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Is That Even Legal?
Is That Even Legal?
Love 'em or hate 'em, big trucks are with us for the long haul...
Behind the wheel of every commercial truck is a driver navigating not just America's highways, but a complex maze of regulations that would fill an entire office if printed. Attorney Zac Hargis pulls back the curtain on the unseen challenges facing the transportation industry in this eye-opening conversation about truck drivers' daily regulatory battles.
From the moment they start their day with federally mandated pre-trip inspections to managing electronic logging devices while safely operating vehicles weighing up to 80,000 pounds, truckers face scrutiny at every turn. A single traffic stop can trigger citations at local, state, and federal levels, potentially resulting in fines exceeding $10,000 – enough to devastate a small trucking operation. Meanwhile, these professionals must contend with aggressive passenger vehicles, blind spots that can hide entire cars, and the physics that make it impossible for them to stop as quickly as smaller vehicles expect.
The conversation explores everything from cross-border transportation challenges to the reality that truck drivers face medical scrutiny similar to airline pilots. Sleep apnea, diabetes, and other health conditions aren't just personal matters for truckers – they're regulatory concerns that can impact their livelihood. Hargis also addresses the isolation of life on the road and how truck stops have become unfairly stigmatized despite facing "no more illegal activity than their fair share."
Perhaps most importantly, this episode reminds us of the essential service these road warriors provide. "I've got food on my table because of a truck driver. I've got this shirt on my back because of a truck driver," Hargis notes, emphasizing that most drivers take immense pride in their work despite the sacrifices it demands. Next time you're tempted to cut off a semi or become impatient behind one climbing a hill, remember – they're not trying to slow you down; they're doing their best to keep America running while navigating an almost insurmountable regulatory environment.
Listen now to gain a new perspective on the trucks and drivers that make modern life possible, and learn how specialized legal services are helping these professionals stay on the road.
Is that even legal? It's a question we ask ourselves on a daily basis. We ask it about our neighbors, we ask it about our elected officials, we ask it about our family and sometimes we ask it to ourselves. The law is complex and it impacts everyone all the time, and that's why we are here. I'm attorney Bob Sewell and this is season five of the Worldwide Podcast that explores that one burning question. Is that even legal? Let's go. Today's guest on the show is Zach Hargis. Zach Hargis is an attorney in Oklahoma at Riggs Abney. Zach Hargis is an attorney in Oklahoma at Riggs Abney and he has an interesting practice where he advises people in the transportation industry truck drivers and trucking companies and you could imagine that Oklahoma is a hub for transportation, being where it's located in the country, and so it gives them a unique perspective of what's going on in the transportation industry. So welcome to the show.
Zac Hargis:Thanks. I appreciate the opportunity. Glad to be here.
Bob Sewell:So the reason why I wanted to have you on was because it's summertime, it's road trip time, right? I mean, when I get out on the road, one thing you see a lot of is trucks, and I am reminded as I'm out there and I see the lonely truck driver, the thankless job. He's, disrespected by other motorists, people buzzing around cutting them off, buzzing around cutting them off, and I'm reminded of a case I had when I was a baby attorney and I gained the perspective that I felt like they were a little persecuted under the law as well. So many regulations. My client was pulled over. They were driving one of these light commercial trucks, these Isuzu NPR trucks, if you know what they are, and they're the ones favored by the landscapers, the construction workers, delivery folks, local delivery folks and anyways.
Bob Sewell:These guys were just ignorant of the law and they ended up getting hit with some citations. They were hit with local citations. They were hit with local citations. They were hit with state violation of state law and because they had violated federal law, the state also said and we're citing you for the violations of the federal laws as well, and at the end of the day, we're talking thousands of dollars in fines. I don't remember what it was, but it's over 10 grand in fines and these poor suckers just I mean a small business, you know they. They just were hit and it hurt, yeah, and that's.
Zac Hargis:That's a very common uh circumstance. The problem with drivers in that type of case is, as soon as they get on the road, everybody's their enemy right.
Bob Sewell:So you have local law enforcement.
Zac Hargis:You've got drivers that don't like them on the road because they're going slow up a hill. You got the federal government watching over them. I mean, there's danger for a truck driver around every turn. So that's a very, very common story. One truck stop can honestly ruin a company. I'm not surprised that that turned out that way.
