Ep. 3: Jeff Everage - Wim Hof Method, Deep Connection, Asking for Help

Jay sits down with entrepreneur and ex Navy Seal Officer, Jeff Everage. Jeff is a certified Wim Hof Method instructor, and Jay actually got to attend one of his classes and get in the ice bath with everyone. Jay and Jeff discuss aspects of the breath work and cold exposure, involved in the method – and they explore the underlying theme of connection that seems to be at the center of all of the work Jeff does. One such example is the Hold Me Tight couples workshops Jeff runs with his significant other, and Jay's colleague Cristina Trette, LMFT. About two-thirds of the way through Jeff gets very vulnerable and shares about a major childhood trauma he experienced. It really goes to show, whatever your outward impressions of someone are, you never truly know what hardships they have faced in their lives.

Jeff's Website: https://www.jeffeverage.com/

Wim Hof Vice Documentary

www.comingintofocus.org
Instagram: @comingintofocus

Transcript

spk_1:   0:01
This is coming into focus. The podcast about all things mental health, and I'm your host. Jay Wick Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. The today's show. I sit down with entrepreneur, an ex Navy SEAL officer, Jeff Average. Jeff is a certified Wim Hof method instructor, and a couple of months back, I actually had the privilege of attending one of his classes, and I got to jump in the ice bath with everyone. But since today's show is about Jeff, I'm not really going to get into the details of who Wim Hof is. However, I will put a link in the show notes to a pretty rad documentary about him that I highly suggest. Watching that said, Jeff and I discuss aspects of the breath, work and cold exposure involved in the method, and we explore the underlying theme of connection that seems to be at the center of all of the work that Jeff does, such as thehunt Me Tight Couples, workshops that Jeff runs with his significant other and my colleague Kristina Tread E, who is also a licensed marriage and family therapist. Also at the beginning of this recording, on this day, Jeff made the offhand comment that he might cry at some point, and I sort of laughed it off, not thinking that this Navy seal who I was sitting here laughing and joking around with was going to get that vulnerable with me. But I was mistaken and about 2/3 of the way through Jeff gets very vulnerable, insures about a major childhood trauma he experienced, which honestly caught me off guard. And really, this just goes to show you that whatever your outward impressions of someone are, you never truly know what hardships they've faced in their lives. I'm so appreciative of Jeff for being willing to share with me and you all. And I really hope everyone enjoys this interview as much as I did. Oh, and also, this is the first episode that I recorded outside of my little studio that I built in my home office. Um, so please bear with the occasional bumps and squeaking of chairs. Part of this podcast journey for myself is honestly being willing to dive into something new and unknown and just figure it out along the way, which, honestly, being willing to make some mistakes is the only way you ever really get better at anything. So that said please enjoy. Yes. Oh, how you and I came into contact, I guess, was through. I had been seeing your whim off trainings for a bit

spk_0:   2:38
on instagram. Yeah. All right. On

spk_1:   2:40
and through your, uh, significant other. You know, I had seen her posting things, and I know her. And so

spk_0:   2:46
So you you didn't use your name, but Kristina Treaty, marriage license merchant family therapist in Solano Beach and insidious. Yeah, we'll

spk_1:   2:53
plug her. Um, yes. Oh, I had seen her posting things, but I have been kind of turned on tau women off way before any of that. And I was listening to all the research and watching videos on vice and things with him, and then even got to a point where, without really knowledge of the breath work or anything else. I was last winter getting in my pool, which was probably 50. But I mean, yeah, to a point where I was in the beginning, I couldn't even stay in for 30 seconds, and it was just tastes just sucking the breath out of me on dhe. Then maybe it was too long. I don't know But after a while, I was just chilling in the pool for, like, five minutes and not really uncomfortable and actually kind of looking forward to it, you know? So it was exciting to actually come to the workshop, get to be led through it, learned some other stuff about it. Um, so maybe that's a good place to jump in with. Some of this is how did you How did you find yourself in this space where you're now leading these works up

spk_0:   3:58
the agri question. And, you know, I tell the story at least a part of the story in the workshop itself. So this is Ah, spoiler alert for anyone who's come to the workshop. And I hope you will. But my personal story is I'm in a organization called Entrepreneurs Organization and we just do events. So, you know, I wouldn't still be separate business from the workshops and the coaching that I do. And, uh and ah s o in Entrepreneurs Organization CEO Ah, the this one guy, Adam Winer. Great guy. He set up in an event. He's like, I'm just gonna deal with off event and he wants to go. And I was like. Yeah, sure, I'll do it. I didn't even actually know who Wim Hof was.

spk_1:   4:35
Yes, I was gonna ask.

spk_0:   4:36
Yeah, I had not been. I think I think I had heard of the ice, man, you know, But I had. And I think maybe someone had said something to me. Oh, you're a SEAL. You should check out the ice, man. You know? Yeah. Um, but really hadn't hadn't dug down into that. I just was like, Okay, that sounds cool. And I get to the event and, you know, I could send the workshop I get to the event and everyone in the room. They all know me. This is a pretty close knit group of entrepreneurs. It's in this group, and, uh, they all know me. And I instantly knew that I was gonna have to get in the ice bath first.

spk_1:   5:12
Like you just felt that pressure that they know you touched on it just a second ago. But your background is for 15 years, right? You were a Navy SEAL officer?

spk_0:   5:22
Yeah, Yeah, it wasn't, um, wasn't quite 15 years, but almost. Yeah, and ah, yeah, just just briefly. What's the Naval Academy got out I was, Ah, right to the seals. Was it seal team for fighting Clinton's drug war counter narcotics war spent a ton of time and I mean a lot like years and years in South and Central America and then with silt in five. And that's Pacific Rim, The deployments to Australia and, ah, tight Land and Japan N. Are

spk_1:   5:49
there specific numbers related to just like where they're stationed, or is it just a different ranking?

spk_0:   5:54
Yes, Of the seal teams, there's there. They have different numbers now, Um, and there's more of, um, But back then, there is essentially their seven seal teams, and everyone had a number in the number indicated, Ah, not ranking everything. It just indicated where in the world they were focused on

spk_1:   6:15
how bigger that ah teams consist of just out of curiosity.

spk_0:   6:19
Yeah, I don't you know. So there's been a massive expansion and what's, ah, like a fighting unit for a team. But back in the day, you know, few 100 seals and support staff, and they were split up into platoon sized units. Those units for anywhere from 12 to 18. I got it. Yeah. And now they do task units and all sorts of other configurations. They have way more boats. We had boats back then, but they have way more boats now. They have a really, really good intelligence. But it

spk_1:   6:49
is expansion Just in recent years. Like people just got fired up and wanted to try to become seals or

spk_0:   6:56
not, it was funding. OK, eso if you look at, you know, you just look at effectiveness on a per military member basis and you look way back even back in the Vietnam era, the effectiveness of the duty and the seals um just showed up statistically. Ah, and the same thing with snipers as well, Like one sniper pull in more time will do way more damage to the enemy than you know, 40 50 just regular line troops. Right? So specialized training works. And with the seal teams, it was just shown to be really, really effective. And so they just put more money

spk_1:   7:43
to get some more money into this statistics or show. And this is working

spk_0:   7:47
because yeah, in. And the big thing that happened was they created a whole separate major command called Special Operations Command. So used to be the seals were aligned on Lee to the Navy and the Green Berets were only to the Army and so on, so forth,

spk_1:   8:02
like Marine recon had a body that was like a sniper. Marine recon,

spk_0:   8:06
Right? And I think that they're they're partially lying to special operations as well. 100%. I don't know how all that works today. So everything I mean, I'm old meat, so everything I say is gonna be dated on this. But the the point is, is that you truly warfare in this century specialty isn't the ground wars that were, you know, we saw in World War Two or even the jungle slog in Vietnam, right? It's very hyper focused on urban environments. Um, tends to be asymmetric threats, you know, But that's some expertise is probably why you called me on the same thing as well.

