Soccernostalgia Talk Podcast
Soccernostalgia Talk Podcast
Soccernostalgia Talk Podcast-Episode 282 (Interview with Mr. Luca Parrish (The Mixed Zone on Substack, as we discuss UC Sampdoria in the 1980s (1982-1986))
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This is the 282ndepisode of my podcast, 'Soccernostalgia Talk Podcast’.
For this episode, I interview Mr. Luca Parrish as we discuss UC Sampdoria in the 1980s (1982-1986).
Mr. Parrish writes about Football and Cricket on his Substack page, The Mixed Zone and is the former Sport Editor and President of The Student Edinburgh.
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Hello everyone. This is the 282nd episode of Soccer Nostalgia Talk Podcast. As always, this is Sean from Los Angeles on the Soccer Nostalgia blog. For this episode, I interview Mr. Luca Parish as we discuss Italian club Samptoria in the decade of the 1980s. For this part, it'll be from 1982 to 1986. Mr. Parish writes about football and cricket on his Substack page, the mixed zone, and is the former sport editor and president of the Student Edinburgh. Welcome, Luca.
SPEAKER_01It's great to be here. Football's been a huge part of my life. I've been watching and going to football since I was very, very little. And I think kind of out of over lockdown, I got into sort of watching older matches and football history and things like that. And my father's got family in Italy, so Italian football was obviously a focus, and part of that family supports Sampdoria. So Sampdoria were always the club I gravitated towards, I suppose, which is the reason for the interest.
SPEAKER_00Let's go back in time. What was the status of Italian club Sampdoria, the Blue Cercati, in the Italian cultural landscape, culturally and geographically, as we come to the early 80s and the mid-1980s?
SPEAKER_01So Sampdoria is a fairly recent club. So they were only founded in 1946 when two clubs that existed previously in Genoa realized it would be more sort of efficient for them to merge. So it was Andrea Doria and Sampier, hence Sam Gloria. But ever since then they've been a fairly consistent mid-table Serie A club. They'd had a couple of relegations in 1966 and 1977. But they've been a relatively recent and relatively successful club throughout the 50s, 60s, and most of the 70s. I mean, probably the most notable player they'd have up to that point was Luis Suarez, who had a few seasons there in the early 70s after leaving Inter. But while they were a relatively successful club, they were never the sort of club that were challenged for league titles. And I think it was very much a case of them knowing their place within the Italian football pecking order, where obviously you've got the big three, Milan, Juve, and Inter. And there are a lot of other clubs between Sampdoria and the top of Italian football. And by the time you get to 1982, obviously Italy have just come off winning the World Cup. You've got an incredibly strong Juventus side, which is probably the strongest Juventus side we've ever seen. Got Roma, who are strong. Sampdoria again, while they do have the chance to be a mid-table club, the idea of them ever becoming something bigger than that is pretty remote at that point.
SPEAKER_00This story of Sampdoria in the 1980s really starts with club president Paolo Mantovani. What can you say about him and his early years as he's reshaping the club that would make an impact into this and the following decade?
SPEAKER_01So Mantovani was originally from Rome. I think he'd grown up supporting Lazio, but then had moved to Genoa for work reasons. He had always been interested in football. So he was involved originally with Genoa, but then there was a falling out with him and the club president. So he sort of put his time towards St. Gloria instead. He was club secretary during the mid-1970s. And this was alongside his work because he worked in the oil industry as well. So he kind of balanced those two roles. After the old SAMP president, a guy called Glauco Getty resigned after SAMP were relegated in 1977. There was a short sort of interregnum period, but Mantavani was actually able to make a lot of money in the 1979 oil crisis, and that allowed him to buy the club. So one of the first moves he made was actually building a new training complex. And that was not only a sign that he was prepared to invest, but also a sign that he was prepared to sort of lead the club forward long term, and that he had very clear plans and ideas of where he wanted the club to go. So to have someone like that for, as I say, a relatively small club was hugely, hugely important.
