על-חלל
על-חלל
פרק 68 - StarLab
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In this Episode I had a conversation with Mattia Pianorsi, the Managing Director of Voyager Technologies Europe for the 2026 Israel Space Week. We chatted about his career, Voyager's vision and goals towards the new space station era, and more.
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Welcome to another episode of Al Chalal, the podcast where we bridge the gap between earthbound industry and the final frontier. I'm your host, Eyal Ben Zaev, and today we are diving deep into the commercialization of low Earth orbit and the future of European-led space infrastructure. Joining us from Turin, Italy is Mattia Pianosi. Did I pronounce that correctly? Correct. Oh man. The managing director of Voyager Technologies Europe. Mattia is visiting Israel as part of the Israeli Space Week 2026. It's a great uh honor having you with us, Mattia. Welcome to Israel.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much. It's my honor to be here. Is it your first time here? It is my first time actually in Israel, and I am astonished. The country is beautiful, and Tel Aviv, even better, really. I found a very warm welcome from everybody here.
SPEAKER_02Yes, well, I'm not objective, but I agree with you. It's an amazing country, and Tel Aviv is one of the best uh cities ever. Um, let's hear a little bit of uh our opening music and then launch into space. After working for many years as a space economy researcher and as an assistant professor teaching project finance and investment banking. Was space something that you uh were interested in from a young age, or you know, did it come as when you were older?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh it is a little bit strange. When I was young, I used to watch on TV Star Trek, the original series. So I was amazed by the exploration, right? So Star Trek is really focused on exploration, finding new civilization, new form of life. So I got interested in space. Not only this, actually, when I stand at the sky during the night, I really wonder what is up there, if there are someone else, and if we can actually get to there one day. So, yeah, I mean space is a kind of passion for me. And uh I joined actually the space sector by chance because at my university, Bocconi University Milan, back in 2018, a professor founded a research center, one of the kind at that time, called Space Economy Evolution Lab at the Bokoni School of Management. I joined the research center by chance, as I said. And actually, uh some professors at the time were kidding me, like, what are you doing? I mean, you should focus on finance, you should focus on investment banking, give lectures there. But I said, I want to take my chance here. I mean, it doesn't happen every day. So I joined the research center, and after that, I learned a lot about space, actually, because I studied really the space economy, so the economics behind space. And I have to say that it's really, really peculiar, the space sector, because it's made of not only scientific discoveries, technology, but a lot of geopolitics. And at the time I didn't get it, but after, year by year, I started realizing how much is important geopolitics in space. So, yeah, I mean, my career is a little bit strange, blended one. Um, first I was an assistant professor, researcher, uh professor of finance uh at the school of management. After I even joined the government, the Italian government, during the drugist administration. There I worked as a space economy expert. So, giving my experience for the Ministerial Council 2022, the European Space Agency Ministerial Council, the expenditure of the recovery and resilience funds from the European Commission post-COVID pandemic, and some G2B agreements where I was involved in, so it was a very great experience. And after that, I realized that maybe university in general was interesting for my career, but not so interesting, let's say, in general. I learned a lot, but I decided to go to the industry, and so I started in Voyager last year in January.
SPEAKER_02So Voyager is an American company, right? It's an American company, yes, you're right. So can you tell us a little bit about the structure of Voyager and then Voyager Technologies Europe?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, of course. So Voyager was funded recently by Mr. Dylan Taylor and Mr. Matt Kuta in 2019. The corporate started collecting space capabilities by pursuing an inorganic growth, so basically buying companies so that we could create an umbrella of competencies for operating in the space sector. Right now we have three main divisions: one is Space Solutions, where I'm working, one is national security and defense, and the other one is Star Lab. Star Lab is a joint venture between Voyager Technologies, Mitsubishi, MDA, Arbas, and other relevant players around the world to create the next the next private space station. So what we are going to see, I think, in 2029 up there.
SPEAKER_02So you're managing the European office of the American company.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00The history of the European office is the following. Before we were Nanorax, Nanorax had and has a long experience in uh microgravity research, accessing the International Space Station. We were in Europe as we commissioned to Italisalenia space the development of the Bishop Erlock, the first private asset on board the International Space Station. So, since there the company um stayed in Turin, so developing itself in Turin. In 2001, if I'm not wrong, we were acquired by Voyager, so we became a Voyager company, and right now we have Voyager Technologies Europe. And we are taking care of the European market, um, offering mission management services for microgravity research. So basically, we bring whatever experiments on board the International Space Station for European customers, not only experiments, so scientific, let's say, experiments, but even we provide in orbit demonstration and validation activities. So think about a space company would like to test a technology in space. Uh, we provide that service on board the international space stations, and we deploy even small satellites from the spatian from the space. That's more or less the kind of activities we are doing in Europe right now.