spk_1:   8:43
But that s o just to dig in a little bit to that, because there's sort of this mythical lore kind of around Navy seals, right? You're the badass of all the badass. Yeah. Hell week you have to go through. And I mean, I've heard stories which I don't even know if they're true or not. but like, you have to tread water in a pool with your hands and arms tied up. Esther. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. How long?

spk_0:   9:04
Um is that I want to say I want to see your eyes called drown proofing. I want to say drown proofing met in five minutes. I'm not sure in his three things. So you have to swim across a pool. I think it's I think it's 100 yards. 100 meters. I don't know. You have to swim tied up, hands tied behind her back. If he tied, then you have Thio, um, be able to just kind of sit there with it.

spk_1:   9:31
Just kind of stay above water.

spk_0:   9:33
Yeah, we'll stay. Yeah, we'll stay floating and then breathing, and there's a bobbing part of it, and then there's a floating part of it, and then you have to go down and grab something. I think it's a mask if I remember correctly from the bottom of the pool and bring that up and that ends it and the whole thing. I don't know that that that long, because once you get it, you can do it for a very long time.

spk_1:   9:53
Like once. You kind of understand the technique to it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then there. I mean, well, maybe we can get more into some of this because we tangent id off a word. But the point of getting into some of this was you find yourself in this e o group where they're bringing in the women off and and your ah, already feeling the eyes sort of burning through you. That's like the Navy seals gonna have to go first. And you're gonna have to be better than everybody.

spk_0:   10:21
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so I think, J I told you in my workshop that only one person's ever passed out during the breathing exercises. And that was me. Yeah. And the only work that I've been to up the only one that's ever passed out is because I figured I needed toe hold my breath longer and everybody is well, right. So there is ah, whole mindset that I kind of went in feeling a lot, putting a lot of pressure on myself to be the one that does the best with this stuff. Knowing everybody knew that was that I've been a team guy, right? And ah, yeah, and So I get it comes time to do the ice bath, and I just really, really And I can't do it justice on a podcast. Right? But, I mean,

spk_1:   10:59
but you passed out during the breathing.

spk_0:   11:01
The broth work is a different spaces, all

spk_1:   11:03
right? And I was telling you, just this morning I was trying to do it, and I in the workshop, I held my breath. I think after the fourth round, maybe, uh, beyond two minutes or

spk_0:   11:15
something, probably two to nothing. It's,

spk_1:   11:17
uh, on my own. It's like a mind over matter. I think I could probably go longer, but it's really hard to stay in that space. Taste to go longer. But so just to even touch on that, the mentality of being able to hold your breath, the willpower or whatever it is to hold your best so long that you pass out. That's crazy because everything inside of me is screaming. Just breathe. It's not that big a deal. Go for it. And you were able to hold your breath and tell you blacked out.

spk_0:   11:46
Yeah, only once. I'll never do that again. Yeah, and not for the audience, like, just so you know, the automatic reaction that your body has in passing out is to start breathing again. So it's not that big a deal, and it can come rapidly. It can come quick. And it did come quick for me, and it felt more like I was falling asleep, you know? And it was a great lot me. And it's great lesson. I would never do any of this in inter near the water, but that's what happened. That's how people dies. They, um, they decide to do something. They can easily get you to blacking out inter near the water to hold their breath longer. And so that's why it's just one of precaution, right? What are you

spk_1:   12:22
saying that don't do what you're driving? Don't do when you're in water.

spk_0:   12:25
Yeah, you're laying down or seated on a couch. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yes. So the s o I get there and and I'm like, Okay, I just, you know, just passed out. So that was a little extreme. And then it gets time to do the ice bath, and and I'm really cut quite anxious about it. That's what's something that's so cool about the workshop because I use it as a leadership experience of how do you deal with anxiety? How do you How do you encounter something hard? You know, cause the ice bath socks. Yeah, and I make it really clear in the workshop that this is I'm not gonna do anything magic to make this easy or pleasant. It's gonna suck no matter what.

spk_1:   13:04
For me, the difference from getting in my pool, which was 50 degrees or whatever. And the ice bath was the pain

spk_0:   13:11
that you have a nice bath. The pool

spk_1:   13:13
was cold and a little bit, but I could relax my body and and sort of breathe into it. The highest bath was just shocking immediately. And then my hands and my feet were they felt like excruciating pain.

spk_0:   13:26
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. And, um, and by the way, all that just gets better. It gets easier. And by the end of the 90 seconds, you kind of feel that that that feeling it's still socks. But it's not as bad. Yeah, but the going into it this it was anxiety provoking for me, like not only was I putting all this pressure on myself to be the one that does it and does it. Wow. You know, but also right to do it the best, right? And then this was standard the best and, you know, to be the biggest man on that, like all that. And I'm, you know, a time I was 48 years old, and I'm kind of over all that, but that still came up. I feel a lot of pressure. Um, yeah. So But also, like, the need to jump in first, you know? And so I got in and, you know, just like I say in the workshop, I kind of lost it. You

spk_1:   14:13
know, when you say you wished it what you mean?

spk_0:   14:15
Yeah. So the the woman who was the instructor back then good. We had to get her, Like, right now there's in San Diego. I think there's three women off method instructors. I'm one of three. Back then, there was none. We had to get someone to come from l. A. And it was one of the first female when half instructors. And I I'm spacing her name right now. I'll have to look it up. But she came down and she taught us this, and she gives me an option of holding her hands and getting and slowly or just kind of just getting it, you know? And I was like, I'll take the hands right. And you notice in my workshop, if people are having trouble, I hold their hands right where I connect deeply with people and the more anxiety or issues they have, the closer I get and the more connected I get, including holding hands putting out on the shoulder. Right, Because that physical personal connection is part of the learning of the workshop. What? We could

spk_1:   15:08
do that right on that? Yeah,

spk_0:   15:09
sure. But let me let me finish. You elaborate on that, right? So she holds my bra on my hands looking at her like we're basically showing people how to do this. I'm the 1st 1 No one's ever done it before in the workshop. And ah, and there's all this pressure on me and I get in. And I felt what you felt was like,

spk_1:   15:27
Oh, I am just a

spk_0:   15:29
state of

spk_1:   15:29
shock. You're nervous systems just telling you, Get the hell off.

