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Is That Even Legal?
Is That Even Legal?
Swift, Kelce, and the Prenup Playbook
The law doesn’t care how romantic your story is: creditors, community property rules, and default statutes move the same way whether you’re a billionaire songwriter or a hometown athlete. We dig into the real purpose of a prenup: not to plan a breakup, but to build a clear financial framework that protects income, isolates debt, and keeps your estate plan from turning into a family brawl. Using the Swift–Kelce engagement as a timely lens, we translate headline drama into practical guidance anyone can use.
We walk through the biggest misconceptions first. In many states, money earned after the wedding becomes community property, even if it lands in an account titled to one spouse. That means one partner’s creditors can reach the other partner’s earnings or bonuses without a single misstep at home. A well-crafted prenup flips those defaults, designating income as separate, walling off business liabilities, and preventing “community liens” from quietly forming on premarital assets like homes, companies, and royalties. We also map the clauses that matter most: property characterization, income rules, debt allocation, spousal support options, disclosure and counsel requirements, and dispute resolution that keeps fights out of court.
Estate planning gets a spotlight too. Clear property definitions reduce probate and trust litigation, especially for blended families balancing care for a spouse with inheritances for children. We share cautionary tales - from invalid napkin contracts to celebrity payouts - and explain why DIY templates and last-minute signatures invite disaster. If you own a business, bring a home into marriage, have kids from a prior relationship, or carry complex debts, this is your playbook for protecting love from legal fallout. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who’s engaged, and leave a quick review to help more people find practical legal insight without the jargon.
Is that even legal? It's a question we ask ourselves on a daily basis. We ask it about our neighbors, we ask it about our elected officials, we ask it about our families, and sometimes we ask it to ourselves. The law is complex and it impacts everyone all the time. And that's why we are here. I'm attorney Bob Stow, and this is season five of the worldwide podcast that explores that one burning question. Is that even legal? Let's go. Today's guest on the show is Spencer Schiefer. Spencer is a fantastic divorced attorney here in Arizona. Spencer, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me back. Spencer, I've got some heavy stuff to talk about here today, like really heavy to stuff. Uh first of all, you have to know that everyone in my house that's female is a huge, huge Taylor Swift fan. And now, because of this, Travis Kelsey slash Chanvas Kansas Chiefs fan. So the whole announcement that Taylor Swift is becoming has become engaged to Travis Kelsey, big deal. Big stuff here.
Speaker 00:Yeah, much to the uh chagrin of 2025 NFL fans, I'm sure. This narrative will dominate the season, but uh it'll be fun.
Speaker 02:So he but in all seriousness, this is a like this, this, these people are a power couple. Travis Kelsey, Travis Kelsey is the poor one. His his estimates of net worth are somewhere in the 70 plus million category. He has real estate holdings, he has businesses, he has uh he has luxury cars, he's got brand endorsements, he does philanthropy work. His estate is pretty dang complicated and pretty diverse. And at 70 plus million, it makes him one of the richest people in the U.S. Taylor Swift is no slouch, right? I mean, she's estimated in the in the you know one plus billion dollars. She's got the royalties from her from her uh music catalog. She owns a lot of our music catalogs, she has real estate holdings, she has um her own business holdings, she has a private jet. These these are serious uh business people, serious um, you know, football player and uh and singers, and it it's this is complicated, am I right?
Speaker 00:It it it definitely is, and it's uh it's an interesting scenario and um obviously you know happy for him on a personal level. But yeah, Travis is uh incredibly successful in his career, and he's a very personable guy, so he's got a lot of endorsement deals. In fact, I was just ran by American Eagle the other day and saw huge you know poster ads of him plastered all over the place. So he's he's uh he's got a really good career, and and usually guys in his position, you know, football players in particular, they're always kind of having to be careful and worry about, you know, whoever they're dating, you know, if if they're you know, are they in it for me or are they in it for the money? Right. And now ironically, this is a reverse scenario where I mean, I don't think Taylor really has to worry about Travis being in it for the money because he's independently wealthy. But now it's a it's a totally different um discussion, totally different game of the the money situation that both of these people have to you know consider and think about. And because they're successful and because they're smart and savvy, I'm sure it's something that's gonna be on the table.
Speaker 02:Let's talk about the the most unromantic thing we can talk about, prenup. Okay, yeah. There's got to be a prenup here. I mean, it has to be a prenup. Um and it's not just divorce, right? We're not worried about just divorce.
