The NorthStar Narrative
The NorthStar Narrative
Transforming Education with AI: A Conversation with Merissa Sadler-Holder
What if the future of education could be transformed by the power of AI? Join us as we sit down with Merissa Sadler-Holder, the recipient of ASU+GSV’s 2024 Leading Woman in AI title and visionary founder of Teaching with Machines. Listen as Merissa passionately discusses the importance of collective learning and how she equips educators with the resources they need to harness AI for both their professional growth and their students’ success. We also touch on the hot topic of academic integrity and the evolving landscape of cheating in the AI era.
As we look ahead to the 24-25 school year, we provide valuable insights for teachers and curriculum writers on how to smoothly incorporate AI into educational settings. Merissa underscores the importance of starting with just one AI tool to prevent feeling overwhelmed. Wrapping up, we celebrate the transformative potential of AI literacy, collaborative learning, and professional development! You'll love this episode packed full of wisdom!
Hi, this is Stephanie Schaefer and you're listening to the North Star Narrative, a podcast from North Star Academy. I want to thank you for joining us. I hope you're encouraged, challenged and motivated by what you learned today. Enjoy the story. Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining me today. Super excited to have a new friend to Northstar with us and it's going to be a really good listen today, so hope you can tune in and get to hear from Marissa Sadler-Holder.
Speaker 1:She is the recipient of ASU GSV's 2024 Leading Woman in AI title. She has 13 years of classroom experience and she's been an educator at La Canada Unified School District in California. She's currently residing in LA. She utilized her credentials in multiple subjects single subject, cte authorization and has a master's degree in e-learning to excel in her field. So, as you can hear, she's got lots of expertise to be talking to us today. She founded Teaching with Machines, which aims to serve forward-thinking educators and schools to leverage AI to innovate their practices and empower their students with AI. Teaching with Machines is a collaborative partner with ASU GSB Airshow, alongside Codeorg, digital Promise, ai Edu and AI for Education. So I'm so excited, marissa, that I've been able to meet you and Patty and Bethany from Northstar were able to hear you at the airshow and that you would just take time to join us right now. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for having me, stephanie. I appreciate it. Yes, I'm excited to jump right in. Okay, not too long ago I found out about GameStop and you mentioned it on here and all that went down with that during that time. It was pretty fascinating. I know out of what was going on and your experience and your desire to help people. You started a podcast during this time. Tell us a little bit about that journey, why you did that and how it has just accelerated your love for learning and helping others learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was really great.
Speaker 2:I think what it taught me is that when people come together with a common goal of being able to learn more and to enrich themselves in their lives, that learning can happen from anyone, from anywhere in the world. And I was really excited to see that just everyone was coming together and helping each other learn and like a collective intelligence, and so that really, like you know, as a teacher, you know that's like the best thing you can see is everybody's bringing their strengths to the table and going towards this goal of lifting everyone up. And so I started the Bull House, along with a couple other people. It's called the Bull House Podcast and it was just really to kind of share what we've learned. We brought people in, brought their expertise in and just try to lift everyone up through this learning. And I decided to kind of do the same with AI and education. I saw it coming and I thought you know, here's a very unique opportunity to share learning with each other with a common goal of making or bringing the best education that we can for our students.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. I love that you are passionate about learning and you know at Northstar I probably say it a lot on here that we're lifelong learners all of us and how that is just contagious at Northstar, and so I love what's going on with AI because it is for everyone. It doesn't matter if you're in education, if you're a student. It is a topic that we can get around, unite in to learn from one another, and no one's really above anyone else, because there's no way you can get to the top. It's going to be ever-changing, right, and so I'm super excited how you are investing in educators, using what you've learned and continuing to grow and learn. So tell me a little bit about Teaching with Machines, what you've created and how it is helping educators, and some of the resources that you have on your site.
Speaker 2:So probably about a year ago. Well, a year ago, april, I went to one of the ASU GSC conferences that they have a really big summit, and what I noticed there is that there were a lot of people like myself who are teachers there, and I thought, you know, we now are, you know, stepping into 2024 soon, and we should be bringing these voices to the tables, whether it's parents, students, teachers, decision makers all these people should have a stake at the table and should have their opinion valued. And so I saw AI coming in and I thought, oh my gosh, is this going to be another directive for teachers? Is this going to be another thing to add onto a plate? Are the teachers going to have a voice in this and how this is going to roll out? And so I decided to create Teaching with Matins to kind of amplify the teacher voice.