spk_0:   15:31
Yeah. Yeah, and that's what happens. That's why you get the release. Ah, nor preference it's because your body goes from Hey, get out now, Thio Whoa! We have to deal with this in a different way because you're not getting out. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I'll talk about the science of it. Well, but So I get in and I get really, really slowly and I'm like that ever. I could tell Everyone's like, Holy shit. Like, what's going on with Jeff? Yeah. Whoa, You're really selling it for the rest of you. Everyone else is like, uh, yeah, maybe I'm not doing that right. They were like, Yeah, I could tell one guy in particular was I looked over. I kind of like, see him looking in the court. My I'm like he was like, Yeah, I'm just doing this face like Oh, my God, Why Eyes wide open mouth jaw dropped and ah, yeah, And so I finally get in. I'm like, and she's like, slow down, slow your breathing down you Come on, breathe with me like she's doing everything and I do with the people in my workshops. And, uh, and the only difference was that that she really, um she was less a line to just getting in like in the workshop. I just say, Look, you just get I will help you get in. You get it? So if you want, I just know it sucks. Just get in. She's lost the line to that. And so I kind of took that. And, you know, I got him really, really slow. I was breathing hard. She's, like, slow down, slow down in about 90 seconds into it, you know, I got it.

spk_1:   16:56
So you stayed in the whole time?

spk_0:   16:57
I did. I just tell you, was I listened? I was just like I didn't just get in, okay? Yeah,

spk_1:   17:02
But you stayed. You had us stay in for 90 seconds. So you stayed a full 90 seconds are gone, so you didn't get out. But the way that you handled it, you feel like was a little you were You let it get on top of you a little too much.

spk_0:   17:17
Yeah, for sure. There's no doubt. Yeah, and so I can't. I I went away. I was a little embarrassed by it. Um, and I got, um But I got out like I got the feeling the feel good feeling the norepinephrine hit. I mean, I got out with all the energy. I was like, Whoa, that was really good. And I got that feeling like you had J like everyone has at the end of the workshop. Like, Wow, I feel really relaxed. Yeah, I felt nearly stress free, like a lot of times. People that have chronic pain or pain free. That's a couple stories about that. And I, uh, and and I felt that way, too. And I was I was in it right. I loved it. But then the next guy, literally he's He's a little bit of obese guy and and he he just has a like a certain like, whatever attitude with the world. And he just wasn't like putting pressure on himself or anything. And he just goes, I don't see what the big deal is. And he kind of laughs and jumps in, you know, no hesitation. Yeah, and the next guy was super super skinny, and he kind of did the same thing, and I and I think maybe part of it is they learned for me to not to get in slowly, but the other live heart was their mindset, you know, they had the right mindset for it, and that's kind of that. You know, I drove away from that workshop thinking There's something here for me because I really feel good right now. I really like it like I mean, I was really feeling that I really like the whole process. I liked everything about it. The science was solid. It wasn't true at all. And the science is just way better now. Even like everything, I think there's three or four times the studies now, like pure of you double blind. Um,

spk_1:   18:55
there's Wim Hof. I mean, that's part of his.

spk_0:   18:57
Yeah, I didn't do anything without it being like being hooked up to monitors, right? He's

spk_1:   19:01
trying to prove that he's not some supernatural person, that this is just a fluke. Only to him. Everybody can do this.

spk_0:   19:09
Yeah, he's definitely a little of a freak of nature, but yeah, suddenly he's got, got, he's got some special physiology, but he's what he's saying, and I tend to believe him is he's built that physiology of her 40 years

spk_1:   19:22
doing the work,

spk_0:   19:23
doing the work right and that you can get you can get like, 1/3 of the way there within a week or two, then I do believe that. But anyway, so I get I get back and just, you know, the answer. A question like that point. I was like, I need Thio Take this farther and I typically every year I'll choose something to go a little deeper into. And I was like, Okay, this is it. I looked into it. I did the They have a really It's called the fundamentals course. There's two online courses. The fundamentals course is the new wants. One are commended. It's ah, it's quite good.

spk_1:   19:55
Isn't a paid one? Or is it?

spk_0:   19:57
Yeah, it's payday. Just got a whim off method dot com and just pick the online funnels course. And it's like 10 or 12 weeks really well supported with documentation and like a workbook and stuff. And you just every week you just do what's in there. And I did that and I was like, You know, um, I think I want to take this even farther. And at that point, I said I checked out the certification and you found my trainer to be coming out one of the certified instructors, and that's that's what I did.

spk_1:   20:21
Yeah, so part of it you're saying was driven by sort of the way you felt afterwards. Good. Positive. Was there any part driven by negative feelings afterwards? Off? I wished out how I gotta figure out. I gotta try to get this thing figured out so that I can sort of master it. Or was it mostly just This feels good. I'm interested in this thing. I want to try toe, push it further.

spk_0:   20:45
Yeah, well, I think it was. I was introspective about the worst part. Like that. Not really. Not doing how I knew I could have. I was introspective about I wasn't thinking. I need to prove something that I was like by that. Yeah, I was just like, Wow, that's that's kind of that's kind of weird that I did that, you know? So it was just a good learning experience for me, and it propelled me into learning more about the method a little bit. But the main thing Waas man, this just feels really good. It's really interesting is yeah, there's a, like, a coolness factor. So I'm just gonna check it out

spk_1:   21:17
and like being intrigued by the science and all of it to right, because there's a ton of, I mean, probably more than we could even get into. But there's a lot of crazy studies like that. Endo talks, and one is one that really stands out. And they taught that not only did he do it himself, but he taught it to like, 12 other people when they all 100% success in not getting sick,

spk_0:   21:39
not getting sick. Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, did it again with another bigger group. And then I think there's two big studies about to be released with really big groups all doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But there are, uh we could we could dive into the science of it. Happy to do that. But it's there's better ways to get the science for me, actually. What? I do know what s O? Just recently I did a private event, and in the private events, um, there's a gentleman with chronic pain in his leg and so fit guy, you know, very fit. Looks like he ate well, like there's no reason to like, there's there's no reason he should have caught in pain, but he had surgery done, and I don't know if it was Boster, just like the result was He had chronic pain and he at the end of the breathing, you have less pain at the end of the ice bath yet no pain

spk_1:   22:33
like the pain was just gone.

spk_0:   22:34
Gone. He's like, Jeff, I haven't had I haven't felt like this and it was like a decade or something.

spk_1:   22:40
Did the pain stay gone? I

spk_0:   22:42
thought this was just like a week ago, and I haven't. I need to touch base with her, see if he's still in the work the way. Like I believe the way our bodies work is that the pain will come back because the suppression of the inflation on Lee the inflammation Excuse me. Not inflation information that only lasts so long. Then it come, it'll come back. Um but that being said, I don't know the answer that Ah, there's ah, A couple years ago I had a workshop, a corporate event in corporate events or so ridiculously fun because there's work with because event you came Thio. Everyone self selected like they all knew what they're getting into,

spk_1:   23:20
right? Right.

