Rock on: Digging into the history of rock ‘n’ roll

“It’s only rock n roll, but I like it,” is not really a good answer in Washington State University’s popular history of rock music class.

Hundreds of WSU students learn how to really dig into the tunes. They study how rock ‘n’ roll is tied into American society, history, and culture, by analyzing lyrics and music styles from over the decades.

A.J. Miller is the main instructor of the rock ‘n’ roll history class through the WSU School of Music. He talks with magazine associate editor Adriana Janovich about the class, why it matters, and what students get out of it.

They cover everything from The Beatles to Beyoncé, Bob Dylan to Kendrick Lamar. And along the way, Miller introduces a six-step process for examining songs.

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Read more about the class in “School of rock” (Washington State Magazine, Spring 2025).

A.J Miller is also assistant director of the Washington State University Cougar Marching Band. Read about the band and watch a video of them in action at Washington State Magazine.

Transcript

WSM podcast Ep 38 rock n roll class

A.J. Miller: [00:00:00] You know, it's really so common if you have a, someone come up and say, Hey, check out this song. I really like it. Cool. That's great. Why do you like it? Why does it make you, feel the way you do? And that is where the conversation stops. So many people are just like, I don't know, I just like it.

I don't know. It makes me feel good, but there's a reason that it makes you feel those ways. Why does it make you feel that way? Is the music purposeful?

Larry Clark: It's only rock and roll, but I like it is not really a good answer. In Washington State university's popular history of rock music class, hundreds of WSU students learn how to really dig into the tunes. They study how rock and roll is tied into American society, history, and culture by analyzing lyrics and music styles from over the decades.

Welcome to the Washington State [00:01:00] Magazine podcast. We connect you to Washington State University and beyond. I'm Larry Clark, editor of the magazine. A.J. Miller is the main instructor of the rock and roll history class through the WSU School of Music. He talks with magazine associate editor Adriana Janovich about the class, why it matters and what students get out of it.

They cover everything from The Beatles to Beyoncé, Bob Dylan to Kendrick Lamar. And along the way, Miller introduces a six-step process for examining songs.

A.J. Miller: Hello, my name's A.J. Miller. I teach in the School of Music here at WSU. My role is kind of varied. I do a bunch of different things. It seems like my primary job is teaching MUS 262, the history of rock and roll in the United States. So that's my primary function. And then, I [00:02:00] also, maybe 40% of my job is with the Cougar Marching Band and all of the athletic bands.

So for that I direct when I need to, I do some administrative work. I get food and all kinds of what, whatever they need me to do, I do. And then for history of rock and roll, I generally speaking have two sections of that every semester. It's a three-credit hour course that has usually around 220 students a section. So that's around 450 people a semester. So it's a large enrollment, big fun class. 

Adriana Janovich: And when did you start teaching it? 

A.J. Miller: Oh, yeah. So I was hired in 2019. I started in the fall of 2019 teaching the class but I didn't actually start teaching. I was teaching it online. [00:03:00] We have I think three different sections through Global Campus that usually fill out pretty quickly. So I was doing that. And then in the spring of 2020 when the pandemic hit, we had a couple of folks in the School of Music retire and one of them was Dave Snider who taught the class.

Gosh, I don't know how many years he taught the course. When he retired, Dean Luethi, who was the director at the time, approached me about taking it on 'cause it needed to have a little bit of revision done. Dave is a pretty eclectic guy, but I think I'm just as eclectic for good or ill.

So, after he retired in spring 2020, Dean asked me if I would consider taking it over. And then, [00:04:00] whenever we came back in person, what was that? Fall 21. I took over the big giant in-person class and been doing it ever since. They haven't run me out yet. 

Adriana Janovich: Does anyone else teach it or are you the main professor that teaches this class?

A.J. Miller: That's a good question. So we have basically two versions. We have the Global Campus version. It's designed so that anybody can teach it, which is great. That's actually really, really handy. And then the in-person one, the one that I do, I completely revamped and I'm the only one that does that. That one is all me. 

Adriana Janovich: Talk about the syllabus. What do you cover each semester? Kind of where do you start and then where do we end up at the end of the semester? 

A.J. Miller: Sure. In the broadest, simplest way to put it, my goal for them is to be able to listen to [00:05:00] music and articulate what they do or don't like about that music.