SPEAKER_02That's from the Nanorax uh infrastructure. Yeah, right. Of course. ISS, the International Space Station, it's going to be decommissioned by 2030. They every every few years they push it back a little bit, but probably right now for around 2030. And Voyager Space is one of the companies that are leading the post-ISS era with uh with your space station, Star Lab. Uh, can you tell us a little bit more about Starlab and what the future holds for it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, of course. As I said before, uh Voyager wanted to replicate a little bit the framework of the International Space Station. So basically, we started this joint venture with other relevant companies around the world: Airbus in Europe, Mitsubishi in Japan, MDA in Canada, Palantir, an AI company in the United States, and so on. So the ambition was to, as I said, replicate uh, let's say, how the International Space Station worked in all these years. Um, and uh, yeah, the company foresees to have Star Lab in space in 2029, so quite near to the commissioning of the International Space Station. What we would like to do is transition all our customers from the International Space Station to Star Lab, so having a smooth transition in order to not stop their operations or their objectives. This is important to us. Starlab will be launched by a single launch using Starship of SpaceX, and this is, I think, unique because all the other, let's say, infrastructure that are gonna be up there will use multiple launches to assembly all the modules. We have one module almost eight meters in diameter, we can ask for astronauts, and when we have you know the transition phase, even eight astronauts per time. The Star Lab is gonna be um there for microgravity research, but and of course for astronaut seats, but we expect that aside from the space stations that are gonna be up there. This station will be the cornerstone for developing all let's say the ecosystem around them. So, if you think about in-orbit logistics, in orbit servicing and so on. So, the Leo ekonomging will be basically the new field of expansion of the space economy, and it will serve, in my opinion, uh to get to the moon in a really faster way than right now. Starbubb in addition to that, um Star Lab is a 30 years program, so it's not only a matter of few years. Star Lab is built to last at least 30 years, and this is very important. And one thing that proves our station very reliable in terms of a commercial point of view is all the investments that we are getting from, let's say, private investors all around the world. Because you have still to understand that maintaining and operating a space station costs a lot of money. So we need to be sure that our business case is reliable, solid for addressing the customers around the world. And sometimes we forget about it because we think that space is about governmental investments or governmental expenditures. This is right. So far, I would like to say that the space economy is still relying a lot on public fundings, and that's crystal clear. But our intention is to not ask for money to space agencies around the world. Of course, that will be our customers, of course, that we have payloads to have on board Star Lab and astronauts to sign up there, but we want really to create a commercial market here. And I would like to add one more thing here that could be, I think it could be important, is that Voyager is even developing the so-called science parks. So uh, right now we are building a science park in partnership with the Ohio State University in the United States, and the main goal of the science park is to create, let's say, a kind of um virtuous circle for payloads to be um sent to um Star Lab or Orbital Infrastructure in the next few years. Has these are facilities that allowed, for instance, a researcher, a PhD, a professor, even a company to get, let's say, their experiment from um kind of basic research to a full payload to be sent up there. So we will provide all the facilities or the expertise in order to facilitate the transformation from an idea into a payload to be sent up there, and this is very important. Our intention is to create a lot of science parks around the world so that we can create even a community of researchers exchanging information, exchanging you know um capabilities and knowledge. So let me say, uh lowering the silos that there are sometimes in space, and these science parks will communicate one with each other, and it I think is a cool idea. So you don't have only, let's say, an asset in orbit like Starlab, but you have even a lot of assets on Earth that will be fundamental to create a virtuous circle between the two entities. So this is why I say it is important for us not only to satisfy governmental needs uh for the future, but even the real commercial needs.
SPEAKER_02So the this uh science park is actually an area inside the spaceship and other hubs on Earth and different places, and then the scientists can do science down here on Earth and up there in space, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, correct. Correct. You will have a lot of slots for doing science on board uh of Starlap, of course. But in our experience, uh we saw that multiple universities, uh, researcher companies would like to experiment in space. But the point is that sometimes you don't they don't have capabilities. If you think about pharma companies or biotech companies, they understand maybe the effect of microgravity on the composition of the elements, right? But they do not have the skills, and that's pretty natural, you know. So the point is how we can create a connection between space and these non-space companies so that they can benefit of microgravity research, and science parks will be those infrastructure that will be actually able to facilitate this transition for non-space companies. They can do science both on Earth and in space, and maybe compare the results that they will get uh on the experiments. So it's like fueling the activities of Star Lab through the science parks. So this is a I think it's a really great business model that we are putting in place. And the point is about microgravity research, as I said before, is to find out a common language. Because you may understand that for these companies the point of RD and having the payback of the investment is very important. So despite they invest millions of dollars euros in RD projects, uh, space is still something not really understood. So we need to find a collector, we need to find a liaison between their maybe willingness to expand the activities in space, benefit benefit um using microgravity, and on the other side, providing them a kind of turncase service, right? So they just have to be worried about the experiment itself or the results they want to achieve, for all the rest, we can provide the service.