Speaker 00:No, there's there's a you know, for a lot of my clients, I tell them, well, one, I always say, look, if you if you get married, you know, or get married again, like you gotta tell you talk to your fiance about a prenup and just blame it on me. Just tell them my attorney says I have to, as unsexy as it is. But yeah, it's it's not just a plan for divorce. Uh a prenup can be uh and is so many other things, including uh it's very integral to a very smart estate plan. And uh, and we could talk about how, and it's also very integral for um, you know, potentially tax, but certainly, you know, asset protection uh and debt management. And it can be incredibly useful for um, you know, if they do end up separating, it it's you know, in my opinion, they're worth their weight in gold in the money that they'll save on the back end should things, you know, not pan out.
Speaker 02:Yeah, and I and I think that's an you know, we we think about prenup, we think about, well, you're just planning for this marriage not to succeed. But no, I mean, I I really didn't understand until you know I started talking to you about these things, is that, no, it's part of estate planning, it's part of your business assets management. Because even though these people are incredibly wealthy, they they also have debts. Everyone has debts, and I'm certain they're not in a caste position on everything, because sometimes debt is strategic. And then they have strategic business relationships. And so they're hanging out there for um for people to sue them because they are so wealthy, they are so successful. And so, how do you insulate your partner from all the risks and liabilities, not just planning for the divorce, a potential divorce, but how do you insulate your partner against the risks and liabilities of your business relationship, business relationships? And and the answer is a prenup.
Speaker 00:Yeah, absolutely. I'll I'll give you like um I mean, here's an example. Uh, and this all kind of depends on um for each individual, not just you know, Taylor and Travis, but each individual is gonna be dependent on where they live, the the property laws and family laws of your particular state. But since I know Arizona, let's roll with that. So let's assume a power couple like this in Arizona, and they don't get a prenup. Presumptively, all the income earned during the marriage is gonna be community property. So let's say they get married and one spouse has a very monstrous um debt, uh, strategic debt, but business debt that they had prior to the marriage. And then they get married, no prenup, and then the other spouse, um, let's say an athlete, right, and gets a monster signing bonus during the marriage uh for future years of work. That signing bonus is going to be community property. Let's say things go south with the business debt, the debtor or the creditor comes call in and says, Okay, well, I can go after at least half your half of community property, which would include half of that monster signing bonus. So just from a you know, unfortunate circumstances, a cash flow um reasons, almost immediately a significant portion of money earned by one spouse in the marriage can be exposed and subject to the set separate debts of the other spouse, just like that. Whereas if you had a prenup that identified that income during the marriage wasn't going to be community, all of that money could be protected. So we do that quite a bit, especially where spouses have like um maybe spousal maintenance obligations from a prior marriage, uh, tax debts uh in particular, that can be really important to protect and and uh guard against that. Uh, so there's there's a number of ways where I've seen it with, you know, down to average Joe's, where it's incredibly smart to have a prenup to protect that future income and to not expose it to um one spouse's separate debts um that maybe you just can't do anything about.
Speaker 02:Yeah. And one of the things that's interesting, it's not you're not just you're not saying, oh, hey, I'm never gonna provide for you in a prenup. That's not what you're saying. What you're saying is how we're gonna treat assets while we're married. And and it's generally part of an overall estate plan, am I right?
Speaker 00:It it absolutely is. And so one of the other things I tell people is say, you know, let's assume that you guys uh stay married forever, uh, level your life, uh, spirit. Um again, I think the word I'm looking for, your soulmate, your soulmate. There you go. And I say, uh, let's say Were you gonna say spirit animal? That was on the tongue. That didn't come out right. Your soulmates. Um yeah, maybe you have compatible spirit animals, who knows? Um so let's say you get uh let's say you guys uh stay married forever and you guys pass away in the bed together, notebook style, you know, love story of the century, whatever. Um, a printup is still incredibly useful because it would impact the characterization of your property and your spouse's property upon your death, too. And so uh one of the things that can happen is even if you and your spouse have zero issues and you stay married, you know, all the way through the end of your lives, uh, your kids or even your grandkids or your kids or grandkids' spouses can be the source of contention fighting over what's grandpa's, what's grandmas, and anything in between. And so to avoid a lot of probate and or trust litigation, having a prenup that clearly identifies what is what uh can really help and dispel a lot of those litigations. Um, maybe probate lawyers may not love that because it makes it so there's less to fight about, but it saves the family and the state a lot of money.