SPEAKER_00And actually, that first season that we're going to talk about, 1982-83 season, he was actually in exile in Switzerland as he was trying to escape the tax authorities, which was eventually cleared. And I think for some of this first that season, it was his daughter Francesca, who used to sit in the director's box. So Mantovani's first important decision was to appoint Renzo Olivieri as manager in 1981. And he would help and lead the club to promotion in 1982. Was he the type of manager needed at this time?
SPEAKER_01I suppose if you look at Olivieri's career, he's a sort of very typical journeyman Italian manager who's sort of been around the peninsula at so many different mid-table clubs. He was relatively inexperienced when he came to Sampdoria. But I think the important thing to remember about Sampdoria at that point is they'd been in Cherry B for four or five years and been through four or five managers in that time. So what the club really needed was some sort of stability, and I think Mantavani realised that as well. And in appointing Olivieri, I think the main goal was to try and find some sort of platform for the club to build around in terms of having a consistent manager to build a squad and also just be a more consistent presence than what the club had had, because it had been very chaotic since the relegation in 1977. And I think Olivieri was very effective in doing that and providing a sort of solid basis. Looking back on it now, there aren't there aren't too many recognizable names. I think the goalkeeper was a chap called Palo Conti who played for Roma. The number 10 was a player called Alessandro Scanziani. He was the top scorer when Sampra promoted. And he had been an inter previously. But again, these aren't particularly big or exciting names. I think maybe the most recognisable would be Luca Pellegrini, who was 19 years old at this point, so still very young. But he would be with Sampdoria throughout all their success, obviously as part of the title-winning team. And they had actually signed Kitcher Vierkovod in 1981. Now, I don't think anyone at that point would have known the sort of player he'd become, but I think again it's a sign of foresight. He was actually loaned out for the 1981-82 season. He was at Fiorentina. But again, having a young player like Vierkovod and another one in Pellegrini shows the again the idea that Mantovani wasn't just in it to make a quick buck and get out. He was really committed to the club long term.
SPEAKER_00As Sampdoria were promoted in 1982, was Serie A's survival the only objective, or was Mantovani publicly more ambitious?
SPEAKER_01I think Mantavani was publicly more ambitious, but I think you kind of get a lot of that with owners of football clubs who say they want the football club to be a certain way. I think what's different with Mantovani is he was able to back that up with money he put into the club and the long-term planning, but that money was involved. I've mentioned the training ground already. Now, not only is that putting money into the club, it's also a clear sign of long-term planning. And already in 1982, obviously the idea was short-term stay up, build. How do you build a squad that can survive and compete in the mid-table of Serie A? But I think that the construction of the new training ground and a couple of signings he made were really important in proving that Mantavani was very ambitious and was not just talking a good game, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Given the side were a promoted team, there was an ambitious recruitment for the 1982-83 season. You have Dario Bonetti coming on loan from Roma, future international. He gained a caps in 1986. Later played for Juventus as well. You have Alessandro Renica coming from Vicenza. Of course, he would be part of the Napoli side that would win the scudetto with Maradona in 87 and 90. You have the Republic of Ireland midfielder, Liam Brady, coming over from Juventus after Juventus had signed Michel Platini and Zbigniev Boniek. You have Francesco Casagrande arriving from Fiorentina, Domenico Maggiora, another midfielder coming from Roma. You have strikers like Alvario Chiori coming from Bologna, you have the England striker Trevor Francis coming from Manchester City, and you have a certain teenager, Roberto Mancini, arriving from Bologna for recruitment for a city. This is somewhat ambitious. What was the general outlook as a result? As in addition, there generally was a different vibe in the calcio. As this promotion was in the backdrop of the Squadra Azzuri having just won the World Cup, and perhaps maybe Samptoria was somewhat under the radar as a result.