spk_0:   23:21
Corporate events. Sometimes they won't even know until the day before. Like in this corporate event, One of the guys who, like just, you know, doesn't that look like you work out a day in his life, right? And he comes up to me and he goes because, Jeff, why does the waiver say I could die? You know? Yeah, I like I like to cover my ass. That's it. You're not gonna die you right? You But yeah, right. That's the one they told me to make you sign, right? And then he goes, Yeah, I check this thing out. I don't know if I'm gonna do the ice bath. I'm like, is totally cool. You have to do that spot. Just just see what happens. Of course you did the ice bag. Freaking loved it. And I have a picture of him. Big smile. But the, um the what was going on, that is, they don't know what they're getting into. And so this one woman older woman in 67 she had bandages owner on her legs, and, um, she self described in the introductory We, like, have ever been introduced himself. Self described crotch the old woman, But she literally introduced herself is

spk_1:   24:18
I'm a crotchety

spk_0:   24:19
old woman. Yeah, like that was those were my words. But she had something even worse to say about herself. And everyone kind of like, had that nervous laugh like, Yeah, you're right, you know, like, that's funny. And you're right, too. Ah, so we get done with the breathing, and I look over and you could just tell that that you could just see that feeling of relax happened with people, Especially when people come in really stress. And I go and I go, Hey, and I won't use your name. Hey, um What? You know what's going on for you? How? How that work for you. And she goes, You know, Jeff, I'm really glad you asked. Because over the last 10 years, I've been in chronic pain. The doctors can't figure it out. I've had your apathy for five years. Not with ease where you can't feel your extremities s. I'm gonna fill my hands and feet for five years, and she goes right now I can feel my hands and feet, and I'm not in pain. Wow. And I've been trying drugs for years and nothing's worked, and she is that this is, you know, She said it was like, This is kind of a miracle. And you could have, like, you could have a pin drop

spk_1:   25:21
while she was talking,

spk_0:   25:22
talking like I mean, the owner of the company who organized all this his like, I've looked over him. He's like, jaw drop. Everyone was like, Oh, my God,

spk_1:   25:31
Of course, she's been a crotchety old woman or whatever,

spk_0:   25:34
but it ain't. Yeah, yeah, chronic pain. Wow. Noble filler Hands, feet for years that's

spk_1:   25:40
just got away on you eventually and then to feel so what's it like for you in these moments where you have these real experiences, where you see these people relieved of their pain to be? I mean, it's got to be part of the fulfillment or the reward of doing some of this work, too, is that you're introducing something to say that can really change their life.

spk_0:   25:59
Yes. Yeah, and I, um Yeah, I dig it. Yeah, I kind of said about her and I did it. So

spk_1:   26:07
I mean, maybe to touch a little bit, too, on the because you said the connection piece is really important to

spk_0:   26:12
you in your workshops and home.

spk_1:   26:14
That so obviously it's a connection. We're all in community and together and all of that. Even in the, um, at the workshop that I was at, there's a sort of community in a pond. Yeah, right. Yeah, you go. It's like I am not trivia trivializing this, but it's all that I can think of, right? It's like going into battle together or something. And then you bond over the shared experience. Yeah, which I have no concept of what going into real battle would be like.

spk_0:   26:41
But But that's the kind of thing that that's exactly what's happening. This really interesting book. Ah, and a guy forgets to call tribe if you're a tribe. No. Yeah. So maybe all grab its weaken credit the author. But he was a war correspondent, and he realized he came back with PTSD, and he just kind of went on this this journey about howto how to deal with this PTSD, but also was figure it was trying to figure out why, when he would come back from a war, he felt so, like, isolated alone

spk_1:   27:16
after being overseas or whatever and then coming back to just normal life.

spk_0:   27:21
Yeah, And why was that? He missed that brotherhood even though he was in war so much. Yeah, it's really, um it's very common way to bond as a group is to have adversity. Yeah, and the ice bath Is adversity Totally. Yeah. And so it's really quite a good bonding experiences. So the e I don't know. So you know your your therapist by trade, right? So you probably have seen the m r. I studies around holding hands.

spk_1:   27:45
Ah, yeah, yeah. And I mean to touch a little bit on the so Kristina Trendy who we talked about the beginning of her and I are both on the board of the San Diego Center for FT. Or emotionally focused therapy. And a lot of that. All of that is attachment based in connection based. So that's one of the big ones they always promote is go into this m r I alone. You feel they shock. You feel the pain. But I'll let you elaborate on want total thing.

spk_0:   28:10
Yeah, I know, but that's that's about right, right? And there's ah, maybe in the podcast, you can put a link thio the Germans video that talks about the study. It's the Ted X talk quite good. We actually show it in the hold me tight workshop that we see is that Christine I teach together and, um in Well, there's a couple of really good ones around holding hands. But the the and result is like the to kind of cut to. It is if you're holding the hand of a loved one, right, and you're in stress, like when you're in an m r. I being threatened to be shocked, which is a very stressful situation, because FM a riser like this to write with all the noise and everything And it, you know, in your holy hand of someone you're, you know, possibly attached with, like, your spouse, you know, then you feel way less anxiety and pain. Yeah, yeah, And interestingly enough, you scan the spouse holding your hands, and it's almost they're mirroring your experience

spk_1:   29:09
like they feel whatever the pain is,

spk_0:   29:11
kind of you feel. Yeah, even if you're not looking at, I'm just holding their hands and knowing they're the empathy is producing this mirror. The fact, right? And so the researcher, uh, and I'm, like, totally spacing names today because it's really it's a good title. We have to put the link. You go. I'll go back

spk_1:   29:28
afterwards and do a little follow up with everything

spk_0:   29:30
for sure for sure. Yes. So the um, the researcher found that it was almost like a couple. Despondent has an integrated brain. That's crazy. Yeah, that they're relying on each other's They're outsourcing, if you will. That's his word. Outsourcing nervous system function to the person that could manage it, the best i e the person that's not at the Emory being threatened. Shock.

spk_1:   29:52
Wow. Yeah, and you essentially have your partner helps you regulate your own nervous

spk_0:   29:58
system, which is lean

spk_1:   29:59
on each other,

spk_0:   30:00
which is the premise of emotion. Focus therapy, which I big believer in is well, and, you know, when she told me tight work jump if I didn't believe in it in in all of this, you know, what I learned is that the ice bath really socks, and it's way easier if you have somebody you're connected with. And that holding hands, touching a shoulder, looking in each other's eyes, smearing my breathing patterns right. All of that is a substantial help in dealing with this first sight's path,

spk_1:   30:32
right? So you mean that That was an experience that I remember. We had two side by side that's got in, and you were kind of bouncing back and forth between. But there was a moment where I think I was closing my eyes and trying to, like, relax into it. And you were like, Look at me. You know? Look, come with me and then you're helping me kind of mirror your breathing and going through it, which at the time, I I didn't have this knowledge of kind of the premise behind it of trying to You're almost trying to help lend Europe your nervous system to the people in the bath. Almost kind

spk_0:   31:01
of in the confidence and everything. And I I've gotten in the habit of it could be that you just didn't need it. You know, you could be You're good to go. I just got in the habit of checking it with people to make sure they go to that place I want him to go to, which is at managing the pain through the breath and really settling into and relaxing into the stress.

spk_1:   31:21
I think I needed it.

spk_0:   31:22
Okay. All right. On. Right on.

