Injury Lawyers Advertise EVERYWHERE...Is That How You Should Choose?

Arizona changed the rules of the legal game, and most people have no idea it happened. When the state allowed alternative business structures, it opened the door for non-lawyers and private equity to have ownership stakes in law firms and to share in fees, a shift that sounds like “access to justice” on paper but can reshape incentives in the real world.

We sit down with Nate Preston, managing attorney at Warnock MacKinlay Law in Scottsdale, to unpack what we’re seeing on the ground in personal injury law. We talk about the billboard boom, why “volume” settlement practices can quietly drag down what injury victims take home, and how insurance companies use reputation and data to decide which firms get serious offers. If a firm rarely litigates, adjusters know it, and that can change everything from the first demand to the final number.

Nate also shares concrete stories that show how much money can be left on the table when a lawyer rushes a case: evaluating ongoing pain, timing medical treatment, and digging into underinsured motorist coverage and household policies can turn a small settlement into a life-changing recovery. We also shift to emerging accident trends, including e-bike and e-scooter injuries, sidewalk defect claims against cities with strict 180-day deadlines, and what driverless cars and accident avoidance systems mean for evidence, discovery, and fault arguments.

If you want a clearer way to choose a personal injury lawyer in Arizona and avoid getting sold by marketing instead of skill, hit play. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave us a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Arizona Opens Law Firm Ownership

Billboards, Volume Shops, And Reputation

Robert Sewell 0:04

Is that even legal? It's a question we ask ourselves on a daily basis. We ask it about our neighbors. We ask it about our elected officials. We ask it about our families. And sometimes we ask it to ourselves. The law is complex and it impacts everyone all the time. And that's why we are here. I'm attorney Bob Sewell, and this is season five of the Worldwide Podcast that explores that one burning question. Is that illegal? Let's go. Today's guest on the show is Nate Preston. Nate Preston is the managing attorney at the Warnock [Mackinlay] Law Group. It specializes in personal injury law. Now that tends to have a negative connotation, but they do things a little bit differently. Um and which is why I really like this law firm. I wanted you to talk to uh talk to me and the and the listeners, because there's something that really interesting happening in the bar in Arizona, and it's been going on for a few years, but it's starting to come to a head. And what's happening is the Arizona State Bar uh had a resolution to try to increase access to justice, and it was to have these alternative business structures. And basically, what it allowed was corporate interests to come in and own law firms. And the results have been really unique for uh the consumer, and uh, that's putting it nicely. I can't imagine this ever going wrong and uh inviting corporate interests into the practice of law. I can't, I it worked out great for healthcare, you know. That's right. Prices are really down, but nonetheless, this is where we're at. And um, so I wanted to come on, we're gonna talk a little bit about it and what the real practice of personal injury is supposed to be like. So, have you heard about this happening? What have you seen? Uh boots on the ground, Nate.

Nate Preston 2:11

Well, it's really funny that you even bring this up, um, Bob. On a Reddit thread right now, um, I actually reviewed it last night in preparation for this podcast. There, there was a commentary of um just you know, these Reddit people that post about all the billboards in the greater Phoenix area along the I-10. And they counted over a hundred personal injury billboards along the I-10, just in the in the Phoenix area, um, which is absolutely insane. And this alternative business structure that you've mentioned, it's it's absolutely insane. I don't even understand how effective billboard marketing is anymore if you have every personal injury lawyer on a billboard.

Robert Sewell 2:56

Uh, you might almost every billboard. That's like almost every billboard.