And I know that's really simplistic, but there's a lot that goes into that. So we look at a little bit of music theory there. The course is 99% non-music majors. So, I do a good amount of music theory for non-musicians is what we call it, where we look at how things are constructed, what the form of tunes are and things like that but we do that in a way that doesn't, or I feel like we do anyways, try and do that in a way that doesn't alienate people. So we look at that kind of stuff, but then we also spend a lot of time learning to analyze lyrics from kind of a literary perspective. Through that though, there's, you know, a broader cultural lens. Why did Bob Dylan write the way that he wrote?

You know, we're talking about hip hop [00:06:00] right now. Why did Kendrick Lamar say the things that he said, right? So we learn to contextualize things in order to hopefully give them a better understanding of the music, but also a greater appreciation for it. And the reason I say, you know, learn how to listen and then articulate why they do or don't like something.

It's really so common if you have a, someone come up and say, Hey, check out this song. I really like it. Cool. That's great. Why, why do you like it? Why does it make you feel the way you do? And that is where the conversation stops. So many people are just like, I don't know, I just like it. I don't know. It makes me feel good.

But there's a reason that it makes you feel those ways. Why does it make you feel that way? Is the music purposeful? And we don't have to do that for everything. We don't have to analyze every single song out there. And I [00:07:00] don't want to, 'cause I want them to still enjoy the music.

Like, if we're listening to the song, let's say the song “Tax Man” by the Beatles. If we're talking about that song and someone says, I really dig that song. And you say, why? They're like, I don't know, I just, I just like it. Well. There's a lot to that song, right? That song is a protest song about over taxation in the sixties.

And my hope is that they can hear something like this and they say, I like it. What is that song about? And then they can actually say, yeah, I dig this tune. You know, George was really thinking about the tax system at this time and the way he kind of like thinly attacks, the government in power at the time is really interesting. He doesn't do it in a direct way. He kind of does it in an indirect way. And I think that for me, that helps me appreciate the music a lot better. And I think for students, they really start to [00:08:00] grow with their music. Like their appreciation of it just gets better and better as the semester goes along.

And we kind of culminate, we're thinking of like the, the syllabus here, we culminate in an essay and it's a shorter essay. I tell them no more than two pages, but if they go over two pages, I don't dock them or anything. But I always tell them like I got 400 of these to read, like keep it short, you know.

But the culminating essay is a compare and contrast thing where I have them pick a topic of their choosing. They pick whatever they want and then two songs that relate to that topic. So the example I give them is by Toby Keith, “Courtesy of The Red, White, and Blue” is the name of the song by Toby Keith, rest in peace, just passed away recently.

And then a song called “Open Letter to NYC” by the Beastie Boys. And both of those songs are [00:09:00] direct references to the September 11th, 2001, terrorist attacks. But how they approach writing about that event, it's really different. And my goal for them is, again they don't have to pick my example, but the goal is for them to look at how artists interpret outside events, how they experience the world around them and how does that experience influence the songs that they create. Hopefully by doing that and actually being able to write about it and say something in a coherent way, when they go out and they get a job and they are in those kind of social settings, they can actually like, have a conversation that is more meaningful other than I like it or I don't like it. Sorry, that was a really long way to get there, but I got that. That was great. 

Adriana Janovich: Thank you. Talk a little bit more about their workload. You mentioned that kind of key assignment at the end of the semester. What do the [00:10:00] quizzes cover? Are there any other key assignments throughout the semester, maybe at midterm or something? 

A.J. Miller: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, they have two exams. So the exams that they take are all multiple choice. They're all online, through Canvas. There's one at midterm and a final.

But in terms of like assignments at the very, very beginning of class, they have to tell me their favorite song with three sentences why. The instructions are maybe a little pointed. The instructions have sentences that they absolutely cannot use. Like, I like the way this song makes me feel.

You just said nothing. You didn't tell me how it makes you feel. So right from the get go, I want them to start thinking about the music that they're going to hear and the music that they consume on a daily basis. So we start with that. We do have a couple of little quizzes throughout that are just kind of spot checks. Like when we finish talking about the Beatles, there's a little quiz and one of the [00:11:00] questions, because it's important and you would be shocked how many people get it wrong, is name the four members of the Beatles. You know? And those, those types of things, I don't do those to like waste their time. These are the things that, stuff you should just know, even if you didn't take my class, you should just know these things. And then, I didn't do it this semester and, but I've done it in previous semesters and I wanna bring it back, I used to do, like a late mid song analysis after our Bob Dylan section.

