it doesn't just have to be of a light , like I said , a loss , like a death or a divorce or something like that . It could be any change or transition . This is what I really want people to understand that it's any change or transition that you're moving through . Maybe there is no real emotion to that , maybe you're moving through that change and transition no problem , even if it is a significant one . But there might be other ones that are like , ooh , I'm having some feelings around this , like moving . Say , you've lived in this home , you raised your kids in this home and now you're moving , you're downsizing , your kids are out on their own doing their own thing and you go to pack up the house and it's like whoa . We are just awash with all of these feelings .

Kirsten Frey 36:09

I have friends in real estate that talk about you know their clients moving through like and being surprised that there's such an emotion to go with it . But it's all the memories that you had in that place , all the good times you had in that place . So I often tell people like , if you're moving and if your family's open to it , no one has to do it . Everybody can do it , some can do it , some not . But I often say like , if you go room to room and just say like appreciation and gratitude for those rooms and the memories that you had and what that house meant to you and maybe the backyard was where you had family get-togethers and parties and to say goodbye to that home and everything that it provided you before you move into the next one . And a lot of people find that very cathartic and very healing and much easier to move on .

Tools

Sheri Johnson 37:02

Well , in drawing that back to my listeners who are childless , there's two things that you said there . One was , you know , we think of the loss . You know the loss of a dream , the loss of a future that we imagined . But it's also a transition . It's a big change , like you're moving from okay , I spent , all of you know , most of my adult life either , you know , trying to find that partner who I could have kids with , or on a fertility journey or whatever it is , you know , in the pursuit of this thing motherhood in our case and now you're , you know , as you come to the end of your fertile years , is really when people realize this , whether that is because of menopause or because they've had to have a hysterectomy at 30 , whatever it is , they're coming to the end . They are transitioning from okay , I'm on this pursuit to now I am on this totally different train track that I didn't expect to be on . So there's this big change , transition in , like it's a big mind shift that you've got to make .

Sheri Johnson 38:18

But then the other thing that you said , and something that we do inside of my group immersion is a dream memorial and I sort of think of that as what you were suggesting going room to room . You know you're sort with a dream memorial . What we do is sort of acknowledge acknowledge the journey that we've been on and have some gratitude for the lessons that we learned , the people that we met along the way , the you know , all of the things that that journey brought , and say goodbye to that past but also say goodbye to the dream that we imagined and welcome in a new future . So it's , I think what you're really saying is this idea of ceremony or the intentional acknowledgement of the loss , and moving forward can be really helpful and cathartic .

Kirsten Frey 39:23

Yeah , and often necessary , like even from the example of , like COVID , right , when we all went through the pandemic and we were locked down all those times and I really was helping a lot of people through that process , because all of our regular ways we had of managing stress or to work through difficult emotions were not available to us at that time . Every how we did life was completely changed for almost two years . So how we went to work , how we went to school , how we visited with people , how we shopped , like even our recreational activities you know , no gym , no dance studios , no yoga studios and those kinds of things and so not being able to go to funerals and like 10 people only , and people had to put off their weddings and all of these things that happen . And ceremony and ritual are an important part , and they have been for as long as there have been tribal beings . Right , we are tribal beings . We are not meant to be moving through this life alone . We are meant to do this in connection with one another , and so I love that you did this dream memorial , because it is about saying goodbye to that piece and that was your purpose for however long you were moving through that . You know there was time , energy , money , focus that was going into that pursuit and then having to say goodbye to that . Of course , you're going to have feelings around that , of course , and we need to acknowledge that and all the things that you learned moving through that process and being able to say goodbye to that and then , as you said you know , open up the possibility of a new future and new dreams and new desires .

Kirsten Frey 41:04

Now , and what does that look like ?

Kirsten Frey 41:06

And what we tend to forget is there's this like gap in between and I call it the void , where it's a very I don't want to say dark , like scary , but it's an empty space , right when we are now no longer attached to that identity of who we were in terms of wanting to create a family , and we're not yet where we want to be .