Ethics Changes And Client Risk

Nate Preston 3:01

That's right. It's it's almost every billboard, it's almost every bus, it's almost every bus bench. I mean, it the the market has been infiltrated with personal injury lawyers. Um, and and quite frankly, from my perspective, it's it's kind of degraded, not kind of, it's greatly degraded the profession because I think a lot of times they're just made fun of now, um, especially behind their backs on Reddit. Um but the alternative business structure that you're you're talking about, the Supreme Court of Arizona basically um opened up the floodgates. Uh I mean, they they eliminated some ethical rules um that used to be there. Um the the previous ethical rule um prohibited non-lawyers from owning law firms. Um, so only lawyers could own law firms historically. Um and also the sharing of um attorney fees could only be shared amongst attorneys and not non-lawyers. So they eliminated all of those ethical rules. So it's not just having non-lawyers come in and being able, and private equity coming in, being able to own law firms now in in Arizona. It's also you can go write a check to anybody for a case. So if somebody brings me a case and you know, it's almost like to the highest, well, how much are you gonna pay me? Because John Doe, lawyer down the street, is gonna write a check for this much money. How much you gonna pay me? And so a lot of these ethical rules that really were in place to be able to protect clients, to be able to protect the integrity of the profession, have really gone out the window. And in my opinion, they've caused a lot of problems. Um, but yeah, these the the private equity that the idea behind it was hey, we're gonna provide more access to justice, meaning we're gonna try to reduce attorneys' fees, we're gonna try to open up more um areas of of law to to people like homelessness, like let's solve homelessness, let's solve these issues with veterans, let's, you know, that was kind of the idea behind it. But behind and um and the attorney's bar, the plaintiff's bar especially, they really um talk to the Supreme Court and the rules committee about this, and this is gonna open up the floodgates for the wrong reasons. And sure enough, when you sit in these meetings when they approve the ABS structure, when so each law firm that comes into Arizona still has to be approved by the the um the state bar. And you have to have a compliance attorney. There's there's still rules in place, but most of them are being approved. But when you look at the I I think there's over 100 that have been approved since this was was passed a few years back, and about 50% of them are are plaintiff contingency fee personal injury law firms. So how does how is that helpful to access to justice? I don't know. Um, really, it's I told you off air, it's the access to public equity, the access to capital. We're now the Delaware of um law firms in Arizona because they bring the private equity in here, they roll up a law firm, and then they try to distribute that money on a national scale. And a lot of them are now getting in trouble and sued for a lot of different reasons fraud, misrepresentation, stuff.

Why Some Firms Get More

Robert Sewell 6:25

Yeah, and it it honestly, I don't I mean, I don't understand why we went here. And I it it didn't make sense to me at the time, and it doesn't make sense to me now. It it lawyers are not business people, just we're a professional. We don't we have a business to run, but it's a business of a professional service. And you these public servants were acting like they understood market forces and they didn't. And and I understand the the need to increase access to justice. We have a shrinking middle class, right? America has a shrinking middle class, we all know that. That means fewer people are going to be able to afford services that are only gonna be afforded by the rich or um or people who are on contingency. But the reality is um lawyers can't fix that issue, right? Right, that's an overall societal issue, and it's you're gonna put it put it on the back of the bar is an is an odd thing. And now the consumers are being affected. And so we got you know, Frank Johnson law firm out there, he's got a big hammer, or maybe his shtick is we got uh tattoos all over, or maybe the shtick is we're riding motorcycles, and yeah, you know, giant, giant uh birds flying from the sky, raptors, I'm the raptor law firm, right? It it's embarrassing, but it's it's also kind of humorous at the same time. But yeah, but but that's not the way the practice of personal injury works. And I I I I was talking to a um a uh personal injury attorney and years ago, and the and this is what got me uh thinking about this and the the personal injury generally, and uh he says, and he was at a small firm, and it's a firm that's been around for 30 years or more, and he the insurance adjustor comes in and says, uh, hey, listen, Frank, his name's not Frank. Uh XYZ major advertising law firm will take ten thousand dollars for this for this claim every day, but you're asking for 15. No, we're not gonna give you 15. And and uh as I come to find out and I come to learn more, every and by the way, he stuck it out and he got more.

Nate Preston 9:12

Yeah, okay, absolutely.

Robert Sewell 9:15

Um because he's like, fine, we'll litigate. What do I care? But as I come to find out, there are law firms that just get more for their clients, and it has nothing to do with the injury, they just get more. Why?

Nate Preston 9:31

That's a really good question.

Robert Sewell 9:33

Um I have an idea why. I want to see if you agree with me.

Nate Preston 9:38

Well, first of all, um the ABS structure now is kind of playing into this and compounding the problem. I mean, it's always been an issue amongst different law firms and insurance companies, they track lawyers, they track law firms, they they have very detailed, sophisticated metrics of you know how much money they think this claim is worth and how much money they think this lawyer is going to accept versus this lawyer, you know, an XYZ law firm. And it's really the difference between those that litigate and those that don't. There's a lot of law firms that have just pre-litigation volume shops. And with their litigation, they just refer it out. And they know that these lawyers that are in these pre-litigation shops, when they make a demand, you know, for whatever dollar amount, let's say it's $10,000 or something like that, if they make a demand for $10,000, they say in their demand letter, and if you don't accept this, we are going to take you to court. Well, that's just bluster at that point because these insurance companies know that lawyer is not going to take them to court. And they also know their business model is based on, well, we need money still to run our business. We still need to accept settlements, we still need to get money in the door. So you kind of blur the lines ethically, in my opinion, of doing what's best for the client versus what's best for the business. And then you're accepting lower amounts just inherently. So therefore, the values go down.

