Where There's a Will, There's a Way

You can love your family and still leave them a legal mess. We sit down with attorney Eileen Spangrud to talk about the most common reason people avoid estate planning: it feels like inviting death into your calendar. Then we flip the frame. A will is not a superstition, it is a practical way to protect your spouse, your kids, and your future self with one clear set of instructions.

We walk through how a straightforward will process works, including the kind of questionnaire that helps you list assets, name beneficiaries, and choose an executor. From rare collections to charitable gifts, we explain what you can control and what happens when you do nothing and let intestate succession laws step in. The surprises are real, especially for second marriages and blended families, where “the state’s plan” can force outcomes you never would have chosen.

Then we get into the traps that cause the biggest probate fights: outdated documents, DIY and holographic wills, and beneficiary designations that do not match your will. We also zoom out to the rest of a complete estate plan: financial power of attorney, healthcare power of attorney, a living will, and an advance directive so your loved ones are not left guessing about money or medical choices at the worst possible time.

If you found this helpful, subscribe, share it with someone who keeps saying “I’ll do it later,” and leave a review so more people can find practical estate planning guidance.

Transcript

Why The Law Touches Everyone

Bob Sewell 0:04

Is that even legal? It's a question we ask ourselves on a daily basis. We ask it about our neighbors, we ask it about our elected officials, we ask it about our family, and sometimes we ask it to ourselves. The law is complex and it impacts everyone all the time. And that's why we are here. I'm Attorney Bob Sewell, and this is season five of the Worldwide Podcast that explores that one burning question: is that even legal? Let's go. Today's guest on the show is Eileen Spangrud. Eileen is a personal friend of mine, a colleague. She serves as the lead attorney at Davis Miles and section, and the section of our firm that provides the contract services for Legal Shield. And that's important because Legal Shield is an access to justice type type organization that tried to give access to justice for people who wouldn't otherwise be able to access these types of services. But she's also does it for the state bar where she serves on the Committee for Access to Justice. The reason why I wanted to have you on today is one of the things Legal Shield does is it gives a free will. And this is the if rather I should say this, it gives a free will with its subscription service. This is the the make a will month uh in the United States. So welcome to the show. Thanks, Bob. I'm glad to be here.

Why We Avoid Making A Will

Bob Sewell 1:43

I gotta be honest with you. It's I don't want to make a will. I don't want to think about my death. I don't want to, right? I don't I don't want to have to uh take one more thought, one more bit of effort to think about my impending doom. Do I got it wrong?

Eileen Spangrud 2:06

Bob, I hear that a lot. And the way that I usually try to frame that, because you are certainly not alone, is that it can give you serious peace of mind because you want to just kind of determine where you want your assets to go, who you want your assets to go to. And then you've got the peace of mind to just keep living your best life, knowing that this is down on paper, that your family members are not going to have to fight about what it is that you would have wanted a little bit later down the line. And I don't want to say get it and forget it, but it is a way to kind of give you that peace of mind in the present for what is ultimately going to be the end point for all of us.

How LegalShield Starts The Process

Bob Sewell 3:02

Tell me about what what uh legal shield would do for you know for you if you didn't have a will.

Eileen Spangrud 3:12

Now that's a great question. So, as I mentioned, a lot of our members are people that might not have historically had that access to the legal system. And so what we try to do is to make it very simple, very straightforward, very accessible. And so the first thing that you would do is you would call in, you would open up a file or an intake, as we call them, and then the attorney is going to send you what's called a will questionnaire. And that is a really good starting point to start getting some things down in writing. You know, what are my assets? Who do I want to be my beneficiaries? Who do I want to execute these wishes and desires on my part? And so I think that that will questionnaire is a really good first step as far as just getting some things down on paper, starting the conversation.

What You Can Put In A Will

Bob Sewell 4:19

What types of things can I discuss in my will that might be important? Do you know?

