The Rizzcast Podcast
Exploring the intricate life of being an entrepreneur and creative.
For over 20 years, Justin Rizzo has been a full-time worship leader, songwriter, and filmmaker. He is passionate about authentic worship and creativity. Justin also dedicates himself to raising up and coaching worship leaders and creatives of all types, nurturing their growth and success. In addition, he owns Firelight Creative, a production company that has produced multiple award-winning musicals and films, and hosts gatherings for creatives both online and in person. Justin travels extensively to lead worship and speak at events around the world.
The Rizzcast Podcast
052 IHOPKC: The Brutal & Beautiful Side of 24/7 Worship
Matt and Justin on IHOPKC, the Cost of 24/7 Prayer, and Finding Purpose in Pain
Matt Gilman and Justin Rizzo reflect on their years at IHOPKC and the beauty and cost of 24/7 prayer.
They talk about the emotional and spiritual toll of prolonged ministry, unpacking how bitterness can quietly grow in silence and how isolation during pain often leads to destructive conclusions.
Also part of the discussion is the power of community, counseling, and “detangling” your story with trusted guides who help separate truth from lies.
Pain has purpose.
Whether you're walking through suffering yourself or helping someone who is, this conversation offers hope, honesty, and practical guidance for moving from victim to overcomer, without denying the reality of your wounds.
▶️ ABOUT
Justin Rizzo is a worship leader, songwriter, and filmmaker. He is passionate about authentic worship and creativity, focused on bringing glory to Jesus. Justin also dedicates himself to raising up and coaching worship leaders and creatives of all types, nurturing their growth and success. In addition, he owns Firelight Creative, a production company that has produced multiple award-winning musicals and films, and hosts gatherings for creatives both online and in person. Justin travels extensively to lead worship and speak at events worldwide.
▶️ LISTEN
SPOTIFY
YOUTUBE
APPLE MUSIC
SOAKING WORSHIP
▶️ CONNECT
BOOKING
COACHING
WEBSITE
INSTAGRAM
FACEBOOOK
PRODUCTION COMPANY
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the RizCast podcast. My name is Justin Rizzo. Thanks so much for listening to this or watching it on YouTube, wherever you're at. We appreciate you tuning in, excited to have my good friend, matt Gilman back for another episode today and, you know, love to have him on the show a couple weeks ago but today I wanted to talk with him about a topic that everyone is familiar with, no matter who you are listening to this, whether you're in ministry or in business. I'm trying to stop making that differentiation between ministry and business, because I've found and I know so many business people that probably have greater ministries than a lot of people who are in quote-unquote ministry, so I got to find better terminology there. But whoever you are listening to this, you can relate to the topic that Matt and I are going to talk about today.
Speaker 1:It is called pain, and Matt and I have been good friends for over 20 years and we have had just countless hours of discussions over this topic, over different things that have happened in our lives for the past 20 years, and something that I really have found is that pain in my life and, matt, I know you can say the same thing pain in your life is not just pain for the sake of pain, but the Lord uses pain. Maybe he doesn't cause all pain, but He'll use pain to shape us and to mold us into who he is. And there's so many different avenues we can go down, so many things we can talk about in your life, in my life, in the world I mean our world is filled with pain. I mean you go on X or on Instagram and look at some news outlets or whatever. You're just like there's pain everywhere. Pain sells in one sense of the word. Right, the worst we can make this situation or scenario, whether here in the States or overseas, or in this family drama or whatever it's like. The worse we can make it, the more we'll get clicks and likes or whatever. And you know and also I'll say this, like, just as human beings, we are infatuated with story, because God, I believe, is the great storyteller and he didn't just create us to be robots and so we all want to be the hero of our own story. Right, and if you look at the timeline of your life and I spent a lot of time listening to and reading books from Donald Miller and he talks a lot about this idea of story and how you are living in a story and you have 60, 70, 80 years of your story and then your kids or your friends or your family or whatever will come behind you and it just kind of keeps going and keeps going, keep going. So, in this time in history that you're living in, what are you doing to make the best of your story?