Robert Sewell 11:17

Yeah, you're 100% right. That's exactly what I got came to find out. And so, I mean, and so the the whole business model has been exacerbated by this the high dollar advertising that is a volume practice. And and look, I got I got friends who are doing this. I get it from a business standpoint. I get what they're doing. I understand why. But I also have friends that are in the no that they don't advertise at all and they're in the personal injury space. And their whole business model is to accept referrals from the high dollar advertising firm. That's their whole business model. That's it. That's all they do.

Nate Preston 11:52

Right, exactly.

Robert Sewell 11:54

And he says, Bob, one of my friends says to me, Hey, Bob, my uh the minute I make my notice of appearance in the case, the offer goes up 20%. That like just by a notice of appearance.

Nate Preston 12:06

Yeah, a lot of times adjusters, insurance adjusters are specifically assigned to certain firms. And then if they refer the case for litigation or whatnot, then the adjuster is reassigned because they understand the difference in reputation, what they're dealing with, they're gonna have to handle the claim differently. You know, there's all sorts of things like that that happen. But yeah, offers go up generally if you're gonna have that reputation.

Robert Sewell 12:34

Tell me some of the big, the craziest things you've seen along this along these these uh what we've been talking about.

Nate Preston 12:44

You mean in terms of um like value um versus well I've I I mean I've dealt with this a lot. Like I had a guy come to me. Um, I'll just give you a few handful of examples. I had a guy come to me and said, Hey Nate, I'm still in a lot of pain. Um, my lawyer wants me to accept this settlement. They're offering me $30,000. And I'm like, okay, well, let's talk about your case. I got into the facts. The guy still needed a surgery, the guy still needed a lot of treatment. And this lawyer was just basically saying, you need to just accept the money that's being offered to you right now. They did a demand prematurely. Um, they didn't even wait until his treatment had been completed. And even when he was discharged, he was still complaining of pain. So he came to our office and we immediately said, You need to get in front of an expert, a doctor, to be able to evaluate this pain that you're still in, because there's enough insurance coverage. There's plenty of insurance coverage, quite frankly, in your case. Um, let's see if we can get you uh more money. Um, so he did. He ended up getting the surgery, um, and then we ended up getting him $750,000, which is a lot different than $30,000. So, you know, there's a lot that goes into it when you're really paying attention to the details as a personal injury lawyer, if you're really doing your job accurately and if you're not focused on the volume. I mean, it's impossible. If you if you're a volume attorney, and my heart goes out to some of these guys, it really does, because they're they're in these firms where that's the business model, but some of these guys have 700 cases on their docket. I mean, how can you possibly pay attention to 700 cases? You can't. Um, so they rely on their paralegals, you know, legal assistance and whatever systems and processes that they have in place to be able to catch some of these things, but that they just don't. And now with the invention of artificial intelligence, that's another thing that's gonna be kind of playing into this down the road. A lot of people are saying, oh, well, artificial intelligence is gonna catch everything, artificial intelligence is going to save the day for all of these firms. And so you combine artificial intelligence with the alternative business structure and private equity, you can imagine what problems are gonna exist with that down the road. And maybe some of them will be changed because AI is doing some wonderful things as well. But you know, that's just one example, and and that happens pretty often. Another, another example, a guy came in and he said that they're telling me I'm getting the max amount of insurance money on this case, and it's $15,000 at the time. That's what the state minimum policy was. And I said, Well, let's take a look at it. And we started going to his insurance coverages, and it's called underinsured motorist coverage, and he also lived with his parents. And under the Arizona law, a lot of times if you are a resident relative, immediate resident relative, and you live in the same household and they have a separate insurance policy, you are considered an insured under that policy, and you can take advantage of those benefits. Well, he was living with his parents and they had a policy for $250,000. So we were able to get the policy from the third party who caused the accident. We were able to look at his underinsured motorist policy, which was like another $25,000. And then we were able to get the $250,000 from his parents' policy. So you you kind of stack those up. Now you're talking about almost a $300,000 claim versus what the attorney was telling at this other law firm of $15,000. So you you really do need to dig into a lot more things than just, hey, you have $5,000 in medical bills, let's submit a demand and let's take the offering, let's be done. You know, you need to you need to analyze treatment, you need to analyze whether this guy's still in pain, whether he needs to see an expert, whether he needs to um but it but what you're doing is what you're telling me about this, and this is why AI doesn't fix the situation, you talk to him.

