311: Making Decisions & Serving The Song | How ninnyliver Created Their Debut Album

What does it actually take to finish a self-produced album you’re genuinely proud of?

In this episode, we sit down with Dan and Neil from ninnyliver to talk about the mindset, creative decisions and production process that helped them finally finish and release their debut album after years of writing, learning and refining their craft.

We explore what it means to trust your instincts, make decisions that serve the song, avoid perfectionism, and stay true to your artistic vision. Even when you’re not entirely sure you’re getting it right.

We also talk about:

• Why chasing perfection can make your music worse
• How to know when a song is finished
• Making production decisions with confidence
• Recording authentic performances instead of perfect ones
• Building a unique sound instead of copying other artists
• How better demos transformed their songwriting process
• Why finishing music is a skill you can learn

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If this episode helps you, we’d really appreciate it if you left a rating or shared it with another self-recording artist. It helps us reach more musicians, invite exciting guests and keep the podcast going.

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For links to everything we've mentioned in this episode, as well as full show notes go to:

theselfrecordingband.com/311

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🚀 Want Our Personal Help Applying This To Your Own Songs?

If you want feedback on your songs, your arrangements, your recordings, or your mixes…

…followed by a clear plan to turn your demos into finished releases...

...plus the professional guidance to implement it all:

👉 Apply for coaching:

theselfrecordingband.com/coaching

We’ll listen to your music, create a custom plan for you, and help you execute it step by step.

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If you have any questions, feedback, topic ideas or want to suggest a guest, email us at: podcast@theselfrecordingband.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

We are here today with Neil and Dan from a band called Ninny Liver from Florida. And uh I'm really excited about this episode because Neil has joined our um coaching program uh in late 2024, I think, and what has happened since then was pretty mind-blowing. Um the music you produced, the music they have written as a band and released, and the album they've put out and the new stuff they're working on currently just blew my mind. There was progress all the time. There's so many cool things to talk about. It's an exciting new band with a very unique sound, very uh unique production choices, which got bolder and bolder over time. Um and so yeah, I'm I'm just stoked to have them here and share their story with you and uh their music. So my name is Benedict Tyne. I'm the host of the show. This is called the Self-Recording Band Podcast. I'm doing this with my friend and co-host, Manel Espinosa from Spain. Hello, Manil, good to have you. Hello, I'm really happy to be back here again after a couple of months. Awesome. Yeah, we're back with a new uh episode, with a new format. Like on this podcast, we help we help self-recording artists make recordings, make exciting sounding recordings and mixes from their jam spaces and home studios. And we've been doing that in different ways. Now we're switching this podcast to an interview-only podcast, and this is the first one of the interviews uh that are about to follow, and we're we're super excited for that change as well. I'm a mix engineer, that's what I do full-time. Uh, and Manel is a producer mixer as well. Uh, we've worked on many, many records. We're working on hundreds of songs every single year, and we also run the coaching program called the Self-Recording Syndicate. So that's what we do. But now to this episode. Welcome, Neil, welcome Dan, welcome, Ninny Liver. So great to have you. Thank you for taking the time to be here with us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Thank you, guys. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Yeah, so um, I mean, I'd kinda don't like the typical, you know, tell us the story of the band and like where how did you start and all that, but also I think it's kind of necessary. So I'm gonna start a little differently. I want to hear a little bit of your background story, but maybe I want to start with something that nobody could figure out online, like some sort of fun fact, something you want to share that's not the typical band bio. Can you think of anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, I mean, uh, we're we're certainly not the the only band to uh uh you know uh approach their music as as not the the main um you know source of their life. But uh I mean Dan and I, while we've been, you know, uh making music together regularly for the last year and a half or so, I mean, we've been writing and playing together for close to 20 years now. And so the songs on this album, um, you know, some of them are 20 years old, some of them are, you know, just a year old. So we've had, you know, you you you get you get kind of you know 18-year-old Dan and you get, you know, 30-something Dan. So uh, and it's in in fact, it's so spread out that when I was putting together some of the videos for a release party, I had performance footage of one of the songs when Dan was 18 years old. So the video is an audio recording of us now, but the the the the video itself is from like 20 years ago. And I don't I don't know how many bands shoot the video 20 years before the song actually comes out, but that's that's how some of this worked out. You know, that that just shows how long we've wanted to do this and and just how exciting it is that you know we've just finally been able to get this material just to sound and and and be released the way that we want it to. So yeah, it's a long time coming, you know. We're like, you know, I'm I'm a grandpa and just started my rock star career. So, you know, that's maybe not so conventional, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

That video is amazing. Uh it's Neil and I on the beach playing dancing with enemies uh acoustically, and um we sunk it up to the uh recording on Life versus Lim for the video, and it it's just it's perfect. It's it's great.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah, wow, that that's exactly the stuff that I was looking for. That's such a cool story. Also, I always I constantly forget that you're a grandpa already, Neil. Like that that also blows my mind.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Two times now.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Two times now. Wow, that's cool. That's really cool. Well, I mean, and also that's I think it's a great thing to be a young um grandpa. I mean, you get to spend a lot of time with your grandkids, so that's that's awesome. Yeah. Man, very cool. So um, yeah, you mentioned before, this is like material that's some of the some of it's it's 20 years old, some of it is is new. Um what have you done uh in these years prior, like before we got to know each other? Like did you play the those songs live or just for yourself in the jam space, or like um there must have been something you did to that just kept the the fire going, sort of, or that like yeah, just describe the situation before you started releasing those songs now, finally.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Sure, yeah. So, you know, when I was in college, the technology was kind of just getting to the point where you could get a real cheap entry-level DW and I could plug my, you know, I had an eighth-inch, you know, jack in the front of my sound card, and I could plug my you know, acoustic guitar output into there, and I could plug my dynamic mic into there and and just you know make very rudimentary multi-track stuff in my dorm room. And, you know, the the sound card, you know, couldn't handle it. It was all sort of hissing and scratching, but oh my gosh, I loved it. It like it was like my songs were starting to like come together, and and I loved it. And you know, so I would goof with that. And and then eventually, you know, uh Dan, he started playing guitar and and he started writing. And and you know, we're a few years apart, and I'm down in Florida, and he's up in Michigan, but you know, he's sending me the stuff he's doing, and and I'm really liking, you know, to just start to get my songs recorded.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

And so uh, you know, one spring break, I was like, Dan, you know, come on down for for a week, let's let's make a record, you know, and and so Neil flew me down, and uh I I brought with me my little uh like what was it, like a four input, maybe like a six input interface by Omega.

unknown 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

The old lexicon by Omega. That's right, that's right. And um it's actually uh the first time that I actually got to put it to use, trying to to really learn how to use it. And Neil just tearing into it and trying to figure it out. Um the first time he's ever seen an interface, and other than just plugging plugging directly in to his computer, he's like, wow, this is something else. And um that's when we recorded uh yeah, so we we spent a week, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

I didn't know anything about mixing. I would I would adjust clip gain and slip edit a little bit. And once again, I was like, oh my gosh, this sounds so good. I love this so much. You know, we made we made a little, you know, six, you know, we're on our way, we got six songs. It's great. And uh, you know, um kind of stuck with that over the years. And so yeah, anytime I would record, it'd be that same, that same little setup, you know, and and everything came out, yeah. I liked the quality of the material that I was writing, but it the recordings always came out sounding the same because I was always doing the same thing, you know, and and I'd I'd Google a few things, but I never, you know, I figured I'd have to go to university or you know, spend, you know, hours and you know, a lifetime on the you know corners of YouTube to figure it all out. And it just, it's so overwhelming. So I was like, well, I'm sure, I'm sure it'll get better. And then so, you know, a few months later I'd do another recording and it would sound the same. And and you know, it just got a little frustrating. I I loved recording my stuff, I loved listening to it, but I also knew that at the end of the day, it just sounded like a guy with this computer who didn't really know what he was doing. And, you know, the years went on, and I mean, you know, I got married, you know, the kids came, kind of rolled off of the music a little bit, and and Dan, you know, Dan grew up, got a job, did all that stuff for a while too, and and you know, we kind of we kind of just let the music go. But a couple years ago, you know, I it came back again and I was like, all right, this time we can do it. Come on down, Dan. Let's spend a long weekend. We're gonna make, we're gonna make, you know, four songs are gonna sound fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

And you know, I I uh I flew down and I'm like, yeah, let's try this. I I mean I took a little hiatus from music and everything, and and we hadn't tried in a while, and and uh we we had a a long weekend that weekend um and laid down what four four tracks.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yep. Um and and they all came out sounding exactly like everything.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Just like everything we would do before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