Speaker 1:And I want to just open with a story that Donald Miller tells of a friend of his whose daughter was just struggling and living with her boyfriend and there was abuse happening, all kinds of things. And you know his mom and dad, they raised her right and it was like so broken that she's over here, you know, doing these things and she's being abused, whatever. And this guy reached out to Donald, a friend of his, and said Donald, like, what do I do? You know my daughter's just over here doing crazy stuff and we're just trying to talk sense into her. And Donald said this statement that is so compelling. And if you know Donald Miller, if you don't know Donald Miller, he's a phenomenal author, phenomenal speaker you should listen to his books. But he said this statement. He said well, it sounds like your daughter needs a better story. And the dad's like what? And Donald began just kind of coaching him as a parent that they did a great job of rules, values. This is how we act. This is not how we act. This is what we do. We are this family, we do this, we do this, we do this, and there was no story given to this girl. And so she finds a guy who's interested in her. Even though it's perverse and there's abuse happening, at least it's something interesting than just don't do this, do this, don't do this, don't do this. The dad was compelled. I'm going to fast forward the story here for the sake of time. He goes home, drains her savings account, buys I think it was in Africa, like a plot of land or something, gets all these things together. I believe it was to build an orphanage and like we're going to give my daughter an amazing story to be a part of, and just you know whatever. The wife wasn't thrilled when she found out he trained the savings account and then they went to their daughter a couple months later and said hey, this is what mom and dad are doing. We want you to come, you know, in a couple months for the dedication of this orphanage or whatever it is, this humanitarian project that they were going to be doing. It was like no, don't want any part of it, whatever. But the more they like, she saw what they were doing. She saw the construction happening. She saw the hearts and the lives that were going to be touched and changed. She eventually left. This guy left the bad story because her parents gave her a different narrative and a different story to be a part of right.
Speaker 1:So all of us in our life were raised in a certain home with certain visions, certain values, certain restrictions or freedoms or whatever it is, and that has shaped who you are today. So you might be sitting there complaining, hating on your life today. You might be mildly content, or you might be like, dude, I'm loving my life. Wherever you're at, you are a part of a story that has been shaped and formed since the time that you were in your mother's womb and it's still going today. And so when we talk about this topic of pain, I don't want to just come at it from like this, like, yeah, man, pain sucks, and it's like oh, man, like life is so hard, oh man, like you know, but at least we have Jesus it. It's like no, no, no, no. Like we have to have perspective in our life to move forward, and I think you know a lot of the things that are necessary for us to do that.
Speaker 1:The biggest thing I'd say and I just had a conversation with someone recently is not keeping everything in between your earlobes.
Speaker 1:I was talking to a friend and it was just so clear, it was like all in here, and I asked him, like leading questions of like, do you have like a pastor, do you have like a counselor, Do you have like a professional therapist, like anyone, and there was like no one and it was just like I just got to like keep things going. You know, I got to da, da, da, da, da, and I could just see and just the brokenness was like emanating, right. So one of the biggest things I think is perspective, which I said. Second biggest thing is how do you get perspective? You have to talk to other people and so, matt, I know you've had a lot in your life and we'll we'll dive into a couple of different topics here Again, there's so many areas we can go, but just kind of 30,000 of a view, pain has shaped who Matt Gilman is today. What kind of light just comes to you when you hear that statement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one God is near to the brokenhearted, and I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have experienced the presence of God on a way deeper level in my life in seasons of pain than when things are going well. It almost almost not it doesn't actually, but almost makes me wish for those seasons back again, because in the intensity of the emotion, of everything you know like for, for example, um, if we're just going to be vulnerable I went through a nasty divorce in 2016, 2017. And it was some. It was one of those things where I was just like this was not supposed to be my story. I grew up in a Lutheran denomination. My dad's a Lutheran pastor I think I said that last time I was on but, like, if, for any reason, a pastor in that denomination gets a divorce, they are excommunicated from the denomination, and so I'm so thankful that my grandparents, my parents they have a legacy of healthy marriage, but that also gave me this element of shame. Generations before me had healthy marriages and then, all of a sudden, I'm going through something that not only is a disgrace to my family's legacy, but from how I grew up, I should be excommunicated from ministry Like I. I just remember walking through that.
Speaker 2:That two, three year season of my life was the most, you know I, the most horrendous and painful thing that I think I've ever gone through. You know, the most horrendous and painful thing that I think I've ever gone through, and I was mad at God. I was mad at my ex-wife, I was mad at, you know, my job and in the midst of it all, my job is to lead worship and I'm forced to go and lead people to a God that I'm angry at and and just like. But here's the thing and maybe I'm just saying this because I'm a worship leader and worship is such a center, a center point of my life, worshiping God in the midst of my pain, even though it was the last thing I wanted to do, it was the number one thing in my life that kept me aligned with truth. I had every excuse in the book to leave my faith, to leave the ministry and to go do whatever the heck I wanted to do. I could have and I wanted to and I probably should. You know like I felt, like I had the right to, because of what I went through and what all of the turmoil and the torment that I was going through every single day. I had a right, you know in my mind, to go do this. But I would go lead worship, you know, in Orlando, at the House of Prayer in Orlando. I was on staff at the House of Prayer in Orlando. I'd go lead worship which was run by my ex-wife's parents. So I'm going to work for my in-laws.