spk_1:   31:23
I think I was trying to maybe go into, like, um, or meditative space or something. But when I got more into the deeper breathing and getting into it, everything gets easier. It's really like as a side tangent here. You spoke on this earlier, that anxiety about getting into it, you know, And it's a really interesting process for me. I've done a lot of mindfulness work, so I feel like I'm pretty in tune with everything that I'm thinking and feeling and all these other things and in the process is so crazy because it's a fight or flight response, right? Like you, you know, logically that nothing bad is happening to you. Like her nervous system is telling you gets

spk_0:   32:01
up. Something bad is happening. Yeah, s Oh,

spk_1:   32:04
it's a weird was such a weird space for me to go back and forth between Don't be a wuss, you know, And then, like you're fine, everything's fine. And then the pain would see back in. And I go literally was having these thoughts in my head like it doesn't matter. You're secure with yourself. If you're the only one that gets out right now at 30 seconds, not a big deal like Hook. And then I'd be like, Okay, that's just your nervous system telling you that you're in danger and you're nine this back and then even the head dunk afterwards, I remember getting up to that mean like, I'm not going under. I don't care. It's not. And then you'll be like, Okay, you're going under. It's nothing bad to happen, you know. But then and then afterwards, that elation of like and we're doing the horse stance kind of going back, you know? And you're like,

spk_0:   32:45
Ah did it, Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. That's what's so beautiful about the experiences you get clear on the heavier the monkey in the elephant. No. Yeah, they're so the monkey. There's an emotional monkey and then irrational monkey and emotional monkey The rational monkey each have like a hold of a rain on an elephant on the elephant is your body and all the stuff that's in your body that just happens automatically, no matter what the elephant is run mainly by, like the sim of the brain, you know, and that's where all the flight flight stuff happens. Right? And the monkey, the monkeys, they're saying they're chattering about how they feel and what's rational. Trying to steer the elephant and the elephant pretty much whenever it wants. Who does? Whatever it's gonna do, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great one. And if you think about like, what was happening with you was the monkeys were chattering is your body was doing what I was doing, right? Right. And that's why it's almost like the inner story almost doesn't matter as long as you have the connection the breathing like you have the tools to get through the ice bath. Then you get through the ice bath with some really small, like there are some conditions where you just shouldn't get a nice bath. But most like this between about 1000 people, um, and the but the vast majority just need some. Some just do it. And but most people need connection and the breathing it doesn't matter what story they're telling. The story they need to get in is I'm going to do this right, and that's why what happens right before is the mindset. Yeah, I talk about mindset. What's the mindset for dealing with something stressful and the whole theme of the workshop is relaxing into the stress, breathing into the stress, leaning into the stress, feeling it, enduring it, dealing with it, yes, but not letting it deal, not letting it overcome you

spk_1:   34:36
right now. Which is that, And that's what I think. There's all the science behind what it's doing on a physiological level to you. But even in that space being able to override your own fear center and get into this thing when your brain, when the monkeys air telling you, are the one monkeys basically like there's no way right there's something powerful about the writing that and is that part of the breath work to is kind of to put you in that stressful space because the breath work gets intense, thank you. Start tingling and you're My ears were ringing and my left hand was like turning into a claw. Kind of, you know, but I know there's benefits to the breath work, but it also is a mind over matter kind of thing to write, to push sure, that deeper space

spk_0:   35:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's two. I think there's two questions in that, really. So the question one is, does the breath work? Help with the ice and the breath. Work helps with pain, like deep breathing helps with pain management. And, you know, before epidurals, all women learned how to breathe for pregnancy. Yeah, it was just so great about that recently, too. Yeah, so we could like it's not new new science that deep breathing helps with the manager for sure. So that's part of it. So the breathing you do before the ice bath helps in a lot of different ways. You get into the ice bath, right for pain management beforehand and then the breathing. We do bright before and during the ice bath. It's critical for pain management for relaxing into the stress. So that's part of it. The, um, what makes the breath work so intense? And what makes the work so cool is, and talk about this in workshop is that's access to your autonomous nervous system. Like we're you know, you and I are trying to breathe right now, right, and it's not like we're we're not going, you know, we're breathing, and you could if you looked at my chest, you couldn't even tell his breathing. It's almost imperceptible, but we have this ability through muscle contraction. Thio change the route of something that happens automatically. You can't do that with your heart. You can't do with your liver. You can't do it with any other organ. Pretty much you can kind of do it. You know, when someone go in the bathroom, you can kind of control that with muscle contraction, right? But for the most part, the elephant just does its thing. And what's really cool about breathing? It's this act. It's it's a it's a better access to the elephant than the monkeys.

spk_1:   36:53
Yeah, that's crazy because that's all of the other stuff you're talking about is like your brand stem controls all these functions that you don't ever have to think about right? But then the breath is a process that we don't have to think about. But when we think about it, we can control on access something deeper. Yeah, that's it's really

spk_0:   37:10
cool. Yeah, I mean, ultimately, it's it's a it's a mindfulness technique. Yeah, right. And any all mindfulness has you override what's naturally happen happening to go into a deeper state of focus of some sort right in this. In this case, we're focusing on her breath

spk_1:   37:27
um, so in some of this stuff and I don't know if, um, well, obviously I would highly encourage anybody to go 20 workshops. Awesome. I was

spk_0:   37:37
in there. It's not just me right there. Workshops. They're awesome instructors all around the world.

spk_1:   37:41
Yeah, I've seen Yeah, they do. So just were in Internet is where we're at you doing a different gyms in different places. And then I know there's been some at, you know, different yoga studios and all these so you can find one. Yeah, recommend going to Jeffs. It was awesome in talking about the connection piece, and we touched a little bit on e f T. You and I had talked briefly before this and was interesting to me. Is so just last weekend, you guys hosted a hold me tight workshop, right?

spk_0:   38:10
Yes, that last week

spk_1:   38:12
so emotionally focused, their A B ah is based on attachment. It's for it started with Cup for Couples. Now it's branched into family and individuals and other things, but the's hold me tight Workshops that were created by Sue Johnson are sort of like a crash course into understanding the cycle in the dynamics and all of that right? So I got interested in how you got into that, because in my perception, and I don't know who you are, you know, I've only met a couple times. I don't know who you are, your personality and all that, but I have this image of a Navy seal tough. I mean, I think by nature you have to have some armor, you know, emotional armor on or something. Probably to be doing what you're doing. And then emotionally focused therapy is really accessing all of these vulnerable emotions in telling you, like, drop the armor, be open. So it's kind of interesting, I guess. I'm just curious about the contrast between the two and how you found yourself doing these workshops.

spk_0:   39:07
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Uh, so there's so much to talk about so much. So answer this the easy these air of the questions is how I got there. And, um, yes. So I will say the lad of pretty rough childhood and and, you know, in a lot of people have you know, and I was blessed at some point to move in with my aunt, who really kind of help turn things around for me, and it was early enough and I was doing well enough in school that got into the Naval Academy. And there's like, there's a whole bunch of, like, I'm so grateful for everything that happened in that period of my life from like, 10th grade on to get me into, ah, into the Navy specifically into Naval Academy especially. And so what I can say is in, you know, I'm pretty driven guy, you know? And I go after things pretty hard core and, like, I think you know, possibly know, likely because of fairly traumatic childhood. I did things that avoided connection, you know? And so he, you know, you could you could say just engineering is injurious. Agree? Is it exactly, you know, a connection agree, Like liberal liberal arts degree was, And it's definitely a deep thinking thing, and I'm Ah, if you're with Myers Briggs, I'm a i n T j so judge and thinking, thinking, judging, that's the kind of the the uncle is one of the uncommon ones. And so thinking judging is kind of a powerful combination for not connecting, you know, get to like, say, think about people in judge home and you stay away from home And then kind of moving, Moving on United Ultra marathoning. That's the teams were very connecting from a commode ary perspective, But I kind of stayed aloof of that as well.

spk_1:   40:45
No, I'm like deeper connections. Kind of, Yeah, this is a team aspect, and it feels good to be a part of it. But also, I'm not really gonna like you in.