Robert Sewell 16:57

Yeah, you looked in his eye, or you know, heard the tone of his voice. You at you knew uh you got to know him enough that you're like, what about what about when you found something out about him that got him more money? And same with the other guy, you know, the first guy you're talking about that you got 750. You found something out about him, you were curious, that's why you get bigger numbers, and you know, and I you know, I'm not trying to just fluff your ego. I mean, you there are other good law firms too. I'm not absolutely just have to choose you guys, but but but that's it, but that's a difference in approach, and that's it's a difference between being a mass product and being a consumer-based approach. So but that this is a problem with the industry, uh, lawyering as a whole, as a consumer. I can't evaluate that. I don't know. Like I don't know. I mean I'm certain every law firm does some level of advertising or even but I don't find your law firm uh all over every, you know, it's not like it's on every bench in the valley, okay? I might have seen one or two ads, maybe I don't even know if I have, but okay. I don't know then how to choose you. How do you then as a consumer make a decision on a PI attorney?

How To Choose A PI Lawyer

Nate Preston 18:33

I mean, if I were a consumer knowing what I know now, um, being in the practice. And and it's not to say all billboard law firms and all the people that are on TV and those types of things are are bad law firms. Not all of them are. Some of them are some of them are good. Some of them actually do a pretty decent job. I would say that's the exception to the rule. Um, but some of them do do a pretty good job. Um, having said that, I probably would not choose a billboard or TV lawyer. I just wouldn't, because if people really understood how much money is being spent on a month-to-month basis on marketing, um I mean, it's you're you're talking multi-million dollar marketing budgets on a monthly basis. So how do they pay for that? Right? And it's not because they're litigating cases, it's because they're a volume practice just churning and burning the cases because they need the money in fast to be able to keep their operation going with all the marketing costs, especially. So I would find, I would find more of a boutique firm. Um, kind of, I mean, obviously I'm gonna advocate for us, but kind of like ours. Um, or you know, even some of these solo guys are really good lawyers and they really care about their clients. Um, and they just don't have the marketing budgets or the I guess the know-how to to really go out and advertise. There's a saying in the industry 80% of the cases go don't go to the best lawyers, they go to the best marketers.

Robert Sewell 20:16

Yeah.

Nate Preston 20:17

You know what I mean? And that's a problem. And consumers don't know any better. And that's why I think as a profession, this is a long time ago now, in like the 70s. Um, advertising, if you if you recall in law school, was barred until the Bates v. State Bar of Arizona case. I mean, Arizona's kind of paved the way um for attorney advertising. And I and I'm not saying we shouldn't be able to advertise, I'm not saying that at all, but I think we've gone maybe a little too far.

E-Bikes, Scooters, And City Deadlines

Robert Sewell 20:49

Yeah, I I tend to agree where it's um, you know, we're not the only market like this where it's the it's advertising centric, and uh, you know, there are other markets that have similar problems. I want to switch the subject a little bit. Yeah. What new injuries are you seeing? We have e-bikes, we got driverless cars, we got drones. Um, I know that my wife works at a a hospital, yeah, and uh for kids, and uh it's almost every day you see kid, e-bike, accident.

Nate Preston 21:30

Yeah.

Robert Sewell 21:32

What are we what are you seeing out there that's surprising you?

Nate Preston 21:36

That's that surprises me, you said?

Robert Sewell 21:38

Yeah.

Nate Preston 21:40

Well, the e-bikes are definitely an issue. Um in fact, I I tuned into that podcast. I think you were talking with uh your criminal lawyer there at Davis Miles about e-bikes and some of the the criminal laws um surrounding that. But yeah, the e bikes are really an issue, and it and it's it's really difficult on our side as well. When you have somebody that causes an accident on an e-bike because they don't have insurance and their kids. So a lot of these people who are injured by them are left kind of holding the bag a lot of times because there's no way to pursue any type of money civilly. So the criminal law kind of has to step in potentially to be able to enforce some sort of penalty on that child, but that doesn't really help the injured party. So yeah, e-bikes, um, e-scooters, and you know, we represent a lot of them as well just with the injuries that they're suffering because they they get in accidents that are not their fault. Um, there's some of the surprising stuff is is like an e-scooter riding on a sidewalk, and then the sidewalk is defective.

Robert Sewell 22:53

So yeah. You're right, and then they crash. And there's yeah, those the giant hole in the sidewalk or the sidewalk raises up two inches, that's gonna suck.