Speaker 2:It was just a bizarre, which I still love them, great relationship there. So, carlos and Emily, if you're watching this, love you guys. But anyway, it was just a crazy. The last thing I wanted to do was walk into a prayer room and leave worship for two hours, but it kept my heart aligned with the truth of who God is and who he says. I am in the midst of my pain and every single time I would walk in angry, I would leave with peace in my heart going. I didn't want to go there, but you met me there anyway. I'm mad at you and you met with me anyway. And, um, I I always think of.
Speaker 2:This phrase is thrown a lot around, thrown around a lot in Christian circles.
Speaker 2:But the Bill Johnson phrase like this we only have this side of eternity to worship God through pain, because once we're there, every tear is wiped away.
Speaker 2:There's no more death, sorrow, crying or pain. We don't have the opportunity to worship him when our emotions tell us we don't want to. We don't have the opportunity to worship in eternity the way we would in this human experience that we have in this 80, 90, 100 years that we have on earth, and so that always has stuck with me. But absolutely I know the kindness of God, the mercy of God, the grace of God in a deeper way now, and I'm not yeah, I would say my knowledge of those things. Before those seasons of pain, I still had the knowledge of it, but it was very superficial knowledge. When you go, when you're cut so deep and God has to go into the deepest places of your heart to mend you, there's an intimacy there with God that's created whether you like it or not, because he's the only one who can heal your wounds, he's the only one who has access to go to those deep places and fix you, and so, anyways, that's.
Speaker 1:I love that. So 10 years, 24-7 worship on staff, full-time at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. 10 years on staff right that you spent there, yep, okay. So 10 years, 24-7 worship and prayer. What did it cost you and what did it give you?
Speaker 2:I'll start with what it gave me, because I think what it cost me is something I think you and I are probably still working out right now. Yeah, for sure, what it gave me was resilience in the place of prayer. I mean, I think I shared in the last time I was on with you, first three months of our internship. I literally sat in that prayer room, bored out of my mind, confronted with my barrenness in the place of prayer. I had nothing to talk to God about. I had hardly any biblical knowledge. I was biblically illiterate. I loved music, loved worship, but I didn't know really much about the Bible. I didn't know hardly anything about prayer. I didn't know how to talk to God. Being forced to sit 24 to 30 hours a week in a prayer room forced me to get something to say to God, forced me to go. I can't just sit here bored for the rest of my life. I need something to talk to him about. And so it taught me resilience in the place of prayer. It also taught me just the significance of.
Speaker 2:I love the concept of prayer and worship together. They call it the Harpinbow model at the House of Prayer, but whatever you want to call it, no-transcript. This momentary light affliction is working in me, eternal light of glory, like 2 Corinthians 4, is that what it was? Yeah, yeah, like. Those sets are ingrained in my heart because we sang it for a year. I think we sang 2 Corinthians 4 for a year and you know. Perfect example of what to talk about right now.
Speaker 2:Like momentary light affliction, it's like it's a real thing and it's part of the human experience. Jesus said he didn't say in the world, you might have trouble. He didn't say in the world, try to escape the trouble. He said in the world, you might have trouble. He didn't say in the world, try to escape the trouble. He said in the world, you will have trouble.
Speaker 2:Trouble is part of the human experience and it's how we navigate it. With him hand in hand, it kind of determines the outcome. So you have every you know tendency and temptation to become bitter in the midst of our pain. Like I felt all of that, and I'm thankful that. In the midst of our pain, like I felt all of that and I'm thankful that in the midst of it I had part of it. It was my job and I was forced to, but part of me, I just knew that it was right to go to God, even when I was mad at him, didn't want to sing to him, didn't want to talk to him, but he was the one, the only place that I knew how to go to and so, yeah, the only place that I knew how to go to.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, yeah. So take me to October 2023. I'm overseas on a worship night strip and had heard the news about what had happened with Mike Bickle and IHOP and, you know, I didn't believe the news. When I first heard again, I was overseas I was like no, like something strange here. You know, this, this can't be right.