spk_0:   40:52
Yeah, don't don't. In a lot of lot of lot of guys and teams are that way. And you came in with some great friendships. Don't get me wrong. I made connections discounting. Yeah, exactly. I'm not. You know, um, it's it could sound worse than it was, but I You know, I just sort of avoided it, right. And I still made great friends, and I have friends from way, way back in high school and my friends from college and I have friends from the teams and friends from work and everything. So it's like, you know, I'm not this a social guy, right? But I definitely, uh, like, I could I could I can safely say that I picked around that had me, um, staying that thinking, judging space and get away from the feeling space on cultivated that in my life. And, you know, the teams they dio that the training doesn't necessarily make you immune Thio emotion, you know, it's not It's o r block it or anything. I wouldn't I wouldn't say that. But what all the training does in all the experiences is it makes it so that most experiences don't trigger you. Yeah, and so you kind of I kind of had this, like, not so connected way being, um, when after activities that kept me from connection the

spk_1:   42:04
like Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt on attachment sense, right? Or hearing you say you had a fairly traumatic childhood and all that, and I'm assuming it's related to people. Also hurting you are letting you down or whatever, right? And then that what we know is like, the strategy that you develop is I'm just going to sort of stay out of connection because it feels the best wayto regulate myself emotionally or whatever. Every time I get close, I get hurt. So the walls air sort of up.

spk_0:   42:30
Yeah. You know, I think a lot of people are that way. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, it's very, very common. Right. And so Yeah, I know. I'll just like I'll just tell you. So the trauma in my life was my father killed my mom. Oh, wow. Yeah. Super happy, right? Yeah. She probably told you I might cry, right? So, yeah. So it was very heavy. It was national news. Like we were that family. It was right. It was in the, um, is in the eighties. So it was right. Is CNN or Excuse me, the Ted Turner's network. The term national news is just coming online, and we're like one of those big stories, like it was in the National Enquirer. Whole

spk_1:   43:03
life is just thrown out there.

spk_0:   43:04
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was super heavy. However, you I, um So I was in ninth grade. What happened? Actually, just being in 10th grade. So there's like, there's a period of time that it all kind of went down in. My parents, you know, in retrospect, were both deeply depressed, deeply depressed people. And I, like, had a big struggle with depression is well, Ryan, whim. Hope that that is a big part of me, you know, not being depressed.

spk_1:   43:29
Yeah, You mentioned that.

spk_0:   43:30
Yeah. In the workshop. Yeah. Eso just super heavy. And so, yes, it is kind of fast forward again. So I'm doing while I'm, like, you know, both my parents were really smart. My father still lives opinion. He's out of jail now. He's a PhD.

spk_1:   43:45
Are you connected to your dad? It'll know.

spk_0:   43:47
Yeah, Yeah, not a lot. A lot. But he's met my kids, and, um, we've seen on a couple of holidays. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he definitely paid for for that, And, uh, he was in a really, really bad space when it happened. So there's a lot of forgiveness that still needs to happen in that. But it's all

spk_1:   44:05
right, I would imagine said a lot of work to do Yeah, into that space and forgive and release resentments and all of the way, you are everything that comes with it.

spk_0:   44:12
Yeah, but because I had a deal with my own big depression a couple of times now, and I have been depressed for years and years and you knock on wood, I don't think I ever will. But the part of that gave gave us some relatability and how bad things were for him because I kind of felt how bad it was for me.

spk_1:   44:29
I was going through your own. Yeah.

spk_0:   44:30
Don't go through my own nail his mind space. Yeah, and back then you just couldn't get help. You know, there's Pensacola, Florida. Like Deep South. Yeah. You know, I don't know if they were therapists, but that's sure they're probably shocking people. And it was, you know, stigma attached to it is, Well, you know,

spk_1:   44:46
bite on this stick while we shocked this edge of your head.

spk_0:   44:48
Yeah, exactly. So like that. Who knows what was You know, what was available, but it certainly, um, wasn't like today where it's very people are very open, especially California about it. But the too, you know. So there's this, like, this wall walls up, and it's a fairly useful wall for most of things. I choose. I'm able to compartmentalize pain and ah, and an emotional pain especially and, um and also, you know, kind of have an edge to me as well. Little gritty, you know, not always that easy to get along with, and ah, and you know, it all kind of, but it all sort of hit craziness when I had two Children, really, the the time that it really hit the worst. Like where the my ability thio stay connected with other people and to to really be able to imagine the emotional inside of it. It hit the worst when my two Children two boys, were two and four right, and they fought. They were finally crazy. They really were in my their mom. My ex wife was She's at Witsend. She's struggling as well. I was struggling at work. I had joined a start up and start was failing and things were going really bad. They were running out of money, you know, and I didn't have any. Like, I just didn't have the tools to turn to anyone. Yeah, and so

spk_1:   46:06
is just feeling yourself kind of sinking. And there's all this chaos and other things happening. But you just like, didn't have the resources or the knowledge of who you could turn to

spk_0:   46:14
exactly. And what's funny is after the fact I found out that people were talking about me, um, to each other, going, Hey, what's up with Jeff? You know what's going on with Jeff? You know, it went from like a talk. A good game. But it wasn't working inside Thio. I just was just on functioning. And I remember, um I remember sitting play. I was at the computer and we were running out of money because this is after I had been like, oh, the startup that eventually failed. And ah, and I just remember thinking, you know, I can see how someone becomes homeless, like I like, I don't feel like I have anybody right now. And, you know, if if stuff were to grab the kids and leave and you know, we lose the house and that would be that would just be homeless now, Yeah, you know, and I didn't like believe it, you know, family and friends. And, like, I just kind of got a glimpse of

spk_1:   47:01
you can see how it really kind of

spk_0:   47:03
snowballed. And yeah, how you still, if you feel like you just don't have connection to anybody and so I ah, you know that point? I no longer had health care, and I raid it because of a disability rating have with the with the VA. And so I went into the Veteran's hospital here in La Toya and I feel in this worksheet that they give you two. It's like an intake form, right? And, you know, standard questions like aches and pains, I think was page three halfway down. Pretty pretty clear picture. The question was something like, You know, do you feel down in the press? And you had five answers, like, None. None of the time. So you know, seldomly some of the time, most of time, all the time. And I literally jails like shit, man. All right, I start crying like, teared up, like, just think about it to Europe. Yeah, It was like, yeah, all the time, You know, And I go and I turn it in. I turned this this piece of paper and it was funny. I don't know why all that, like in the V A system. There's Tana Filipino people in there, right? I don't know why there's this Filipino guy on the other side, and I say that just cause his accident was so distinct for me, you know, and he's like, Okay. Thank you, sir. You know, like, um, have a seat serology. I'll just go through this and he just goes through it. He's really probably, you know, pleasant guy. And he goes Page one pitch to page three. Any stops, He looks up and looks down. And I go, sir, just wait one minute. Don't move, please. And I'm like, I get it. Yeah, like, you know, he's salting question so bad for you. Yeah, exactly. You know, and he goes in, comes back, he goes, Sir, they're waiting for you on the fifth floor. D what? You know, Would you like someone to escort you like they have protocol at that point? And I'm like, Dude, don't worry about I'll go straight up. No problem. No problem. And yeah, So I like I went up there and the that was a turning point, you know? And that started a whole new type of self l pish type of journey for me. And the reason why I think that's so important is because I moved into this place where you know my thoughts matter and my feelings better. Yeah, you know,

spk_1:   49:08
giving acknowledgement thio both of those.

spk_0:   49:10
Yeah, and and ask for help. Yeah. Yeah, just like and I was kind of dumb luck, right? If I hadn't of said okay, I need health care. I need to get my health care going. And I hadn't had that questionnaire. It might have taken a lot longer.