SPEAKER_02And and the the infrastructure and the service. Yeah, amazing. Um, I want to take a step back and talk about you mentioned a transition phase. Can can you elaborate a bit about that transition phase? And you said that you're gonna have four astronauts or in the transitions phase eight astronauts. So what is that transition phase?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh, so basically, um in uh normally we will host four astronauts on board Star Lab, so uh for day-to-day operations or missions that they have. But when we have to replace these four astronauts with other astronauts, so other four astronauts, there will be this kind of transitional phase where the station can host at most eight astronauts. So this is the the idea. Oh, I understand. It will be a kind of replacing, right? And uh at the time uh when the two crews will be together, we can ask at most four astronauts. Okay.
SPEAKER_02So and I I thought we're talking about some transition phase with the ISS or something like that. No. So now, so my next question would be the transition phase with the ISS. So right now you have already started doing some cooperation with the ISS. You have the Bishop Erlock up there, um, you have Nanorax infrastructure up there. Can you talk about the infrastructure that you have on the ISS right now and would be part of the uh your future space?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, right now on the ISS we have a series of of let's say devices, tools, uh, assets, both in the internal side of the ISS and the internal side. So we can provide uh, let's say, two kinds of services basically. One when the experiment is exposed to the outer space environment. So when we place the experiments in the outside of uh the International Space Station, such as the Bishop Erlock, or when you want a pressurized environment, you place the experiments inside. So we have a series of facilities that are um let's say serving all basically the kind of requests from our customers.
SPEAKER_02Black box, nanolabs, all of those?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, all of that. All of those, sorry. So can can you can you talk about them a bit? Yeah, let's say we can offer, for instance, uh the so-called MixIx, which is a tube made of silicon with two fluids that, when they are in space, they can be combined together by the astronaut. So we can see the reaction of these fluids uh in space. And this is used mostly for educational purposes, so universities but even high schools. We have the nanolab, which is a little structure where you can you can put inside an experiment normally biological experiment, you will have access to power and data transmission and temperature control. So you can offer actually an environment where the experiment can be monitored and controlled by um, let's say us first and the customer at the end.
SPEAKER_02Is that something like uh like um nanosatellite, a three U nano satellite?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it could be three U, six U on the basis of the requests of the client. We have different sizes, uh so three, six, and twelve U, if I'm not wrong, and we accommodate so the the needs of the of the customers on the basis of the experiments they have. And after we have the Nanorax expert external laboratory, the so-called NEL, which which is placed, let's say, above Bishop, the Bishop Erlock. So if you think about the bishop has uh a kind of um circle with an inside um useful useful use useful uh space for making experiments on the top, I mean all around the bishop there will be uh the nail so that you can expose the experiments to the space. Um, these are for some examples of the facilities we have up there.
SPEAKER_02And what's I mean, for those who don't know Bishop Erlock, what's the Bishop Erlock?
SPEAKER_00What's important, what's so special in it? Yeah, so the Bishop Erlock is um an airlock, so you can actually open and close it. It is pressurized or unpressurized on the basis of the request we we have. Normally, Bishop is can be used for uh deploying satellites or even deploying the trash of astronauts, so this is important as you can imagine, or moving assets around the space station. So you can place inside the bishop airlock, for instance, an experiment. Uh, the astronauts actually place the experiment within the bishop airlock. The bishop can be detached from the space from the station and can expose the experiment to the space environment, or it can be actually used to move the experiment around the space station through a robotic arm. For instance, we had recently an experiment from a customer where we had to retrieve an experiment from the outside of the space station to the inside. So we use the bishop airlock. Let's say retrieving the experiment and putting it inside the bishop with the Canada arm. Yeah. And after we revert the bishop airlock to the station, so that we pressurize the airlock, and the astronaut can retrieve the experiment and put it inside the station. So it's a kind of it can be used as a deployer, has a deployer thrash, has a place where you put experiments and that's it, or has a kind of little logistic uh in between the station.