They could pick the song. Again, I want them to choose, I don't give them any parameters in terms of song choice, but they pick the song. And then using, we have a six-step process that I teach them for analyzing lyrics. And we do that with Bob Dylan, 'cause Bob Dylan is the GOAT for lyrical analysis.

And, but they pick their song and then using those steps, [00:12:00] they analyze the song themselves and write like, nothing big, just like a paragraph or two and try and tell me what the song is about. What might have been some context if there was a social event or a global event that occurred at the same time.

Adriana Janovich: And it sounds like a fun assignment too. 

A.J. Miller: I hope so. That's, honestly, I always tell them whenever their final essay is due I think in a week, I tell them my goal for you for this is to not hate what you're doing. Like I want you to pick a song you like, pick artists you like, and learn to appreciate them as artists more. If you are doing this assignment and you find it to be a slog and that you are hating it, then I have missed the mark. I want you to enjoy doing this and appreciate, like learn to appreciate the stuff that you consume on a daily basis. Yeah. So that is I, I try to tell them, [00:13:00] please. Let this be fun.

Don't overthink it. Don't rack your brain. Just do something fun. So far that's worked out well. Pretty okay. Not a lot of stress. I hope so. Yeah. 

Adriana Janovich: Really quickly. What are those six steps? 

A.J. Miller: Oh my gosh. Okay, so, gimme one second. I don't wanna go out of order. I can pull up my book here.

So, the first, this is my least favorite day in class. Not because it's not fun, I actually enjoy it a lot, but it is a drag for the students. It's a six-step process. The first step is just like how we do it in class. We pick a song, and the song that I've used last couple of semesters, and I'm probably gonna change it up next semester 'cause I'm getting a little bored of it, is a tune called “Subterranean Homesick Blues” by Bob Dylan.

So what we do for step one, [00:14:00] you take your pencil and your phone, whatever you wanna do, you're just gonna listen to the song. You're not reading any lyrics, you're not doing anything. You are just writing what your gut reaction to the song is. Did it make you feel a certain way? Did you feel like he was, the artist was trying to communicate something?

Did you dislike it? Did you like it? Did you have any personal reactions? So that's the first one. We listen to it, then they write those, answer those questions a little bit. And then step two is just surface details, so we go to the lyrics. Bob Dylan is great for this 'cause all of his music, or all of his songs, the lyrics are available on his website. And that's even linked in our textbook. So it's super easy for them to find when we do the surface details. You listen through the lyrics and you try and find like examples of word play, if there are words that might have a double meaning or multiple meanings, if there's any like exaggeration or [00:15:00] illusion, any kind of like similes, metaphors, any kind of stuff like that, or any symbolism that you can find.

Nothing too crazy. We don't look at like context or anything yet. We're just looking at the lyrics and kind of trying to find the low hanging fruit, so to speak. And then step three, is when we actually start looking at the composer's life, at the songwriter's life, what is going on in their lives, what is going on maybe socially. Was this song, the year that it came out, was this in a reaction to, I don't know, something in the civil rights movement or something else going on at the time?

Was there something, an outside influence, that could have influenced what the song is about? So then step four is, now is your time to actually explain what the song is about. Okay. So now they take it and [00:16:00] we find, we've looked at the lyrics, we found our like low hanging fruit, our easy things to spot.

We've looked at the context surrounding the song or the composer's life, what's going on globally or maybe not even globally, but whichever. And now with all of that information in prose, you will write down what the song is about in as basic language as you can. And then once you've done that, you kind of, get an idea of, okay, cool, I know what he's trying to say here.

And then the fifth step is where the music theory stuff comes in a little bit. This is where we talk about the form. Is it a 12-bar blues? Is it a song that is like a ballad where that's like, got kind of A section that repeats and then a bridge and then goes back to that A section.

You know, if it's a Beatles song, like all of their early stuff was either a blues or in this A, [00:17:00] A-B-A kind of form. So, usually, usually step five for this class, usually step five is pretty basic. When we think of form in like classical music, that's a pain. That's like analyzing symphonies and stuff.

We're not doing that. We have to remember that this is normally not super complicated music. And then the very last step, this one is my favorite one. The last step is describe how it's performed. But I tweak it a little bit from how our textbook kind of lays it out. Step six is describing like the performance itself.