Speaker 2:At first I wanted to represent the teacher voice, and then I quickly learned you know that's way too big of a task and so now I am amplifying their voices. They reach out to me, they share their concerns, they share their excitements, their wins, and I amplify it out into the open so people have a good representation of what teachers are feeling at the moment, especially with AI and education. So it kind of morphed into also becoming a platform where teachers can go and educators as well to find resources to get guidance. I have templates and downloadables and I put together professional learning journeys, just kind of to help teachers navigate this new world and see it as a moment of empowerment, because we have to model what AI can do to empower ourselves. But really it's because we need to model that for our students. We need to show them that AI, when used appropriately, could be empowering to them as well in their learning. Ai, when used appropriately, could be empowering to them as well in their learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, all right. One of the things that we hear from educators, from teachers, you know, the biggest fear is the cheating. I know that you have addressed that before and one thing I love that you said is that cheating evolves. Cheating isn't new. Like there's been so many ways to cheat before AI, there's going to be new ways after AI. But do you want to talk about that for educators, for teachers and for parents? Just elaborate more on. Should we really be worried about that?
Speaker 2:I think, like you had mentioned, cheating evolves. It it's always been around and it looks different as technology evolves as well. Right, you know, back in the day, they had smartphones and then a smart, you know, smart watch, and then suddenly you know they're doing X, y, z and we're we're constantly trying to keep up with how the kids are pacing us, in a sense, right, so, um, but really what that means is kind of like, you know, back in the day, we were all worried about the Internet and all the resources that were available on the Internet, and now it's something that we can't possibly, as educators, imagine happening without teaching, like teaching without it. Right, it's an invaluable resource. We need to teach kids how to use it to, you know, build their own learning journeys with that. So I think, the same thing with AI. It's going to kind of, you know, at first it just really means change, and I think that is probably what nobody's really saying. It's like the big element in the room, right, what you're really saying is that we have to change how we assess, we have to change what we assess, and the bigger thing is is what is really truly important, that the students should be learning for this new future, and so that's a big mouthful and a lot of conversation and a very big discussion that teachers simply don't have time to ask, right, or even are given the time to have that conversation. And so I think what it comes down to is there is a lot of fear surrounding it.
Speaker 2:I think cheating is, you know, we can't use what we did, you know, last year or the year before or five years ago, because the technology has changed. And really what it comes down to it, too, is that the students are not the same students either, right? So, like five years ago, I don't have the same students that I have today, and we also have to keep that in mind moving forward. It's not just that our materials are stagnant, they have to be adjusted as they go are stagnant, they have to be adjusted as they go, and so I think remaining flexible is probably the most difficult thing a teacher can do, especially given this time. The last five years we've had a lot come at us as educators from COVID and changes and literacy problems. A lot has been put on the teacher's plates, but now you're throwing AI on it, and so the cheating aspect, coming back to that, I think, really comes down to the ability to remain flexible and maybe kind of redefined how AI should be used.
Speaker 2:Right, I believe in giving students boundaries with technology. I believe in making students boundaries with technology. I believe in making sure that students are prepared for their future and that future is going to involve AI. And so maybe just kind of shifting the mindset, especially shifting the mindset of not just the teachers but the students. This is no longer a cheating tool, rather a learning tool, and let me tell you how to do that. So I think there's a lot going on there. But first, as educators, we need to learn what AI is, why it's important for them to know it, and then how we can empower our students with it. And so if we get that, then we can shift to now. It's no longer a cheating tool, it is a learning tool. And then hopefully that learning tool will go beyond just what the time that they have with us in the class.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. Another question I was going to ask you is why is AI literacy important for students? But I think you just answered that mostly, I mean, it's a tool that's here to stay and let's get the most positive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just going to tell you a quick little story on LinkedIn, right, this is about. I think eight months ago I posted a poll on LinkedIn after having a conversation with a local principal and they were. He was talking about getting AI professional development for his staff and he was like you know, the thing that they're going to care most about is the teaching. Please make sure you cover that, right? And I said yes, of course. He says maybe you lean closer to me? And he says so I use I have to confess, I use ChatGPT for my speak at graduation last year. It was amazing and I said, oh, you did, I mean, did you tell your staff that you used it? And he says, oh, my gosh, no, please don't tell anyone.