So I was like, I don't know. I I you know it's not just getting better on its own. You know, I got a bit I had a better interface at that point, but you know, obviously it's still the same general principle, you know. No, no, no, no emphasis on pre-production, no emphasis on any of any of the stuff that of course, you know, we know now and the stuff that we value now. So I mean, it just got to the point where I didn't know what to do. And and right around then, a buddy of mine was uh was shopping around for mixing engineers on Sound Better, and I mean he ended up hiring the drummer from OK Go. And that blew my mind that, you know, hobbyists like us could have access to working with professionals. And so that got me thinking, okay, maybe there is a pathway where, and I don't just want to farm it out. I don't just want to, you know, track it and and have someone else finish it. I want to learn, but okay, I know, I know that there's ways for me to maybe hire professionals and work with professionals, but how can I, how can I learn to do it? You know, someone you know who has who has a job, who, you know, who has a life, but but has you know some time and and and willing to invest in my music. And uh I even reached out to my favorite band's producer, and uh, I mean, he he wrote me back and he was very gracious and he listened to our crappy demos and you know, and and and he was willing to you know help and give some expertise, but he was you know in in a different country and and he just didn't have a uh a system or a setup, and you know, there was really no way for for that to to to you know to to to be the the the the in-depth thing that I needed and and I I don't know I was kind of discouraged. I kind of hit a wall and and then you know late one night I'm watching some you know college football game, some West Coast game, and scrolling through my phone, and and then you know, Benny pops up on my reel and you know, and he's saying, you know, do you do you want your home recordings to sound the way that you want them to? You do you, you know, do you want to take things to the next level? And I I mean, of course, you know, he was on my algorithm. He wasn't the first one to come on my screen. And, you know, most of them are courses, most of them are plug-ins or books or whatever. But, you know, at the end of it, you know, Benny, Benny said, you know, we'd love to hear your music, we'd love to talk to you and see if we can if we can work with you if we're a good fit. And and and and that was that was where, you know, I was knowing I needed to go. Somebody that that could, you know, that could give me feedback, that could listen to my stuff, and you know, who who was willing to coach and work and and you know, be be part of the process. And so I think that same night I, you know, filled out the form and you know, uploaded my crappy demos. And I think like maybe the next day I had a Zoom call with Benny. And uh, you know, that was that was the first time I I I in a long time I was really excited because you know, here was somebody who knew where I was at and I knew where he was at and and and where you know where I wanted to go. And and and you know, you started to explain to me the path that it would take to get there. And it it was tangible and it it seemed doable, and and uh I mean that was so exciting.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Oh man, totally. And I remember that because you also put a lot of thought into this, and uh, there wasn't just this one Zoom conversation, and like in fact, we had another quick phone call, I think, a day later or a couple days later or so, uh, where you had some additional questions, and that was actually a really good sign in my opinion, because it showed me that like you were seriously you know thinking about it, you were you were you know putting thoughts thought into it, you um you you you know it it just there were doubts, of course, but that's a that's a good thing that you wanted to have another conversation and in that and I only want to work with people who are willing to take this you know seriously and also take their own music seriously, and I don't want to promise something unrealistic, and so it's actually cool that people when people have doubts and ask questions and then get my answers. And so I remember this conversation um and it was a really good one, and then eventually we decided to work together, and I'm really excited that we did because looking back now, if I listened to this, I just listened to the album to the album again before recording this episode, and I'm like I'm so stoked about it all. It's like especially you know, you coming into this, you were in a spot where you had great, first of all, you had a great vision, you knew exactly what you liked and didn't like in music, you had a very specific taste in music. We talked about some of the bands you liked and all of that. And but like when it comes to the technical knowledge, like you had some experience, like you said, but there were also, of course, big knowledge gaps when the whole drum thing, you were not a drummer and you never really programmed realistic sounding drums, so that was one thing. Then you had a pretty specific thing in mind of like vibey, distorted, saturated kind of sounds, and like not just a clean, super polished, overproduced thing. And and there there's just a lot to learn, and it got me it got me excited, the specificity of it also. And um and then the goal you set when when we uh first talked was, and I just copied this into my notes here, was um to finish this album, release it, maybe press a few vinyl, but I have no idea if that is cost prohibitive, and have my songs be able uh to sit on a mixtape and the audience not be distracted by the quality of my production. So that was the goal. I think mission accomplished because the record is out and you have made vinyl. Um but I think there was that was just a very broad kind of goal, but there was more to it because, in my opinion, the way I remember it, that it was not just a professional sound, it was a very specific thing you were going for. It was maybe hard to put into words, but you had pretty specific things in mind. You were afraid of things sounding too sterile or too generic. Uh, you wanted to do something unique, you had some bands that you liked with a specific sound. So maybe, maybe let's talk about that real quick. Because to me, the vision of the artist is always the most important thing and the biggest challenge to make that come out of the speakers. So, what is it that you guys, you two, like in music? And what is it that you think is special or unique about your music? And like let's talk about that artistic vision a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, that that's that's that's probably the most exciting part for me. And um, I'll I'll uh I'll let Dan talk about his part uh in a second. I'll just say first that, you know, uh and that's exactly it, Benny. So, you know, I I I knew the records that I loved, you know, um, you know, a lot of the old Angeloid Weber stuff, you know, those early concept albums, the the the the way that they recorded those instruments, and they were, of course, you know, their their stories, so they're they're they're very cinematic. Um, of course, you know, like they're you know, their their musicals, that stuff. And so the idea that you could have that type of lean production that I liked with that such that great writing, you know, and then pivot that over to like the stuff that Dave Fridman's been doing with the flaming lips for the last you know 20 years, you know, you you've got also the opportunity to, you know, put modern sounds with that kind of writing. And so, you know, there's nothing more exciting than me than having a great song and then interesting production on top of it. So, you know, there's there's nothing wrong with with great songs that just stand on their own and you know, the arrangements don't do much, they're just great songs, and that's great. But man, there's nothing more exciting than me than, you know, taking, you know, like um, like, you know, like The Stranger, like a Billy Joel record. You've got like that's what I call a magical album. Like, you know, you can't take a song off, you know. You well, we'll fight all day about what song to take off of that album. But not only do you have that, but you've got some of the best session players in the world, you know, that became his band, you know, you've got a great producer, you know, Thormoan was fantastic. And so you've got great songs, plus you've got the the the desire to put a greater great arrangement and a lot of thought into the arrangement. And so that's that's what I was excited to do. And I mean, Dan had been writing, you know, really good songs for a lot of years, and and he demoed a few of them out, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I demoed quite a few of them out. Um, well, one of my uh buddies, Nick LaBelle, who's actually a bigger time producer now, go Nick, that's awesome. Um, he uh helped record me uh about four or five of my songs, and they were at like a professional quality, and that was really awesome. And that was just like introduction to uh trying to get a good production sound and and stuff. But uh when I brought my stuff to Neil um and we wanted to move forward with doing something together, uh a big thing of uh what Neil has taught me is um arrangement. And um so I I a lot of times in writing songs, I would go from like a like a point A to point B and try to just try to get there and and and I I knew that I could do it and I loved doing it, but I I just wanted the to kind of get it going and and get it done and and uh follow a certain pattern. And and Neil showed me and taught me that um bringing arrangement to a song can make it just so much more. And then um on the production side of things, there's a lot of things that you can do to it to to just bring more life into it. And um he mentioned like the flaming lips four years ago. Uh we took a trip to Colorado and we listened to a Flaming Lips album just the entire time, and um just like the there's such like full sound and an atmosphere to the whole thing, and um and it's like just taking like a singer-songwriter type song of something that I would write, and then to add all of those layers behind it to make it something so much more is is really cool to see from start to finish. And when you hear it, you're like, Yeah, I want to do, I want to keep on doing that.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

That's yeah, I'll I'll give an example. I mean, I was uh of course, I I I thought about my stuff for so long and demoed my stuff out enough that like like Manel says, I kind of had demo itis, and I was I was really kind of locked into to my demos. I liked them, and and some of my arrangements did make it onto this record. I like them, they're great, but Dan stuff to me that felt like that was just like you know, fertile territory. I was so excited to arrange Dan songs, and you know, the the thought that I could have some studio wizardry to to you know to to get his songs arranged the way that I was hearing them in my head, you know, was so exciting. Like for example, Out West was one that that we wrote for the album. And uh, you know, like Dan said, he was, you know, out out on the west coast somewhere, you know, when he was writing it, and I'm in Florida and he's sending me demos. And, you know, the Dan's, you know, most of his songs tend to be, you know, singer-songwriter-ish, you know, so they're not necessarily, you know, made to be, you know, um, you know, stadium rockers for sure, you know, but but he'd send me, you know, the demos, and I was hearing something completely different than what he was hearing.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

And I was so nervous about the song because that the outwest was the actual first song that I've written after my huge hiatus from music. We we we took some of my old songs to to put on the album, and then it was our goal to write one new song for the album, and Outwest was mine.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