SPEAKER_01I think it's really important actually to place it in the context of what happened in 1982, because I think we always think of Italian football and Serie A in the 90s as being the place where all the top players would go that had the most money. But really it started in the 80s. You look at obviously all the players from the Italian national side, most of them would have been in Serie A, and most of the best foreign players from Spain 82 would end up playing in Italy. You mentioned already Platini and Bonnet going to Juventus. But over the next few summers, you know, you get Rumaniga, Sarezzo, Zico, Socrates, Falcau, who was already at Roma. So it was already really the place to be in terms of top players. So on one level, the signings, I think the two signings that really stand out in terms of ambition are are Brady and Francis as two sort of big foreign stars. So on one level, Brady and Francis being there, it doesn't look necessarily that spectacular. But for a club like Sampdoria, who'd just been promoted, to have two players of that calibre, it's important to remember as well, I don't think. So Brady had just come off the back of winning two league titles with Juventus. He was still very much in his prime. So it wasn't as if they were signing players who had been stars and were sort of coming to the end of their careers. They were signing real top quality straight away. And as I say, for a club like Sampdoria to be doing that, that shows real ambition. And crucially, as well, the fact they had young players. You mentioned Mancini, but also Viecovod, who was out on loan at that point. They had young players waiting in the wings to sort of supplement the squad going forward. And again, the key difference with St. Laura and other clubs appears to be the sort of long-term planning that Mantovani was willing to put into his squad.
SPEAKER_00The signing of Roberto Mancini in the summer of 1982 made headlines in those days as it was a record fee for a teenager. Was, as you pointed out, Mantovani looking to build a team for a future around young Italian talent?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I definitely think so. You look at Pellegrini's presence in the squad, Viercovod, and I mean Mancini's the real standout, I think. He was so highly rated all the way up through the youth system. I think he was at that point in Italian football the next great hope, the next great player that Italy would have to lead them forward. So for a club like Sampdoria to have him was obviously hugely fortunate. And I think it's especially important if you remember the sort of way Italian football was played in the 80s. The number 10 was the heartbeat of the team, it was the key figure. If you look at the amount of money people spend on people like Michel Platini, it was the position everyone wanted to be, it was the position everyone wanted to play. And Mancini was the up-and-coming number 10 at this point. So for Sampdoria to have him, I think it certainly shows that young Italian players would be the key to the project, certainly for the next few years.
SPEAKER_00For this 1982-83 season, Sampdoria started with a bang as they defeated in the first few matches Juventus, Inter, and Roma. Did this make the observers take attention and stabilize the club as Sampdoria finished seventh that season, just below the UEFA Cup places? And again, this was a significant achievement for a newly promoted side.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I think it was an amazing achievement, really. I mean, obviously they had some fantastic players, but most of the squad was fairly new, so it was still a new group of people, and you never know quite know how the relationships are going to work. So it was a fantastic achievement. I think in terms of perception, it was maybe obviously announced that SAMP were a serious club and Mantavani had a good project on the go. But in terms of perception, I'd maybe so it was even more important for Sampdoria themselves and their view of themselves as a club, because they would have been seen seeing themselves as underdogs and it would have given themselves a real confidence going forward, particularly for Mantavani, because if Mantavani had spent all this money and they'd had an average season, they'd struggled, they'd been under threat of relegation, then it would have been much more difficult for him to justify spending money going forward. The fact that he spent this money on the new training round, all the new signings, and seen the results on the pitch really justified that to himself that the project was moving in the right direction and he was spending money, but also spending money in the right place. And as a result, it would have been able to encourage him to spend money going forward. So I think the confidence it would have given Sam Dory themselves was a really crucial part of the story of how we assess Sam's first few seasons in Serie A in the 80s, and I think, particularly for Mantebani in terms of his own confidence with the project.
SPEAKER_00And to put in perspective these first three victories of the season, this is a Juventus side that has won back-to-back league titles and has the backbone of an Italian national team that had just won a World Cup, plus Platini and Boniac. So, in a way, this was also maybe a revenge match for Liam Brady to show Juventus.