Bob Sewell:So what do we do? I mean, how does it is one skill to drive a truck. Okay, that's a skill.
Zac Hargis:Sure.
Bob Sewell:They're not lawyers, but these laws fill the. The laws will fill an office. If I were to print them all off, yeah, absolutely.
Zac Hargis:No, of course not. Of course not. And there's a lot of people that have tried to make a living helping drivers and companies. There's a lot of people that have tried to reduce the regulatory constraint on drivers, and there's actually some new. If we wanted to get in the weeds a little bit, there's some new federal regulations that are popping up this year that are trying to help with that, but at the end of the day, it's almost insurmountable. If you just reviewed it, you know, sitting there at your kitchen table looking at, hey, I've got to manage this book and I've got to manage these regs and I've got to manage this business interest. I know if I was a truck driver, I would have difficulty daily concentrating on that and driving, because their main task is driving. Their main task is helping us, bring us our TVs, our food, dealing with the drivers on the road. They've got to do that, sometimes nine, ten hours a day. They've got to do that sometimes nine, 10 hours a day. And all this regulatory work.
Bob Sewell:It is an enormous responsibility. Give me a flavor for day in, day out how a truck driver is actively dealing with regulation.
Zac Hargis:It starts first thing in the morning in the yard. Anytime a truck driver gets ready to get out on the road, they've got to do a pre-trip and the pre-trip inspection is something that some drivers will spend the appropriate amount of time doing. Others are being pressured by companies to get through that as quickly as possible and others don't know. You know what that responsibility looks like because it may be insufficient training. So you get all aspects of this coming out first thing in the morning. So they walk out on the road and they kick the tires on the truck, they look and make sure their paperwork is correct. They're checking safety equipment. They've got to do all of that before they do anything else and get on the road.
Zac Hargis:That's a federal requirement, that's a state requirement and that's basic safety and that responsibility checking that equipment, making sure we're running right, making sure we got our paperwork right they've got to manage that throughout the day and throughout the trip. So they're thinking about safety. They're thinking about regulations from minute one on the job. Every day They've got to keep the appropriate paperwork, or nowadays most trucks are using what we call ELDs to manage their time, which is an electronic logging device. It manages their hours of service. All of that is swimming around in their head while they're driving. So you can imagine having to deal with it from minute one. Having to manage these regulations, having to manage the safety of the rig, the people on the road that more often than not aren't very nice to them, having to deal with company constraints, having to deal with scale houses just the road trip that you and I take for granted when we're driving down the road, they're constantly thinking about a number of things in addition to the safety on the road.
Bob Sewell:Your practice is really unique. Tell the listeners what you're doing, the service you're providing, because I think it would be incredibly valuable to a truck driver who's out there.
Zac Hargis:Yeah. So for drivers, for practitioners, for attorneys there are going to be a few points where an attorney or a safety manager or someone that does this type of work in regulation is going to be helpful. What I do is I deal particularly with compliance and interactions with the government. So I'm working on traffic tickets. Easiest thing that everybody understands right you get a speeding ticket. We got to deal with the local court. So that's one interaction. I also deal with federal compliance.
Zac Hargis:So there's, in addition to the state and local rules, like you mentioned in your example in the beginning, there's a federal oversight through the US Department of Transportation. They have a sub-agency program called the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, fmcsa. That FMCSA regulates federally what happens on a truck, with a truck and on a trip. So when you get pulled over by a highway patrolman or a DOT officer, as a truck driver, sometimes you're interacting with those federal rules and it sometimes doesn't go too well, right. So I'm helping them with that. If they get a violation, let's talk about how to avoid it next time. Let's talk about addressing an appeal or addressing a challenge, working within those federal regulations.
Zac Hargis:And then I'm dealing with day-to-day business of being a truck driver and interacting with the state corporation commissions. They give you a fine because you're overweight. Let's deal with that. It's all business Businesses are going to be familiar with this if they do transportation work. But it's all from a business perspective because it's a layer-on-layer approach to penalties. You get a local violation. I've got to deal with the court. I help with that. You get a state violation because you got that ticket. The state wants their cut. I'm dealing with that. And then the federal government comes in and says, hey, you know, I want my piece too, and I'm dealing with that. It's that multi-layered approach that I work on.