SPEAKER_02So it's like a big tube with two doors, and you can connect it to different. Places in the ISS, open the doors, get things out. You can actually take the bishop with the Canada arm and move it on the outer sides of the ISS. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00That's a cool airlock. Yeah. It's a cool airlock, and let's say, as I said, the first one, the first private, let's say, asset on board the International Space Station. So it's cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So what's like the weirdest or strangest things that you uh uh launch through the airlock or that you use the airlock for? Like what do companies ask for from you? Like this the weird stuff.
SPEAKER_00You don't have to give names. Well, so far, pretty useful and standardized requests. Uh, as for my experience, I never got some strange, let's say, requests from the customers. But um I mean the point of the Bishop Erlock is that really you can move the experiments uh from outside of the space station, and this is very cool since there are other platforms belonging to other companies, uh, so we are not the only one there. Uh but aside from the EVA of the astronauts, that is one of the let's say one of the methods, uh ways that we have to move experiments of to expose experiments. At the end of the day, it's like um it's like having um kind of you know um little bus that can go around the space station, and that's cool. That's cool. And probably it will be used even in Starlap.
SPEAKER_02And the the partners that you have, you said the Airbus and Palantir and Ajaxa, the Japanese uh space uh agency and others, what are their part in in this big uh in this big project?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh let's say that the joint venture was created to to access even capabilities of different partners, as you said. Uh for instance, uh Palantir is gonna take care of all the AI um tools for the space station, and it is something pretty new compared to the past, let me say, and AI is gonna be fundamental for the operations of the space station. Arabas is gonna um be there for components of the station, despite, let me say, the main structure are gonna be uh built in the United States. Um and so on, Mitsubishi as well, MDA with MDA is a very relevant company for robotic arms. So we are we are trying to leverage the so-called economy of complementarities because space at the end of the day, it's a kind of co-petition, right? Yeah, the blending of two words, competition and cooperation. Of course, we everyone aims to aim to uh let's say create a more competitive space environment around the world, but at the same time, we need cooperation because you have to access to capabilities that you cannot develop in-house. At the end of the day, it's it's like the normal business, right? If you have an ecosystem made of different companies, probably you can select to either in-source or outsource some activities, and space is the same. But the point is that space is much more expensive than normal activities. So, like we did in Star Lab, but in every in every other operation, especially for scientific missions, you need to complement, you need to aggregate capabilities to form, let's say, an unique um product or service or infrastructure. So, this is what we did, and I think it's gonna reward us in the future.
SPEAKER_02And the the astronauts are gonna go up there. Who is gonna train them? Who's gonna launch them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh we will provide the training. Uh, of course, as I said before, not everything is gonna come out from our, let's say, company. We will use leverage even other companies in the United States, but we will overall take care of the training of the astronauts. And uh, so far we have only um, I mean, probably we will continue to be using the dragon of SpaceX uh to get the astronauts up there. After, I don't know, maybe we'll have other revolution uh in the near future or other companies offering the same service. We are seeing in Europe uh even a kind of willingness to let's say uh recuperate the time that we lost uh in the years, providing human spaceflight, maybe. So we will use what is the best offering in the market and the and the most reliable one, of course.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and you and you said that the Star Lab is designed for about 30 years, yeah. So this is it's I'm I'm guessing it's gonna be upgraded during that time. Yeah, indeed. Is is there a plan to enlarge it or just to switch components or or not, or maybe you don't have plans yet?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh I think that in the future what is gonna be important is to uh leverage that kind of model that nowadays we are using all our devices, so you have an infrastructure that of course will need to be maintained and probably replaced along the years, of course. But what is gonna be important is to have a kind of software update, right? So you have your infrastructure, but along the way you will have to update the software inside. So I think it's gonna be like like this. Of course, we cannot expect that everything is gonna work perfectly along these 30 years. Uh but I think uh Starlab will be like the International Space Station. I mean, during the years we will continue our maintenance so that we replacing parts, components if needed. Uh and it is gonna it's it's it's how it's gonna work.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and from what I remember, um the the space station itself is like a big cylinder, and then it has this huge bubble, which used to be an inflatable bubble with Lockett Martin, and then it it you changed and and started working um with Airbus on doing something that's not inflatable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so why was the shift from something the inflatable kind of reminded me Bigelow Air Sport aerospace that that uh stopped working during COVID, sadly, because they had a very interesting concept. Um and they had one of those inflatable structures on the ISS as well. So, what got you to change the plan from something inflatable to something rigid?