And I said to Dan, I said, Oh my gosh, this is the single, this is the big rock single. And he was like, What? No, it's not. It's like a love ballad or something. I said, No, it's not. So, and you know, I was I was to that point in the program. I had already um I'd already finished a few songs, you know. So I had, I had, you know, uh uh, you know, training wheels were, you know, maybe not off, but I didn't need them all the time. So I was able to demo out what I was hearing, you know, I was able to make, you know, w his song into kind of like this big, you know, kind of a, you know, almost a glam rock stadium, you know, room-soaked kind of thing. And uh I sent it to him and I'm so excited, Dan, don't you love this? Don't you hear it? And he'd say, Yeah, maybe a little bit. And and, you know, we keep working on it. And uh, in fact, that was the one song where I I flew to where he was, where he had a job, and uh, I brought, you know, brought my little travel interface, uh, the same two or three mics that I would might use at home, and we worked on it there. And so, you know, um, that was a chance for for me to to get him to put his part on on where I was working, and and that's where it all came together. And so, you know, from that, you know, completely different arrangements in our heads, completely different songs in our heads, but you know, I was able to, like you said, Benny, I was able to to find a way to show Dan this the sound that I was hearing, and then that then that informed him, and then he was able to finish the song, you know, in the vein that we wanted to go because I was able, you know, I wasn't just trying to explain it to him, I was able to to play it for him, he was able to hear it, and and that made all the difference having having the tools to be able to do that and and making it sound the way you want it to sound, you know. He wasn't confused as to where we were going. I was able to make it sound the way that that sound.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, I I started writing it and I felt like I had the bones of a song, and and I'm like, something's not right, something's not there. And Neil's like, I I think we got I think we got it. And I'm like, uh I don't I don't think that's that's right. I think something's wrong, man. I don't think there's a song there yet. And and he brings this to me, and I was like, Oh, that's good. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Yeah, this is this is so cool to hear. This just goes to show how important the the song itself is. I mean, it sounds kind of obvious that it's about the music and the song, but so many people when they get into recording, they focus so much on the technical stuff on on a on a kick drum sound or whatever, or how did you cue this or that? But like the most important thing is the song itself, and all the all the Time now, through all of the stuff that you were talking through right now, you were always talking about arrangement, the demos, pre-production, showing the song to Dan, and vice versa. And like, this is really what it's about. And then to make it happen technically, like that's that's important, yes, but a really good song will survive, even a mediocre production, but not the other way around. And and it just goes to show how important the songs themselves are to you. And I remember also from working with you, Neil, that a lot of your requests, like feedback requests, where it was not often, like sometimes there were technical things, but it was not that often that you were asking for specific, you know, technical stuff. It was mostly like, is this like I made the baseline this or though? The baseline is supposed to feel this or that. Do you think that's happening? Or is this thing here too loud because I really want to hear this chord or whatever? Like it was always about musical things and how you hear those and the feeling they they create. And this is really, really exciting to me. The the the other stuff is just tools to make that happen. Your focus was always on the parts, what the instruments are playing, what like how how to make how yeah, how to make certain things feel a certain way. And that is that is exactly the right way to approach it. And then sometimes you took like unconventional paths to you know to something where you just heard something, you have a great ear for that, and you just did something that might not be the norm, but it worked out. And so who cares at the end. And like that's what's what's really exciting and unique to me, especially these days in the age of AI and everything, like making unique choices and it being all about the music, yeah. That's really where it's at. And and I think that comes through when you listen to your songs. And and the stuff that you've got coming up, I don't know if we can even talk about that, but that is even to me, it's even more exciting. It's it's got it's got even better after the album.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

So yeah, absolutely. Um, so as we were finishing up the album, um, we were getting ready for the release party. So I I didn't, I you know, I wasn't recording anything or doing much writing for a few months as we were uh getting ready for the release. And as soon as the album came out, you know, that next probably the next day I was down in the studio and I'm like, okay, let's let's start, let's start, you know, the next phase.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

And yeah, we're we're really excited about it. I mean, Neil's on fire right now with with working on some stuff. And and we we've recorded a couple uh what we're calling uh like B sides or or summer releases right now, and and it's keeping us engaged for a little bit for the summer while we're not really fully into the new album yet, but but we're excited about the new album and and a big thing about that is um being making bold and intentional decisions is what I've learned from Neil and from what he's probably learned from you, Benny, through the the program. And and um I feel like I'm starting to hit uh a groove right now, getting back into um writing material and and uh taking that time off that I did and then trying to get back into it was maybe a little bit of a struggle. And now that we've been playing consistently again for for the last year, um kind of getting my stride back. And and some of the stuff that I'm working on for this new album, um, I I don't know how much Neil wants me to say either, but I it's very it's going to be different and it's going to be uh very bold. It's going to be uh a bigger sound and a different sound than what I've come up with before in the past. And I'm I'm excited about that.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah, and that's that that's the key right there, exactly, is different. And you know, let like I said, my tendency, you know, for all those years was to just record everything the same way, not try anything new. You know, I liked the material so much, I liked the song so much, you know, it just seemed like um getting too crazy might mess it up. But as Benny has, you know, taught me and and as I've seen, you know, that's the complete opposite. The the more you get uncomfortable, you know, and and it again, it stems all this works because we've put the time into the songs, we love the songs, we believe the songs, you know, we've we've we we've we've we've done the work. We're not, you know, we don't have to worry about about if we're happy with material. We know we're happy with the material. And because of that, we can we can make some you know, some different choices. We can try new things. Um, you know, I can I can deviate from the the snare sound that that I've you know that I've loved and worked on. I can I can do something different, you know, like like Benny said, we can, you know, I I I can push the limiter a little bit. I can I can do some different stuff because it's not gonna hurt. It's not gonna hurt to try. I don't have to, we don't have to be safe because we trust each other, we trust the material, and you know, all you can do is is create and and learn and you know discover new things. And and that's where we're at now. The the the the new record, you know, already the stuff we have, um, you know, it's it's we're we're trying to do what we love with the first album is make what we you know what we like to call the magical album, you know, a collection of songs that we just can't can't do without. You know, we these are these are very, very, you know, um carefully crafted songs. You know, there's we don't we don't like to think there's any you know any filler on our albums, but this is also a chance for us to allow ourselves to to to be creative and not just say, okay, well, you know, this is the chain we've always worked with. Let's just let's just stick with that. Nope. We're you know, we're uh if we were mixing engineers like Benny, we'd have templates and all that kind of stuff. But you know what? Every song, no template. I start over from scratch, I force myself to remember how to do things, and sometimes I don't remember how I did it last time, and that's fine. It means I'm doing a little bit different this time, and that's good, especially when I'm still in the learning phase. You know, I don't want to get comfortable. That's what I'm trying not to do. Let's not get comfortable. Let's let's let's live in that let's live in that danger zone a little bit. That's what we want to do. That's what we're trying to do creatively, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

Yeah, yeah, totally. And do you think I mean it was never really that comfortable for you in the in that that whole journey? I think because like you learned two different DAWs in like a year or so, and and then that was crazy. The whole yeah, then the whole drum programming thing where in the the the first reaction was kind of or the first interaction we had about this was, and I totally get it, I was the same, and most people are that are into organic music, was like there are some reservations where you're like, will this sound natural or cool, or will it sound obviously programmed, and then uh not being a drummer, but trying to think like a drummer, like all these things, but you managed to learn that. Um, you there were so many things that you've done for the first time that you had to learn, so it was it was constantly uncomfortable, I guess. Yeah, um, but but also maybe some of that like having to deal with new tools, having to try new approaches and all that, maybe that also is helpful in a way. I don't know, maybe that like forces you sometimes to just run with something even you don't fully understand it yet, but it sounds cool, so don't question it, maybe. Like I don't know. So we we tend to get really comfortable with the stuff that we know very well, and that sometimes leads to us doing the same thing over and over again where you didn't even have that option because everything was pretty much new, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

No, you're you're exactly right. And and I'm thinking back to when we first started tracking the album, you know, I had a little bit of time before before Dan came down, and you know, so I'm I'm I'm doing the the pre-production stuff, I'm I'm doing some sound treatment stuff, I'm you know, I'm I'm doing the modules on mic placement, you know, get the instruments all set up, you know, putting the work in for that, but knowing that when Dan comes down, you know, Benny's on holiday, you know, we've never done we've never done you know professional tracking before, and we are just jumping into this pool and we got no idea how to swim. And, you know, we just did it. We just just trusted the process. You know, Benny, you know, met with Benny, talked to him a few times, he said, Yeah, you got this, you know what you're doing, just just have fun, make the recordings, and you know, and we'll take we'll go with there, we'll make, we'll take the next step. And and and we did so from the very beginning, you're right. You know, like whether it was tracking or, you know, um, and there were so many sacred cows. And that's that's that's been such the value of this program is, you know, I went into this and and from the very first conversation, you know, I'm telling Benny, well, I'm I'm pretty sure that, you know, real bands do this and real bands do that, and you know, you know, this is this is real rock and roll, this isn't real rock and roll, but you know we're we're we're limited by our preconceptions. And I was so limited in the way I was thinking, and that probably limited, you know, my growth for so many years was because I was sure it had to be done a certain way. And the the drum programming is a great example of that. You know, Benny's talking about, you know, um, I get, you know, uh pick up my drum sampler I want, and I'm like, yeah, well, you know, I'll download it, but I'm certainly not gonna use a drum sampler. I'm certainly not gonna do that. You know, we're we're rock and roll. We we've got a drum kit over there. I'm sure Dan and I can figure out how to play the drums. How hard can it be? You know, and and it it's and it, but it's that mentality, you know, it's that, you know, it's it's you know, we we can do we can do it good enough. You know, the the songs are good, so the the the rest of it, you know, you can't be too precious about that. Well, you you can have that attitude, and then your records sound like mine used to, and you're at the end of the day, you're not super excited to show them to people because they're they they have limits. Yeah, you you can't, I I can't do it all myself. I can't. And so, you know, uh that that first song that I programmed the drums for, that may have been the most fun I've had in my entire life. I mean, like, like I love programming drums, I absolutely love it. And you know, and and I'm very proud of the drums on our record. I love them. And and unfortunately, now, you know, cat's out of the bag, it's not a real drummer.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