Bob Sewell:And people are buying a product to help them reduce the cost for that right. What is that?
Zac Hargis:product. So yeah, so there are. There have been a few in the industry that have popped up that have said, hey, there's a need here, so let's market this to individuals, let's see if we can give them a discount and get that work done. And a lot of my work is through a company called LegalShield. Legalshield is primarily. They became popular beginning in the 70s with their legal plans and programs. It provides legal services from an attorney and referrals, and so a lot of my clients that I work with right now are through kind of a side program that they have called the Commercial Drivers Legal Plan. There are a few of those nationwide. Legal Shield is one of the big ones and that's where a lot of my clients and those interactions come from. And it's a good opportunity for my clients and those interactions come from and it's a good opportunity for me to be able to reach them and it's a good opportunity for folks to save some money through those plans.
Bob Sewell:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I didn't even know that the plan existed until, I think, two weeks ago, and I've been associated. We're a contract provider for LegalShield too, but I do it do it totally different, my practice totally different than yours, and so but I? But when I heard about that I was a man. Man. That would have been really helpful for my client for sure, before that story where they just got socked in the face with these fines beforehand. So they could just well. What about? And should I be?
Zac Hargis:yeah, and isn't that the story with any representation, though? Like man, I have so many clients come through the door and it's like, hey, why didn't you call me before, you did the thing right before? Why are you calling me after you already did it? Man, I can't, I don't know that I can help you.
Zac Hargis:So it's it's a reactive business in part, and it's more so on the commercial driver's side because they have so much swimming around in their head Like, when are they going to find the time to call an attorney? Like, I don't answer the phone at two in the morning, and sometimes these drivers, that's the only time they have free. So so having a system in place where they can reach out to someone, whether it's through an automated service or anything, that's going to be a godsend to them, because they're not supposed to be chatting when they're driving, not supposed to be typing on the phone, right? So those are legal violations. How is this person supposed to get help when you and I aren't in the office taking calls Saturday at 2 pm? So they're not able to access that? So that's another layer of the problem with serving this client base. Whether it's through a plan or not, they need to talk to an attorney, and that's always my advice, but getting them to actually have the time to do that, that's another pain point for them.
Bob Sewell:It's such a huge, huge area of law and such a huge industry. 2.97 million semi trucks I I read uh are registered in the united states and they're, they're, not on the road, all at the same time they're. They're logging 184 billion annual annual miles a year.
Bob Sewell:Excuse me, excuse me, um a hundred there's a big 184 billion miles annually, yeah, um, and 500 million miles a day, that it's huge, yeah. So I mean it's, there's going to be issues and the regulations are. Let me ask you some questions first. Okay, sure, let's go Tell me. Tell me going to give you some scenarios. You tell me what you would recommend in advance and afterwards for the truck driver. So I have a really I'm a really aggressive driver, zach, okay, and I can't stand those truck drivers. They're so slow on the road and they think they own the road. I think what I'm going to do in my Mazda Miata okay, I love a good Mazda Miata. Okay, sure, who doesn't? I'm just going to zip right past those truck drivers and slam on my brakes. That'll teach them. They carry big insurance policies and when I, when my Mazda's hit, I'm going to sue them for all their worth.
Zac Hargis:Yeah, and so your Mazda Miata is going to get turned into a beer can.
Bob Sewell:That's what's going to happen.
Zac Hargis:That's what's going to happen. The the the issue that I think drivers America is weird. I haven't traveled a lot internationally but in the places that I have that the bigger population centers everybody else seems to have nicer drivers. Like in America we have almost, we almost feel entitled to occupy space on the road. And the problem is the way your car reacts is not the way that truck is going to react. It's going to take it a lot, a lot longer distance to slow down and stop. You can't't brake, check them, they're just, I mean they're. They can't do anything if they cannot move and you are going to get seriously injured. And the other part to remember with that is even in the circumstance where you think, hey, I'm willing to take the hit because I'm desperate, the trucks have cameras. The vast majority of the trucks out there have outward facing dash cams and they're going to be able to see it and insurance is going to say, no, you know, you're not going to be able to handle it.
Zac Hargis:I've had clients, and I deal with clients of all types of, whether it's wealth or operation.