Speaker 02:People trying to plan in advance is really it's gonna put a damper in my business. I mean, I need people to be crazy as in order to keep my business going here, man. So don't give them a good idea. So yeah, it's it's more than just planning for the divorce. Let me give you some though. If you do get divorced, the parade of horribles, okay?
Speaker 00:Yeah, let's hear.
Speaker 02:Um here's one that gets me. You think about Paul McCartney and Heather Mills. Uh, Paul McCarthy gets married in 2002. All his assets really are derived from his work with the Beatles and the buying and selling of his performances and his catalogs, whatever else he has in assets. So he gets married in 2002 without a prenup. He gets div, he gets divorced in 2008. He pays this woman 48.7 million dollars plus alimony and child support when all his assets are derived from before the marriage. Prenup. Good idea.
Speaker 00:Yeah, I mean, going back to what I said that they're worth their weight in gold. I mean, in that case, it might even be more so. I mean, for context, Bob, like I would say your typical prenup with a good lawyer, you know, it's gonna run you, you know, a few thousand bucks, maybe a little bit more, uh super complicated one. Like, let's say you're dealing with someone like Paul McCartney, a state of that magnitude. We're probably talking like low 10,000, tens of thousands of dollars versus the tens of millions that he paid out, right?
Speaker 02:Yeah, well, hey, you should have had this talk with Steven Spielberg, who when he married Amy Irving, he went out, got a prenup on, he wrote a prenup on his on a napkin. And uh from there, the court deemed that invalid. It cost them a hundred million dollars.
Speaker 00:Yeah, and so the you know, we would laugh about that now. But here's the the word of caution, right? That now that we're in what is it, 2025, we would laugh about that now and mock him, you know, whatever, and and lay people would laugh and say, oh my gosh, a napkin. But what a lot of people who aren't thinking about it, what they might do is they're gonna go to Chat GPT or on Google and they're gonna come up with their own, you know, poor man's version of a prenup. And just like a poor man's version of a will or a trust or a state plan, I mean, it's kind of like it's one of those documents where if you don't get it right, you're not gonna know about it until it's too late. So something that you really gotta you gotta treat it like an investment, right? You gotta you wouldn't get life insurance from Chat GPT, uh, you know. Um, and so you want to make sure it's done right, not on a napkin.
Speaker 02:That brings me, could I have a valid prenup on a napkin? Absolutely. Yeah. So it was just the way he did his napkin, which was the problem, right?
Speaker 00:Yeah, yeah. It's it's theoretically possible. Um, I mean, you know, napkin, just like I mean, it's a form of paper, right? So uh theoretically it could be done, um, but it it's gotta be done right, gotta jump through the hoops, gotta, you know, check the boxes that the applicable state law requires. Um, and that could be, you know, hard signatures, it could be notarization, uh, just kind of depends on where you're getting married and and what the law requires. So you got to make sure you comply with that. Otherwise, it's not worth anything.
Speaker 02:And what's interesting is I bet you, and tell me if you've ever heard this one, someone gets together with their fiance and they say, let's let's uh hammer out what our prenup will be. And so they hammer out the terms and and the, you know, they're both procrastinators or they're still struggling with this concept. And so they just go ahead and get married. And then they come to Spencer Schiefer, or one of them does and says, All right, now it's time to get this thing done right. Too late. Uh or is it not too late?
Speaker 00:But this is all still before they get married?
Speaker 02:After so they they hammer out the terms before they get married, they get married because the procrastinators they don't get it done ahead of time. Is it too late to get the prenup?
Speaker 00:Uh absolutely. Now, because I mean it it's in the name, right? Pre-Nup. Prenuptial. So if you don't get it done before you say I do, and before the wedding ceremony or the actual marriage takes effect, uh it's too late. You can't go back in time. You can't do a prenup after you're married.
Speaker 02:But I can't do but I can do a post-nuptial, right?
Speaker 00:That you can. Um, the only issue, uh, and and post-nuptials can be very effective and definitely have a place. Um, they're just two different, going back to spirit animals, they're two different animals under the law. Uh, they're treated incredibly different as far as the legal standards, the enforceability, um, what you know you theoretically you can and can't do with them. Uh, they're they're completely different uh in in many, many ways. And a post nup, in my opinion, is never a uh complete replacement for a prenup. Um, they're still useful and can be explored. Um, but if you really want to be protected and really want to make sure you you got yourself covered, um a prenup is really the way to go.