You've got like a natural talent for programming drums and arranging drum parts and even putting it together.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

You do for not being a drummer, especially, but not even that. Like, even if like nobody wouldn't know that you're not a drummer, like really, that's sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

But but that that goes to the comfort thing. Okay, so now for this next record, you know, so now we're you know, we're getting our lives set together. So we've we've got a drummer. And you know, as much as I, you know, I I still want to, you know, be a Go Tom. Yeah, go Tom. So as much as I want to be a part of the drums, and I'll still probably demo out all the program the drums. I really want to track live drums for the next album, you know. So it's I love programming drums, it'd be real easy for me to program them all. I would enjoy doing it, but let's let's do something different. Let's bring Tom in. You know, he's a great drummer, he's happy to you know hear my vision, but he's also a real drummer. So, you know, turn him loose. You know, it's like Benny says, you know, focus on your strengths and let other people focus on their strengths, and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Yeah, I got good experiences with drummers called Tom, by the way. So that's incredible. Shout out to Thomas as well. No, but like um uh yeah, I was about to say I I wouldn't be surprised if you if the next time you you actually recorded real drums, and there you said it. So it doesn't mean that you have to stay with that forever, but it was a great entry thing for you to get into this to finally finish a record to learn so much about it. And I honestly I'm 100% sure that you spending so much time with like drum sounds, uh picking the samples, programming, and all that, yeah, that will that has made you a better engineer overall, and that will absolutely help you with recording real drums when you get to it. Like, definitely. This is definitely helpful and the right way and uh to go about it in your situation, and doesn't mean you have to stick with that forever. Now, next time it's gonna be real drums. So that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, no, no, you're absolutely right. In fact, I was listening to one of your guys' uh episodes the other day, and and you were talking about um how you're dealing with some drop drum problems. And I was, you know, I was thinking, well, in my sampler, I would do this, and then here's how I would change the mics, and that's probably what you could really do. And that that was the path that you were talking about going. So, yeah, it's helping me understand, you know, when I do when we do track, I'm not gonna be lost. I'm gonna say, okay, I know where these mics should go. I know what these mics do, and I know what they can sound like. So that's that's gonna be so helpful. So help me after that. And I'll uh in addition to the drum programming, I'll also say, like, um, you know, pitch correction. That was another, another really serious bias I had. And, you know, um uh for all for all the strengths that I'll love to tell you about that I have, my vocal progress is is definitely not not one of it. And that so that's always been something I've been very self-conscious of. And that was, you know, uh a big, you know, sticking point for my little recordings. You know, I mean, I'm in the ballpark for sure, but that was not that I didn't want to be in the ballpark. I wanted to have great sounding vocals. And um, you know, making this record, I was able to get my vocals to sound the way that, you know, they've that I've always wanted them to sound, you know, and and sure, yeah. Did I did I have to pitch correct uh a little bit more than than Dan had to? Yeah, I did, but that that's okay. The end product is fantastic. It's it's my performance, it's my tone, it's my sound, and and it's it's it it's the vision that I want other people to have of my song, and it's the sound I want other people to hear. And that that that's that's priceless. That's so important that you know people are finally hearing the song the way that I'm hearing it. And it's the tools, it's the technology, you know. That's that that that is that is a very important part of the game. And I I had to get over those biases real quick, and I'm glad I did.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

And and Neils and vocal lessons now. And that's so that's gonna get stronger.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

That's gonna get it's gonna get a lot better. And that Dan's right, and you know, that is just hearing like you know where I can get, that's motivating me now to want to get there for the live performance, you know. So, you know, yeah, if we were Steely Dan, maybe I wouldn't worry about it, but we want to get out there, you know. We wanna, you know, we wanna uh you know lug our gear around and and sing this, sing this stuff for people. And and I I want to be proud to do that. So yeah, it's motivated me to you know to change a lot.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

So yeah, totally. It's like Manel, I'm gonna I'm gonna get to you in a second. I saw that you had a question there for a while. Um the what I wanted to say about the pitch thing though is very uh interesting too. So, first of all, thank you for being so open about all these things because they're almost everybody is doing it. Some people pretend they they're not, but they most of them are. And then there's some purists who never do it, but they would be better off doing it. And then there's the very, very rare case where it's okay without any editing or whatsoever. But at the end of the day, who cares? What matters is what comes out of the speakers. And if it's good without editing, awesome. If it's good with editing, awesome. Doesn't really matter. And what I noticed in your journey was that it's this, it's a very typical thing that also happened to you. And I don't know if you agree, but in the beginning, you didn't do enough, so it was a little bit there was things out of tune here and there, like obviously distracting, sort of. Then you went on a couple of spots or in a couple of cases, you went a little too far where it sounded like too obviously tuned. And now you're landed in this kind of sweet spot where also in the new material, there are still some imperfections in there. It's not that everything is like totally quantized and and on point, like not at all. Yeah, I think there are some audible things in there where it's like a little flat or like not really spot on, but it sounds and feels really cool, so you there's no need to touch it. And you had to find that sweet spot, I guess. Like it's it's for many people, it's it's from going from having it not good enough to overdoing it a little bit, and then finding that spot where you might need a little help because it feels great, but it it's a little sharper flat, and then knowing also when to leave those imperfections in because they just sound cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

So no, you're you're exactly right. Um, and it's like you say, everything's a balance, you know, it's about sounding natural if you want to sound natural, and that that just takes time and practice. And and you know, um I know a professional mixer like you, Benny, you can you can sit down and mix a song all in one session. But you know, for me, I might tune the vocals and it sounds good, but because I again I I hear the song and I'm so excited by it, but if I give it a few listens in a couple days later, I'm able to be more objective and say, Oh, you know what? Obviously, I still really like the song, but I am pretty flat here and I'm able to be more objective about the stuff that needs work. Just got to give it a little time for the magic to wear off, and then I can be more critical about it.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Yeah, I would go through and and um like uh cut breaths and stuff from from tracks. And uh I the one of the last ones I was working on, Neil was actually watching me do it, and he he saw me cutting every single every single breath out of there. And he's like, hey, hey, just play the song and whatever ones that you can like hear like overbearingly, just just cut those ones. You don't need to cut everything. And so I'm like, okay, okay. And so I I was realizing that quickly, and and I I haven't gotten into like um pitch correcting uh a ton of vocals uh yet. I've watched Neil do it, but I could imagine like if something's a little flat or a little sharp, uh may maybe it's fine to just leave it and and and trust trust your ears first and then yeah, but if the if something's way off, those are the ones that you're probably gonna want to fix and and adjust to to get it sounding better. Um, but in the long run, it's gonna be like a a feel of the emotion of the song, pretty much is what I'm guessing. And and I I think that's what we're trying to have come through the final mixes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

And I would like to take this opportunity to publicly apologize to Dan. There was one song we finished before I even uh decided to even touch pitch correction. So he there was one song he didn't get any. I'm not gonna say which one. You can't tell because it's so awesome. But anyway, I'm sorry about that, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

That's uh it's it's actually fine, it's good. Um and I I I'll say it okay. It's October. Okay, it's the second song of Life First Limb. Um you couldn't tell. He's such a good singer. It's it's fine, it's good. It's it's great, it's great. We we were in the learning process of recording our first full-length album. I I can't complain. And Neil brought me down to start tracking, and all my trust was in him at this point because it'd just been him working with you guys, and and I just knew that he had gotten onto something that that we were about to have a lot of fun with. And for October to be no pitch correction, I think it came out pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a learning process, and like there's nothing wrong with using no pitch correction. There's also nothing wrong with correcting every single note, it's totally an artistic choice and personal preference, and depends on the quality of the performance. That's what I'm always trying to say. Like, people like to be so black and white with this stuff, but I just don't like that. Like I I love records that haven't used any of those tools, and I also love records that have been heavily edited. I I don't really care as long as the record feels great and sounds great. That's that's what I always hope that people understand this: that it's not about you know one or the other. It's not binary, there's like in-betweens, and it totally depends. And this is the beautiful thing about it. And the only thing I think that is is not really helpful at all is like when you just edit things with your eyes instead of listening to it. Exactly. If you just you know that might be a good practice to develop your ear, but at some point you gotta just listen and only touch the stuff that bothers you, like you just explained to Ann and Neil. So yeah. So, Manel, what was the thing that you were trying to say 35 minutes ago?