Eileen Spangrud 4:26

I would say pretty much anything. You know, I've got a rare coin collection that I want to go to this particular child because they have got the same interests. Um, I have got uh a rather large amount that I want to leave to my church. And so certain things, if you do not have a written will, the state is going to jump in and make those decisions for you. And so you want to have that peace of mind knowing, no, no, no, I want the rare coin collection to go to this particular child. I don't want the state to say, no, you got to divide it equally three ways because you've got the three kiddos. So I just I think that it's a way to control where your hard-earned assets are gonna end up. And you also want to remember that let's say you've got a friend that you want to leave something to, um, charity that you want to leave something to. Without a will, that's not gonna happen.

What Happens Without A Will

Bob Sewell 5:37

What are we gonna do? How are we gonna celebrate the Make a Will Month? What are we gonna do?

Eileen Spangrud 5:44

I think that I want to encourage everybody to call so we can get this process going for you.

Bob Sewell 5:51

Yeah, I mean, I gotta be honest, I'm really I'm really passionate about people doing their estate planning and and getting it done, addressing it early. It's so important for people to, you know, we're all gonna die. We all it doesn't, it doesn't hasten your death if you're going to if you do your will. I mean, just get over yourself and get it done because the result is if if you don't, the state of Arizona and whatever state you live in has a plan for you, and it's probably not the plan you wanted. I mean, government precisely I lean, government always does things great. I mean, they're planning to do it.

Eileen Spangrud 6:37

So that should take a load off of our minds. So, do you find that you have a hard time convincing people to do estate planning early and sometimes often, depending on changing assets, changing circumstances? Or do you find that it's something that people are open to for the most part?

Bob Sewell 7:02

No, they're not open to it. Yeah, a lot of people are really surprised. The loved ones are really surprised about, you know, the wives of what happens at death. And so you'll have like a wife been married, you know, it's a second marriage, but they've been married for 40 years, and they're living in a house, and maybe they have lower middle class means like the rest of us, right? I mean, it's you know, they have it's the rare person that has a large estate, right? Most people have middle class estates at best. And so I'm a widow and I'm I'm uh living in a house and might be paid for, hopefully. And then I got my little pension and I got some money in the bank for when I get sick. And then as it turned come to find out, I got to give half my assets to the kids. That means selling the house. Right. And it's a shocker for them. And you know, and a lot of times, you know, look, we we live complicated lives, right? And uh, you know, I think it's more common than people would like to admit, but the the uh stepmother Cinderella relationship is um is Forrizzle, by the way. It's Forizzle. Uh I I just dated myself with some Snoop Dogg. It's with some Snoop Dogg talk there. But it's um, you know, it really people have these complicated relationships with the with their their uh stepkids. And the stepkids come in and say, Yeah, I want to inherit from my dad. And I don't blame them, right?

Eileen Spangrud 8:55

I mean, they and a lot of times the kids are gonna come in and well, this is what dad would have wanted, and everybody's gonna have a different perspective, and so making good estate plans, making a solid will, takes that guesswork out, and hopefully nobody's gonna be duking it out after the loved one is gone, because there has been that planning, and then kind of the other fun fact is that if there is a way to gently remind people that if there is no estate planning and there is no relative that is found, all of your hard-earned assets estate to the state, so that the state of Arizona is all of a sudden enriched because you didn't put pen to paper saying, No, no, no, this is where I want X, Y, and Z to go. So it's very rare push that people need to, yeah. I don't want that to happen.

Bob Sewell 10:01

It's very rare, but it's a possibility, you know. Yeah, it does happen. I had in the state where it was almost the case where it is where it is the word, I think. How do I say the it sheets to the state? Um the where there was word enough relative. So yeah, yeah. It sounds like a a word that in when you're in junior high, you might laugh at.

Eileen Spangrud 10:31

Yeah, I think it's a fun word even in law school. I like saying it. Is that one of your scary horror stories, cautionary tales?