Speaker 2:Like, okay, I won't tell your name, but I'm telling this story because I think it's fascinating that he has guilt and shame around using AI to complete one of his own tasks, right? And so that really kind of made me step back and say are other educators potentially just not educators, but people in general in society? Are they feeling guilt and shame? Surrounded um for you, are they feeling guilt and shame for using ai to complete their tasks? And so I asked lincoln right, I made a poll and I said, hey, do you feel guilt and shame for using AI to complete some kind of work task and it was, in particular, for educators and they all responded pretty much yes, overwhelmingly yes, I feel guilt and shame.
Speaker 2:And then somebody who's a CEO of a company not related to the industry, not in education, responded guilt and shame. Are you guys crazy? I will not hire somebody who doesn't know how to leverage AI. Now, this was eight months ago. So these are your students. That he's talking about your future employer. This is your children. He's referring to your children's future employer. So, yes, AI literacy is 100% important because this is their future. It's already being demanded of them now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, such a good point, and it does take work, education, practice to be able to use AI, all different types of tools. It's not something. Oh, let me just pull up ChatGPT and be able to get exactly what you want, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:How you write it, how do you ask questions. Yeah, it's a lot to learn. So Bethany and Patty, who attended the air show, heard you speak and they really liked about how you told the educators don't throw out what is working, but use what you have. And so what is your process for deciding on units, standards, projects that can be augmented with AI or enhanced ed tech? So, speaking to educators, how do they take what they have, what they've already designed, and put AI into it?
Speaker 2:So again, really it doesn't need to be an overhaul. And I think that's probably the biggest misconception. And I want to tell everybody I mean whether you're an educator or a parent or just listening in if all else fails, if you're unsure, ask AI, just ask it right. So that's the kind of the approach that I took with this whole thing. First I asked AI.
Speaker 2:I'm like how can I add in some kind of AI literacy activity to support AI literacy for my students? I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel, I don't want to have to recreate something. What can I do? And it literally suggested use something that you already do. And then I took it. As you know my own educational background and my experience, I'm going to take something that already works, because when you take something that already works, a project or an assignment that the students really enjoy doing, you just add a little something to it, an extra activity component to support AI literacy. If that fails, if that component fails, activity itself is really really valuable. You already know it works, you already understand that the students are learning and they're demonstrating the understanding of the learning. You don't have to worry about it working or not working. But also, in doing this, you are providing opportunities for students to start exploring and building AI literacy for themselves.
Speaker 2:And, to be really simplistic, just take what it is that you already do amazing project. Put the project prompt into AI, ask it to come up with additional activities that support AI literacy. Ask it to come up with additional activities that support AI literacy. I'll give you a list, and some of them will be great. Some of them won't be great, but you pick one that you think your students might think is okay, and then you add it into your project prompt. And again, the biggest thing here, though, when you do that, is that you have to be okay with it failing, because when we sit down and play with AI for the first time, we are playing with AI. We have to allow students to play as well. So, a lot of times, I encourage teachers to maybe not make it something that will affect their grade, maybe just make it something where it's just a completion point or whatever, but the most important thing is that they are trying it, they're playing with it and they're learning from it, and then they are reflecting about that process, and there's two processes there. In having them do the reflection process and the reflection, you're asking them how is AI actually helping them learn and is it? Is this actually helping them? And have them reflect upon that piece and how did they use it? So, did you run into any challenges? Were there any hallucinations? Were there any limitations? Were there any frustrations that you felt? How did you address them? What did you do? And so you're thinking about how you're doing it and it becomes super meta.
Speaker 2:Right, you're thinking about your learning, but you're also thinking about your process and using the tool, and so you have those two components and on my website, which any listener, if you are interested, you can go on, it's a free download and all it is is just a boundary.