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Uh, first of all, I need to say that I listened to October. That's the name of the song, right? Yeah. October. Yes. I listened to it today while working out at the gym before the recording of this podcast, and I didn't notice anything weird.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

So that's great to hear. I love that. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah, that's that's that's a good gym song. October will get you pumped up for sure.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

And uh my question is actually very related to what we've been what what what you've been talking about for for the last minutes. And it seems like uh you've been breaking a lot of like mental rules while you know learning with Benedict. So my question is um from the very first conversation that you had with Benedict right before starting uh the program, uh you know what things did you think you needed to change at that point versus what uh you discovered along the way? Like what what uh things did you discover that you didn't know before?

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yeah. No, that that's a great question, Manel. And um I thought for sure that I was gonna have to um, you know, get better instruments. I thought for sure I was going to have to, you know, um maybe even get a different recording space, you know, I was gonna have to get a better recording interface, you know. I I I thought for sure, you know, and and you know, you know, so many crazy plugins. I I just I thought that to get from where I was to where I wanted to be, it was going to have to just be a lot of big extreme changes. You know, I I thought for sure there was just like, you know, some some really big things I was missing, you know, like um, you know, just just stuff that maybe I didn't even know existed.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Well, yeah, we were we were so at a at a wall that we were me and Neil discussed the idea of spending hundreds of dollars an hour to go into a local studio just to just to see what they would have to say to us. There I there's so many things that we could say maybe we should change, but we just didn't we didn't know anymore.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Yeah. But in reality, I mean we made the record with all the same instruments, all the same microphones, and you know, a few hundred bucks of software. That's you know, that and and and not even stuff that we necessarily needed. I could have, you know, I I could have got similar results probably with with with not even, you know, um necessarily all you know all of the the plugins and stuff that I bought. I just enjoyed it so much and wanted to try different stuff and you know wanted to to make that investment. But um, you know what the the the secret to getting the results that we wanted, you know, was was was not was not just um you know upgrading gear, you know, um getting fancy. That wasn't it, you know. It was It was obviously in in in understanding w how the sounds work, why the sounds weren't sounding the way that they were sounding. You know, um, the importance of uh performance, the importance of practice. That was that was another one of those sacred cows I had was, you know, I mean, come on, Neil Young, tonight's the night. You know, I don't even think the band knew those songs before they got to the studio. That's rock and roll. I don't need to practice. Dan doesn't need to practice. We're gonna stumble down to the studio, you know, we're gonna flip a few switches and we're we're gonna tear the shit up, you know. Like that was that was my, you know, philosophy about how good records got made. And, you know, tonight's the night. Sure, it's a great record, but you know, it it's rough. It it's it it sounds rough. And and you know, that's not what you want everything to sound like. You know, perf practicing is a great idea. Knowing your material is really good, being comfortable with it all is really good. Then you can be loose because you know the material so much that you're, you know, and I mean, apologies to Neil Young, the dude knew his stuff backwards and forwards. I he he he can sound loose because he's a pro. And that was what I I wasn't approaching it professionally. I was thinking, you know, just you know, winging it is is good enough. And that's no, that's not the case. We we gotta get our gotta get our gear, you know, the gear that we have, we just gotta take good care of it. Um, you know, the the the recordings we're gonna make, we gotta make good ones, you know, we gotta be got to be very prudent about about the work that we put into it. The pre-production plays a big difference. And then of course, on the mixing side of it, you know, I thought it was gonna be all this, you know, and that's that's where I think a lot of people get stuck, you know. Okay, I'm I'm learning how to use a compressor. So, you know, it's uh I've really got to hear all these, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna turn things, gonna push things until I hear changes, and and it's so easy to go too far. And you don't realize that, you know, mixing is is a balance, it's an additive game. You know, there's there's you're you're summing and you know, um downstream effects upstream and all this kind of stuff, and and you know, and and I I didn't think of it as a very subtle thing. I always thought that it would be very extreme. You would you would crank a few knobs and you would go from you know from zero to hero, and that's not what it is. You know, it's it's it's it's a process, it's very nuanced, you know. A lot of a lot of things that you know your your the untrained ear can't even really understand is going to you know eventually result in in a big change at the end, but it's it's it's it's it's a lot of little steps. And and that's a good question, Manel, because you know how I thought mixing and recording a record was going to go was completely different from how it actually went, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

And I was listening to one of your guys' episodes just recently, and um I I think Manel and you were talking about um vocal warm-ups and and exercises. Uh Benny, you said something about how you played a a couple shows on tour and you had lost your voice just like immediately into it.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

And and uh I always I always preach it on the podcast that I never do it when I do backing vocals and I just blow my voice up every time.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah. And so that's something that we learned too is to to be be warmed up, be practiced, because uh if if you come into the studio and you want to put a vocal track down, uh it might sound good, but if you if you just put a little bit of warm-up into it and practice into it, you're gonna get a better take. Um, I mean, not not overdoing it, but like just so and and like being practiced up on guitar. Like I always thought I could come into the studio and I could just lay down my guitar track. I haven't played it in 10 days, but I'm gonna but I'm gonna get in the studio and I'll just be able to put it down. And no, it will go so much more smooth if you're just practiced up on the song that you're gonna be that you're gonna be working on, especially for live performances too. I mean, just the the practice, practice, practice, and and staying warmed up and everything will go a lot, a lot better. And uh that's just something we never uh really thought was necessary before. We thought we could just totally randomly get in there and do it, and and it would be so awesome.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

And yeah, but but you had but you had the the you were self-aware, you know, enough and like you had the humility to just yeah, you realize that we have we need to practice. We're not perfect yet, we're not pros. And like that's the the biggest problem with that whole thing is that yes, there are some unicorns, some outliers who just seem to be able to do everything without practicing or whatever. But first of all, many of these bigger artists, especially back in the day where budgets were huge, they had the luxury of being able to spend months at a studio just trying shit or practicing there, doing pre-production there and all that. Like, that is not a luxury that most people have anymore. And like we have it in our home studios, kinda, so we can use it there, but like if you go to a studio unprepared, for example, that rarely works out. Like, those people had the luxury of of having a lot of time and a big budget, and then also we cannot forget it it used to be a privilege to be to even be able to record proper records. So the people that were able to do this were really, really good, they were the best of the best. So, and and it's it's kind of I'm all for being confident in all that, and and you guys definitely got great talent, and and Manel and I are talented too in all that, but I I would not think of myself as being one of those unicorns that are just so incredibly talented that I don't need to put in any work, and I I don't like to think that just because it it worked for this one exceptional artist that I can do the same. Most of us need to put in a little more work, and for most of us, it's also not the thing that we're doing 24-7, like they don't do anything else, right? And so it this is kind of the disconnect sometimes where people think they can do it also like a certain way, not realizing that that this one person has spent 10,000 hours and that person might have spent a hundred hours, and maybe there's also a big talent difference and like all these things. So, and so yeah, you're totally right. For most people, it just means practicing, and and even in the best and the best of the best, even today, like if you look at how they spent their time, they are usually really hard workers. Like most people in bands, in successful bands, they they practice a whole lot, it's their job. So I totally agree, totally. No, yeah, so but yeah, I think I think the whole it's really impressive. Like people, when you listen to this record, it's called Um Laugh versus Limb, um, Ninny Liver. If you listen to this record and then you think, you know, uh like just listen to it and then realize that it's been a year or so. Um that that it's it's impressive, it's incredible what you've been able to do, what you've been able to pull off, and how this all came together at a in a normal home studio, um, all the big gear purchases that you thought you might have to do, you didn't really need them. It was a pretty normal setup and all that. It's incredible. It just goes to show how much work you put into it, how much you practiced, and and I'm I'm I'm really, really happy for you and really proud of the result as well. I can't wait to finally get my vinyl, by the way. It's been stuck somewhere on this planet for for weeks or months now at this point, but at some point it will arrive. Yes, sir. But I've listened to it digitally so much and and I just I just love it. And here's another challenge, by the way, for the listeners. I always, still to this day, I can't tell. Like, I have a very hard time telling like who is who when it comes to vocals between the two of you. Like, so if you listen to these songs and you can tell who's singing which songs, like hats off to you. I can't do that. I am like every single time like, is this Neil? Is this Dan? I don't know, they sound the same to me. That's also that's funny because both sound great and it works, but it's like really you have a very similar voice. And the funny thing is, your talking voice, your speaking voice is quite different. But when you sing, I have a hard time telling you a part. I don't know why. Maybe it's just me. So a little challenge for the listeners there. No, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

We to this day, there's parts that we debate about who's saying what. We we're not exactly sure. We do that too. Yeah, yeah, it's even better.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