SPEAKER_01I think in 82-83 it would have Roma won the league that year, but I think Juventus were all throughout that period from the late 70s through to the mid 80s. Juventus were the sort of dominant force in Italian football. I think they they reached the European Cup final that year. Obviously, Shirea, Platini, Paolo Rossi, all of these names that are sort of so big in the minds of people who follow Italian football. So that would have been a huge scalp. Juventus is also really sort of under Trappettoni pioneered the way Italian football was played at that point. So for Olivieri to be able to beat Trappettoni, again, the confidence it must have given Ulivieri, but also Sabdori is a club must have been absolutely huge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and of course, the second match they beat Inter, third match they beat Roma that, as you said, would win the Serie A that season with Falcao, Bruno Conti, Mancellotti. So first season back, their solid foundations. So we come to the 1983-84 season. Samptoria are satisfied with their foreign contingent, but they made a few more efficient signings, and a few of them would be part of the Glory Years era. So you have Inter's veteran goalkeeper Ivano Bordon, who was a backup to Dinosov in the national team. He came on board from Inter. Pietro Vierkovod. He returned from his loan from Rome, where he had just won a scudetto. Roberto Gallia came from Como. Of course, future Juventino, and he would gain a cap in his career. From Juventus came Domenico Marocchino. You also have Fausto Parti arriving from Parma. Of course, he would be one of the emblematic players of Samptoria's glory era. The players who left included backup goalkeeper Guido Bistazzoni, who went to Pistoiese. Starting goalkeeper Paolo Conti joined Bari. Dario Bonetti returned to Roma. Mauro Ferroni joined Verona, with whom he would win the Scudetto in 1985. Domenico Maggiora also joined Cagliari. The team once again finished seventh, just missing out in Europe. So was stabilizing near the top of the table once again considered a positive result?
SPEAKER_01I think so. I mean, it would be obviously in Mantavani's dreams, he would have sort of thought we'll get promoted one year and we'll just sort of gradually move up the table year after year. But obviously, football doesn't work like that. You've got so many different factors at play, and also luck's a huge part of it. Well, so you can't really bargain for precisely where you're going to finish each year and assume that progress is just going to come automatically. You mentioned Fausto Bari there, and I've been talking all the way through about how long term the thinking of Mantavani was. This was a guy who would be at San Vedoro for so many years to come, and not one of the stars necessarily, but sort of really hard-working, versatile player. And I think we see a lot of clubs when they're coming up trying to just sign big names and just build a team of stars, and it shows a really intelligent approach to squad building. And I think it shows a realism about the club standing and what sort of players you need to win a league title, because you need a whole squad of players, and I think that sort of attitude would have been reflected in the response to 83-84. Sampdoria had ultimately only been promoted a couple of seasons ago. So for them to be sort of a permanent fixture in the mid-table of Serie A was great. For them to be sort of pushing just up towards the UEFA Cup spots was a really fantastic achievement. And I think when the project is viewed as something that's taking place over many, many years, I don't think there would have been any panic that they weren't moving forward. I think stabilizing your spot is an achievement in and of itself because theoretically 82-83 could have been a fluke. They could finish 15th next season. So to be able to repeat that shows a really good sign.
SPEAKER_00That season, Pietro Vierkovod returned to Samptoria following his launch spell at Roma, where he won the scudetto. The Tsar is one of the symbols of this era's Samptoria. Can you describe his importance to the story and Italian culture in general?
SPEAKER_01I mean, yeah, I mean, what can I say about Virkovod? I think for me he's one of the most underrated footballers who's ever played the game. I mean, it's quite funny. He's almost like a sort of cartoonish version of a hard man, that sort of half Ukraine and his father had been in the Red Army. And I think in terms of pure defending, I'm talking tackling, blocking, speed, strength, all of these things. He don't think he was that great on the ball. But in terms of the if you want someone to defend for your life, I don't think there were many better than him. Just a sort of completely ruthless mentality to just being able to win the ball, get in the way of forwards, and he was dirty at times as well, but he was just absolutely committed and just a sort of an amazing insurance to have as a football team because you know there's if the ball comes into the box, there's a pretty decent chance Viecovo's gonna get his head to it. I think it's a big claim, but if I was putting together sort of my strongest ever Italy team, there's a pretty decent chance Viecovo to be in there. I don't think he plays as many times for Italy as of other people, but Just in terms of pure quality. He had been in the 1982 World Cup squad, but I mean Italy just had a ridiculous collection of defenders at that point. I mean, neither Vierkovod nor Franco Baresi actually got onto the pitch during that tournament, which I think shows the crazy quality that Italy had in terms of defenders. Obviously, moving forward, he would be one of the key parts of the spine of the Saint Ploria side that would end up winning the league. So you think of the classic team where it's Paliuca, Vierkovod, Sarezzo, Mancini, Viali. Vierkovod in that team was as important as anyone and would stay at the club for over a decade after returning from his loan. And I think you could make the case since he had already won the league and Mancini was still very young and very inexperienced. You could make the case that Vierkovod was the first genuinely world-class player to arrive at Sampdoria during that period. Obviously, that's completely subjective. It depends on your definition of world class. But yeah, he was a fantastically good player and one of the very best in the league already by 1983. So it was a huge, a huge boost to get him back.