Like what does the voice sound like? What instruments do you hear? Is there a guitar solo? Is there X, Y, and Z? All of that we throw in there. But what I like to add that I think helps is kind of throw a wrench in their thinking is, once we get to this step, we've listened to the [00:18:00] song like four or five times at this point.

So for the last one, I will often change it up. “Subterranean Homesick Blues” is what we've been using for the last listen. I will tell them, okay, we've heard Bob Dylan do it four times now. Now we're gonna listen to the Red Hot Chili Peppers do it. All of the stuff still applies, but does their interpretation of the song change anything that you heard? Does it change your mind about liking it or not liking it? Does it change your mind about what the song could be about? Do they have different inflection? Or yeah, do they have a different accent on certain words, or whatever? Once we get to the end, then we say, alright, here's a different version of this exact same song.

Maybe it's a live version or something. And now does it change what you think the song is? Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does, but that's it. That's once we get to the step six and we've done that. Then we have our little list of stuff, and when we do [00:19:00] the actual analysis as like an assignment, it has to be in prose. But for when we do it together in class,

it's loosey goosey. They're not turning anything into me. They can write in bullet points. They can do whatever they wanna do. They can use emojis for all I care. I just care that they're actually like doing it, you know what I mean? And then when they do their final essay as well, the expectation, and they know this, I hope, the expectation is that they, for each of the songs, they're gonna follow those steps 'cause that's hopefully how they're learning to understand them. 

Adriana Janovich: Talk a little bit about your approach to class. I know this has come up in some of the other answers, but just what kind of atmosphere do you try to create in the auditorium? What kind of, or what kind of tone do you want to convey?

And on the other side of that, talk about some more of the key takeaways, like in addition to being able to articulate why, you like a [00:20:00] particular song or piece of music, what else do you want them to know about rock and roll and its place in American history and American society and art and culture?

A.J. Miller: Sure. Yeah. okay, so I'll start with the atmosphere first. My goal when I'm teaching in general is to be approachable. I guess I don't want them, I'm trying to think of the most polite way of saying this, I don't want ever on my course evals, I never want to have a course eval where they say, the student says, I found Dr. Miller to be not very approachable. I want them to understand that this class in the grand scheme of things, and I'm not putting myself down, I'm not being self-deprecating, in the grand scheme of things, this class is not very important. It's music. What we're doing here is a thing [00:21:00] that has been enjoyed for centuries and all we're doing is learning about something that is meant to be enjoyed.

And I think it's important for me personally. To make sure they know that, like I want them to come to class and recognize that we are learning about something that is fun. Yes, we cover serious topics, for sure. But we do though, we do have that understanding that we're not here researching how to cure cancer.

We are here talking about the Beatles. We're here talking about Kendrick Lamar. And so, in terms of creating an environment, I try to be welcoming and I try to be open with all of them. And I never shy away from giving like my own opinion on things. And I think that by having that authenticity, I think that it does allow a little bit more of, [00:22:00] a little bit more comfort for the student. So I don't know if that, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it hasn't failed me yet. So, yeah, I just want them, I want them to understand that what we're doing is important, but it's not, this shouldn't be something that stresses you out.

What I would love for them to get from all of this is that the music, not all of it came from America, but it has affected American life. What I want them to get from it is that these artists have made a huge impact on how we view and how we approach the world. You know, the, the easiest one to talk about is the Beatles.

They come along and they literally changed the world. They changed how we communicate with each other. They changed how concerts were done. You know, they were the first ones to have, I mean, Shea Stadium. It was an arena. They were the first ones to do [00:23:00] arena rock. So, you know, having them realize that, yes, well this might not be, like I said, it's not the most consequential thing ever, but what we're doing is looking at stuff that impacts how we live our day-to-day lives. Yeah. So we're talking about hip hop right now and, sorry, tangent time. We're talking about hip hop right now. And one of the things I want them to take away from all of this is the why behind certain things.

I'm not gonna swear. I could swear, but I'm not going to. We talked about, the hip hop group NWA just last week, and they were the first group to get, an FBI warning on their CD cover. The response to that is, oh, well they got that because they have songs about killing people and drugs and all this stuff, but the big question is why did they have that? What's the context there? Right? [00:24:00] So, you know, it sounds generic, but I want them to understand that through this music, you can become a more informed citizen. Right? Like the example I give them all the time about NWA, they have the song “Straight Outta Compton” where they're talking about, you know, gang violence and selling drugs and shooting police officers and all of that stuff, which is bad, but the context behind that is that's their day-to-day life. That's what they're living, that's what they experienced. So, you know, for me, and I'll use my mom as an example. My mom is not a fan of hip hop, and her and I have had actually had arguments before because she will say stuff like, that's just talking over drums or something.