Speaker 2:It's called AI. I think I called it the AI toolbox and basically, as a teacher, you go and you select which ones the students have access to use AI on. So like, if you want it to write a draft, or if you want it to correct your grammar, or if you want them to maybe come up with some neat ideas for a class, you give them permission to do that. But then on the second page is the reflection questions that they have to answer. So you just attach it to do that. But then on the second page is the reflection questions that they have to answer. So you just attach it to any kind of project prompt or anything. It's done for you and it's all adjustable, so if you don't like it, you can change it, but the idea is that you're giving them permission with boundaries and then allowing them the opportunity to start learning with ai I love that.
Speaker 1:I love thinking about playing. I mean, that's how kids learn right, playing, and so we did the same way Playing, not worried about failure. And then what I really love is examine Educators examining, but then having the students examine. What did I learn from this?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love that. That's good, all right, what is your oh?
Speaker 2:sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say there's also another thing on there for teachers, if they are interested, is a downloadable that is allowing you to create classroom norms surrounding AI, and what that means is you sit down with your class and you say this is acceptable use, this is not acceptable use. This is the boundaries that we are putting in place with AI for my classroom. And then you kind of because AI moves so quickly you set a date of when you're going to revisit those norms and it just it's a template. You can change it, you can make it however you guys want. It just is something different. So, like, I think that's something that teachers also should keep in mind. You, it just is something different.
Speaker 1:So like, I think that's something that teachers also should keep in mind. You know we are because everybody's at this playing field. This like everybody's learning as we go Right now. I feel like teachers.
Speaker 2:They have the ability now to say what role AI will play in their classroom, but it will play a role, and that's something we have to come to. You know friends with, but you get to decide what role that's going to play, and so you create the boundaries there with your students. This is acceptable. This is not acceptable, and this is how you should be using it. Let I love it. It's really creative. I think that's also. It's that innovation, creativity, demonstrating understanding in a different way. It's bringing a voice to people who didn't have a voice before. I mean, it's incredible. It's a new art form, in my opinion. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is an interesting point, because many people have said AI is going to stifle or stop creativity, our God-given creativity, where others say, oh no, it just broadens it, it gives you more opportunity for creativity. What do you usually tell educators when they go either way in this?
Speaker 2:I usually tell you know, there is the talent, as we know, of right now, right, and I'll tell you a quick story. I had a conversation being in LA. There's a lot of people in the industry down here, right, and a lot of them are against AI, and I 100% understand why. Because it's not we, the unknown, right. We don't know what it's going to do. We don't. There's no boundaries right now with that, and I think.
Speaker 2:But in having a conversation with somebody you know who is completely against it, and I'm thinking, you know, my own husband has decided to start doing arts on his own. Now, if he were to pick up a pen and sit down and draw, he wouldn't be able to do it. If he were to pick up a paintbrush, he certainly couldn't do. It Doesn't mean his creativity doesn't already reside within him, and now, with AI, he's able to put in words his creativity, to create an image, to capture it. Who's to say that isn't art either? It's just a form that we haven't seen before. Because if art is about telling stories, then that is really an art form as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, not putting up fences and gates immediately, but I like the boundaries. Yeah, you need boundaries, you need to teach responsibility and model for students. But when we just put up gates and say, nope, this isn't going to work, we're not doing this, I mean, that's, I think, is dangerous.
Speaker 2:AI is a tool and without the human input, the human part that you know is required of it, right? So, like my husband in art, ai did not create that without his input. He needed to be a part of that creation, and so I think what we have to keep in mind is that it's just a tool, but without the human aspects it's not creating anything. It's until the human puts its touch on it. Then something is created.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. Hey, a question for you. So what would you say, or what do you say if you talk to educators about this? What does it mean to be human?
Speaker 2:uniquely human, I think, is the ability to love, the ability to show compassion, the ability to heal, and, whether that is faith or believing in something like, it's almost easier to say what isn't human right, because it's like, especially in regards to teachers, I tell them that AI or technology or any of those things will never replace the human intelligence, the compassion, the sincerity that you bring to the classroom, that helps other humans build up and, you know, bring out their own sense of creativity and love and compassion. So it's really hard to put a word on it and I'm sorry I'm not as eloquent as I probably should be, but it's just you'll never be replaced and I think that is really really, really important because you know you bring so much. A human brings so much to this.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think you can have a really good conversation around AI without talking about that question in some way or another, because I think that's that helps address the fears that people have, like it's going to overtake, it's going to, I'm not going to be needed anymore. But yeah.