It's true. Oh man, that's so awesome. Yeah, um, there's one band we need to talk about, um, Neil, or maybe Dan as well. I don't know. I just know it from Neil. It hasn't come up yet in this conversation that's which surprises me. Uh, in the beginning, we talked a lot about a band called Sloan and the influence that they have on you. And so to tell us a little bit about that, because that was a big thing we've been talking about for a while in the first couple of months of working together.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Yeah, absolutely. And and it goes, it goes far beyond just the music. You know, they're they're my longtime favorite band. You know, I'd I'd hear their songs coming across the you know, the Canadian uh air radio waves growing up there in Toledo, Ohio. And, you know, slowly, you know, as the singles came, I realized, man, these are my people. Like that, that that was the kind of music that was, again, it was it was the songs first and the production. They were the whole package. But more than that, as you know, as I got to read more about them and learn more about them, their philosophy on how, on how they on on how they handle their band is exactly what what I want to do. Um, you know, with us. You know, they they they they view it, they they they view it as truly, you know, it's a team effort. And so, you know, there's four of them. The band, you know, they all just own a quarter of the band. That that they just split all down line. It doesn't matter, you know, who has the singles, who writes the hits, any of that stuff. You know, they they treat it all just like you know, they're they're all equals in the band. And so that's how Dan and I want to look at this too. You know, some of the songs are his, some of the songs are mine, but you know, uh I I love his songs enough. And and you know, we're we're we're we're such a team that I don't feel that he's gonna be offended if I you know want to contribute to his song or or or want to you know rearrange something. And and and similarly, I asked him to sing lead vocals on one of my songs because I just wanted to mix it up a little bit. I thought he'd sound great doing the vocal on it, you know. So that that idea of of of um of of really just you know sharing everything is is is how is how we've tried to approach this project. And uh similarly, there, you know, they're kind of throwbacks, they, you know, they have their own record label and you know they they love the the design of their albums and they do, you know, like uh they're old enough now that they can do like you know 20th anniversary box sets and stuff like that. And you know, I'm just such a you know record file when it comes to you know liner notes and jackets and all that. So, you know, then that so we had to make a vinyl, you know, like I've got so many of their records that I love, and so you know, and it's just been uh having a band like Sloan and I always call them like best kept secret. I feel like I'm live in a parallel universe where like the best band in the world nobody knows about. And you know, when they tour the states, you know, Dan and I followed them on three shows, and you know, they're filling up small clubs, but I'm like, I'm like, how are these guys not, you know, like filling up every stadium? So it's it's very nice to have, you know, to have a band like that that you can go see at a small venue and and you know, and that come out and talk to you after every show. You know, I I could my Sloan fandom knows no knows no ends. So they're great, their tone is great, their production is great, but also the philosophy, the the way that they treat their fans, the way that they treat each other. And, you know, as as Chris Murphy and the band loves to say, you know, we're probably the only band that's you know got the exact same lineup for 30 something years, you know, still making original albums. You know, they're they they they are very unusual. We talk about a unicorn, they're kind of unusual in in how they've stayed together, and and and so I really appreciate, really appreciate all of that. And and it's not just it's not just the band, it's it's their it's their extended, you know, crew and family and all that as well. Like uh the story I told before, uh, their c their collaborator, their producer, I reached out to him. He he's no idea who I am, just some kid asking for some help. And and he wrote me back and listened and gave me feedback and was very helpful. I mean, and that's you know, that's just the the come the community that they've built, that they've built. You know, their merch guys are great. Um, I've you know talked to a lot of them on the road, you know, they remember me from time to time, you know. So they they they're they're very caring and and they they love what they do and and and that's what fuels it more than anything else, you know. Whether Dan and I, you know, whether we play a few shows this year or a bunch of shows this year, uh it doesn't matter. We're gonna be making records that we like, you know. We uh the fact that I'll have uh several records on my wall, I can take them out, play it. The music, you know, just the love of doing it. That's the you know, that's what keeps it going. And and and I really, I really appreciate about a band like that. You know, they they really do just do it for the music. They truly do.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

Yeah, oh man, I love that so much. And I'm not surprised because if I look at what you guys do, just the release party thing, for example, this is like also not everyone does that. Like no one does that actually. You made the vinyl, you put a lot of care into the art and all that. That's one thing. But then also this like party with that video. Like maybe you want to talk a little bit about that. I don't know, Manel. Did you actually um did you follow along with that? Like what happened there when they released the record? Uh the coaching portal. I think that was so that was so cool, man.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

It was, it was, and um it was a lot of time and effort, just like just from wrapping up the the recording and uh and the process of the whole album to go straight into this whole almost production of of a release. Um and and Neil's up day and night working on videos, and I'm trying to help as much as I can, and I'm trying to learn Cap Cut and this video editor and and help him just on very small amounts and and do what I can do. And and we put together this whole uh I mean we we were taking pictures and digitizing old photos and and and putting them into get into these videos and and yeah, we put together whole whole whole music videos for all 12 songs.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

Yeah. My my original plan was was just to do what they used to do. You finish a record, you bring a bunch of friends over, you sit in the living room, you you play it, and you just have a listening party, you know, and and uh first of all, nobody does that anymore. Uh second of all, uh nobody really just listens to albums anymore, you know. So my wife had had a had a much better idea, and I'm I'm so glad she suggested. She said, let's just rent out, you know, place downtown, you know, there's there's a great place that has a cinema. You could rent that out, you can you can play it on their speakers, and you know, she suggested and maybe just have some video that plays as well. And and as Dan described, that's exactly what we did. So, you know, we got uh 50 of our closest friends and family, and uh, you know, we uh we we had a big big listening party and and people were confused. What's a listening party? Nobody knew what it to expect, nobody knew what was going on, but that's okay. I figure they'll they'll they'll figure it out when they get there. So yeah, we we filled it up. Um, you know, we we we projected uh you know, projected the the video on on the movie screen, we had the audio, you know, Benny's awesome mix coming through the cinema speakers, and it was just magical to just sit there and I mean and just listen to Side A was great. And uh um, and my son was, you know, was the MC, so he would, you know, he he uh he guided us through the night. Um we had a you know, we had raffle, we gave away some vinyl, we had a we had a whole merch, whole merch table set up, you know. So we got to, you know, we got to do the whole rock star thing for a night. And it was it was it was such a a perfect, you know, um celebration of this project that you know was really like 20 years in the making. Like Dan and I have always wanted to to have a record that that was worthy of you know renting something out and and and just putting it on the public display for everybody. And so it was just so magical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

And and of course we've got family and friends there, and some of those those friends bring their friends and so there's some people that we we've never really uh spoke with that much, or I or like from from me being new down here in Florida, like that I've never even met, and and to be uh so vulnerable to finally put something out like that and put this huge release party on. Um, I we had people coming up and being like, that was so so good. That was that was so awesome. Uh, you guys should be so happy for yourselves. Like that, that was incredible. Uh they're saying that we're uh very professional sounding, and yeah, and it's just like wow, that that's good. It was good to hear, like it just felt it felt really good. Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

I'm so so happy of to hear this. And just for context, in case people are wondering, because you said Benny's mix, like I mixed one song of the record that was part of the program. The rest of the songs, you mix all those. But the mastering.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

I'm sorry, the the mastering, the mastery, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Yeah, yeah. I did I did the final mastering, that was something we agreed to do. So just so people know, when when you join the program, yes, we include five masters in the program that we do, just so people don't get stuck at the mastering phase and can focus on recording and mixing first, then we do the final quality control for five songs, and then Neil decided to let me master the rest of the record and do the vinyl master and all that. Yeah, um, but the mixes were all yours, except for one song that I also did as part of the program to kind of show you what uh what I've done. Um, but that's that's really all yours. So I just wanted to make that clear. But uh thank you. Yeah. But but yeah, it's it makes me so happy to hear this all about this this release party, this listening party. It's just such a good idea, and and it just the the the feeling when it all comes together, and then when you get feedback, and it's like uh I'm I'm I'm really happy for you. So it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

And it was a great to see, and you so many people helped us out with this. And that was and that's a really important thing for me to mention is you know, it was always me working on stuff or me and Dan. It was just like two of us, and and I just assumed that's how this whole project was gonna go. It was just gonna be the two of us, and I got to figure out, you know, what picture am I gonna put on the album, how am I gonna do all the stuff. But but no, I mean, I've got a buddy who's an absolute, you know, genius creative, you know, uh on every kind of artistic media there is. He was happy to, you know, to to do a lot of the art for the album. He built models for it. Um, with another buddy, they've they've got a they've got a company where they do a lot of toy photography. And, you know, so they were our art team. Um, you know, I got another buddy who's great at photography. Uh Dan and I got all dressed up in our you know, thrift store hipster clothes and he took photos of us, you know, all around, you know, so um uh guest guest people came in and and and sang on some songs when we needed other vocals. Um I wrote I wrote a three-part brass thing that, you know, Benny suggested, you know, why don't you why don't you actually try to get some some real trumpet on there? I I hired a trumpeter online, you know, all this kind of stuff. And so to see there, you know, all the people that helped out, man, this is this project is about their relationships as much as is anything else. You know, I like like Dan said, just just you know, getting, you know, people liking working with us and liking the project and and enjoying being part of of our music. I just I I never thought I always thought it would just be the two of us, you know, just you know, throwing it out there and you know, who cares? But no, a lot of a lot of people were supportive and seemed to generally enjoy it. And there was, you know, the the relationships that we've that we've met and we had along the way is fantastic. Wow. So thank you to everybody that helped out with this record. Tons of tons of people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