Speaker 1:And then, um, you know, I I made a phone call to some people that I knew to be trustworthy people and, um, I kind of like asked a couple of questions in my roundabout way to like, okay, if, if they're really being truthful, I will know if they're lying, they're going to answer a certain way. You know, like I had it in my brain. I was like, and then, every single question, I had about three questions, my wife and I on the phone with this, these people, and every question they answered a hundred percent. I was like, shoot, this is true. And um, you know, being one of my, my best friends, you know we're, we're on the phone, and so I'm grieving, I'm in shock.
Speaker 1:I'm not even grieving at that point, let's be real. I'm in shock in london, shocked in london. There's a movie there and um, you know, not believe what I'm hearing. I, I call you to, you know, say, hey, bro, like brace yourself, like our world is in a big part of our world, right, 10 years for you, 15 years for me, on staff at this church, parachurch organization, whatever you want to call it, house of prayer. And a bit of my backstory. I had left six years before all this stuff happened. So my wife and I left staff, um, you know, six, six and a half years ago now, and um, but you know still very much, just, it was our place for 15 years. Right, we're on staff there.
Speaker 2:What, what kind of goes through your brain when we're on this call together um, like same thing, shock yeah, I'm, I'm flashing back right now, it's just, even as you're telling it, like I'm flashing back to that moment. I know exactly where I was and it was just. It was so unbelievable because we could say his name, right, or like yeah, yeah, sure, mike fickle, the Mike Bickle that you were telling me about in that conversation and the Mike Bickle that I knew personally were two completely different people, and so I just remember going there's no way, there's just, there's just no way. In fact, I, you know, with all of you know, we've had a lot of exposure in the last several years of high profile ministry people who you know have been exposed with moral failures and and all of that. And I would always say to people uh, thank god, mike pickle, thank god, because I know he's the one guy that I know, would never, would never do, xyz, thank god for righteous man, might you know like?
Speaker 2:and so it was, you know, and maybe maybe we had all not, maybe we definitely all probably placed someone too high a pedestal. Um, um, but it was just the contradiction of truth, of the actual truth, mixed with my reality, uh. And so I remember just being in denial for a long time until you and I probably talked to several of the same people and asked them probably several of the same questions. Uh, and I'm just going. There are too many people that I love and trust. Uh, and I'm just going. There are too many people that I love and trust. There are too many who are all saying the same thing. And there's no way that you can get this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, all from different parts of the country, all to tell me the same story and to cohesively lie to me about this, like there's just no way. And so you know, I think it took a while for truth to settle in, but I think the long-term, the long-term effects of this isn't so much man, mike Bickle's a bad guy the long-term effects of this for 10 years, 18 to 28 years old, I was indoctrinated with this man's teaching, and so I honestly went to a really dark place for probably a few months just going.
Speaker 2:What do I believe in? What did I learn there that I can actually take to the bank as truth, and what do I need to throw into the furnace Because I don't know anymore. I'm confused. My whole doctrine, the doctrine of my life, is rooted in this man's teachings and stories, and so I think in a lot of ways it forced me to panic and just have this spiritual identity crisis. Like, do I really believe that Jesus is coming back in five to 50 years? Do I really believe, you know? Do I really all of you know there's the core teachings of the house of prayer? Um, and then which? That one eschatology stuff is real trippy If you start planning your whole life for Jesus to come back in the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And what if he's not?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so destructive.
Speaker 2:Just what if he's not? And you have, what if I'm going to live on the earth for another 50,? I just turned 40. What if I'm going to live on the earth for another 50, 60, just turned 40. What if I'm going to live on the earth for another 50, 60 years and Jesus doesn't come back in my lifetime? Where, where was the disconnect there? And so, uh, that one's a real trippy one to kind of um, um, detangle your word is detangle, I love uh.
Speaker 2:And so just going back through old teachings and going, forcing myself to go, is this actually in the Bible? And this has been as painful as that process was. It was really a gift to me to have to force myself to take those notes and take out my Bible again and go. If I see it in the word, it's real, if I see it in my Bible with my own eyes, not just because Mike Bickle told me to or not just because Mike Bickle guilted me into something or manipulated a group of people into believing something. If it's in my Bible, it is truth. Believing something. If it's in my Bible, it is truth.
Speaker 2:And I there is a lot that I learned at IHOP from Mike. That is real truth and you know that's a lot of people are, are kind of all or nothing types of people, um, and might tend to say any teaching that you ever learned from the house of prayer needs to get thrown into the furnace. I'm not on that page. I from the house of prayer needs to get thrown into the furnace. I'm not on that page. I, you know, and I think I said last time too, but just, I know that God led me there, and you know this has been going on for 40 plus years.