SPEAKER_00And you just mentioned his longevity. I mean, he would be part of the Juventus side that won the Champions League in 1996.
SPEAKER_01If you watch that game back, he is just again the sort of relentless, relentless defending. If you watch that game back, it's just every time the ball goes up, there's Vierkov. He's just absolutely fantastic.
SPEAKER_00On a negative side, in the summer of 1984, Roberto Mancini burned his bridges with Enzo Bierzot and sidelined himself from the Squadra Azzuri. Did this damage his career with Italy despite returning when Azaleovicini came in charge in 1986?
SPEAKER_01I think yes and no. I think short term, obviously, it meant that he wouldn't be part of it. So it's short term, absolutely. Italy were defending champions at that point. And I think for Italy as well. I mean, you look at their team in Mexico and they were defending champions, a lot of the players from 1982 were still there, and they're really lacking a top quality number 10. And Mancini could have made a real difference in Mexico. Long term, I think less so. I think during the late 80s, he was the first choice number 10 anyway. So you look at Euro 88, he was absolutely central to Vicini's side. But by the time you get to 90, you have got the prospect of Roberto Baggio really starting to make a name for himself. And for all of Mancini's quality, I think having a player of Baggio's quality almost takes the decision away from the manager because you've got someone there who's a sort of once-in-a-generation talent. And I think once Baggio has really become the great star of Italian football, I mean, even though he wasn't involved for patches of the early 90s under Vicini, I think Baggio's really emerged as the great star and the key figure, as we were saying earlier about the importance of the number 10 figure as a sort of a sort of guiding light for the team. I think Mancini, for all his quality, was never going to be in that position ahead of Baggio. So by the 90s, and that's not to say Mancini didn't have a good career with Italy because he had some great moments, but I think by the 90s, Baggio was clearly the star. So I'm not sure how much it would have damaged his reputation if we're looking way, way into the future.
SPEAKER_00And let's remind everyone that the incident we were mentioning is that when the national team were touring North America, he broke curfew when the team were stationed in New York City, and Enzo Bierzo told him that he would not pick him again while he was in charge and he kept his word.
SPEAKER_01Again, with that, it's important to remember just how young Mancini was. And you've you've got at that point a very set stable and settled squad who've obviously just come off the back of winning the World Cup. You've got some sort of Titanic figures in there. I mean, Gaetana Shiray are probably the prime example of that. So to have a young, fiery, exciting talent come in and possibly show a real lack of discipline on occasion, I think it's maybe understandable for Bears as well. So yeah, it does make sense that he didn't get picked again.
SPEAKER_00Looking into the 1984-85 season and beyond, there's a new manager, Eugenio Bersellini. Were there demands for the team to be more ambitious now and make it to Europe?
SPEAKER_01I think so. I mean, we mentioned before about them the consecutive strong finishes in '83 and '84, and there was clearly a platform for the club to go and start winning trophies, or at least start competing for trophies. And I think Bersolini was certainly a very ambitious appointment for St. Barrera at that point. It's important to remember though, when St. Beria got relegated in 1977, he'd actually been with them at that point, and after that had gone off to manage Inter. And obviously Juventus were the dominant side, but he'd still managed to win the Scudetto in 1980, which was a really impressive achievement, and also he won two Coffer Italias. So in Bersolini, you've got a manager with a pedigree of winning big trophies. So maybe he isn't the biggest name anymore, but at the time he was a very ambitious appointment for a club of St. Doria's stature who had no real history of winning trophies. And yeah, I think certainly that ambition is very clear in that appointment. Because you've got to remember as well, despite the strong finishes and the platform that have been built, Saint Doria were only promoted to Serie A in 1982. So the growth of the club in terms of being a Serie B side, a consistent figure in Serie A, and then showing ambition so early is quite striking.
