Summer’s Here, Surf’s Up…Who Owns the Beach and the Waves?

A beach looks simple until you ask one question that changes everything: where does private property end and public access begin? We sit down with Mark Massara, a “surf lawyer” who has spent decades inside California coastal law, land use fights, and environmental regulation. From the public trust doctrine to the mean high tide line, we break down why the shoreline is treated as a shared space and why attempts to rope off sand can trigger fast enforcement from the California Coastal Commission. 

Then we get into the hard part: climate change, sea level rise, and coastal erosion are moving the coastline in real time. We talk about shoreline armoring and seawalls, why they can protect a home while sacrificing the public beach, and how the Coastal Act tries to balance private expectations with long-term coastal resilience. If you’ve ever wondered why “just build a wall” is not a clean fix, this conversation makes the tradeoffs brutally clear. 

We also bring it back to the water. What happens when surfers collide, a board gets away, or someone ignores lineup priority? We walk through surfing liability under negligence principles and the four core rules of surf etiquette that keep people safe. Finally, Mark shares the conservation shift he’s seen up close, including why removing kelp wrack can hurt shorebirds and how groups like Surfrider Foundation and Save The Waves protect both beach access and coastal ecosystems. If you care about surfing, ocean conservation, or California beach access rights, subscribe, share this with a beach friend, and leave a review.

 Be sure to take a look at these organizations mentioned in the episode. 

Save the Waves- https://www.savethewaves.org/

Surfrider Foundation- https://www.surfrider.org/

Operation Surf- https://operationsurf.org/

Me Water Foundation - https://www.mewaterfoundation.org/

Waves of Impact- https://www.wavesofimpact.com/

Surfers Healing - https://www.surfershealing.org/

Transcript

Welcome And Meet A Surf Lawyer

Bob Sewell 0:04

Is that even legal? It's a question we ask ourselves on a daily basis. We ask it about our neighbors, we ask it about our elected officials, we ask it about our family, and sometimes we ask it to ourselves. The law is complex and it impacts everyone all the time. And that's why we are here. I'm Attorney Bob Sewell, and this is season five of the Worldwide Podcast that explores that one burning question is that even legal? Let's go. Today's guest on the show is Mark Massara. Mark Massara is a surf lawyer, believe it or not. He he handles issues involving the coastline, land use issues, environmental issues. He handles um issues for the California Coastal with involving the California Coastal Commission. He was 10 years as general counsel for the O'Neill Surf Company. And he is generally an expert on all these environmental laws and land use laws in California on the coast. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 1:12

Hey Bob, nice to be able to join you.

Bob Sewell 1:15

So Aloha. Aloha. Yeah, exactly. Aloha. I love the ocean, and and I spent a lot of time in the ocean all over the world. And one of the things that I've noticed is you get into a crowded surfing situation and tempers fly. Things can get a little testy. For example, you get two people on a wave, and one person gets the wave, or the other person thinks that they got the wave, and the other, you stole my wave. And next thing you know, we got a Donny Brook of all uh of epic proportions. Can I own a wave?

Speaker 1:58

Too many surfers and too few waves. I mean, waves are finite resources, they're diamonds in the ocean. Uh, and everybody's uh chasing the same diamond. In fact, uh, there are so many cases they're hard to keep up with. There's one floating around on social internet uh right now from the last uh couple of days in Santa Cruz, uh, where a jiu-jitsu guy uh choked out a rival uh up on the beach after they got out of the water. Saw that.

Bob Sewell 2:30

He's but can I own a wave? Is there has surf etiquette entered into surf lock?