spk_1:   49:23
Yeah, Yeah, actually get to a place. A place where you sort of asked for it for yourself.

spk_0:   49:27
Yeah, Yeah, but it was. So things were so bad and just not having like turning to the was really, really quite helpful. Um, and so that started a journey that have lots of twists and turns and ah, lots of it. But the the theme of it was connecting. Whether it was to yourself or to other people and, you know, fast forward, Let the next step was of that was I got to talk there be other in mantra, like the VA has some fairly cutting edge stuff that they teach. Um, did CBT, which you're probably familiar with, which I'm a big a big believer in now. I study still like philosophy, which is has, like, its roots are TV T has the roots and stoic philosophy, right. And and so I believe how you think matters a lot. But I also know that the connection, like we talked about with holding hands and the and the connection that that I give people in the ice bath. And also they can actually get from other people matters a lot, right? And mostly focused therapy, which I'm a big believer in if you're a couple, I do emotionally focused therapy. Even if you're happy, right? Just do it right. You and Stanley makes things better, is really, really good. Um and so, you know, I went to a parenting class taught by a woman here in town named Susie Walton called Joy Parenting, And I learned how to relate to my kids, you know, And I

spk_1:   50:43
get so you can connect with them.

spk_0:   50:45
Yeah, Yeah, connect with them And also just, um, like, uh, manage myself when I'm working with them. Because it's like I just kind of funny story, literally just going to the first of five live, ah, lessons, I guess from Susie. And it was about sibling rivalry, live rivalry and how the parent actually creates sibling rivalry by with the way they react and then and yeah, So you can imagine if the parent is always punishing the older child and giving the younger child protection. Then what will happen is is I D A victim bully dynamic naturally emerges from that because of the parent's behavior. Yeah, right. And so I remember, Yeah, I think was the day after I took that class and learned about this and learn how to keep your kids in same boat. I come home and my kids didn't know I was home in one. My younger son, Bryce, was at one end of the room, and my older son kills at the other end in my younger son literally grabs the hell. He's holding a toy. He looks over at my older son. He throws a toy down and starts screaming, right? Yeah, and I immediately feel inside myself a trigger to make me think Kale's done something wrong. Like that's how deeply ingrained in this this three person cycle. We were right and emotional focus. Every talks about cycles, right? It was a cycle. Yeah, and the younger son and learned so well. How did howto have this happen? And literally a

spk_1:   52:10
classic move, right? There's

spk_0:   52:11
classic has hurt me. Yeah, exactly. And I like I like I can't believe that I even though I've seen what happens that I'm so trained to react to his crying in a certain way that I'm still want to protect him like it was that like, Is that ridiculously irrational? You know? And so and then, of course, from upstairs comes comes their mom, and she rushes in and she immediately takes the bait, like, Wow,

spk_1:   52:38
like you were. See, in real time how you're

spk_0:   52:40
working, creating this cycle. Yeah. And so I learned how to relate to my Children and how to connect with him because there's a big part of this training was filling the emotional bank account connect before you correct. Like be with them, first get on their level like all those things that just all about connection. It was like is a parent. Of course, there's all about changing the way you act in the world as much as techniques for dealing with Children, right? Yeah. You show up. Yeah. And then sees introduced me to workshop oriented sort of, um, yeah, just a bunch of workshops around honoring your feelings and being with one of us called to remember its course. And you, like, you kind of go through what's what's going on with you and in a way, relive some of those those situations, but it's a deeply connecting course, right? There's another one. It's called freedom to Be. It's a deeply connecting course, and I was getting these really uncomfortable, almost like contrived artificial, but not really like It's real human connection but doesn't really safe held space. And so I went into a coaching certification. It was around this emotional, emotional self reliance and emotionally like being really honoring and feeling your feelings, if you will. And that's where I met Chrissy. I think you

spk_1:   53:51
were doing the coaching or

spk_0:   53:52
well, we're both coaching candidates. Okay, Yeah. The organization called Europe in a life. It was run by a beautiful women. Pam done, and we both went through this coaching certification. It was kind of like it was like Wim Hof was a side gig thing that I was doing four years before that. It was this coaching certification and I met Cristian that and ah, and she had also done the parenting stuff. Um, and we're both newly divorced and we became a couple and she said, hey, and she was in the middle of getting her UCSD masters U S. D A masters in, um and therapy right. So it was We were like, we were both in big learning mode. Yeah. Yeah. And so we took. We took the home in tight course from Rebecca in San Francisco. Befriended her. She's amazing, right? Rebecca Jorgensen and, uh, yeah, in and really, really an eye opener. But, I mean, we came out of that with some tools we just didn't have before.

spk_1:   54:49
Yeah, we ah, my partner or my fiance and I went thio. Rebecca Jorgensen did one down in Alliance University. And maybe a couple of years ago, we had moved in together. We never really fought that. We moved in together. We got in deep in our cycle and started fighting a lot, but had some of the language, and it wasn't too bad. But we went either way for issued their pursuit. No, she's a hairstylist. Okay, but really, she she's better than me.

spk_0:   55:16
Sometimes a lot of

spk_1:   55:17
stuff regulated, right? But it was, um, even not being in a super distress place. Go to the hold me tight workshop brought us to levels of connection that we didn't even really know about. And we were talking about things. We get pretty deep and we're pretty vulnerable. And some of the modules and some of the guided things to go through really brought us tow a deeper understanding of each other.

spk_0:   55:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, It's hard work. It's Ah, you know, we teach it. There's a weekend, but we're gonna teach It is ah, like a date night coming up soon and and I think you should teach it to a

spk_1:   55:48
lot. All the materials we'll go And then I just haven't done

spk_0:   55:51
it yet. Yeah, and teach it with her. I mean, lie. It's been it's been really good for us. And I Rebecca said, Well, you guys should teach this. I was like, Yeah, let's do it.

spk_1:   56:01
You guys kind of you both. I mean, circling all the way back to the entrepreneurs organization that you both have this driven business side, obviously. But then it comes back to the you're putting on these workshops and you're doing the coaching. I even saw a Ted talk that you were mean stuff. Yeah, and it's always, you know, obviously these side hustles and things that you're doing, but at the same time now, it seems like through everything, the focus is really around connection connecting, people helping people process their emotions are get to a space even where they can finally connect or drop those walls.

spk_0:   56:35
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely your job and Christie's job, you know, like for sure, right? And it's, um and I love doing the homey type workshops is much for because we get some, Really, I mean, it's it's super cool, you know, to see to see a couple come in. And she just themselves is we're probably gonna get a divorce and then leave holding hands kissing, right? I mean, it's like that. It's really cool, But it's a cz much for Christy and I. You know, every time we do that course, we get closer and we get reminded and we yeah, it's really good for us.

spk_1:   57:05
A picture that she posted on social media That was like falling more in love. Or it was both of you guys beaming, smile. You know, I like thinking at the time. You know, it probably really is a really bonding

spk_0:   57:18
experience. Yeah,

spk_1:   57:19
Every time you go through it, you learn it, Maur, and it becomes more part of just how you think every day Probably.