Thank you. Yeah, that's a team effort for sure. For sure. Yeah. So um I wanted to ask one thing, and that was how like what do you think? I mean, still, like I'm gonna start differently. So still, I think the most of what went into this record is you whether it was a team effort, yes. And we've helped with the coaching and all that, but it is you putting in the work. And so I it's like a two-part question here. The first part is um a lot of people are like a lot of people doubt that they can pull it off in the limited time they have, like they think I have the you know, family work, and then I need to learn how to record, and then I need to write the songs, and they they kind of never finish stuff, and they don't even believe that they can ever finish stuff. So I'm wondering like, how did you how did you pull that off? Because you have a family, you are a granddad, even, and then you have a job, and and you don't even live in the same city and all that, and like you still pull it off. And not only that, you are one of the most active people in the program. So, just for to for people to understand, at any time we have around 50 people in the program. Most of those never show up to like group calls, they just have questions here and there, one-on-one. Yeah, and I shouldn't say most of those, they're like half of them. The other half shows up, but not always. Neil was there pretty much always, not on every single call, but most of them. Yeah, you show up to the group calls, that's also part of the reason why you make progress because you're always asking questions, you're implementing, you you're taking in the knowledge, you learn, you keep learning and all that, and and you you're also active one-on-one, but like you really used that resource, which is exactly what we want people to do. Yes, and so I'm wondering how how do you pull it off? And and was that difficult to manage when it comes to time and management on your end? And like, yeah, how how did you do that? And what would you say to people who are doubting that they can that they can like make it work in their life?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

It's it's hard to believe you know, it looking back on it, it's hard to believe that that I was able to do that. No, you're right, but um somehow I was able to do all that, and you know, I didn't, you know, my my kids didn't grow up without me, you know, uh, my my wife didn't say where have you been for the last year. I mean, I I was able to, you know, to be to be disciplined enough to say, okay, you know, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna treat this like I'm you know uh uncovering a figure from the marble. I'm gonna go down to the studio, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put an hour in tonight. You know, I might not walk out of there with something that's worth bouncing down and listening to in the car tomorrow, but I'm gonna go down there, I'm gonna fire things up, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work. I'm gonna I'm gonna work for an hour tonight. I've got the time. And, you know, it was just it was a matter of being disciplined enough. And you talk about the coaching calls. Um, it it I wasn't I wasn't as good about them at first, but once I once I decided, you know what, that that is a a resource that I have available to me and I'm not taking advantage of it enough, you know, and and and the fire of wanting to make the album, you know, was was the motivation for me to say, you know, I need to be on these calls more. I need to be listening, I need to be talking, I need to be, you know, meeting these people, and and you know, this is this is my community, my my recording community. And once I had kind of made that commitment, then, you know, it's like anything else. I mean, you always want it to be fun. You know, you don't want, you don't want your hobby to to become work and all that. But as with anything, you sometimes it's you just got to grind it out. And so, you know, I'd, you know, I'd help get the kids to bed. You know, my wife would say, go ahead, you know, go down the studio. And I would, rather than, you know, catch up on a show or something, I go down, I'd work for an hour or two. And eventually you get to the point where, you know, you're making such progress and you know you don't feel like you're treading water anymore. You're really enjoying what you're doing and you're making progress and you're getting tangible results and you're realizing, okay, wow, this this is really fun. And then you know at that point, you know, the fire kind of takes over and you know you look forward to going down and you know it it at first though it is, it is, it is a, it is a lot, it is a you do have to decide. You're gonna just, you know, give it a try and see if you can figure it out. But but uh yeah I was able to uh you know whether I got up an hour early in the morning or whether I put an hour or two in at night and then um you know and then whenever whenever I had big chunks of time you know I would I would be down in the studio and I'd I'd be working. So yeah it was a lot of work but I was I was able to you know to to do it around a normal life. So I would I would encourage anybody out there if you you know if if you well I don't really have the time or whatever. No you do you definitely do you know the it it in if you want to get it done you'll get it done. That's that's you know and and the program like Benny's and specifically Benny's I mean if if you want to get it done you can get it done. It is it is it is not too tall of an ask. It's not it is not too much of a burden for for just your average guy like me who you know has a job and a family and I still made a record you can do it you can definitely do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Yeah Neil's uh thank you saying that he yeah he's a he's a go getter um I I'd I'd be working all over the states and and uh I would jump on zoom meetings with Neil and and I'd watch him work and I I'd be like well he's putting time in I I need to be putting time in too and I'd I'd sit there I'd watch him edit I'd I'd try to learn what he's doing while he's showing it to me in real time and and uh he Neil was my motivator uh to to keep on working on stuff too I could easily just uh procrastinate and and and uh fall short of of what we need to do sometimes but I I see him heading down to the studio and I'm like all right I'm right behind you I'm I'm coming down there and and uh he's he's definitely he's he he's driven he's driven and I love it though I love it so much yeah that's the thing it's a matter of priorities and loving it and it is yeah it is yeah haven't rode as many roller coasters this year but that's okay I'm making a lot of music which I enjoy more yeah that's okay yeah and also shout out to your wife I don't know her but it's so important or it's it's maybe not necessary but super helpful to have a supportive partner because you mentioned a couple times in this conversation now already that she says like you know go down there do your thing and and I remember even on our first conversations that the phone call after the initial Zoom call you told me that your wife said like something like if you're not gonna do this you're gonna regret it and like this is the chance like do it go all in use it make the most of it you you want to make this record and like having that kind of support from your partner is so like it's invaluable.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:33

It's invaluable she may have even said if you don't sign up for it I'm gonna sign you up for it. She may have even even said that yeah she was so supportive all all along the way yeah so thank you Lindsay I love you thank you yeah oh it's important and she's and she's sang on the record too she there's one song that you know that that I wrote you know early when we first started talking and she was like I want to sing on that song so she came down she learned the harmony parts and she's on the record with me. So can't beat that I mean that's a dream right there.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:01

Man yeah ah it's so cool so cool yeah and uh one more question that I had the second part of this or um yeah the second question I had in mind was what do you think was the big like you did all of the things pretty much that that we make available in the through the program you used all of it you did the the the mix and the mix walkthrough you did the one-on-one coaching you did the the the group coaching calls and all that what was the what did you think do you think was the the most helpful thing looking back now or like maybe there's one thing in particular that you remember that was a big aha moment or something. I don't know I don't know whatever whatever it's just always very interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

You know I thought for sure it was going to be the one-on-one I thought the secret was going to be okay Benny's gonna show me how to do this you know I I'm I'm gonna get stuck and I'm gonna talk to Benny and then like there's there's like these 10 magic buttons I didn't know about and he's gonna have to show them to me. And and we certainly did plenty of one-on-ones and they were invaluable but it got to the point where you know I needed to just put in the work and anywhere that I got stuck that was where a quick note to Benny and and a lot of times just you know I get stuck on a Monday good news Tuesday is a coaching call. I jump on I say you know and I mean and sometimes I'd I'd say you know I'd I'd if nobody else really had anything I'd say well I'm stuck on a song you know could could we listen to something and Benny would say yeah sure and he'd pull it up right there. So Monday I'm stuck Tuesday we're talking about in the group setting not only do I get Benny's feedback but other you know other other people on the call also you know they've also got great things to say and you know that got me to the point where I could then keep working. So you know um uh really just um having having having access to knowing that if you get stuck you're able to get past it that's that that's invaluable because like Benny said I I did do the work you know like it was me uh on the DAW you know with the music with the monitors you know spending the time living living in the music and and then that's where it happened at and then you know having somebody like like like Benny to to keep it moving if you got stuck and to fill in the gaps when you needed them that's where the program's invaluable you know he Benny's not going to do all the work for you unless you hire him to do it. But there was no point at which you know uh I I I wasn't making progress if I wanted to make progress I had all the resources available I had playbooks which I mean so many times I wanted to you know text Benny or whatever I was like no there there's a whole compression playbook go back through it I know you don't remember what attack and release any of that does that's okay watch it again you know and and and that's the beauty of it is you know if if if if you're willing to you know if you're willing to avail yourself of it and again it doesn't take didn't take my whole day you know but I I put the time in where I needed to put it in being efficient about it you know that it was all there. Yeah it was all there.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

Yeah yeah oh man thank you so much for saying that and that's exactly the right attitude that's why that's why we had success with it and made that made this record for sure. And also not being afraid to ask questions you know where you would sometimes say something like I this might be a stupid question but here we go and I'm like no there's no stupid questions just fire away you know and it's like that combination of being able to figure things out your yourself with the resources we give you being on the group calls using those things and then not being afraid to ask questions I think that's what got you there.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

But um yeah uh that's that's really cool cool to hear all of that sometimes not being afraid to ask like three questions on the same coaching call which you know is nobody else can ask another question.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:34