Speaker 2:36

There's some interesting international real estate plays over the years with people acquiring islands in Indonesia and attempting to prevent others from uh from you know surfing, but by and large, um you know this this is um these coastal environments are uh some of the most public and public access-oriented environments on the planet. And if you have a will, uh there's a way. Tell me about that. What do you mean? Well, so a lot of this stuff we talk about, you know, like unwritten and now more recently written etiquette and laws around surfing, can be dated all the way back to the Roman Empire and the Justinian codes. The the public trust doctrine, uh, that's you know, over 2,000 years old, is founded on the idea that the public shall always have access to the shoreline and tide land areas for a whole variety of um of purposes for sustaining themselves, uh hunting for food and recreation. Um and and really the the surfing etiquette that we have today, you know, there's a through line right through, I like to say, um uh that surfing etiquette is derived in part from um uh Judge Benjamin Cardozo in that famous case in 1929 with the railroad, where he said the timorous may stay at home. Uh, because you can't be a surfer unless you like getting beat up by the ocean. That's a fundamental requirement. And if you really enjoy that, you got you, you know, you got to leg up in being a good surfer.

Bob Sewell 4:29

Yeah, I I will say that's funny that you say that. You you're you're 100% right. I mean, it you have to be okay that sometimes you're going to bounce off the bottom, right? The the wave's gonna take you down, it's gonna you're gonna hit the ground a few times. It's you're going to have to be okay with that. And someone asked me one time, uh, hey Bob, you know, that a non-beach person, doesn't it hurt? Yeah, it hurts. Well, why'd you do it? Why'd you go out there then? Because it calls to you, right?

Speaker 5:02

There's something about it. For me personally, it's about being in the wilderness. So, for example, I'm not thrilled uh surfing in areas where there are lifeguards or even a prospect of being saved. I want to be in wilderness, and that's why uh I support shark conservation and all of the rest of it, because if you happen to get eaten when you're part of the food chain, you know, I don't want anyone to think uh that you know I had any regret at all, um, because that's where I want to be. Um, and you know, if the time comes, you know, where you suffer injury or uh or worse, uh that's that's really the way it goes and and the price that you might pay for a lifetime of rewarding experiences uh and health derived from the ocean.

Why The Shore Belongs To Everyone

Bob Sewell 5:54

Um I want to talk to you about you you mentioned earlier there's been many many countries, and I've seen this in several countries, where and and California itself is is no exception from what I understand, where they dedicate for public access the the coastline, right? And California's done that, is that correct?

Speaker 6:20

So the mean high tide line, which is basically the wet sand, is public in California. Uh and so property owners often own to the mean high tide line, which gives them private ownership over the sandy beach area. But don't try roping it off, or you're gonna end up on social media and you'll have a a notice of violation letter from the California Coastal Commission immediately threatening you with um $13,000 a day fines and penalties for every day that you're precluding public access.

Bob Sewell 6:56

Yes, I've seen these people online. And so the mean high tide, so in other words, the average high tide is where the public gets to be, right? In general, and and then beyond that is you could it could it could be not always, right? Because that they could it could be a public access.

Speaker 7:21

Beyond that, or what you might call the dry sand area, is where the state will generally support any claim of implied dedication. Long history of use by first Native Americans and more recently the public has resulted in public dedication of easement rights over that dry sand. I I tell uh clients and and um you know property owners all the time don't bother uh hiring security guards or trying to rope off the coast. You are just going to uh create legal headaches for yourself and um and possibly very uh significant fines and penalties. You will also bring an unprecedented level of scrutiny to your property, defeating the very purpose of trying to create this privacy because everyone's gonna want to come and visit out of curiosity.

Mean High Tide And Dry Sand

Bob Sewell 8:22

Yeah, you know, but let me let me push back against the rule. And you I know you're a surfer, you're not gonna like what I'm gonna say right now, but I want to push back against that rule. We have a situation in the world today where the coastline is changing. It's changing rapidly. Climate change is real. We can't, we're not pretend gonna pretend about that. And but but generally speaking, even without uh even without um climate change, coastlines change. And so you have a situation where uh private property owners who's paid real money, good money, some of the most expensive real estate in the in the world, it's going away. Is that fair? Is this rule a good rule when their land is going away?