Driverless Cars And New Evidence

Nate Preston 23:07

So then we're we, you know, we're suing the city or the jurisdiction, and um, you know, there's different rules with that that a lot of people aren't aware of. If you don't file a claim within 180 days of the accident happening against a municipality or you know, the state of Arizona or a public entity, then you're you're you're not you waive your claim, you waive your rights, you can't do it. So sometimes they show up a little bit later and they're like, oh, there was a pothole and we're past 180 days, so we can't do anything. But even then, the city has to have notice of it. I mean, usually if it's a big pothole, it will, but they have to have notice that there was a defect to be able to cure it before the accident occurred and that it was a dangerous condition. So, but yeah, what about what about driverless cars?

Robert Sewell 23:51

Have you had any of that? I want to know. I mean, I mainly because I have an issue with driverless cars. They I feel like if I'm not paying attention, they're gonna crash into me. I mean, maybe I it's based on absolutely nothing, but damn it, I don't like these driverless cars. Put someone inside. I don't trust the tech. So tell me, have you had a driverless car accident yet?

Nate Preston 24:14

We have not uh handled one. Um on the plaintiff's list serve, I've I've talked to a few lawyers who have. It's it's not that many. The the problem that that driverless cars are having right now is when we get big rainstorms and some floods in the valley, they just don't know what to do. For some reason, they haven't figured out how to navigate in like a flood. So in in in the last uh series of monsoons, I think in July or August of last year, they're they were just kind of all over, stuck in the middle of the road, and they didn't know how to get out of it. So they were kind of creating that type of a hazard. Um, there's a lot of them out here in Scottsdale where my office is, and I'll tell you it's a little eerie sometimes kind of crossing the street on a cross crosswalk. Like, are they gonna actually stay stopped? Like, are they gonna run me over? Um yeah, I I don't know. I they they also recalibrated them recently, and I read an article about it to where they're a little bit more aggressive. So, like with lane changes and stuff, they're they're kind of taking more liberties of cutting in front of people if there's enough space with the cameras. Um, so I think we may start seeing a few more accidents, but at the same time, they probably are safer than just an average driver.

Robert Sewell 25:42

Don't don't bother me with facts. These are these things, these things are uh gonna take us to hell in a handbasket. I know it.

Nate Preston 25:51

I just don't understand how they're profitable. I mean, a Waymo to manufacture it's $250,000.

Robert Sewell 25:57

You know, I don't I did see an article where um at nighttime all the Waymo's would come in to this one particular parking lot and it would um they would get there and then they someone would come and charge them all up. And they can navigate all these city streets, but they couldn't navigate another Waymo, and they would just sit there and honk at each other all night trying to find a parking spot, but they didn't know how to go around each other. And I I just found that hilarious that they can't oh my god, that's hilarious.

Nate Preston 26:33

I don't Robert, to put your mind at ease, I don't know what the adoption rate's gonna be anyway. You know, like how many people want to have a driverless car, you know, for themselves, and how many people want to replace their own car to constantly be chauffeured in a driverless car?

Robert Sewell 26:48

I I don't know, I I wouldn't have has the I do I will want to do want to know down more serious note, has accident avoidance systems changed the personal injury space, especially in discovery and litigation.

Nate Preston 27:04

Defense attorneys will will add if the car has been preserved and those types of things, they'll do a lot more um downloads of the black box of the car because they're gonna want to see you know braking, they're wanting avoidance if it if it was turned on, because sometimes people will even manually turn this stuff off. And defense attorneys will try to make the argument that they were not driving safely and they'll try to put some fault on them for the accident, even if it was not even their fault at all. So, yeah, it it's changed a lot with discovery.

Contact Info And Final Disclaimer

Robert Sewell 27:38

Interesting. Interesting. All right, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. And uh if I wanted to get a hold of you, how would I do that?

Nate Preston 27:48

So uh our our law firm is Warnock McKinley Law. We're based in Scottsdale, we serve all of Arizona, but our URL, our website is youraccellentlawyer.com. So just go to your accidentlawyer.com, call the number there, and uh we'll we'll pick up and we'll help you right away. I'm looking forward to it.

Robert Sewell 28:06

Thanks for listening to the podcast. Is that of illegal is now listened to in a hundred countries and available on virtually all podcast platforms. Leave us a review, send us some show ideas, and do so at producer at evenlegal.com. Don't forget, as smart as we sound and as lovable as we are, we are not your lawyers. And we are not giving you legal advice. But if you need some legal advice, get some. There are some great lawyers out there, and we are always ready to help. See you next time.