Zac Hargis:I've had clients where small operation you know, traditional mom pop business where they get into one of these either it's a road rage situation or it's insurance scam situation and they don't have tech, they don't have dash cams.
Zac Hargis:You know it's a he said, she said type of deal and they're tough to fight but at the end of the day, you know you have a driver that is a professional, you have a driver that has to do things a certain way and if that small car is too close to them when they turn over, you know that's the car's fault. You know that's going to be the vehicle driver's fault. So that road rage, the short answer I know I kind of rambled a little bit with that explanation the short answer is that driver in that Miata is going to lose. They're going to lose, to lose, they're going to lose the wreck, they're going to lose the case and any attorney that's looking at that. There are going to be exceptions where maybe that Miata driver was able to pull one over on the court. But man, you're risking your life, the driver's life, your family's life, the people that are riding out there.
Bob Sewell:It's going to create an issue, that truck jackknife we got a lot of people piling up, but you said something key there. The driver is going to be needs to have that outward facing camera for his protection, her protection, right.
Zac Hargis:Yeah, every consultation I have with a driver since I started doing this work has been you need more tech in the cab than you have right now, and that doesn't mean I want them to have iPads and cell phones. But they should have dash cam, they should have cab cam and they should have something called an EDR, which is electronic data recorder. It's similar to like a black box on an airplane and it tracks things like the delta force on an impact and other things that some newer cars have built in. The reason that tech is important is we can track GPS, we can track speed, we can see an image of what happened, we can figure out you know the distance on passing.
Zac Hargis:All of that is going to protect a driver and in the beginning, when I was trying to advocate this to my clients, their response was well, that's a violation of privacy. Without arguing the constitutional bit of that there, the bottom line is you're in a cab where you could lose your job, you could lose your house if you lose an argument because you were too proud to have a cap cam or a dash cam. You know it's. It's worth the investment. You know a good, a good dash cam costs you less than 200 bucks. Uh, you've got to have that to protect yourself.
Bob Sewell:You've got to and I was talking to a trucker. Um, he had a, he had a issue with a. Um, an insurance issue come up, um, and his issue was the age. What happens to truckers all the time, the minute they hit their blinker that they're going to change lanes, is someone changes lanes and guns it. Yep, right, yeah, and you know, and that you know. Once they're in motion, it's hard to stop.
Zac Hargis:Yeah, and so there's, there's a scientific reason for that, right, and it's like you roll a boulder down the hill you can't push it out of the way once it's going. So those trucks, whether they're fully loaded or not, you know it's, it's a big beast to turn. We've, we've got to make sure when we're a driver on the road that we respect not only the rules of the road but we respect the size. It's similar Like if you, if you encounter any, let's say, you go on a safari, right, and you're out on the ground and you're checking stuff out and there's vegetation and there's birds, you're not worried, you're not giving the birds space. You see a hippo, an elephant, a lion. You're giving them space, you're giving them distance because there's danger there. It's the same thing with a truck. You know I've gotten probably more annoyed than I need to with people I'm riding with when they take too much time to pass a semi. That's a danger.
Zac Hargis:That's a danger. Tell me that. So when you get into a passing lane to get past a semi, there is going to be a point where the driver, at a glance, with their mirror, may not be able to see you. And it depends on a few things happening on the road and it depends on your position in the lane. They may not be able to see you at that first glance. And if they can't see you and I'm not saying that good, bad, just whatever that's reality the reality is they may not see you at a glance. It's much worse for motorcycle riders which is probably a different podcast episode because I have lots to say about them but for a car, they may not see you.
Zac Hargis:So when you get in that passing lane to get around a semi, get around the semi. You've got to go, because if you don't, the longer you linger, you are increasing the chances for a traffic event where there's going to be an issue, whether you have to go off to the shoulder, whether there's an impact, there's going to be a situation that's created by that time. So you have to be cautious and conscious of that. There's some things that you'll see stickers on the back of trucks where it'll say you know, if you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you, type of deal. Reality is, even if you can see their mirror, same result. You know, they may not be able to see you at first glance. You've got to be watching for that.
Bob Sewell:One of the things that I've been curious about is you know, up until relatively recently we had a lot of NAFTA traffic, right. I mean I think that's been reducing since this administration, but we had trucks coming up from Mexico and we had trucks coming down from Canada. Do they have to abide by our laws? Are they under the same restrictions that the other drivers are?