Speaker 9:11

So you're right. Uh tides are ambulatory, they're moving, you know, all over the time. Uh seas are rising. We're we have an unusually warm water in the Pacific Ocean right now. We're expecting the most significant El Nino weather conditions, heavy rain, big swells this next winter that we've had in perhaps 150 years. And so make no mistake, I represent hundreds of oceanfront property owners. And they we are very concerned about these issues. And that, you know, gives rise to a whole lot of the law and coastal act regulation and processing of armoring uh permits, seawalls, um, up and down the coast. You know, 400 miles of the California coast is already uh armored, a lot of it related to historic railroad operations along the coast. What do you mean armored? I don't know if I know that term. So under the Coastal Act, um section 30235, I said I wouldn't say this stuff. Um any kind of shoreline hardening, whether it's wood or concrete or you know, anything that holds back the ocean is is called a seawall. And when you when you construct a seawall, you're interfering with mother nature. And you know, the further landward it is, the less interference there'll be. But make no mistakes, uh, as the ocean and seas rise, uh if the water hits that armoring, it causes scour and exacerbates erosion. And so oftentimes when you draw a line in the sand and say, okay, on this side of the seawall is private property, and on this side of the seawall is public property, what you're actually doing is sacrificing the public property because someday the public property will be drowned and there won't it won't exist. Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of what you see on the East Coast right now in um the outer banks in North Carolina, these houses falling over into the surf presents uh what we have with those um those barrier islands that uh retreat and reestablish themselves periodically. And here in California, what we had after World War II was very calm conditions for literally decades. And particularly in Southern California, that encouraged people to move right up to the edge to be able to enjoy the coast. And now, you know, we're we're having uh El Nino weather patterns and bigger, uh more frequent wave events, and that's exacerbating erosion, and it creates a lot of tension for regulating and creating this balance of living along the coast. And one thing that I often have to explain to property owners who are new to the coastal environment is that in California, we have a very unique land use regulatory history related to our California Coastal Act that creates a um a mandatory interface and sensitivity to public rights and access that you don't have in the mountains or in Arizona or other areas where private property is sacrosinct and it's constitutionally protected. In California along the coast, it's a different story. The courts in particular are very, very um aggressive about protecting the Coastal Act and public access rights to shoreline areas. So you and it makes sense.

Bob Sewell 13:06

I mean, if you think about share that property, yeah, and you think you think about how important the coastline is to California's uh economy.

Speaker 13:16

I mean, it's imperative that it be available, it be well protected, that when people go there, they have a good experience that employs uh millions of people and provides beach access to literally hundreds of millions of people annually.

Rising Seas And The Seawall Problem

Bob Sewell 13:31

I want to shift away from what we're talking about now and talk a little bit more, kind of serious, but kind of not. You're out there surfing, okay? Yeah, let's talk about surfing. And I'm I'm on the wave. And I'm not gonna pretend like I am any good at surfing, okay? But you're on the wave. And sometimes you're you're you're in a sometimes you're in a situation where you're not anticipating how fast this wave is gonna take you down, or you down down the uh the the the wave, and then someone might be there that you weren't anticipating, and you might injure someone, or they might injure you. How much is my fault? How much liability do I got out there?

Speaker 14:18

So a lot of these concepts are uh based in in negligence and tort. You know, what what would a reasonable person expect and do? There's also very strong coastal act law and policies protecting coastal recreation. So surfing in particular is a protected activity, and and so yeah, and so we have good law on that. In fact, we're going further. California, there's an organization called Save the Waves, and they do surfing reserves around the world in order to protect surfing environments from dams and harbors and even seawalls that can do adverse impacts on the surfing resource. There's a lot of economic analysis on the value of surfing environments. And now uh there's uh legislation pending in Sacramento that would enshrine into state law the opportunity to designate surfing reserves. Um we already have a surfing reserve at Malibu, uh based on the historic and cultural significance. And there's famous case law in California that says that you know surfing is is much more than a simple sport, it's a way of life. I mean, the court of appeals has found that in the Dora case. Um, and and they're right. I mean, people have chosen to live their entire lives and where they live and where they work and how they uh how they structure every aspect of their lives around surfing and being at the beach. Um, and so it there is a unique level of protection, except that you're not immune, right? And that's yeah, that's what gives rise to these written and unwritten surfing equity etiquette uh rules and guidance, and also, of course, the resulting criminal and civil law implications. Because there's a there's a a lot of stuff in that regard as well.