Speaker 2:Why would God lead me to a place run by this man who had secret sin for four decades or more? And it was never about Mike. It was never about, you know. It was never about following Mike Bickle. This was about cultivating a life in the word, cultivating a life in worship and prayer, and this is one I tried to process all of this at home. You know, I'm thankful. I always say God led me there when he did in 2004,.
Speaker 2:and God also led me out when he did 10 years later and I'm thankful that you've lived in Kansas City, even through all of the drama coming out. I can't imagine being there on site as all of this has unfolded. I'm thankful for the decade of separation, but I tried to process this with my pastor here in Orlando and what he told me really helped me. I get that God is merciful. I get that God would allow somebody as many times as possible to come to a place of repentance. But I said 40 years is a real long time to have willful, unrepentant sin, predatory behavior. I said that's a long time and he said um, he immediately was like the lord just spoke to him in the moment he said I am immediately reminded of the parable of the, the wheat and the tares. It was the farmer plants the grain. The enemy comes and sows the wheat and the tares. It was the farmer plants the grain. The enemy comes and sows the weeds. And the servants go to the farmer. They say the weeds are growing with the grain. Should we pluck up the weeds so that the grain can grow freely? And the farmer said don't pluck up the weeds, because the weeds, if you pluck up the weeds, they're gonna pull up the grain as well, but it's gonna be premature. And he said once the grain is at full maturity, pluck all of them together and then separate them.
Speaker 2:And he said to me he goes look at all of the good that has come out that if God would have plucked up the weed too soon none of that like I mean you and I are prime examples I wouldn't have any sort of a ministry or platform, not that it's all about platform, but I wouldn't have the opportunity that I have now. If I worked for that, you probably wouldn't have had a launching pad that you had. I think of Corey Russell and Alan hood and all these, like all of these guys who have been launched out from that furnace of the prayer room, um, because they sat for decades just ministering to the Lord through his word and had had the weed been plucked prematurely, we wouldn't have had that opportunity. And so part of me it's like man, that's so good. And the other part of me it's like but God, surely there was another way. Like surely?
Speaker 2:there's another way that I could have been launched into ministry if it meant that other girls and women weren't victimized, and so I still struggle with that a little bit, and I think I will probably always have that question in my mind going how do I reconcile? I can't reconcile. Well, this was for my ministry opportunity. That this all happened behind the scenes and like you know.
Speaker 2:So there's. I'm thankful for the gift of that. Like, yes, the Lord had a much bigger picture, a broader scope in his mind as he was looking. The gift of that. Like, yes, the Lord had a much bigger picture, a broader scope in his mind as he was looking at all of this. And but at the end of the day, I'm just like man. I pray for Mike's soul. I pray for, like I want Mike to love Jesus sincerely, not just the version of Jesus that he's created in his mind and you know, and it's also just kind of forced me to look at the way that I minister to.
Speaker 2:I don't want to base any theology off of a personal prophetic experience. My theology is based on the word of God and the word of God alone. Anything else that I experience with God, I can maybe share those things, but not on the same plane as scripture. Like, my personal prophetic experiences may be real to me, but maybe they're not so real to somebody else and they have every right to question that. But what will stand the test of time is if I teach from this book.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, how old was your pastor? Is your pastor, how old is he?
Speaker 2:He's probably close. If he's listening, he's probably close to 50, upper 40.
Speaker 1:Okay, so he has some wisdom in his years, in his life.
Speaker 2:Been through it too. You know, he's got his own stories and his own history with the Lord, and you know there's certainly pain involved in that too. But yeah, I wouldn't go ask a 20-year-old. No, not that 20-year-old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:I need someone with real life experience to help me all this so yeah, yeah, that's you said the phrase the biggest thing that I I have realized from, from all of this many things, but one of the biggest things is, you know, detangling of a uh, a season or a person or a you know scenario, whatever it is that and I pretty much come to this conclusion that, again, you may listen to this podcast and have like even no idea what we're talking about, and that's okay, don't go research it, you're better off. But you know in your life, as I said at the top of the show, like pain is something we can all mutually feel and understand, no matter where in the world you're listening to from. And the one thing that's really spawned in my wife and my heart from this thing is you know what we just need to like be committed to detangling situations and scenarios and beliefs really on the regular, like not just waiting for some like big thing to happen. And you know, my wife and I, like we've we've done a lot of like, a lot of counseling, a lot of therapy, really since like 2010. And I'm very, very grateful for that. Now that you know, 15, 16 years later, we see, you know for that.