spk_0:   57:24
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's It's a hole. It's a whole journey on its own. And then the impact so apparent is set in pest. How I see, like the whole idea of cycles or demon dialogues. It's just impacts how I see all the relationships in my life now. And, you know, even in Nachman News organization, were split up into forums which are confidential groups of business owners. Small easily. 6 to 10. And ah, and we do confidential meetings. And you would think all we do is talk about her business, right? But no, we talked about our families and our kids and and like in our personal issues and stuff, right? And, you know, when I do coaching a coach, executives and you would think we would talk about is how to get their career on track. But they usually got that handled right. That's why they're executive, and it's ah, so much of what I've learned in hold me tight. So much of what I've learned from Susie from parenting, so much of what I've learned in my own journey, dealing with and handling depression, what I've learned in the workshops doing the Hoff workshops, it all gets down to do, argue resource. And do you have? The resource is around you to thrive, right? And so much of that is just, you know, are you connected other people than loving friendships are, you know, love relationships or family relationships? And are those are those helping resource? You like the You know, the person the Emory getting threat during the shock has the resource of the person with them holding their hands right. Ah, And so, you know, just naturally, then happens That of course, right. You're getting in an ice bath. I'm gonna be right there with you. Yeah, I'm gonna look you right in the eyes. I'm gonna hold your hands with a smile. You're gonna breathe with me. We're gonna do this together. It makes total sense, doesn't it?

spk_1:   59:06
Yeah, it was rad too, because the experience was everybody doing it. And you there, right there in the mix, supporting everybody and then not to be let down at the end. You jumped in it yourself, then handled it like a boss. I mean, I

spk_0:   59:23
have some practice

spk_1:   59:24
and you're talking with us, and you're like wrapping up the workshop. But you're just sitting in this ice bath where, like, the home a few minutes before. I'm like thinking, you know, you gotta get the hell out of you. Just like you're in a Jacuzzi.

spk_0:   59:36
Yeah. No, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's this. It's a fun stick. It's Ah, what? What I tell people is, you know, I'm breathing with you. And if there's 20 people in a workshop, I've done multiple rounds of breathing because you you know, I mean, I'm breathing heavily with you, right? So I am. I've done the breathing. You know, I've been a nice pass enough, right? You guys have warmed it up a little bit for me. Usually, who has a little less right you got in the beginning, Jason got full benefit, right? And, uh and Ah, yeah. And so And I've also had a ridiculous amount of connection. You know, I've gotten to look, people in the eyes hold their hands. You know, I've gotten all of the benefit. It's like the hold me tight, Christy and I wanna Christine. I teach together, we get all the benefit of the workshop. Yeah, we get to be reminded of how human we are on how human. Everybody is how we all have these cycles. And we worked through it. So yes, so, you know, to certainly said it looks like the boss. But if I was to at the beginning of the workshop, try to do that, it would not look the same,

spk_1:   1:0:35
right? It all comes from just all the all the peace, different pieces of it. The breath weren't the connection. Everything that's going into it, and then, yeah, get in.

spk_0:   1:0:44
And then I jump in and and I've had practice it a little, too. And then I could give you literally give you a little bit of a lecture from the icebox, and there's the energy of it, you know? I mean, let's let's be really it's way different. Jumping in a cold shower alone and getting an ice bath with a big group of people cheering you on. Yeah, yeah,

spk_1:   1:1:01
yeah. End of that. Everyone's already gone through it, and everyone's doing the hoo hoo. The energy for sure, is there. So, um, Jeff, I really, really appreciate you getting born roll, sharing your story. Sure, it was amazing. And just to hear how all the different aspects of your life and everything that's come to this point has really all sort of just put a microphone or put a spotlight on connection like that. It's I lied to you that. I mean, that seems like that's just like one of the most important things. Is this connections in any way, shape or form? Right? So where can people find you if they want to get into the the training to the Hold me tight. It's like, Where do you have this information available?

spk_0:   1:1:45
Yeah, so the you know, this is this is kind of my passion projects on my day job, so I'm a little embarrassed by the shape of the website right now, but it's Jeff. Average dot com j f f e v e r a g dot com and, ah, you'll see a little bit about my coaching. There's ah ha page where you'll see where the next workshops are. Um, and yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on.

spk_1:   1:2:07
Yeah. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate it. Thank you.

spk_0:   1:2:09
Yeah. You bet.

spk_1:   1:2:25
Now for the afterthoughts. One thing that I really want to highlight is as a marriage and family therapist, I obviously I'm doing therapy and working with a lot of people who are in a significant amount of distress and their life, and a topic that I often talk about is distressed tolerance, which is basically starting to build up a tolerance to whatever it is the aspects of your life that are causing you discomfort, pain, fear, etcetera, Um, and a big part of sort of what keeps people stuck in the patterns of distress is that we do everything that we can to avoid that, and a lot of times our brains are creating more of a fear around a lot of the things. So I'm not saying that there aren't actual real threats that people are facing or, you know, really abuses or things that are happening. But the sort of self imposed fears and doubts and even, you know, if you've experienced something once before that was abnormal. But it's not really happening that often in your life anymore. Your brain still remembers that and wants to protect you, so it creates scenarios and ways to avoid whatever that situation is. So is interesting to me about the ice bath is that your body is telling you before you even get in that this is something to be afraid of, even though you know no harm is gonna come to you even though it's not going to do any physical damage. Before you even touch that ice water, your brain starts concocting a bunch of ways to avoid the experience that you are about to get involved in. And when you are in the ice bath, even though you know nothing bad is happening to you. Still, the same process continues. Your brain is good at telling you whatever it wants to try to get you out of that distressing situation. So sort of just as an aside to this thing, it was really interesting and fun for me to do that. And it's a really great way to kind of build up and learn about distress tolerance. I'm not saying that this is going to cure anything or help anybody with PTSD or major traumas, but it. But it will help you sort of see that mine play, Ah, the tricks that your brain tries to play on you when you're not in any actual physical danger, but it's still trying to get you out of the way. So just a thought on that, um, something else that I wanted to touch on was Jeff spoke about Go into the VA and using the A as a resource. And I think that that is extremely important to talk about. A lot of vets, I think are passively kind of conditioned not to seek help or not to talk about weakness or anything that's going on. But as you heard in the interview today, going to the V A probably save Jeff life. I mean, maybe that's a stretch, and I don't want to speak for him, but he credits it as being a huge turning point, and they have great resource. Is great technology a lot of stuff that they're working with. They're so just wantto encourage anybody in general the ask out. But also that's people that are struggling utilize that resource. I also quickly wanted a touch on the topic of vulnerability. A lot of us equate vulnerability. You're being vulnerable with exposing yourself or with weakness. And, you know, I I love burn a brown and all of her work. And if you don't know much about burn a brown to great Ted talks the power of vulnerability and listening to shame. She really talks a lot about this and honestly, she explains, that vulnerability is actually the most courageous thing you can do now. There's obviously times when it's not safe to be able, vulnerable or share. You know all the aspects of your life. But when you are willing to put out there what you perceived, what you perceive as your own weaknesses, you're actually standing out there fully exposed and anybody can sort of chop you down. But for one, you're sort of taking the shame away from it by putting out there and owning it and to sharing it and exposing it to the light is really the only way that you're going to start moving through the things that are holding you back, just like Jeff shared when he was finally able to go to the V A. And you know, Mark down on that form that pretty much every day is a bad day. He finally got the help, and it set him in the right direction and on the path where he is now. Also just as a side note, the book that Jeff was talking about is called Tribe on Homecoming and belonging, and it's by Sebastian Younger. And it is a critical look at post traumatic stress disorder and the many challenges today's returning veterans face in modern society. All right, that's it for today. Thank you, everybody.