SPEAKER_00Well, this is an idea back to the first years of the CLD program uh when Nanorax actually applied for uh building a space station. Uh, I think it was merely a change of strategy. You know, at the end of the day, the design of space infrastructure can change if you understand that something better can be done. So I wasn't I was not there, but uh for what I know, uh it was merely I mean, it was a change of strategy. I mean, just that.
SPEAKER_02I'm guessing anyway, if you're launching with uh Starship, then you can launch something big. You don't need something inflatable that will inflate in space because you have enough space in the Starship anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the point is that I mean the cool point of space is that things can change on the basis of what in what is changing in the ecosystem. So for instance, 10 years ago we didn't have access to Starlab, right? So we couldn't imagine to send up there a single model. Right now, Starship is going to be there, hopefully, in the next few years, so you can actually send up there one single model, and so your your idea, your strategy of on how to make this infrastructure change over the years. So this is, I think, uh it is like to have innovation recurrently innovation in the space sector that can impact how the companies can actually operate in the sector. And I think this was even the case for us at the very beginning.
SPEAKER_02So a few a few days ago during the Ilan Ramon International Space Conference, there was a panel with several companies that are competing to build space stations. One of your advantages over Axiom and Vast that were sitting there is that you're launching everything in one go up to space. The advantage is, of course, uh uh understandable. You have operation from day one, you don't have to integrate the whole station up in space. Is there a disadvantage of doing it? Like the the the only thing I could think of is that if something crashes, then the whole station goes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the same. I think this is probably the biggest disadvantage of this. I believe that we have backup plans, of course, if it's gonna happen. Of course. Uh I don't think I mean in space, it's pretty common to create even replica so that you can actually get a plan B operational if something goes wrong in the plan A. So yeah, I think this is the only disadvantage. So you basically concentrate the risk on one single launch, but on the other side, you have a lot of benefits, so it is a trade-off between uh disadvantages and opportunities through a single launch. But I think we as a company are mitigating pretty well this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. We've seen in the past decade in the space sector a lot of mergers, mergers, and acquisitions, MAs, a lot of them. Like it's the the it's like the sector is shrinking or the number of companies is shrinking because everybody's buying everybody. Um, and and you said that Voyager from from the the beginning from I think 2019 started buying companies, NanoRec's one of them. Um in your eyes, what are the advantages or disadvantages of all of these MAs, the strategy of MAs in the space sector, and and specifically with Voyager as well? This is a good question.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I thought about it a lot. So, you know, this is my personal view. I think that the space economy was going through a hype, especially during the last three, four years. You saw a lot of spark listing in the market, and some of them went well, some others not so well, and the price dropped after a few years of months. I think the market, more or less, despite this one, is very and heavily influenced by governmental fundings, the market sooner or later adjusts itself, right? So companies that are doing well will continue and expand, companies that are not doing well will cease to exist or maybe be acquired. A company needs to be commercial, not in the sense of selling only to private customers, but to be able to understand that space is changing. You know, what I found interesting when I was a researcher was the, if I'm not wrong, the commercial crew and cargo program of NASA. Basically, the agency wanted to have in place companies able to access to space, and so from that program, SpaceX was born, and uh actually everyone saw how it went. So, the point is this company understood that something could be done better compared to the past, and I think that this is a kind of mentality, a kind of mood that every space company should have for the future. So, those ones that are not able to grasp the essence of innovation, but not only in terms of product, you know, in terms of even as I said before, um lowering the barriers to the other sectors, so integrating, getting innovation from other sectors, for instance, or um thinking that not everything can be actually funded continuously by the government, or thinking that at the end of the day what you want to achieve is profitability, so you can be useful for let's say defense purposes, and that's fine. So but it at the same time you should be able to uh be profitable, otherwise listing on the market or trying to get venture capital funds and etc etc would be useless. That's that's the whole point behind a company, right? Be profitable. But this is very an idea that yeah, maybe you you had the big corporations in the past in the United States, in Europe, but those ones or the segments of those corporations operating in space were pretty comfortable since governments continued to give funds to them. Nowadays, they felt I think the competition. So they they felt that yes, you will continue to get governmental fundings, but on the other side, you need to be profitable, otherwise, in the logic of the market, it doesn't work. So when those companies are not able to grasp the essence of doing space nowadays, they would probably fail or cease to exist, and therefore, MA it's quite natural. So you buy a distressed company, you you want to rebuild the company in a more efficient way so that you can integrate their capabilities, technologies, IP customers. So, yeah, I mean uh the point of MA it's quite natural, uh, in other sectors for sure. In space, it's gonna be natural. You cannot think that the market is gonna be there for everyone, all right? Because we are, I mean, we have to remind that we are talking about space, and here you have to distinguish a little bit. So you have space for heart purposes like satellite services, heart observation, telecommunication, navigation, those are very relevant for our economy, as you may know. But thinking about exploration is a little bit different, or thinking about having infrastructure in all in low heart orbit to serve actually space activities is a little bit different. So uh of course, uh I think that growing through MA is a fast way to get into the market instead of growing organically, but at the same time, the main constraint or the main, let's say, disadvantage is that you have to be able to integrate the companies. So management, culture, technology, you have to make synergies. Uh when I was at university or when I was teaching, I used to say that two plus two equal five, right? Not four. Because at the end of the day, from MA you have to get synergies, synergies equal value, so value equal, of course, uh a good strategy that you pursued. So, in my opinion, um it is a good way to access to space capabilities, to not lose time, building by yourself assets, capabilities, uh, capacities, but on the other hand, we have I mean companies pursuing that and Voyager as well. Uh they need to really be able to integrate, integrate if efficiently, and with the idea that behind the scene you have to actually be able to have a unique corporate, not a kind of corporate put together just work, a unique corporate serving a portfolio of services and product. So I think this is the real challenge on the MA.