Kirsten Frey 41:32

So we're kind of in this in between phase , which is a holy place . It's a sacred space as far as I'm concerned , because it's where we get quiet and still and we really allow that internal work to move through us and really listen to what our bodies have to share with us , both from a logical heart , intuitive space , and this is where you know there's so many people that have tools like yourself that can help people move through that void space . And there's no time frame for that , like we have to remind ourselves like , hey , you just don't take a week and then you're over it and let's go through it , right ? It's like you'll take as much time as you need and it's not something that you can arbitrarily decide in your head . You'll know when you know when you go through it , right . And so I think it's very important that we have those times to be able to do that and learn to be comfortable in the uncomfortable space of the void , of the in between .

Sheri Johnson 42:30

Yes ,

Tips

Sheri Johnson 42:32

so the last question I had for you was just around how , like what tips you would have for people , and I've already heard you say three things and I'll give you the opportunity to add in anything on . But what I heard from you over the course of our conversation was emotions are energy in motion . We need to allow that energy to move through us . So that was number one that I heard . Number two was this acknowledgement and ceremony ritual , allowing yourself that intentional time to say goodbye , welcome in something different , whatever that may be at the time . And then the third thing that you just said was this as a way to get through this sort of limbo period , the void , the dark space , is to just sit in silence and allow what I'm hearing . You didn't say these exact words , but what I was hearing was sit in silence and allow in what needs to come through that's going to guide you to the next phase of that relationship life , whatever it is .

Kirsten Frey 43:46

Yeah , it's giving yourself the patience and the compassion and the stillness . I find that's often a really good time for us to reconnect with nature , because we tend to not spend a lot of time outdoors , and there's something very healing about being in the natural space and , yes , we're in the wintertime right now , but , you know , and we like to be cozy inside our homes , but , you know , taking a walk and feeling that brisk , sharp kind of wind on our face can also help rejuvenate us . You know , if you have a favorite space you like to go , whether it's in the forest or on the beach or wherever you like to go , there is healing that can come from that space . There's a bomb for our soul when we go to places like that , or looking up at the stars or being up with the sunrise , you know , whatever it is for you that brings you to that point of connection , we're so disconnected from ourselves and what grief does is it actually brings us an opportunity to connect back in side . So much of our focus is external and it allows you to come in . The rest of the world is going to go by and you are stepping out for a little bit and taking a pause , and that pause is necessary before you step back into the .

Kirsten Frey 44:59

You know , sometimes it's annoying for us when we've moved through a significant loss , where it's like life is just going on and meanwhile , like you're devastated and your whole world has been turned upside down and it's like how is this even like ? How is life even just still going on ? It's almost like angering right when that happens , but it's an invitation for you to step away . Step away and take the time that you need to reconnect . What I would remind people is that you're not alone . Even though often it feels like you're alone , we are not alone . And also that action is one of the steps that you need to take in your grieving process when you're ready to do that . So , for your example of the Dream Memorial is beautiful . Like , however you create that for yourself , that's an action . You're taking an action to do that .

Kirsten Frey 45:47

People who reach out to yourself or myself for assistance as they move through this change . That's an action step . Like it doesn't have to be a whole huge shift . It can just be that one baby step , that one . Whatever you feel that you have within you to do that and to give yourself the grace to move through a difficult experience , you'll actually move through it . It's not about quicker , but you will move through it more easily and with less time than if you're trying to avoid it . Disconnect , get involved with other things , focus on other people , be externally focused because you can do that for a period of time and it will work for a period of time , but inevitably , those feelings are still going to be there , and that's what happened to me . 18 months later , after this , I was having actual physical manifestations of my emotional state and I recognize that as like okay , I am outside of my scope of what yeah , I know how to deal with this , and so I needed to ask for help .

Kirsten Frey 46:51

So yeah , no , no , literally Each other home right yeah we're just helping each other home and so just give yourself the grace to move through this period .

Sheri Johnson 47:02

Yeah , I agree 100% and I love like the nature thing that is . That was so healing for me . I got my my pup , who's sitting behind me here , he we got him just after my first miscarriage , not because of that we were looking for dogs before that anyway . But we got an Australian shepherd and he is full of energy and so I had to walk whether I liked it or not , and I got out of that more than I could ever have imagined , that time In nature . And we I like the forest , so we hiked . We hike in the forest , we still do you .