SPEAKER_00For the 1984-85 season, you have arrivals such as Moreno Manini from Como, who would be again one of the more important players of Sampdoria when they won the scudetto into the next decade. You have another defender, Antonio Paganin, arriving from Bologna, and also Fausto Salzano arriving from Parma. Again, another player who would be around during this era. However, Sampdoria really made his intentions clear with the signing of the former Liverpool captain, the Scottish Graham Soones, who arrived after winning the Champions Cup against AS Roma. He came to the calcio in the same summer as Diego Maradona, Socrates, Karl-Heinz Rumanigue, and Junior, among others. He came to replace Liam Brady, who departed to Inter. But also the arrival of the recently deceased Evaristo Becalosi from Inter. That was also another important addition. And also we have a certain Gianluca Viali coming on board from Cremonese. But was Sunesi's arrival particularly a statement of intent?
SPEAKER_01I think so. I mean, we mentioned earlier that about uh the signing of Liam Brady that Sam Doria was signing big names but weren't signing people who were sort of coming to the end of their career or who weren't as good as they'd been a few years earlier. And I think Sunus is absolutely huge for Sam Doria, and certainly the biggest signing they'd made up to that point. But he was still at the very top of his game. You mentioned the European Cup final against Roma. He had been absolutely dominant in that game against a Roma midfield that had Falkow and Sarezzo in. This was not some sort of over-the-hill signing that Sam Dori were picking up towards the end of his career. There's a real difference there. I mean, there have been so many sort of cult clubs over the years who've signed big names. I mean, probably in this country, you've you've got Bolton about 20 years ago, who are really famous example of a club who just picked up big names when they were towards the end of their career. But that wasn't Soonis. Soonis was really still one of the very best midfielders in the world, if not the best midfielder in the world at that point. Also just a figure you could build a team around because he was so tough and defensively brilliant as but could run a game as well. And to have a figure like that in the centre of the park would just be so important. You mentioned Becalossi as well, who sadly passed away very recently. I mean, he'd been at Inter with Bersolini and won the league with him there. So again, these are serious signs that Sampdoria making.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and Evaristo Becalossi is often mentioned as a player who really should have been kept in his career, but Bierzot never called him, I guess, because he wanted to maintain Antonioni as his number 10 and did not want to, I guess, disrupt the balance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now, this summer, a young Italian striker right from Cremonese, a certain Gianluca Viali. What was known about him at this point? And of course, if you can describe the significance of this signing, was it a deliberate attempt to unite Mancini and Viali up front to maintain this young Italian backbone?
SPEAKER_01It's important to place this in a bit of context in terms of how Viali and Mancini were viewed coming up because Mancini, right from the very start of his career, all the way up through the youth ranks, was seen as this great talent. Viali, I think, was highly regarded, but wasn't put in that same category. He had come from, he'd grown up in a very, very wealthy background near Cremona in Lombardy. I'm not sure if that aristocratic background was part of the reason he wasn't viewed, but partly because obviously he was playing for Cremonese in one of the smaller clubs, not a particularly glamorous club either. But by 1984, his performances for Cremonese had made him a very prized signing for everyone in Italy, really. He had got Cremonese promoted to Serie A, and he had a fantastic goal scoring record at Cremonese already by that stage. So Paolo Rossi was the key striker for Italy at that point, but Viali was the guy who would be the big name Italian number nine for the next few years. And just coming back to the partnership with Mancini, to have the highest-rated young Italian number 10 and the highest-rated young Italian number nine for a club like Sampdoria was so fortunate. And the fact they were so young as well, again, incredibly fortunate and shows a real intent to build a squad for the future, not just to have these players for a couple of years. Because it might not sound ridiculous for Sampedoria to have these players, but you'd think they'd head off to Inter or a UV or one of the big boys and try and earn money and win titles. So the fact they stayed together for so long was so impressive for Samp, and obviously became hugely important for them later on.