Bob Sewell 16:29

You know, it strikes me, it strikes me that that you know that what you're gonna end up with is a lot of common sense type law, right? Like if if I'm out there as if I am surfing and I am intentionally doing something that will intentionally injure someone, or I just don't even care. And I that's one thing. And it's another thing if I am out surfing or swimming with surfers, you you're going to if I I'm swimming with a bunch of surfers, uh, you pretty much are going to get hurt.

Speaker 17:06

Well, that's one of the rules of etiquette right there. And there's basically just four, and you're right, it's common sense. Um, and and and a lot of famous surfing areas have placards right there, you know, with uh there's often different language, but generally it's four concepts. The surfer with priority on any given wave is the one that's closest to the curl, to the breaking area of the wave. So you don't take off in front of somebody. That's really bad form and is likely to get you screamed at or yelled at. Um, and then you know, the second concept is avoidance. When you're paddling out or swimming in an area where people are surfing, go around, don't just go right through all these people uh because that's begging for a problem. Um, the a third thing is always hang on to your equipment, don't let your stuff go flying because a lot of these larger surfboards and stand-up paddle boards are big enough to you know severely injure or kill somebody. Um and then the the final you know ammonition is to always help people. If you see people struggling, particular, particularly new or younger surfers, um you know, it's it's always good practice to help people. Um, and and and some famous old-time surfers used to say, you know, you never know that guy you help may have a cute sister. And it's good practice. The other thing we love to say is that you know, the best the best surfer in the lineup is the one having the most fun. And I I'm often uh you know encouraging surfers to quit yelling at one another and just have a good time. Uh it when surfing is right and things are going well, it's a meditation. And and it's so ironic that it's become so crowded and everybody's busy fighting and competing. When the original inspiration and still really the underlying motivation for why most guys are in the water and women too, lots and lots of women now, yeah, is the meditation, the the being in the ocean and getting exercise and feeling good and relaxed. Uh that's that's uh a base motivation for all uh surfers everywhere.

Bob Sewell 19:42

Yeah, there's something about the sound of the wave and the speed of the wave and the feeling of the current, and it is something about that that is hypnotic to me. But you're you're 100% right.

Speaker 19:57

Now, there's lots of caveats and nuance in those rules, right? And so if you're a beginner, don't go to the best surf spot in the city or the region that you're at, because you're gonna run into all of the aspiring professionals and young surfers who are quite literally trying to make a career out of this. Professional surfing is particularly handicapped in as much as it's one of the few sports where the professional has to go out and like literally uh paddle with and amongst and compete for waves with uh uh beginners. And and it's really difficult. It makes professional surfing, uh it makes me appreciate what these guys go through to get their uh exercise and reps in, having to compete with the whole rest of the world while they just try to practice. Uh, on the other hand, most uh of the areas of the California coast, there are beaches and surfing environments that are well known for being those areas where you know children and grandpas and moms and kids and beginners can all have fun together. Um there are other places and you don't have to go far. You can just go on YouTube and type in, you know, Malibu, and you'll see 10 people on a wave, and it is hectic out there. And you and if you're going, if you're surfing in an environment like that, be prepared to have to deal with a crowd.

Collisions, Negligence, And Surf Etiquette

Bob Sewell 21:35

You know, one of the things that I've noticed when I go to the beach is that sometimes there are there, of course, beaches that are entirely dedicated to surfing. And you go, you walk up San Ofre, right? You go out down to San Ofre, and you a lot of those beaches down there are going to be dedicated to surfing. And swimmers, beware, right? And uh Um but other beaches tend to close off the surfing. Is that legal? During the certain times of the day, I should say.