The Caregiver Who Got Nothing

Bob Sewell 10:41

It turned out kind of sort of okay. So this guy, this guy, um he gets sick, he has no real family. His only person he considered family was a stepsister, but it wasn't even like it was the daughter of a a of a man his mother married when he was an adult, and that was the closest person to him. He wasn't married, you know. Life happened with this guy, and the closest person in his life was this kind man who married his mother when they were adults, and he had children, and they had a close, relatively close relationship. So he's getting old, and he he um gets a terminal illness, and he says, uh, hey uh Jane, her name's not Jane. Um, can you take care of me? I'm getting sick. I need someone to make sure my bills get paid. And um she says, Yeah, yeah, I'll I'll do that. And she she didn't have to do a lot of the physical care giving. I think she did a fair bit, but she managed the doctors as he got older and couldn't do it for himself. And and then he dies and he leaves behind a you know seven to eight hundred thousand dollar estate. And he doesn't give her a thing. Why? Because he didn't do an estate plan and she wasn't a relative, and so all his money went to 30 people he didn't even knew existed. So what happens is, and this is really it's just kind of fascinating. Um, so what happens is there are these uh estate, there are these air air uh search companies, and so what and for for estates like this, so if I own an air search company, what I do is I have buddies in the probate offices in whatever state I want to do my work in, and I slip them money, it's it's terrible, but this is how it works. I slip them money sounds like a lucrative business whenever an estate like this might pop up, and so what happens is um the clerk comes in and is like, Hey uh Frank, uh I got another one. Here it is. Send me that 50 bucks, you know, whatever. Okay. No, I this is what I understand. I've never totally confirmed this is what I understand.

Eileen Spangrud 13:54

So I it sounds very lucrative, but it also sounds like somebody who's got a head for business. Hey, there's a need here. There's let me fill that need.

Bob Sewell 14:06

And they go out, these companies go out and do a bunch of genealogical research and find the possible heirs. In this case, the guy had 30 heirs he never even knew existed. No one didn't know anything, and a third of that money, or 25% to a third of that money, depending on the agreement they have, goes to the company that's doing all the work.

Eileen Spangrud 14:35

And meanwhile, the caretaker has no legal recourse, none. She gets nothing. So do you run into situations often in your practice where maybe somebody is trying to do a do-it-yourself will, or somebody has got a really old will, a will that's been outdated, and there have been marriages and divorces since then. Maybe the beneficiary has passed on. Kind of how do you sort that out? That sounds like it's a big mess. Oh, it's a total hands of yeah, yeah.

Divorce And Beneficiary Designation Traps

Bob Sewell 15:17

Yeah, yeah, total mess. Yeah, there's P dudes are when they get divorced, they never like not never, but if they don't remarry, they leave all their beneficiary designations in place, they never redo their will. Uh it's it's amazing to me. It's like you hated that person, you didn't want any money to go, but she's still on your 401k. Well, maybe oh, go ahead. Well, yeah, I mean the state of Arizona has a plan for this, so it's called revocation on divorce. So if I have let's say Bob Sewell uh gets um married to, you know, I I you know, I I have a second marriage and I get married to uh um you know Julie, and Julie has two kids that I raise from childhood and I love these kids, and then Julie finds another man and divorces me. Finds another man and divorces me. Um let's say that happens, um my daughter my my her kids, if he if they're in my will, are taken out. Unless I update that will automatically automatically that's revocation on divorce. Furthermore, so every single retirement plan under federal law, you know, your 401ks, your thrift savings plans, your 403Bs, these things, except for IRAs. IRAs, that's that's not the case, but the ones that are governed by what's called Eurissa, those ones stick. So if Bob Sewell has a 4041K, and I divorce my wife and I hate her. She was the worst thing ever. And and I leave her name as beneficiary, and then I kick the bucket, boom, she gets that, she gets it all. Federal.

Eileen Spangrud 17:42

And I think that that's one thing, yeah, that a lot of people maybe uh don't realize about wills, is that it doesn't override your payable on deaths, your pre-existing beneficiaries. And so you might think that, hey, this will is going to take care of that designation that I no longer want. And the simple fact is that it isn't, and so that's the thing that we educate people on quite frequently, so that there aren't these horror stores.