Speaker 1:Now that you know 15, 16 years later. We see, you know, things that were set in sessions back in like 2011, 12, 13, like we're we're reflecting on, like, oh my goodness, like this is like a nugget and this is this and this is this, and it's really helped to keep us, you know, our hearts pure in the midst of all this because and again, you might have no idea or you have not experienced something like that happened, what we're talking about, but have you detangled the way your child doesn't talk to you, the way your child turned out, the way that your life turned out? You know you thought you'd be here, you thought me doing this. Whatever, if we take things to the bank without being rooted in a biblical world to you and without, like I said earlier, like talking to someone else about it and just making all the decisions between our earlobes, and we take that to the bank like this is this and bam, it's like we have to be careful of letting that cement dry because, at the end of the day, you know, our heart is the most important thing in all of this. And obviously you know, like we've all experienced death Like that, that that is one of the most intense things you can have have happened.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like someone is gone. It's not just that they hurt you, they're gone Right, and you won't see them until you know, hopefully the the next stage, right, um, but even like processing that, like, if you don't process that, um, you know, embrace the stages of grief and not just say I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm going to stuff it. Or or just like live in a perpetual place of anger or you know, whatever the different stages of grief are Like. We have to embrace the stages of grief, to come out of the stages of grief. And it can take you know, I'm not an expert on this but it can take months, years, sometimes several years depending on what the situation is.
Speaker 1:And that's been kind of our commitment my wife and I's commitment to seek to be victim-centric first and people who went through all these horrific things at Ground Zero we know several of these people personally at Ground Zero. We know several of these people personally and then to steward our hearts, to say we're going to detangle this to the best of our ability, we're going to get friends and therapists and counselors involved to do that and then build a better future, that this won't happen again, that there's boundaries in place, not only in our own ministry, but we look at with different glasses now at different things, things that are happening, and it's not like you need something like this to happen that Matt and I went through. Just look at Christian news. You don't have to look far to see there's so much just horrific things happening, and so if you don't have a way to keep your perspective kept on Jesus and a way to detangle, I just don't know how you're going to make it through life. Really, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:You have to, and one of the biggest pieces of advice that I was getting when all of the IHOP scandal broke two years ago was there will be a narrative out that says if you talk about it, you're slandering and that was a lot of what was being said from the platform don't talk about it, don't put anything on social media because you don't want to engage in gossip and slander. It's sinful, no, no, no. This was this. This was a scandal that affected not just the people who were on staff at IHOP. This affected a prayer movement reaching to the ends of the earth. We have every right and it's not even just a right, it's a necessity that we process with one another and heal together.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure who it was in your world, but I remember when you told me that I think I was still in Europe on this trip I'm not sure if it was the same pastor or a different pastor said to you Matt, if you keep it all inside, you'll come to wrong conclusions, he said. When you process it, you'll rightfully divide between soul and spirit. This was good. We're taking it to the bank. This was horrible, we're crucifying that and getting it out. I believe that was you who told me that from your pastor. Right?
Speaker 2:Um, that wasn't my past. That was, uh, I was in Brazil at the time, uh, and he's the one who told me I was uh, just kind of. It was I think you had called broke, and he was the one he's like you have to talk about this. Yes, that's something. This isn't something that you just wait and see how it unfolds. You were you and I, specifically, were big pieces of a puzzle there, especially in those early days, and it massively affects us and we have we have not just to write again. It's a necessity that we process this out loud with people, people who were underneath us, like I.
Speaker 2:I, I did my best to try to call as many, or try to communicate at least with as many people who I ever knew were on the teams going. I'm so sorry if I ever perpetuated falsehood, if I ever perpetuated a narrative that was not godly, or if I ever, you know, like, in the name of being loyal to our leader, agreed with certain extra biblical things that aren't actually true. And so, like I, we were leaders. We have to be accountable for what we did and for what we bought into. And you said, maybe this could take weeks or months.
Speaker 2:We're two years later, bro, and I'm still feeling the effects of what do I actually believe on the second coming of Jesus.
Speaker 2:It's such a massive, all-encompassing thing because my whole world was this little bubble in Kansas City for 10 years, and so, yeah, I think it's so important that we process out loud because I think, when we come to our own preconceived notions, at the end of it, this is one thing that my wife and I have started to say preconceived notions at the end of, uh, this is one thing that my wife and I have started to say you know, this can be, this can be applied in marriage, it can be applied in ministry, but bitterness grows in silence.
Speaker 2:Bitterness in silence, and it's. It's something that is, if you don't talk out loud with people, you are forced to believe what your brain or your, your, your own logic would tell you about that particular situation. If you have no one, no one else's outside perspective, your force to just believe what your heart tells you and bible says your heart is desperately wicked and deceitful. Above all things, bitterness growth silence. If you're not talking about it and you have this, if you have anger in your heart, your anger will quickly turn into bitterness so, absolutely, and and just to reiterate that we'll bring this to a close.