Zac Hargis:Yeah, 100%. And there are companies that specialize in cross-border travel and transport. Those companies have to have their compliance in order, they have to have their pre-trips in order, because they are guaranteed to get looked at when you cross a border. You're guaranteed to get looked at. If I'm if I'm a US based driver and I just drive from Kansas to Maryland, you know every month, you know there are it is possible that I never get pulled over by law enforcement for at least 12 months running that route, never get pulled over by law enforcement for at least 12 months running that route. So it's possible that nobody's ever going to look at my truck. It's not likely, I'm sure there's probably some stats out there on that, but it's possible.
Zac Hargis:When you do international, you're guaranteed to get looked at every day, every day. So you have to have your stuff in order, you have to have your paperwork in order, your equipment's got to be good, you've got to be familiar with it. And now there are additional enforcement measures and additional enforcement floors for the driver, fitness, part of that, which is, of course, the language, and a few other things that have come up. So normally, folks that are working in businesses that do that work, not only do they have to comply with that FMCSA component, you know the federal requirement, they've got to comply with the state rules. They've also got cross-border international rules they have to comply with. So another layer of complexity. But those ships usually are a little bit better set up than ours than ours.
Bob Sewell:What's interesting is it's not just the truck that's regulated in transportation. It's not just a truck. You get the fact that trucks have to be maintained in a certain way, they have to have lights in a certain place and that they have to be running at certain hours, but or rather the driver gets to drive during certain times or certain number of hours, but the physical body of the truck driver is regulated too.
Zac Hargis:Sure, and it was more of an issue in prior years because of sort of the more full-forced approach with how they regulated that. So a big. Whenever you talk to anybody about this issue that maybe is not familiar, they'll think of sleep apnea because there was a time where a lot of those providers and medical review officers were calling that out and the driver had to get a CPAP and do all this stuff because that was all they knew to do to kind of churn them through. Thankfully, the newer the regulations get and the more experienced these MROs, the medical review officers, get, they're doing a better job of looking at the fitness level. But you're right, things like what drugs you're prescribed, even if they're perfectly legal, could affect your ability to drive.
Zac Hargis:There are certain basics what they call basics in the federal regulation, where there's different categories. Driver fitness is one, for obvious reasons, and when you're looking at how those are handled from the company perspective and from the medical provider perspective, just as detailed as the technical requirements and sometimes just as difficult to get through there's a yeah, and there's people that make their living handling that niche right. So that opens up the ability for someone like me that does traffic work If I know someone that works with truck drivers on fitness. You know we bring in another expert to help them if a company is struggling with that.
Bob Sewell:Yeah, and, and it's different because, like um, as an attorney, you know it's almost a stereotype. You know that we attorneys are incredibly unhealthy. We sit down they a lot of attorneys drink too much, they cuss too much, but you get the. If I have sleep apnea, that's my business. Who the heck cares? Right? If I have diabetes, that's my business. Who the heck cares? If I don't choose to go to the doctor, who cares?
Zac Hargis:That's not true for truck drivers to these drivers are some of the same regulation styles that apply to airplane pilots. Why? Because they're flying a big metal rock in the sky that, if something goes bad, people are going to get hurt. It's the same thing with a semi. It's the same thing with commercial transport. All the trucks on the road, all the drivers, have to do the way the truckers are pushed. The industry is not forgiving for the driver. The industry is difficult, not just the regulatory work, not just the pain points with law enforcement and regulation, but just the physical work itself and the expectation that my clients have imposed upon them from these companies and these brokers and these routes. It's rough and so health being an issue and a concern is obvious. It's obvious for anybody. And then the throwback to your point about us. You know, if I have diabetes, who cares? Well, maybe we should care more, right? Maybe employers should care a little bit more about that. Maybe there should be something else going on with that.
Bob Sewell:So what about the sleazier side of the law of trucking? Someone knocking on your door in the middle of the night?