The Million Dollar Journal Case

Bob Sewell 18:16

I will say, okay, I got to tell you one crazy story though. Oh, I love crazy stories, and it's insane. So you're 100% right. Your will doesn't override beneficiary designations. So you the beneficiary, the first thing you do is you look to the beneficiary designation. However, there's some case law out there that says, well, maybe at times under the right circumstance, it does. Okay. And but do not do this, people. People do not do this. It is a one-way ticket. Someone has bought a one-way ticket to be my client if you think that you're gonna do this with will. Okay, and I on the other hand, go ahead and do it because if you do, I will send a kid to college, okay, with with the money you spend on. Okay, it's that difficult to unravel. It is, but in this case, it was the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. So a woman has a um a woman is pregnant, and then she she has a boyfriend, and they as the pregnancy is coming towards an end, she and her boyfriend are are struggling, and they're no longer officially an item. And she takes out an insurance policy for more than one million dollars. I can't remember. I I I it's been too many years, one to two or three million, I can't remember. Okay. And at the same time, and she names her boyfriend the beneficiary, and at the same time, she writes in her journal and scrawls out multiple letters or wills or whatever you want to call it, and she declares, even though her pregnancy is fine, I think I'm going to die in childbirth. I have taken out this insurance policy for you to raise these children, this child for me. Okay. Well, I'm looking at this and saying, what is this? Right? I mean, it's a declaration. It's nuts, right? She's predicting her death when there's no medical reason to predict it. She's writing down, scrawling what she wants to happen. Is this a testamentary instrument? We end up settling the case, but we had to argue. And the and the other thing is, you know, I represented the personal representative. Well, my personal representative doesn't want to be wrong, right? He could have a guess of what he thinks it is, but we got to ask the court. So we, hey, court, is this a testamentary change to the beneficiary designation? And that it's possible, uh, like I said, under the right facts. And the court said, uh, and the court said, well, let's consider it. And then we we ended up settling, but it's um it created, she could have just done a trust. And she could have named the beneficiary too simple. How long did this case go on? Oh my gosh. This army back and forth. Well, technically it's still on, uh like four years later. Because as part of the settlement, we had to hire a private fiduciary to manage the money. We took a portion of that money, a large chunk, and we put it in a trust. And we took the estate and we put that in a trust, in the same trust. And then we hired this private fiduciary and said, manage it till the kid is X, Y, Z or years old. So now this kid is he's going to have um money upon graduation to provide for his needs and to go to school. And if he needs anything, he's gonna have the funds and someone else is gonna manage it. And when he's like 35, then he could blow it all on his rock star lifestyle. But until then, he's gonna live a normal life.

Eileen Spangrud 23:05

Um what a circuitous route to get there, though. Yeah, and yet another tale about yeah, oh, unbelievable.

Will Fights Undue Influence Handwritten Wills

Bob Sewell 23:20

And and what's what's interesting is everyone in in Arizona, I can I could sit everyone down, and that most states are like this. I think this is not true in some states, like Texas, this is not true, but most states are like this. And I can make a will and I could say, To my wife, I give my entire estate. And then on my death or deathbed, before I die, I gather my family around and they video record me and say, uh, do you still want this will, Dad? And I say, Yeah, I don't know if I want this one. This is what I want to happen to my mistress. I give the house in Boca Raton. To my to my um to my girlfriend, I give the house in Aspen. And to my wife, I give everything else. Right? I could do this, and uh they're all gathered around and they're all happy, you know, because none of them like me, right? They're all happy that they that the other exists to take the pressure off. They're waiting for me to die. And the humor. Right. And um, so as I'm, you know, and everyone can say, yeah, this sounds great, Bob. We hear you. Everyone is agree in agreement. Oh, yeah, yeah, this we'll work this out for you, Bob. Don't you worry about a thing, it's gonna be worked out, and then I, you know, I'm dead. And then uh the wife goes to the judge and says, Yeah, yeah, I heard what he said. And judge, it don't matter, none. Follow the will.