You know something, that is not really true. But what I try to tell her is, well, if you want to inspire change, you have to get attention on yourself. And the guys in NWA, they weren't just saying all this stuff 'cause [00:25:00] they like to use swear words all the time. It was really kind of a documentation of their experience.

And my mom, myself, why would we know? We're from Indiana. You know, why would I know what's going on in Compton, a place that frankly I'd never heard of until I became a teenager? By understanding this stuff, the context behind these things, you can actually, that can inform how you vote, that can inform how you perceive politics, perceive the world.

And so I don't, in terms of like, what do I want them to learn academically, whatever, that's irrelevant. Learn how to analyze songs, learn some forms, learn some stuff like that. But really being an informed citizen and understanding like, hey, this is a reflection of the modern culture.

That's important to me. And I think that when they do that, that really can inspire a lot of change and change for the good. And it can [00:26:00] open up, you know, people's minds.  I know she's a little on the fence right now, but, we talk about Lizzo and creating a healthy positive body image and all this stuff.

And again, I know she's quasi-canceled at the moment. What these artists are singing about, what they're writing about can really help us if we're open to it, can really help us understand the world better because it's a worldview that's not our own. So if anything, I want them to get that out of the class.

Adriana Janovich: That's huge. 

A.J. Miller: Yeah. I hope it works. We'll see how it goes. 

Adriana Janovich: We talked a little bit about the history of the class, but do you know when it first started being offered at WSU and a little bit more about how it was developed and how its popularity grew?

A.J. Miller: Sure. I do know some of this, I don't know the exact year. WSU was one of the first, not the first, but one of the [00:27:00] first schools in the country to offer this kind of class. It was started in, again I don't know the year, but it was started by David Jarvis, Dave Jarvis. He got to WSU, I pulled up his bio so I could get this correct, Dave got to WSU in 1987. He retired in 2020. He was a longtime percussion professor here, really good drum set player, really nice guy. He now lives in Hawaii 'cause he retired and decided he hates all of us and went to Hawaii. He actually started the class, again, I don't know the exact year, but early in his tenure here at WSU.

And then it had several teachers after that. But, but it's also very appealing. You know, people, it's music that people like. And so it's one of those like, why haven't we had this before? You know what I mean? And Dave, I don't know if you've ever [00:28:00] met Dave before, but Dave is a very kind of gregarious kind of dude.

So I would've loved to see how he would've approached teaching the class. 'cause he's got pretty eclectic taste in music. He's a pretty funny guy. He's a pretty cool dude. If you've never got a chance to meet him, he's fun. So that's the history of it here.

And then it's, I know Dave Snider taught it before me. Brian Ward did some, Brian Carter did some, but mostly it was, mostly it was Dave Jarvis. Man, he was great. 

Adriana Janovich: And now it's your baby. 

A.J. Miller: Now it's my baby. Thank you, Dave. 

Adriana Janovich: And through teaching the course and and prepping the course, what have you learned about the history of rock and roll and its place in society?

A.J. Miller: Oh my gosh, really what I personally have learned is that this music is timeless, man. [00:29:00] I'm gonna use an example from not this class, if that's okay. So currently, I'm teaching a class in the Honors College, all about The Beatles. And which is something I've been wanting to do for a while.

And I took the dive and created a proposal and they accepted it, and it's awesome and I'm enjoying it. And this, I'm only saying this because it happened yesterday, and it's fresh on my mind. So, in that class, we're currently in the “White” album on The Beatles, and we were talking about George Harrison yesterday, and we listened to the song, “While My Guitar Gently Weeps.” And I asked them beforehand in the class, how many of them had heard the song before, and like three or four people raised their hand. There's 20 some in the class. It's smaller, it's in the Honors College, so a few of 'em raised their hand and I was like, oh, my, what? So then we listened to it and afterwards I was like, how many of you liked it?

[00:30:00] And I always tell them like, if you hated it, fine. It's subjective, you can do whatever. But I'm just curious, like how many of you liked it and like the number of them that was like, “that was cool,” that was awesome. Significant. And so what I'm kind of learning through this, and I'm trying to do this with modern or current artists as well, is a lot of the music, the reason that we are talking about it at all is that it's timeless.