Speaker 02:Give me the top five things I'm gonna want to address in a prenup, or those top whatever number of things I should address in a prenup.
Speaker 00:Yeah. So so one of the main things that we do, and and this is always surprising to people, um, is we address, if if nothing else, the the most basic, in my opinion, most basic prenup, what we're covering is making sure that your separate property stays separate. Um, so let's say, let's say you come into the marriage and you have a house and you want that house to stay with you no matter what, even if you get divorced, or even when you pass away, so you can leave it to, you know, whoever. When you get married without a prenup, technically speaking, that house is your separate property. But if you don't have a prenup, what happens is uh as you get married, as you work on that house, as you make additions, as you pay down the mortgage, all of those things are gonna create what we refer to as a community lien. And so in effect, what happens is yes, that house is yours, but if you want to keep it when you pass away or when you get divorced, you're gonna have to pay your other spouse a portion of the value or equity of that house. So in that sense, it's not not yours. So one of the most basic things that we would do in the prenup to cover our clients is we would create a provision that basically says all of the rents, all the revenues, all the increases in value of your separate property, no matter what, is gonna stay your separate property. So we don't run into those issues where people are, in effect, paying to keep their own property. So that's that's probably number one. Uh let's see, number two, kind of in line with that is income. So uh kind of going back to the napkin example, a lot of people think or have this idea that, hey, if I get married and if we just don't mix accounts, then and we keep everything separated, it's gonna be my money, it's gonna be my spouse's money, and not community money. And that's not true. So uh in Arizona, for example, if you get married, and let's say all of your bank accounts are in only your name, and you get your paycheck, you deposit that paycheck only in your bank account, and you think to yourself, that's my money. Not true. Uh, under Arizona law, that money earned during the marriage, it's community property. Doesn't matter what bank account it goes into, and doesn't matter that that bank account's only in your name. So that's really shocking to a lot of people, but we can fix that with a prenup. In a prenup, we can say income that husband earns is his separate property, income that wife earns is her separate property. So we can do those changes with a prenup that is not what how it is under Arizona law. That's probably the second big one. Um, third big one, I would say, is dealing with spousal support. So in some of the examples you mentioned, you mentioned uh alimony, right? Spousal support. And so we can do one of three things in a prenup. We can kind of do nothing and just leave it up to Arizona law, you know, two-edged sword, maybe okay, maybe not. We can say complete waiver where neither one's gonna pay the other on spousal support. Kind of a two-edged sword, hard to predict the future, but a lot of people opt for that. And number three is we can say put some specific terms in there. And that could range anything from if we've been married for so long, then they'll be entitled to X amount for X duration. So we can come up with some a variety of different ways that are fair to both spouses and consider both spouses' um employment uh situations, employment opportunities, what their future looks like, those kinds of things. Um, but yeah, uh definitely one of the top things that people deal with in a prenup is trying to figure out ahead of time what are we gonna do or not do with regard to spousal support. Uh and on that note, Bob, just so you know, child support, uh no go. We would never include, and we can include uh in a prenup child support uh payments, uh what the parenting schedule is gonna look like if it came to that. Um just something that doesn't go in there, um, wouldn't be enforceable, so we don't even bother. Um so no child support.
Speaker 02:Uh could I if I if I'm Taylor and Travis, can I pre-negotiate the names of our children?
Speaker 00:Well, you can sure as you could sure try, but it's uh probably not enforceable. There's yeah, a lot of things that you see in movies or whatever, uh, you know, it's kind of more there for entertainment value, but you know, I'm sure, you know, if I'm Travis, yeah, I want to pick some real masculine names and you know negotiate that they're gonna play football and you know, all those kinds of things. But yeah, that kind of stuff, yeah, not gonna fly, I don't think.
Speaker 02:The the interesting thing is if what you're describing makes a lot of sense for, especially for people like Taylor and Travis, because it if you think about NFL NFL personalities and stars are not known for hanging on to their money, right? I I wouldn't, I I don't think that's an ex uh a rule, but it's certainly it's more than just uh a stereotype, right? It I mean, there's a lot of money that's gained and lost by by these NFL types. They're they come into the money very young, they don't really necessarily have great business managers, they have all these hangers on who then just start to suckle off the the money they're making, they and they siphon it away. And so here we have a guy who's worth a a lot of money, but he could have an injury, he can make a really bad investment, and we can go from you know 70 million to 20 million really quick, and from 20 million, and and you watch this money and it goes away very, very quickly if these interests aren't carefully watched, and so we could end up with a situation theoretically where they're coming back and saying, hey Taylor, um Travis did 50 million dollars of damage to me and my business because he didn't perform. And uh we want you to pay this, pay that. And that wouldn't be really great for any for either of them. Am I right? Am I seeing this right?