Eileen Spangrud 25:13

And she's well, and that kind of brings up another question that I have. How often are people contesting even a will that's properly made out? Is that a rare thing? Is that we see it at the beginning when people are making the will. I don't see it at the end when we're in probate court.

Bob Sewell 25:39

A person who generally speaking, a person who hires a competent attorney doesn't get an estate contested because that attorney does what it takes to make sure that it's a good estate plan. And if it is contested, it's more rare. We see the contest when we find attorneys who are not really paying attention, or we see people who do their own wills and they're not really paying attention.

Eileen Spangrud 26:16

I can stand, yeah, there's so much that can fall by the wayside.

Bob Sewell 26:22

And the the weird thing about it is, you know, we have you you you hear people talk about the silver tide, the aging of America, and it's real. And you know, uh, I'm gonna be a gener I'm gonna be a little bit of a generationalist here. I'm gonna, but the boomers, they they raised some crappy kids, okay. I mean they did. And they um they raised these kids, and uh these kids are taking advantage of them at an alarming rate. Um guiding their hands on that will, and it's brutal. And um, you know, so yeah, we're seeing increased number of uh people who are having uh estate plans be challenged. Um, and a lot of that isn't just be isn't maybe not as a percentage.

Eileen Spangrud 27:32

Undue influence, yes, but just seeing it a lot more often. Fascinating.

Bob Sewell 27:39

Okay, yeah. But there are but there are more wills right now, more people dying.

Eileen Spangrud 27:44

So now, do you see a good number of holographic wills that are coming across your desk? Just kind of building on what we were talking about, or people at end of life. I don't know. I'm gonna switch things up real quick.

Bob Sewell 27:59

Yeah, yeah. Holographic wills can be a be a problem. You know, the holographic will is so some someone who writes out by hand the will, and those can end up being a problem because what happens is you're the person who creates that will is not really, they really don't know what they're doing.

Eileen Spangrud 28:26

And so we think a lot of errors and execution, you know, you know, just a lot of things that, like you would said, a competent estate planning attorney, no, that's gonna be a problem. You know, you've got a who you also want to be beneficiary. This is potentially problematic. But then if someone is doing a holographic will, they don't necessarily know what to look out for, what the caution, caution, red flags. Have you seen a good number of those?

Bob Sewell 29:05

Yeah, I'm seeing some, yeah. I had a situation come across my desk where the holographic will was incredibly vague. And then it wasn't signed or dated. It just said, house, Frank, car, oh no, cash, Julie, stuff like this. And oh dear. The problem is according to the statute of discovery. What do you do with that? Yeah. Well, it's it's a it's the the person who makes it.

Eileen Spangrud 29:48

So what happened?

Bob Sewell 29:51

Well, the person said, I don't know if I want to be the test case to see if I can make this a goodwill. And um yeah, and it's it's and the the thing that's tough is it made um his entire estate go to a stepsister that hated him. You know, someone twenty years or older that he thought was dead. Like all he thought he thought the stepsister was dead. Crazy, right?

Eileen Spangrud 30:35

Oh my goodness. No. Well, I mean, I feel that this is yet another one of those tales that should make people think, you know what, maybe I do want to take the hour to sit down with an attorney to at least get this preliminary stuff done. We can fine-tune it at a later date, not everything needs to be done in one sitting, but just so I don't have somebody that I hate or who hates me that's getting, you know, my precious 1975 Corvette. You know, I want to really be more intentional in directing that particular asset or all of my particular assets, you know.

Bob Sewell 31:21

One thing I recommend is that everyone who makes a will add Bob Sewell's name to it. Come on, Eileen. That's a good, good and Eileen, or just Bob. That was a joke, obviously. That would be amazing, though, right? I love it. That would be awesome.