Sheri Johnson 47:41

I see your host and , and that connection with nature allowed me to connect with myself . I love the way you said that grief can offer us something right . Like it's we think of , grief is all bad , but it offers you an opportunity to connect back with yourself and , oh my goodness , our world so needs that .

Kirsten Frey 48:06

Yes , and that's another reason why I love it , because grief is just , it's the opposite side of the coin to joy . So if you don't allow yourself to Fully acknowledge and honor your grief when you're moving through it , you will also not be able to fully honor and express your joy . And this is what happens . We avoid the difficult emotions and you can't not feel half of the human emotional spectrum and expect to feel the other half . It doesn't work that way and then our world becomes this very controlled space and Then we're missing out . So yes , it's painful , and nobody like willingly steps into pain like that . But when we're in that process of moving through a loss , it's like there is an opportunity for deep healing and awareness and knowledge and wisdom that we may not get in any other way and that I feel like anyone that's moved through Something significant like that . I think it only makes us more compassionate as human beings and it allows us to be able to hold that space for other people in our lives when they move through their own grieving experiences .

Sheri Johnson 49:17

Oh , I so agree . And has the opposite effect , like I find , when , when I run into someone who and this is happening several times people of my , my parents generation who had miscarriages . They haven't processed their own pain and they cannot be there for mine , they cannot sit with me in mine . In fact , they're less compassionate as a result . Yes , so it's that was a really Interesting point yeah .

Kirsten Frey 49:44

Yeah , it's . It's so powerful when we come from that space , because I often get asked because you know I'm pretty upbeat and one of the I always call us the bright , shiny people Most of the time but I get people say this to me all the time like how , how do you do this work ? Like , isn't it really depressing listening to people's really difficult , sad , sometimes traumatic stories that they have to share with you and and I honestly look at that it's one of the most Tremendous honors that I have in my life is to listen to someone else's life experience and to hold that space for them as they move through it .

Kirsten Frey 50:24

Like it is a privilege to be able to do that work and so no , because I don't take it on . I always say like I am an empath and an empathetic person , but I'm not an empath .

Kirsten Frey 50:36

I think that's my background , and policing that allows me to sit in difficult or heavy Situations with people and not take it on as my own , because if I'm taking on someone else's pain , I mean that's I can't help them then , like you said , for the people that separate and can't be in that painful space with you , if you're someone who's like , wants to like , help and fix and what's broken , and it's like that is not my Responsibility to do that right , like they're moving through their experience for their own Healing and for whatever purpose , that they're moving through it , and for me to think I can take away their pain is egoic because , yes , I can't , you can't take away their pain , but I can sit with them so that they're not suffering alone , that they're not moving through that experience by themselves , that they don't feel all alone and that there is someone to hear them , to understand them right and to be with them , and so , yeah , I think it's valuable to do that and it brings me a lot of joy to be able to do that for other people , because , I know and I am like to hope for other people to hold that space for me .

Sheri Johnson 51:44

Yes , well , I'm so glad that you do this work . I think that is a great segue to when can people find you ?

Kirsten Frey 51:54

Yeah , so I am on Instagram and Facebook , primarily Instagram , so you can find me at TLC life coaching on Instagram . I also have a website , wwwtlclcoachingcom , and you can reach out to me from there . And , sherry , I'm going to give you a link so that you can put it in the show notes , just for an e-book that's available for people if they're interested in sort of knowing more about , like , this definition of grief and what it all means and and that kind of thing , and just so that way they have it for themselves and and they're I'm happy for people to share that link with anyone in their lives that they feel might like it .

Sheri Johnson 52:34

Beautiful . Yeah , I'll link those all up in the show notes . Thank you so much . This has been an enlightening conversation . I so appreciate you coming back and spending this time with me . Thank you .

Kirsten Frey 52:44

Thank you for the invitation . It's always nice to be interviewed by you .

Sheri Johnson 52:48

So there you have it , my conversation with Kirsten Frye on the awakening worth podcast . If you found some value in this episode , I would love it if you headed over to Instagram and told me what your favorite part was . I'm a Sherry Nonsense coaching , or , and Go over to wherever you listen to your podcast and rate and review the show . I would be forever grateful . Stay tuned for next week's episode . We've got more great stuff coming your way .