It is our folk music. The Beatles and Bob Dylan are our folk music. That's our “Go Tell Aunt Rhody” and you know that music is gonna outlive us. It's gonna, you know, continue to impact people decades from now. Beyoncé on “Cowboy Carter,” the album that just came out, she covers “Blackbird” and that song is, is one of the most recorded songs of all time.

It's got a powerful civil rights message, and Beyoncé comes [00:31:00] out and does it. And so that's an opportunity for us to say, Hey, look at how this song written by someone in the sixties, 50 no, gosh. 60 years ago now. Right? Yeah, like that one song is still impacting us today and it's even impacting people who, maybe when it's all said and done, Beyoncé might be higher selling than The Beatles, you know what I mean? But that's irrelevant because the music that they made is still impacting the people that we're listening to now. And so for me, I think that was a really big eye-opening thing was, you know, I grew up listening to this music.

My dad was a big Jerry Lee Lewis fan. My mom is a Motown and Beatles fan, like through and through. And so I grew up listening to it and enjoying it. And what I'm realizing is, I was pretty fortunate and that the folks that have never heard this stuff before, [00:32:00] it is still something that you can…the gateway is open.

They can still come in and enjoy it and like it, and I think that keeping that culture alive in terms of its place in the world or in the US is vital. Making sure that we know where the music we listen to, where it came from, the history behind it, and why it's so influential still. I think that's really, really important and for me, learning that so many of them just don't know this music or if they do, it's very casual. Making sure that they understand that like, this is our culture, this is the stuff that our kids are gonna be listening to, that their kids are going to be listening to. Yeah. They'll be listening to, I dunno, space Beyoncé or something, but they're still gonna be listening to “Yesterday” and they're still gonna be listening to, you know, “Blonde on Blonde” and all that stuff.

Like, it was really cool. I didn't think it was going to be as, [00:33:00] profound for me personally as it has become. It's just a cool thing. It's neat. It's cool whenever we do something that I'm confident they've never heard before, and like to see some of them like, tilt their heads and be like, that's really cool. That's really enjoyable. Like, that's just a cool like teacher moment I guess. So, yeah. Yeah. 

Adriana Janovich: What are some of the other bands and artists that you cover in the class and some different genres within rock and roll? 

A.J. Miller: Oh gosh. We go through a lot. We listen to a lot. So, we're not done with hip hop. We've got one more day of hip hop on Monday. So today we talked about Kendrick Lamar. We talked about The Roots, we talked about Tec9, Outkast. On Monday, we're gonna talk about Lauryn Hill. We've done the Beach Boys, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd. So the class, generally speaking is pretty chronological.

So we start with your Elvis', [00:34:00] your Chuck Berrys, your Little Richards. Then we go to the Beatles and the Beach Boys, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, British invasion stuff. And then once we get to the eighties, I stop going chronologically and start doing things by genre. 'cause that's MTV's fault. I don't wanna go down that rabbit hole.

But we look at New Wave bands. So we talk about like The Police and, “take me to the river,” the Talking Heads. There we go. Talk about The Police, Talking Heads. We've talked about the Foo Fighters a little bit. We're gonna talk them about them a little bit more. We talked about Weezer.

So when, when we, when we talk about like subgenres, we look at emo, we look at punk, new wave. Country, not a lot of country, but actually, that's not true. We do actually do kind of a lot of country. I talked to 'em a little bit about, The Eagles when we talked about country, The Eagles. but like modern guys, like, Sturgill Simpson, like [00:35:00] man, modern. Like there are some really heavy hitters out there for country music right now. If you don't know Sturgill Simpson, go look him up. He's great. 

So, yeah, well, I mean there's maybe too many to name. We got like 20 subgenres that we go through, and that's always, we talk about Michael Jackson 'cause he is…if it weren't for Michael Jackson, MTV would've sunk. And MTV was at one point the most influential television network.

So we kind of, we go through a lot.

Larry Clark: Thanks for listening. You can read more about the rock and roll class in the Spring 2025 issue of Washington State Magazine. Visit magazine.wsu.edu for that story and a lot more from WSU. 

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This episode was produced by Adriana Janovich and [00:36:00] me, Larry Clark. Our music is by WSU Emeritus Professor and composer, Greg Yasinitsky.