Power Of Attorney And Medical Decisions

Bob Sewell 31:49

Okay. Before we're talking about wills, but whenever we do a will, we should also consider other estate planning. Power of attorney. This one's for you. This one's for the person who's making the will for their lifetime. Who's gonna manage your money, your assets, your business, your bank accounts when you are not able to do it yourself? You're unconscious, you're demented, you're whatever it is. Who's gonna do it for you? Get that document.

Eileen Spangrud 32:26

If you don't have that, also, yeah, the medical POA, not covered by the will, you know. Yep. So that end-of-life planning, uh, funeral instructions. Sometimes maybe the timing is not gonna work with the probating of a will because that can take so long. So I think you bring up an excellent point. You know, the will doesn't cover everything.

Bob Sewell 32:53

Yeah, you see, and and you said it that the the healthcare power of attorney, the will. If you don't do this, your state has a plan for you. It's called a guardian conservatives, it's a court proceeding involving you, a very special court proceeding. And it's expensive.

Eileen Spangrud 33:12

Yeah.

Bob Sewell 33:13

And the the last one is that I think you really need is an advanced directive and a living will. Advanced directive says what you want to happen at the um at the end of your life. Do you want aggressive treatment to save your life? Do you want the to, you know, do you want that heroic measures? The do you want to be, you know, put on a ventilator, things like this. Um, I saw a very sad case. And he um, here he is, this guy lived a great life and um had wonderful children. And at the end of his life, he didn't he didn't do any estate planning, no advanced directive. At the end of his life, it became his children's job. Do we feed him by a tube or do we let him pass? Don't do that.

Eileen Spangrud 34:15

Don't and were all the kids in agreement. No, right, right. No, I think that just kind of goes back to the peace of mind that you're having if you're doing estate planning, because maybe two of the kiddos think, oh, this is what mom would have wanted, and another one is like, no, absolutely not. She would want the heroic measures, and so now there is just the the pain of watching a loved one at end of life, and then the infighting just because the intention wasn't set down, and that just could have that could have saved some of that pain.

Bob Sewell 35:00

Yeah, and oddly, there's this uh I read this in a book, it's called Being Mortals about end of life issues, written by a doctor, and he cited um a study, or rather, some sort of um um can uh a county, a small county, and the the uh interesting thing was this they had one hospital, and they decided this hospital that they were always whenever someone came in, they were going to talk to them about their advanced directive, what it meant, and then provide them an advanced directive and then have them sign it and put it at the hospital. It made sense because there wasn't a lot of health care choices where they're at. And so the result was a huge percentage of their population of people coming in had advanced directives. I love it, I love it. And uh the what what happened was uh they started noticing was people who had the choice chose not to do the the more aggressive treatment. They had thought about it in advance. And they're like, no, I I think I don't know if I really want that. And oddly enough, when I've decided to do less agre, you know, maybe less aggressive treatment when I have a terminal condition, on average you will live longer. You may not live, right? You're definitely you're definitely going to die, but on average, you end up living longer according to this particular study that he was citing. So so you're definitely condemned to death.

Eileen Spangrud 36:57

That's probably gonna pick up this book.

Bob Sewell 37:00

You you end up living longer. So it you really are it's about peace of mind, it's about lifestyle, it's about personal values. Estate planning is more than just who gets my stuff, it's everything. Dignity.

Eileen Spangrud 37:18

I agree. I agree. And then just again, taking that burden off of your loved one's shoulders of trying to second guess what you would have wanted or what the right thing is to do. So agreed.

Final Takeaways And How To Reach Us

Bob Sewell 37:33

Eileen, thanks for doing the show with me today.

Eileen Spangrud 37:36

Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Bob Sewell 37:40

Thanks for listening to the podcast. Is that of illegal is now listened to in a hundred countries and available on virtually all podcast platforms. Leave us a review, send us some show ideas, and do so at producer at evenlegal.com. Don't forget, as smart as we sound and as lovable as we are, we are not your lawyers. And we are not giving you legal advice. But if you need some legal advice, get stuck. There's some great lawyers out there, and we are always ready to help. See you next time.