SPEAKER_02And the MA of course needs deep pockets. Uh, you need to purchase other companies. Uh who who is uh who's pouring money into Voyager? If if it's okay to say, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean in June we we went public, so we raised a lot of money actually from the market. Um, and these money uh are gonna be used for um our growth strategy. So namely right now buying companies useful for our purposes. Uh we got even credit facilities, uh so we are pretty reliable towards the markets right now. And yeah, I mean, of course, there are even profits that we are going to reinvest in the growing of the company, so a combination of them, let's say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and before you went public, who who were the like main investors in Voyager?
SPEAKER_00So, of course, the founders uh made a great investment in Voyager uh to start the operations, to start buying companies. Uh, we got even private investments within the company, so you know it's the kind of common way through which a company grew. So at the at the beginning you have the founders' fundings, after you grow, you have private fundings, and at the end, in a combination with credit facilities, and in the end you go public. So it's a kind of the normal way for a company to grow. How's the view outside? Beautiful.
SPEAKER_02So you said that it's your first time in Tel Aviv. We're sitting in the Rakia offices. So big shout out to Aitan and to Melody and to Yuval for hosting us here. Um Israel is a space nation, maybe I could say, with different uh interesting abilities. We we started from you know the uh ability to launch into space and um building very small satellites with uh very strong high-performance sensors in those satellites. Is is is Voyager technologies, you know, how how does it see the Israeli ecosystem? Are there any partnerships that are currently happening or planned with the Israeli ecosystem? The when you talked about um what you have today in the ISS where you can do different uh research, it it the first thing that came to mind is space pharma from Israel that does something similar with a three EU uh nanosatellite. So, how is the connection between your company and Israel today and and where is it gonna go?
SPEAKER_00Good question again. So I have to be honest, I didn't know pretty well the Israeli space ecosystem, and this is why I decided to join the Israeli Space Week. Of course, thanks to the invitation of Ethan and Melody, they were so kind to invite me here. Uh, I have discovered a lot of things during this week. Um, I have met a lot of uh space entrepreneurs, Israeli space entrepreneurs, and this is very cool because at the end of the day, you see a country really focusing on the space. Sector, something that doesn't happen often around the world. And the capabilities are all there, actually. Like a little bit in Italy, where we have the coverage of the entire value chain. So from making satellites, infrastructure modules, we have launchers. So I see the same kind of ecosystem here. Yes, I mean, as Voyager Technologies Europe and Voyager Technologies in general, we work a lot with uh Israeli companies. Uh actually, we work a lot with Rakia mission uh so that we can bring on board experiments, especially for uh educational purposes, and that is cool in my opinion. And we would like, I think, to um uh reinforce our collaboration for the future, um, especially for mission management purposes. But I believe that sooner or later we will be even able to progress our collaboration. I have to still uh understand or more than understand find the ways, but I want I would like to create a good connection with um, let's say the European ecosystem and the Israeli ecosystem, and specifically um my company, I mean the company running and the Israeli space ecosystem. We have different customers here, uh, everyone for the space station, for the international space station. So, yeah, I mean, right now I cannot say much more, but yeah, um the point to be here is exactly this not only experimenting, of course, the beautiful of your country, of Tel Aviv, of the hospitality of the people here, but of course the Israeli Space Week with all the people I met uh and the ecosystem. I learned a lot during these days, really.