Speaker 00:Oh, yeah, you absolutely are. And so that's you know, kind of hand in hand with you know keeping income separate. We also would uh often do keeping debts separate. So that way any prior debt and including even any new uh debt incurred during the marriage, uh particularly say like business debt or investments, uh those kinds of things during the marriage, uh, we often would keep those separate too uh to protect for that very scenario that you're talking about. Um, you know, they're in that in that scenario without a prenup, yeah, any bad debt or any collections that uh would maybe come against Travis in that scenario, uh yeah, people could come looking for the spouse and saying, hey, we want marital property, we want community property, and could go after, you know, Taylor for to collect on that. Absolutely.
Speaker 02:Now look, you and I, when we got married, we got married young and dumb, right? I mean, both were young and dumb. And we uh we had student loans, that was our asset. We had student loans, mate, maybe a crappy car, right? But we there was no net worth when right some people like us, we we don't need a prenup. When do we need a prenup? Like when does it become important that yeah, we're gonna get a prenup here?
Speaker 00:Well, I don't know. I mean my 1999 Honda Accord was pretty valuable for quite a while. Uh really lasted me quite a long time. Um although it wasn't even that was that was my wife's car, actually. So it wasn't even mine. Um yeah, great question. When do we need a prenup? Here's here's like the the most common scenarios, I think. Um I think in any for anyone going into their second uh or later marriage, um especially later in life when you have established career, you have established income, I think that's really important. Uh anyone who has children from another marriage, so this kind of goes back to the estate planning thing. So if you have children from another marriage or children from another relationship and you get married, uh you have now competing financial obligations, competing financial desires. You would want to leave something for your kids, but you'd also want to leave something for your spouse. And so to kind of manage those two goals, those two objectives, um, identifying what's yours and what's uh to go hand in hand with how you want to uh manage your estate, a prenup is incredibly helpful. Uh anyone who owns a business uh going into a marriage, anyone who owns a house going into a marriage, anyone uh who's marrying either themselves or if their spouse has a large debt that just can't go away. Um, you know, even including some debts can't be discharged in bankruptcy, or maybe they don't want to file bankruptcy. Uh so to protect against those, um, I think a prenup would be really helpful. So yeah, maybe the the young couple who have no assets, no kids, nothing like that, you know, prenup might not make sense. Uh, but to anyone who's getting married later in life, anyone who has kids, anyone who has a house, business, or some some other asset um going into the marriage, um I think all of them uh should at least have a console with an attorney to say, you know, here's my situation, you know, what happens if I do and what happens if I don't? And just understand that's and then you can make an informed decision.
Speaker 02:All right. So let's say I'm a soon-to-be married person. How would I how would I get a hold of you, Spencer, and uh get my prenup?
Speaker 00:Yeah. So you know, you contact our office, ask to have a consult with me, um and then we'd sit down and we'd go over uh your s situation, discuss it, figure out your finances, your property, your debts, and come up with a plan that makes sense and kind of protects you. It's it's it's kind of like um it's like insurance in a sense, um in that it's a a legal, you know, financial document mechanism that can protect you for future what-ifs. And so much like getting insurance, you'd want to sit down with someone and figure out what makes the most sense for you. Because depending on your situation, you know, it might not make sense to get a certain amount of coverage or certain type of coverage. And so that's why sitting down with someone like me would be helpful to figure out what's right for you rather than you know, turning to the internet.
Speaker 02:No, all the best legal answers are found on the internet, Spencer. I mean, do I get my medical advice? Yeah. Um D, for sure. Diagnosing. Okay, so uh, Spencer, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the podcast. Is that of illegal is now listened to in a hundred countries and available on virtually all podcast platforms. Leave us a review, send us some show ideas, and do so at producer at evenlegal.com. Don't forget, as smart as we sound and as lovable as we are, we are not your lawyers. And we are not giving you legal advice. But if you need some legal advice, get stuck. There's some great lawyers out there, and we are always ready to help. See you next time.