Speaker 1:But you know that how pain shapes us as human beings. You know thinking about this season, this 15 years of our life, and what it gave, what it took. You know all the things you can and you know it's right, as we already stated to, to talk that through. I highly recommend people I mean, I've told so many of my friends and I have friends in every gamut of the spectrum from piece of history that we're all still living in. But no matter where you are, getting outside counsel is so, so important, and getting other people to bounce ideas off of it can even determine your faith remaining in Christ or not. Um, because, like you said, bitterness, man, it's if it takes root inside of you. Um, there's, there's no telling the destruction. I mean there's all, all kinds of like scientific and medical studies of how, um, your thought process affects your body, like dying dead cells, cancerous cells, whatever in your body can be affected by the way you think. You know, and so it's important to have like, again, I'm not saying live in a fairy tale, I'm saying face it and go on the journey to deal with it. And what grieves me is there's a lot of people, a lot of my friends even, who have refused to do that, and there's every excuse under the sun that they can give. But at the end of the day, I'm just a firm believer on there is no excuse big enough to not detangle life period, let alone when something like this happens in your life. And so if you're listening to this and no matter where you're at on the gamut of the journey, of the whole thing, or maybe you know nothing about it, that's okay, but you have pain again. That's that's the great unifier in this that you know Donald Miller even talks about is like we all have a story and let's be clear, guys, like a movie where the lead character gets everything he wants when he wants it and just succeeds. The whole movie is a horrible movie. You turn that movie off.
Speaker 1:What you want to see and what, even if you don't know it, what you want to see in your own life is that you're the overcomer, that the guide, the yoda person who comes along, obi-wan kenobi who, who comes along to help Luke along the journey, to make him, you know, the hero of the story. We have to see a change happen in the lead character. You want to see him almost die, almost give up. You know, I read a book on storytelling one time it talks about what audiences want to see or read in a book, in a story is your lead character starts on a horse and they're just trolloping along and they're galloping, whatever. They get kicked off by the evil person. The evil person comes over, bashes them in the head repeatedly until they're a bloody pulp and they're about to die. The audience is like, yes, more killing, more or more, more, whatever. And then you see that now, horrible movie is when they just die. That sucks.
Speaker 1:I hate those types of movies. Some people love them. But you want to see and you know that person is going to rise, they're going to get back on the horse, they're going to heal and they're going to defeat the enemy. But you have to be willing to go on that journey. You have to be willing to find a guide in your life to take you through your sorrow, to take you through your pain. I know people who are resisting their pain. I'm fine, I'm just focused on what. I'm fine, it wasn't that big of a deal. You're epically deceived. Yes, it was, and I know people who are so steeped in the processing of the pain it's like, hey, just remember you do have another, like the story's still going, like don't get stuck in this chapter, because God's writing an epic novel and you can't just stay in the dismal, abysmal chapter beating your head against a wall, like again, we want to get the hero to rise and to continue the journey, and so, anyway, that's kind of where I'm at. Final thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one practical and one spiritual, but practically that's. That's kind of where where I'm at. On a final thoughts, yeah, One practical and one spiritual, but practically I just, even as you're talking, I just feel people might have the excuse of, well, therapy is too expensive. It's, it's a real it's again, it's your. It's your spiritual wellbeing, your mental wellbeing, and I know there's a lot of talk about mental health these days that there wasn't maybe 10, 15 years ago. There is a real value to your mental and spiritual well-being and, whether or not you are able to meet with a therapist once a week or once a quarter, start investing in that because and maybe that, maybe that requires a little bit of rebudgeting and taking a look at your, at your household budget and going where, where am I putting things that maybe are less valuable, that I could be putting towards this Cause, you know and again, like you said, it doesn't just have to be about crisis Life in general is crazy for all of us. We have a lot that we're dealing with and a lot that we're going through all the time, even outside of the realm of crisis. And so therapy, whether it maybe it's just you have a standing meeting with your pastor once a month or whatever. Someone who has life experience that's ahead of you, that can actually sow into and speak into your circumstance. That is invaluable, someone that you trust, someone who knows that they're going to, you're going to, they're going to have your back and they love you. Um is so crucial, so important.