Speaker 2:And emotional intelligence, the human intelligence right, the emotional thing. I think also kind of the beauty of one of the reasons why I love AI is because it actually is forcing us to have these conversations. We are forcing ourselves to redefine what it means to be human and focus on what is important for us to be, or being, a good human right. So all of these things. And then you know, of course, that trickles down to education. What is important for education now? Critical thinking, collaboration, working with others, creativity, innovation, those things become more and more important and I think you know it's great, I love that we actually have to have this conversation. And then it's not just reserved for philosophers and textbooks, or, you know, it's everybody talking about it.
Speaker 1:No, it's good and a good way to get students to critically think about who they are. Why were they created? What's their purpose? Is there somebody beyond them? You know? Is there somebody beyond them? You know, someone bigger and greater that has created them? And yeah, so we love at North Star to give opportunity for students to critically think.
Speaker 1:In our courses, we biblically integrate, you know, the biblical worldview is seen throughout, but we let students hear here's a theory, this is what you're going to be presented with when you leave here, you know, and what, what do you think about this? And let them come to their own conclusions. But, uh, I mean a big one, which we've always asked. But we'll continue, and I think it becomes more real, like now we have to have these conversations. What does it mean to be human?
Speaker 1:And for me, I would add, you know, like, hey, do I have a purpose? Why was I created? And then you can look around and see all of the creation that you know we're a part of and that, yeah, that there is a God who loves me and wants to have a relationship with me, and yeah, so, anyway, we could go on and on and talk about all the good things in his creation. But back to a little bit about when you're talking to teachers and curriculum writers about incorporating AI intentionally and thinking about the new school year. So we're wrapping up the 23-24 school year. Hopefully everybody gets a little break. Then we're heading into 24-25. So yeah, thinking about that, curriculum authors, writers, ai, preparing for the new school year, what would you tell teachers in this moment?
Speaker 2:I would tell teachers first of all, take your break. You need it, you deserve it. Ai is still going to be there and I think most importantly is you have to give yourself a chance to play and recognize that the fear that you may be having stems from not knowing, and if you take some time to try to understand and know, it will seem a little less scary, seem a little less scary. And, most importantly, just try not to overwhelm yourself and pick one tool, one thing to become good at, and then that will lead to something else and will lead to something else.
Speaker 2:But we are at this particular moment where all the amazing, beautiful things that makes the teaching profession incredible is now able to like. You can now focus more on it, because ai will help you reduce the tasks that go along with the teaching. It will help you create more. It will help you innovate the tasks that go along with the teaching. It will help you create more. It will help you innovate more, and so you're creating more of those amazing moments with your students, and all of that sounds really wonderful. But first trust, play, just play, because then you'll see where the innovation can go, because you are professionals, you understand education. You have your degrees in it, just play and you can see where it can take you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that advice. And just one tool, because you can be overwhelmed with all your choices oh, how do I know which one? But pick one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Pick one and when you're ready to move on, you move on to the next one. You know it's easy to get overwhelmed.
Speaker 1:So no need to do that. All right, what are some emerging AI technologies or trends that you believe will transform education in the next few years, so beyond the beginning of 24, 25,? What's your prediction? Okay?
Speaker 2:So I think, well, I hope. Beginning 24, 25, what's your prediction? Okay? So I think, well, I hope, let's say I hope that I think ai is going to pave the pathway to this. So I do think right now that we do have a problem in education. People are not happy in overall, with the education that is being provided, certainly, and so I think there is a demand to kind of sit back and really address these things and hopefully AI will help us find solutions to these things. And I think what AI? I see AI being integrated. I see AI being one of those things that are going to be in our curriculums A through 12, to start supporting those students.
Speaker 2:Now, if we're talking in the short term, I really feel like AI is enough to bite off and I think that's going to be hard right. So, you know, education tends to move a little bit slower, especially if you're in, like the public sector. So it will take a couple of years to get to the point where people are really fully embracing it. Um, but I see in the future a lot more um virtual reality. I see a lot more um blockchain, potentially with education. Um, a lot more um education, a lot more student agency on their pathways.