I mean you know sometimes you exactly you you just ask and yeah totally man so so excited to hear all of that Manel what are what are your thoughts you haven't said anything in this conversation pretty much except for one question.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

I don't know if you followed the progress uh as well uh you do you host some of the group calls you have conversations with Neil so I'm not sure if you have any any thoughts as well questions before we wrap this up uh I have some thoughts not many questions but the main like thought that I have is that I think it's really cool and interesting to see how the program can transform people's lives you know because like sometimes you know we talk about this and it I can feel like we talk about this a little bit lightly in a way like because you guys have spent a lot of time to make this happen and you end up with something you are proud of. But I mean proud of like for real you know that in twenty years time you're gonna see your old vinyl there. You're gonna pick it up and you're gonna remember all this effort, the hours you put into it the release party with it and and that's something that's so so so satisfying you know in in in an era where we can you know upload our music everywhere to Spotify and all that you realize that it means so much more to do things like physically you know with people to have something that you can bump into one day you know unexpectedly at your home or whatever and remember everything you did. So yeah it's it's touching to me to like see that other people also went through the same process that I went through because like I was also part of the program and I have the same feeling that now I'm gonna release my book album whatever that I created also mastered by Benedict. And I know that that is something that in 20 years I'm gonna find in my home and I'm gonna pick it up and I'm gonna be yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

That's great. Thank thank you for saying that Manel I really appreciate that. And and no thank you. Yeah one last little point and and you you're you're right that just the the the the the feelings that I have from it I mean it's it's not unusual for me to be doing something at work or at home and then you know just remember oh yeah I'm making a record right now. Oh yeah our our record came out you know just to remember that this is in my life now just fills me with like you know just little you know pings of joy a lot of you know it's it's it's really kind of just transformed you know my it sounds silly but it kind of has transformed my life you know like I make I make music I make records I you know that's you know it's not my identity but it is it is a part of how I express myself and and I love having that as part of who I am now it's it's it's kind of inventive I mean I love it. So yeah thanks for thanks for mentioning that Manal that's that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:56

It's true. I mean I took a whole new job and and moved uh thousands of miles and I'm here with Neil full time now this has been no no no pressure I I it's been it's just been totally life changing for me and and but in a in great ways yeah um to to be making music with with my family and and our friends and and the band and to and to spend time with everybody and and to really appreciate the things that we we've done in this album release and to have that tangible vinyl like you're saying and to see it and be like we we did this. Yeah that's that's it's really cool and and and it'll never go away forever. We've got it yeah and then these relationships that we build with absolutely with our bandmates and and me and Neil the over the years it's just been it's been really good. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:50

Cool I think that you know the the best thing of all of this is that everything you mentioned it has nothing to do with it being successful commercially. Yes you know it's all about making it the artistic process of making it and yes it's about thinking that you know this is not the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:10

This is just a part of your path to nowhere and to like artistic development and yes amazing yeah exactly cool yeah awesome let's do a really quick rapid fire round where I just throw some questions at you and you answer as quickly as possible as short as possible and then we wrap it up. Okay. So and whoever wants to answer like you those questions are for both of you whoever wants to go first just answers it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

Favorite part of making a record oh man um just seeing um what what you started with and and where it can go and I mean of course I my main instrument's guitar so uh when we're making a record any time that I can get to to play some guitar tracks and record some guitar tracks that's that's probably one of my favorite parts of it um I'm trying to get more into the the mixing and editing and and all that stuff on the software side of things and hopefully I'll really enjoy starting to do that. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

Yeah har hardest part about making a record I would say the last 10% of a song when we're you're just about there you really really like it but do I do I do a little more do I not do a little more am I done that that that's the hardest part because I want to be done and and I'm forcing my I force myself to put a a little bit more time into it. That's the hardest part I just want to be done all right all right um favorite plug-in recently I have been uh messing with um it's a sound toys um delay um it's not Echo Boy it's the other one oh and I just looked it up before this because I thought you might ask that ah uh anyway it's a sound toys product and uh and it's it's it's it's meant to be like a like a lo-fi delay and it's sounding so good on on our on our vocals right now so I'm I'm using the heck out of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:08

Cool. Which one would it be? Yeah you probably got it right there.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

I'll know it as soon as I hear it I did look it up. I need to figure this out real quick what is it what could it be um but not the space blender right that's a weaver yes there's the echo boy and then there is it's yellow the crystallizer nope it's not crystallizer it's it's yellow ah the ah I know that the primal tap primal tap that's it primal tap yeah I was such an Echo Boy fan and you know and and and some other ones too to mix it up but I accidentally found primal tap and it's killer.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:41

Great yeah awesome love it favorite studio snack oh man um Red Bull yeah we really don't eat but but we do a lot of yeah Red Bull and then if it's evening session we'll bring a six pack down you know whatever whatever's buy one get one and we'll uh finish up yeah I love that and uh the next one go no no there's one more before the last one um the this is not really uh one that other people could answer it's but very specific to you on the last song or demo that I heard of you and we might have to cut this out if we can say the title yet but I'm gonna say it um just to know what I'm talking about. It's called I'm on the other side of the song I think is the title. Yep. So the last thing I've heard of you that distortion on that song what did you use there as a saturation distortion tool? I don't know if it's multiple things or one but I love love love the vibe of this so what did you do to get that distortion?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:32

Yeah it's multiple things um it's decapitator on the drum bus. So that's what's driving some of the distortion there. And then um on the vocal chain um I think it I think it might also be decapitator. Yeah there might be another a couple things on it too but decapitator that's kind of my go-to because you don't you don't have to do much you know you can just you can blend a it's just send a little bit to it and it'll it'll it'll give you that edge that you need. So yeah it's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:59

Yeah any specific mode on it like or do you remember what you used?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:04

I'll have to look yeah I don't remember it doesn't matter okay yeah and instead of uh uh correct me if I'm wrong but instead of uh DI you're you're using the Marshall yeah so yeah so for the guitar I did track the guitar live which and then of course you know I put some of the ampeg and and I did put a cap sim um on it as well but it's not coming from clean di it's coming from from that Marshall so it's got a nice nice live you know nice real sound to begin with which you know sounds so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:31

Yeah cool awesome and then the final one is going to both of you so both of you would need to answer this and this is something I want to bring back Malcolm and I started this back in the day but have stopped at some point but I need to bring this back uh we need to just collect numbers on this to collect the data and figure it out once and for all so pizza or burger pizza. Yeah I'd say pizza okay cool yeah let's see where that goes like after a hundred episodes or so it's still undecided here. All right cool so anything else you want people to you want to tell people like first of all where can where can people find you? Where should we send them what should we put in the show notes?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:10

Yep go to ninnyliver.com and right there on our splash page is a link out to the band camp. So um all the vinyl options are there t-shirts are there all of our merch and everything and then also links to we're on all the streamers and everything's right there. So there's a bunch of different pages for you to click around and uh enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:26

I mentioned the uh I would shout out my uh buddy Joe Hartley uh he was a major influence to me starting a singing songwriting and uh he's doing really well with his band Twin Citizen uh out of uh Minneapolis Minnesota um so I wanted to mention that too but yeah you can find us on all major streaming platforms ninny liver all one word lowercase did you say bandcamp to sound sound cloud yeah yeah bandcamp yeah yeah that's where our store's at yeah okay cool yeah cool and on the socials probably as well right for sure yeah Facebook Instagram yeah definitely cool awesome and then you mentioned putting a band together like finding a drummer and playing live is that happening anytime soon can people check out tour dates or anything yet or where can people see you live and when?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:14

Yeah hopefully soon we have played um as a full band uh at an open mic um in Gainesville and it was super fun it was great uh since then we've been changing the lineup a little bit and so we're we're in the process of getting back to that point and we're about three quarters of the way of getting the set done that we want to start taking around. So uh yep there's a there's a there's a nice nice tab on our website for tour and it says coming soon. So we'll uh we'll definitely put those put those dates on there once they come. Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:42

Yeah everyone check that out we put it in the show notes so if you're watching this on YouTube it's gonna be below in the description um and on the so on the podcast platforms you're gonna see in the show notes and there's always a show notes page for every episode so if you go to theselfrecordingband dot com slash and then the number of the episode it will take you to that page so in this case the selfrecordingband dot com slash three one one and there you'll have all the all the links we just mentioned everything um will be right there and if you want to check out the rest of our more than 300 episodes just go to the self recordingband dot com slash podcast and there's the entire archive. So yeah um thank you so much for taking the time to do this this was a it was a long one and a fun one and uh I am so happy for you so stoked about this whole collaboration and uh I just yeah I can't wait to see what's coming I can't wait to see live footage and whatnot and so and I can't wait for my vinyl to arrive finally right but uh yeah thank you so much really um thank you thank you Benny thank you thank you Manel we we love you yeah we love you guys and we love the program and we just thank you so much thanks Manel thanks Benny perfect all right and thank you for listening we'll talk to you next week bye bye everyone goodbye