Zac Hargis:the lot lizard your door in the middle of the night. Yeah, the lot lizard, yeah, so I. I that real does that happen, sure, sure, and so when a lot lizard is a pejorative that's been around for a long time, um, I think nowadays it's been on who you talk to, you know that's either either a sex worker, right, or someone that's looking to trade for drugs, or someone's looking to trade for a ride, and that, and that happens everywhere, whether we're talking about truck trucking or not. But or someone that's looking to trade for drugs, or someone that's looking to trade for a ride, and that happens everywhere, whether we're talking about trucking or not. But a truck stop is ideal for certain illicit activity. It's not as bad as it used to be because of the regulation work that's happened and the awareness from Highway Patrol, but it's still an issue. There are certain truck stops in the US where I'm not going to on the pod, but I could that are a little bit more apt than others to allow certain types of illegal activity, and that's known throughout the truckers that run that route, and that's not good or bad. That's just a reality of society, right? We all, every area Attorneys, are no different than truck drivers in that sometimes we good or bad, that's just a reality of society, right? We all every area attorneys are no different than truck drivers in that sometimes we make some bad choices.
Zac Hargis:Truck stops have a reputation because of things like that lot lizard, you know phrasing and the way that it's portrayed in some movies and TV that maybe they're more apt to be subject to criminal activity than other areas Anymore, is just not true. It just has its fair share. Truck stops just have their fair share of illegal activity. And truck drivers being alone on the road week in, week out, it wears you down, just like living in poverty wears somebody down, just like being lonely because your family passed away or left or any other life circumstance you have. You're isolated and when you get isolated like truck drivers are by design it opens up that opportunity. So counseling drivers as an attorney, watch out for the danger and know your community. Trying to press that to my clients to get on the other side of it is part of the job. I'm not just representing them on tickets, I'm trying to keep them in the seat. I'm trying to keep their career with them. I'm trying to keep them out of trouble, and that's part of the conversation, especially for younger drivers.
Bob Sewell:Yeah, and, and you know you, you, if you get caught up in a sting operation when you're a truck driver, then, yeah, your license is going to be affected right and and people.
Zac Hargis:Typically and this is not just in trucking but in any other area people are going to be more aware of the bad stuff because the bad stuff gets press. So when we talk about human trafficking or smuggling, a lot of people will see a news story about a truck driver that gets caught doing something maybe they shouldn't have and they'll say sometimes I didn't know. Well, that can happen. It actually can happen that you were participating in human trafficking as a truck driver and you didn't know. There's a question there of whether you should have or not. Maybe ask a couple of questions. Question there of whether you should have or not, maybe ask a couple of questions. But it's possible because that situation in isolation for that truck driver they don't sometimes have the support they need to avoid that. So people see that in the media and then they can run with it. But it's really no different than any other industry. The big case is just get the press.
Bob Sewell:So final, we're getting to the final questions here and then I'm gonna let you go back to your practice. But the question is, I have is what do you wish? The rest of us knew us impatient drivers on the road, the, the mazda miata guys, I don't have a Miata, but if I had a Miata, uh, the, you know, the Nissans, the Fords, the. What do you wish? That one thing you wish we knew.
Zac Hargis:The the vast majority of truck drivers in those seats are proud of what they do and are trying to do it the best they can because of the result. They enjoy the work, because they help people with what they do. They're not out to get you, they're not out to upset you. They're doing what their equipment allows them to do. So you have food on the table. It is a proud industry. It's a noble cause, because they're sacrificing their body and their family and everything else in order to do something that we take for granted, which is I've got this shirt on my back because of a truck driver. I've got food on my table because of a truck driver.
Zac Hargis:That's you in that seat. It's not some evildoer that's trying to hurt people. It's not some driver that's out there to ruin your traffic day. It's someone that is proud to do that job and they're doing the best they can. And, just like anything else, there's going to be exceptions. But if we recognize that, whether we call that empathy or respect or whatever word we want to use, if we recognize that and we treat them like we would your brother, your sister, your mother, your father on the road, everything gets a lot easier.
Bob Sewell:Everything Attorney Zach Zach Argus. Thanks for coming on.
Zac Hargis:No, I appreciate the opportunity, man Anytime. This was great, this was fun.
Bob Sewell:Thanks for listening to the podcast Is that Even Legal is now listened to in a hundred countries and available on virtually all podcast platforms. Leave us a review, send us some show ideas and do so at producer at even legalcom. Don't forget, as smart as we sound and as lovable as we are, we are not your lawyers and we are not giving you legal advice. But if you need some legal advice, get some. There are some great lawyers out there and we are always ready to help. See you next time.