SPEAKER_02So every year I see the uh not only the head of the uh Italian Space Agency but other people from the Italian Space Agency coming to the Space Week and specifically to the Ilan Ramon International Space Conference. Um and this is uh G2G, right? And I'm wondering if if there's anything like if this good connection between Israel and Italy on the governmental side of space is that gonna be trickling down to the commercial level? Are we gonna see more uh of a Mediterranean space hub between these two countries? What do you think?
SPEAKER_00I think that it could be the way, of course. I think so. Um you know we should cooperate as I said before. We should be able to work together in different programs. Uh I know that there are scientific programs in place between Israeli and Italian universities, for instance. So why not to translate this into something let's say that goes into the commercial side? So I think it's more than feasible, and I think it's gonna happen or happening already in some sectors, true.
SPEAKER_02Um you come, as you mentioned, from the space economy side, yeah. And and now you're very much in the science and engineering side, or the company is in the uh in science and engineering, and and it seems like it's becoming space is becoming more than just a sector, it's like an infrastructure or an enabler for other sectors like pharma, you you mentioned that, or I don't know, semiconductors, or whoever wants to test and try things in uh in microgravity. Um what's the added value for an Israeli biotech firm or for a German car manufacturer to work specifically with Voyager with Voyager? What does Voyager bring to the table?
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all, we have a long heritage. Now you put your marketing hat on. We have a long well, I did it in the last 30 minutes. Joking. True. Uh we have a long heritage, of course, because uh we were nanoraks before, so we were the first, if not wrong, private company around the world trying to exploit the opportunities uh of the International Space Station. So we have really uh both in Europe and especially in Houston, a lot of capabilities to do correctly a mission management service for these companies. So uh we basically offer whatever is needed to a customer, a biotech pharma to get into space. They have only to worry about, as I said before, to the experiment, but for all the rest, understanding the requirements, understanding what is the right facility on board the space station, understanding the safety. So, as you can imagine, before taking something on the International Space Station, we have to have a safety review by NASA in three stages or more, where actually you demonstrate or you want to test the fact that the experiment is not gonna be dangerous for the space station. We bring the experiment uh in Houston, we test it, uh, we integrate into the cargo, we launch it, and we have all the ops in orbit. So we have a control room in Houston where we can actually monitor whatever is happening to our experiments on board the ISS. So at the end, when the experiments are done, we can return them to Hurt if the customer uh requires this uh to maybe compare uh its experiment on Hert with the experiment done in space. So how how do you bring it back to Earth? Through the cargo. With the cargo that comes back, yeah. When the cargo comes back, we put the experiment inside and we bring them back to Earth. So I mean we we offer the full service, and uh I do not deny that sometimes we even complement our service with other companies, that I think is a good um a good thing to do because we add value, as I said before. So specifically when you have to deal with different segments, um advanced materials, pharma, bio, agriculture, I mean we do not have all the expertise inside to deal with these uh companies, as I said before. So to create the connection, you may serve you you may need some intermediary companies that are able to speak more concretely with these customers so that you combine the service and you actually be able to be more successful in uh bringing these companies on board as a customer. Uh so I think this is very important. You cannot have all the capabilities to deal with all these sectors, of course, because everybody has its own need, and it's difficult to, of course, satisfy everything. We are not a mass market producer right now. So we let's say one product fits all, one product fits one customer, or maybe two customers, but not all. So we need really to be uh in the position to understand uh the needs and to work with partners, and that's I mean, that's okay, that's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um I I think we've been hearding for the past hearing for the past decade about in-space manufacturing, and it seems like we're at the beginning of of of this very, very beginning of this phase. Uh why is now the time that it's finally happening? Is it is it launch costs or is it because ISS is is gonna be uh discommissioned, or what what's what's what happened that now everything is booming?