Speaker 22:08

Yeah, there is a history in some places, Newport Beach in the West. They they I don't know that anybody's ever litigated this point, but lifeguards have broad flexibility to do uh what they need to do in the name of safety. You know, I don't think most judges are gonna jump in front of uh uh lifeguard's determination that people need to be separated as long as there's a certain equality involved. I know that sometimes they separate body surfing and and board surfers. Um, but again, even at San Onofre, if you're at lowers, you better be a very experienced or professional caliber surfer, but you can go to old man's and have a great time with people playing ukulele's and and barbecuing on the beach. You know, I always feel badly for a beginner who gets mixed up with a lot of really experienced surfers because they're they're not gonna have the most fun.

Bob Sewell 23:10

Let me ask you, let me change pivot a little bit here and uh ask you about something that's dear to me, and that's where the law needs to go. I've I re- one of the things I enjoy doing, I just I've surfed before, but I what I really like is just being out there, just swimming in the ocean. I love snorkeling. Um, I just love being out there in the waves, feeling them crash, whatever. Okay. But as I've gone over the world, I have seen the loss, what's quite obvious, the loss of a healthy coastline. California. If anyone who's been along the coast in California from the 80s knows that those the tide pools there aren't what they used to be. And if you and the uh the loss, loss of coral reef, coral disease is significant. And you know, of course, we trash throughout the ocean. It's amazing how challenging it is out there. Where does the law need to go? Like you could wave a magic wand and say, I'm gonna protect the coast. Where do we what would you want to wave?

Speaker 24:32

Well, this is tricky, um, because uh in my mind, uh virtually all of this um coastal resource degradation is just related to the fact that um we've loved it to death.

Bob Sewell 24:46

Yeah.

Speaker 24:47

Uh when California had 20 million people or 10 million people, this was not a problem. Uh it's still not a problem in the far northern reaches of the state, where, for example, in Mendocino, you have less than 20 people per mile of coast, and in Los Angeles, you have about 100,000 people per mile of coast. Now that we're getting close to 40 million people, crowded, degraded, polluted coastal environments that have damaged reefs and everything else, uh, tide pools, um, endangered species, you know, the snowy plovers and marine mammals and um all of the large mammals that used to visit the coast, um, mountain lions, bears, bobcats, you know, um coyotes, uh are becoming rare. Um, we're building a hundred million dollar overpass in Calabasas in Los Angeles County to facilitate mountain lions getting back and forth between the Santa Monica Mountains and the inland areas because uh for breeding, we we need diversity. Um we're all uh and based south of you know um Gaveyota at Point Conception in Santa Barbara County, there is no place for a bear to get to the beach without crossing an interstate freeway. So we're suffering, and and all of our coastal streams, you know, this the um the steelhead uh trout are all they're endangered and pond turtles and uh all we have so many threats. And so whereas for so many years I was what I would call a coastal access maximalist, I've now sort of late in my and I was president of Coast Walk and worked at Sierra Club for 18 years, and really we and and at the Coastal Commission, we all focused on maximizing beach access. What we didn't do as well is protect coastal resources, natural resources. Um, and so you know, later now in my career, I've in all of the big law, you know, we can go through some of these cases, is all about maximizing beach access and protecting beach access against the threats of private property. Now, later in my career, I'm really I've really become focused on protecting and restoring natural resources, um, whether it's public or private property. I don't care about that so much. I'm involved in some really unique um natural resource uh conservation efforts, um, generally around Point Conception uh in Santa Barbara County, that I think are going to pay dividends as we try to reestablish nature and figure out how we're gonna balance 40 million people and healthy beaches. One easy example is, you know, throughout the last 100 years in Southern California, all of the local governments thought it was a great idea to grade the beach, to get rid of all of that dead and dying kelp because it brought flies, and tourists don't want to have their towels and sunbathers next to these big piles of kelp with all these flies. Well, now we realize that there are no shorebirds because we've graded all the kelp away. And so one thing I try to encourage people Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute.