Speaker 2:Another, just, you had mentioned people avoiding their pain, um, or or resisting their pain. I'm reminded, um, as you said, that David wrote Psalm 22. He opens up. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And I didn't know that David had written that until a buddy of mine said actually, jesus quoted David on the cross in his darkest hour to identify. He used a song that David wrote in his most painful hour to identify his own pain in that season.
Speaker 2:I think it's, I just think that's beautiful that Jesus, god hanging on a cross, quoted his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great great grandfather, who was also in the darkest hour of his life, and he used that song, he used the song that David wrote in Psalm 22 to identify and give voice to the pain that he was in.
Speaker 2:So you have no idea, by speaking out your pain, by processing your pain out loud, you have no idea, even just even me being open about my divorce has caused so many other people to come up to me and say this has felt like a taboo subject to talk about in the church. I haven't felt welcome to talk about it. I'm going through a crisis in my marriage. Will you pray for me? Absolutely, I will pray for you because I've been there and I know exactly what you're feeling. And so there's you being open and vulnerable about your pain. Processing it out loud with people actually will give voice to other people's pain and give them a song to sing in their darkest hour, and so I just think that's really beautiful in the scripture that.
Speaker 2:Jesus quoted David on the cross, so and two final thoughts for me.
Speaker 1:Um, stephen Furtick. I'm not sure if he's still doing this, but when I heard him say this a couple of years ago, he said uh, he announced to his congregation one Sunday morning in the midst of his message it wasn't like a formal announcement, but he was preaching on something. And he said the same. And he said I am in weekly preventative counseling, meaning I meet with a counselor every week to just talk through stuff, talk through crap. And he's like and you're paying for it from the church budget, like the church pays for me to keep that process going, and his church actually gave him a standing ovation in that moment. It worked with what he was saying in his sermon process going and his church actually gave him a standing ovation in that moment. It worked with what he was saying in his sermon or whatever. And it was this emotional thing and I'm not sure if that's still the case, but I took that. I was like I massively respect that.
Speaker 1:I know tons of businessmen this isn't a ministry thing Guys, businessmen who pay. They might call it a mastermind and there might be a therapist who's there or like someone who's like speaking in or whatever like. But guys, business people, I feel like I'm gonna say do a better job of keeping themselves sharp and accountable and, and you know, in the flow of different uh streams of people than a lot of preachers and pastors and worship people do like. There has to be that thing that we open up to say I don't have this thing all together in my business or in my worship team or my church, whatever it is, and the last thing I'll end on is um, what the verse you said? The lord is near to the brokenhearted. And so, wherever you find yourself, listen to this podcast, this episode today, just know that he is near and he is for you, he is not against you. The Lord resists the proud, but he gives grace to the humble and, at the end of the day, it's my pride resisting wanting to go to therapy, wanting to talk to someone, wanting to talk to a trusted friend. It's my pride that he gives grace to the humble.
Speaker 1:Matt, we talked about it last time. Just to end, the Throne Room Academy is launching soon. Just give us real quickly again and you said that the last episode, but where people can go to follow you. I just want to say I'm so excited that we've talked about this for a lot of years. It's been in you and Kelly's heart to do this and it's finally happening here, really, really soon. Just give people a quick second on the Throne Room Academy how they can follow you guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jesus prayed, let it be on earth as it is in heaven. When we look at Revelation, chapters four and five, it gives us a heavenly description what God looks like on his throne and what the response is of the angels and the elders and the seraphim that surround him. And so, throne Room Academy, we're just going, verse by verse, line by line, through all of the attributes of God on his throne, looking at the response of the seraphim, the response of the 24 elders, the response of 10,000 times 10,000 angels, and just going how can we implement this in our earthly reality? Here, and so you can check it out, we have a Instagram handle, throne Room Academy. At Throne Room Academy, you can also follow me at Matt Gilman Music and you can also go to throneroomacademycom and you can sign up there, and we'd just like to personally invite you guys to come and join the journey, which would be fun.
Speaker 1:So it's like chorus teaching they watch in the row and then, like a community that they're a part of, discuss it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. The goal is we're going to have core curriculum teaching. We're going to meet weekly, so whether that's, you know, core curriculum teaching, that will likely be prerecorded. But then we're going to have Q and a session. We're going to have worship nights. We're going to have guest teachers. We're going to have um well, it's, it's still in development, so we're not sure exactly what that's all going to land, but how that's all going to land, but it's, it's going to be fun.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. It's amazing. Thanks so much for being on man, so appreciate it. Much love and we'll see you soon. Thank you guys for listening. So appreciate your support of the show. Please like it, subscribe below wherever you're listening, give us a comment down below and please share this podcast and we'll see you guys in the next episode. Thank you.