SPEAKER_00So uh we do a lot of R and D in space, R in space more than D, uh right now. Uh so like every kind of value chain, you start with the R, you do the D, you did the proof of concept, and after you go commercial by producing the product, right? So we really miss that part in space. Because maybe we assume that whatever we discover in space can be replicable on heart in terms of production, but it's not always the case. So the real point is how to connect the research side with the production side in space. For instance, take take this example into consideration. Maybe we have a pharma company interested in doing research in space, and maybe this research is gonna be successful. We discover a new drug useful for humanity. But the only point is that this drug can be only be uh produced in space uh for different reasons, let's say. Now, getting back to the company, okay. I invested in this experiment, I got great results, I can make my research profitable at the end of the day and benefiting humanity, but I need to produce it in space. So, how can I satisfy a kind of mass market production for all the customers that I can have on Earth? So if you think about millions or millions of this drug produced for satisfying all the customers, so I think that this is right now the bottleneck, right? Uh it's not a matter of doing the research, it's a matter of getting production uh online up there. Of course, it as I said before, it's not the case always. I mean, you can even produce your on Earth after your research in space, but production is gonna be useful up there if you want to create a real leo economy. There were studies saying that producing in space, of course, after the initial investment is gonna be more effective than producing on Earth due to the different conditions. Uh specifically uh microgravity, right? Or maybe you want to develop an infrastructure up there so you can actually create infrastructure in space and after assembly the infrastructure, how your project says, right? Instead of bringing things from HERT, or you can even produce for uh needs around the Earth orbit instead of bringing the things from Hurt, or again, especially for the moon activities. You cannot think to bring everything from Hurt every time is gonna cost a lot of money. So you you should have an in situ resource utilisation to extract materials, metals, and to produce directly on the surface of the moon. So I think the same logic can apply for hurt um activities. There is a great project, in my opinion, still to be validated in terms of efficiency or utilisation on HERT, which is the space solar power. So getting energy um clean to be transmitted to her directly. The point is, it's gonna cost a lot to send up there this big satellite collecting energy from the sun, probably in geo geo orbit. So the idea was why don't we create a constellation of satellites in Leo orbit so that we can be more effective? Uh so modularity, let's say. Or another idea was why we do not create directly these satellites in space through in-orbit manufacturing. So I think it's gonna happen. I don't know if it's gonna happen in the next five or ten years. Probably we'll we'll need more time. But I think the space the space stations will be a kind of great reason to go forward with in-orbit manufacturing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a it's an infrastructure that enables that. Yeah, without that, it's gonna be a bit hard. Um looking at your roadmap, um I don't know, few maybe two years ahead. What is the one milestone that keeps you up at night right now?
SPEAKER_00We want to grow. We want to grow in Europe, we want to being a company able to research and develop and develop in Europe, producing technologies for Europe. This is what what we want to do in the next few years. Uh better sooner than later. So we are really focusing on this right now, and this is my target as general manager at the company. Of course, I would like to grow in the current business, but I really think how to grow the company for the next few years. This is my goal.
SPEAKER_02What about the next I don't know, 15-20 years? Do you see, first of all, is is there a goal in the horizon? And then are there any thoughts about the moon or Mars?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the company probably is going to participate to let's say the endeavor of the lunar activities. Of course, uh, especially in the United States, uh manufacturing components, subsystems, we will participate to the different missions that can be uh done in on Mars and etc. etc. But yeah, I mean we at the end of the day, space it's enlarging the perspective of operation, right? We had the satellites, we have Leo let's say economy. We will have I think in 10-15 years a kind of lunar economy. So what we would like to do is to be present in each kind of endeavor. This is our idea.
SPEAKER_02Great. Final questions book or movie, space book or spo space movie you like?
SPEAKER_00Okay, this is this is very easy to be. Uh as for the movies, as I said before, Star Trek, but the original series. Okay. I think that it was in black and white at the beginning. In the very beginning, yeah. After uh let's say color, but uh the point is that I think that Star Trek original series anticipated a lot the future. I mean, not only in terms of you know the technologies they use, but even in terms of let's say messages. Uh if you think about the fact that during the 60s you had a kind of uh commander lieutenant, remember Chekhov, so Russian uh guy, you had uh uh black girl at the telecommunications in the 60s, you had so a crew made of different uh nations or different uh ethnics around the world. True. Uh it was something I mean at the time. So they envisioned a little bit the future, and after, of course, all the things the warp drive, the tricorder, the teletransportation, so Scott Me, beat me up. Nice, and as a movie of present days, I would say Interstellar. I really like Interstellar. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, I really love that movie. Uh, they say that some of the science behind the movie is wrong, but I don't care. The movie itself was very cool, and I would suggest even The Martian with Met Demon. Nice movie as well, nice movie.
SPEAKER_02And we're all waiting for um um Project Hail Mary that's gonna come next year from the same author of The Martian. Um you said beat me up, Scotty.
SPEAKER_00Would you want to go up there? Of course, of course, I would like really to go up there, and this is one of my personal objective. I don't know if this is gonna happen because it's not so cheap so far, but uh I would like to go up there, of course. I mean, I talk to different astronauts during these days, and whenever they they talk about their experience up there, I mean should be amazing.
SPEAKER_02With that happy note, Mattia, thank you very, very much uh for this interview and for what you're doing and what Voyager is doing to advanced space in low Earth orbit. And hopefully we're gonna see Star Lab up and running in the near future. For sure. Um yeah, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for this interview, this uh chat that we had, and uh again for the hospitality of this country. Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks.
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