Bob Sewell 28:28

Kelp is like incredibly important for for the fishies, right? Right, nursery we graded it away.

Speaker 28:36

We graded it away. What would happen in you know Orange County and parts of Los Angeles County and San Diego County is that they would go out in the morning and grade up all of the what they were calling trash, and there and there was trash, there is you know trash on the beach, but while they're doing that, they're also taking all that dead and dying kelp.

Bob Sewell 29:00

Okay.

Speaker 29:00

Yes, yes. So kelp forests are really important, they are also suffering terribly with the sea rise and warming oceans. And uh there, I'm involved in many studies where we're taking pictures of kelp beds over time in different areas. In Northern California, we're losing the abalone uh because of the shrinking kelp forests in in central California. It can be warming oceans uh are having an adverse impact on kelp. Big storm events tear out all the kelp and throw it on the beach. In Southern California, they'd say, Oh, we got to get this out of here so we can put our towels down. Well, the flies that were attracted to that dead and dying kelp were the source of the food for the shorebirds. And so all of this um trickles right up the food chain. Yeah, and then you don't have the shorebirds to, you know, and then they and the flies are are are taking away the uh, you know, they what uh you know they're the lot the name is decomposing the the creating marine reserves uh where we're we're regulating uh recreation commercial fishing, and in those areas that are designated as like little recovery nurseries, uh you know, those are becoming really important sources for new fish.

Coastal Act Cases That Opened Beaches

Bob Sewell 30:29

You you handled a case um on this in something that uh is called the Surfrider Foundation, and you handled a case relatively recently, I understand. Um you know what I'm talking about? Tell me about that.

Speaker 30:44

Well, sure, I've done two on behalf of Surfrider Foundation, a nonprofit organization uh based in Orange County, California, where I actually was uh general counsel way back in 1990. Um and we we did well, we did a whole number of cases. We managed to prevail in 1991 on what at the time was the world's largest water pollution case involving two uh pulp mills discharging toxic effluent up in northern California in Humboldt County into um into a surfing environment up there. And we prevailed in that case. And and then we brought a case against the Coastal Commission in 1991 that was one of the first big cases to address uh a particular section of the Coastal Act that is the definition of development. And and what the court found in that case was that even charging a fee to go to the beach could have an adverse impact on beach access and was therefore uh uh within the definition of development under the California Coastal Act and could be regulated. And this is a long way of saying that the courts in these cases have found that virtually anything is development under the Coastal Act. Some lawyers um even argue that you know having a dinner special at a restaurant on the beach can be require a permit because it could it could cause a change in the use or intensity of use of the coastal zone. Now that that's taken it a little a little bit far, but that theory of actions or activities that change the use or intensity of use of the coastal zone requiring a permit turns out to be a very powerful case, uh very powerful legal theory. And so we won this case against beach fees in 1991. And then about 2015, I represented Surfrider Foundation again in a case against a famous um Silicon Valley um hedge fund um titan Vinod Kosla, uh, who owned a little beach uh below Half Moon Bay called Martin's Beach. And Vinod believed that um his ownership of the beach allowed him to close the access that had been there for a hundred years. And um, and I explained to him that these powerful concepts related to development uh under the Coastal Act, it doesn't mean that you're increasing intensity, it can also mean that you're reducing intensity. In the Spencer case, these famous um thugs uh in Palos Verdes had uh a very famous surf spot, uh virtually all to themselves for decades, and they really would physically and verbally harass anybody that attempted to go surf at this place. It was a long walk down a cliff face, and they had constructed uh a sort of uh a rock uh structure down on the beach where they would hold cord and threaten anybody that came to the beach. Uh, and this went on for decades. And um, so some colleagues uh sounds like Rico. You know, essentially they did uh make those claims, uh, but the courts ultimately found that the coastal act was applicable in this case as well, because even an informal rock structure on the beach, if used to intimidate uh public recreation, uh, could be a violation of the Coastal Act. And so um the uh the case was interesting in as much as the um the city uh council and police department had protected these kids for for decades because it was a small community and they all knew one another. And none of Paus Verdes is famous for um being rather unwelcoming to visitors. Uh so um the it was the city and the uh police department that were ultimately held accountable for the as well as some of the individuals that were involved in this stuff. Uh, but that case has just been wrapping up here in the last few years.