Speaker 2:So what I mean by that is, you know, instead of telling a student, this is what they should be learning, it's more like what is your interest and what is already areas that you are good at, so we can build upon that and add in ways that those skills that we want you to learn can be supported through discovering your interest or supporting your interest and so kind of creating these other, these different kinds of pathways for learning, because there isn't just one way to learn, and we've've all learned that, and most people would say that learning for themselves has happened when they left school, because they were able to really dive into what their interests are.
Speaker 2:So if we can kind of do that for our students, I think that's where we're going to head, and I think AI will be a part of that. I think blockchain will be a part of that and that could probably be, in 20 years, the blockchain thing. So I but I see it starting to pave a path, because people want something different and now we have something that can start helping us actually create these changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. It's exciting to move forward. Yeah, not knowing exactly what's happening, but I just love that. We know we have to prepare our students for the future. We have to move them and ourselves to be future ready for what's coming. And so all of these conversations, all the work you're doing, the resources that people are putting out there, like on your website, teaching with machines yeah, it's great, and we're just doing that together All right. So, thinking on our conversation today, what's one takeaway you want to make sure our listeners heard and remember.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, first I'm going to repeat it again the path to AI literacy and kind of breaking down those walls of fear is to play, start playing, and I don't mean this just for students and teachers, I mean this for everyone, parents, because we now have something that can actually break barriers, a tool that actually can level some playing fields, and the only way we can do that is if we equip ourselves with these skills, and I think we now have I mean parents in in, you know, parts of the world that maybe don't have equal access to education and all these things. You now have tutors, a tutor 24 hours. If they have access to internet, they have access to a tutor and a tutor for their students, a tutor for themselves, and what we're doing is giving the gift of education. If you use AI for this, you are giving yourself the gift of education and you're giving your student, your child, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:First you've got to just play, play and learn and find out really how it's built, because there are some downfalls to it, right, the hallucinations, the limitations of it. You should be aware of all of that. The first step is play, try it out, see how it applies to you. You might be surprised. That's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what we're doing at Northstar. We have some professional development, we're working with all our teachers and, yeah, just playing. We just did it the other day and we played together. So that's fun. You don't have to do it by yourself. Whether you're meeting on Zoom or, you know, in teams, like we do, we're all on video together or in a classroom. You know, taking some time after school, like get other people around you to play with you, because that makes it more fun. Then you learn from one another.
Speaker 2:Definitely and you learn from one another. I think that's important too is you have a group that you can collaborate with. Again, this goes back to the whole GameStop thing when one person learns, then everybody else starts learning and sharing the knowledge. So this is one of those times where this is where we really should be turning to each other. Humanity will be learning and sharing together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which again kind of what I started with at the beginning. That's what I love about AI at the moment because it brings people together, love collaboration. I love podcasting because I get to meet new people like you and just everybody has little nuggets of wisdom. Everybody's on a different path, but yet how are we alike? Well, we're all human, so we can all have that conversation together. It really excites me because it's bringing people together, no matter what community you're in, because even if you're listening and say I've never used AI, guess what you have. You may just not be able to identify it. But right, marissa, everyone's used, it's all around us.
Speaker 2:It is, it really is, and we didn't even ask for it. It's on my computer, it's on, you know, my phone, it's on your, your kid's Snapchat, like it's everywhere so you know it is Well.
Speaker 1:it's been so fun hanging out with you and just hearing what you're exploring and learning and how you're passing it on. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners as we wrap up?
Speaker 2:No other than just if you want to reach out, if you need any help, look, I am here for you. This is why I left my classroom in order to support people, whether you are an educator or not an educator. If you are passionate about learning and passionate about education and you need help, reach out. You can find me at teachingwithmachinescom or LinkedIn and I'm happy to sit down with you. We'll Zoom, we'll hang out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she's lots of fun. This is my second time to sit down with her. Thank you so much for hanging out and sharing all that you're learning and what you're doing with north star. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening today. If you have any questions for our guest or like information about north star, please email us. At podcast at nsaschool, we love having guests on our show and getting to hear their stories. If you have anyone in mind that you think would be a great guest to feature, please email us and let us know. And don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on upcoming stories.