Lagoon Hacks, Wildlife, And How To Help

Bob Sewell 35:19

Have you seen these uh viral videos? And what's happening is it's particularly down in Southern California, I think that's happening down. Um, oh, I can't remember the name of the beach at this moment, but it'll the stream comes down and it pools up, and someone gets the idea. Oh, I'm going to, it's my job to to uh redirect this stream. And the result is a quite a phenomenal little surf event as it destroy destroys the uh the sand right below it as the stream is redirected.

Speaker 35:57

Lagoon in um in Laguna Beach. Yeah. Um and this is a situation where the um estuary backs up and fills up, and then the kids all you have to do is create a trickle, and over several hours the whole thing will drain out. Uh, I don't know of any um Department of Fish and Wildlife involvement in that particular estuary. I don't know that there are any fish or endangered species that are threatened uh there by this conduct, but that very issue has been uh considered by the Coastal Commission and regulated by Fish and Wildlife up in Northern California, a very famous um estuary uh in Crescent City in Del Norte County, all the way up by Oregon, where um the tradition of um of breaching the estuary and draining it was being done for uh private property owners that uh on undeveloped property. And the Coastal Commission and Fish and Wildlife Service um did years-long studies on the impacts to the fish in the estuary and how that could breach naturally and at what point fish and wildlife could step in. Uh, and it's it's regulated to this day. Okay, final question.

Bob Sewell 37:29

Um I'm a let's say I'm a passionate coastal ocean surfer and I want to get involved. What's the quickest, the easiest way to say, hey, use me, help, let me help?

Speaker 37:44

Oh, there's there's so many um opportunities here. Uh first I always say, you know, work within your community, but there are a couple of nationwide surfing and ocean conservation organizations. Uh I mentioned Save the Waves earlier, um, doing surfing reserves around the world, Surfrider Foundation chapters in every coastal state and around the world. Uh, encourage people to join up and become active in those organizations. And then uh I'll also mention that there are surf schools in virtually every uh coastal area in the country uh that are a great way to get sort of an introductory um opportunity uh to go surfing and to uh get a little education from somebody that has been in that area for a long time. So you kind of meet the locals, right? Um and and there are also really amazing surfing organizations that are dedicated to helping disabled and disadvantaged communities, veterans. Um, and I and I'll just mention a couple of those. Um there's one that I think very highly of called Operation Surf, and they help uh veterans um with all kinds of trauma uh uh around the country. Operation Surf is really awesome. Uh Me Water Foundation uh works with um disadvantaged kids uh throughout California, uh really amazing organization. Um there's one in Texas called Waves of Impact, and they're they're uh taking folks uh surfing on the um Texas Gulf um area. And then on the East Coast, there's um Surfers Healing doing um uh disabled surfing uh opportunities.

Bob Sewell 39:43

I love it. Mark, thanks for coming on the show. Hey, no problem. Happy to chat. Thanks for listening to the podcast. Is that of illegal is now listened to in a hundred countries and available on virtually all podcast platforms. Leave us a review, send us some show ideas, and do so at producer at evenlegal.com. Don't forget, as smart as we sound and as lovable as we are, we are not your lawyers. And we are not giving you legal advice. But if you need some legal advice, get stuck. There's some great lawyers out there, and we are always ready to help. See you next time.