SPEAKER_00This 1984-85 season would be successful as Sampdoria finished fourth, but more importantly, won the Coppa Italia, defeating AC Milani in the final and qualified to the Cup Winners' Cup. Was this really the reference point of Sampdoria's future conquests?
SPEAKER_01I think this particular Coppa Italia title is hugely important. I think to have physical, tangible success for Mantavani would have been a huge justification for his project. And we've talked a bit earlier about how the confidence that certain achievements would have given Mantavani in terms of his ability and his willingness to finance the club going forward. So to have tangible success like this would have been hugely important. I mean the Sampadoria had been a decent Serie outside, but they had no history of winning trophies. I think they won Serie B one year, but other than that, nothing. So this was hugely impressive. And I think the fact as well that they beat Milan in the final was a signifier of their intent because obviously Milan are one of the three traditional powers. So for a club like Sampdoria to be beating them in the in the final of a major competition would have been a real sign and a real shock for Italian football that this little club was here to stay. I mean, obviously the Copper Italia is not the trophy that people are ultimately aiming for in Italian football. But for Sampdoria, it was really important, and it sounds a bit patronizing the way I'm saying it, but Sampdoria are not a big club. I think the other really notable thing about this run was the way it really demonstrated the squad building that was going on. So if you look at the top scorers for that competition, Trevor Francis was the top scorer, and Viali also scores its goals. That really demonstrates the blend of the team in that statistic alone, because you've got the old foreign stars who are sort of guiding the team, and then the youth that's beginning to sort of flower underneath them. And I think it demonstrates as well the fact that Viali, Mancini, Vierkivod, these guys would have been learning all the time from Francis and Soonis, and also Liam Brady when he was at the club, and it would have made them so much stronger as footballers for that experience.
SPEAKER_00Despite qualifying to Europe, the recruitment for the 1985-86 season was not as impressive. You have Gianfranco Matteoli coming from Como as the lone standout signing, and of course he would later join Inter and Cagliari, and he would win caps with Vicini in charge of the national team. You have a striker Giuseppe Lorenzo arriving from Catanzaro. As far as departures, you have Alessandro Renica joining Napoli, Francesco Casagrande joining Como, Evaristo Becalosi leaving the club. Now, do you think this lack of transfer activity was it due to lack of funds or was there satisfaction with an existing group?
SPEAKER_01I think probably a bit of both. I don't know exactly what was going on in Mantavani's head, but I don't know if he would have looked at the side that won the Copper Italia, seeing Soonis, Francis, Viali, Mancini, Viecovod, and thought that this side was capable of taking Sampdoria forward over the next few years. But also they had spent a lot of money, not just on players, but that the training ground would have been a huge investment for the club as well. I mean, Graham Soon is always said that one of the reasons he came to Sampdoria was financial. So there was clearly a huge investment, and yeah, I think there was almost certainly an idea that the squad was sufficient for the next couple of years at least, and they could probably take their foot off the gas slightly. But I think 85-86 certainly dispelled any of those notions pretty quickly. I mean, they were only four points off relegation, having been a sort of real success story in their time in Serie A up to that point. But they also failed in the Cup Winners' Cup. And I think not only was it a reminder that you always need renewal in a football club, but also if you want to be competing on two or three fronts, so the League Cup and also potentially a European competition, you really need a significant squad of players who can be rotated in and out over the course of the season. But I think Francis and Soonis were kind of coming to the end. I think Francis only played 14 games in the league that season and only scored once. So I think it was probably a sign that certain players needed to be moved on, and Francis did end up leaving that summer. And you know, ultimately they avoided relegation and got away with it and were able to build the the following year, but it it was certainly a bump in the road.
SPEAKER_00Yes, after three solid seasons, this uh 1985-86 season was disappointing. As you said, Samptoria finished 11th, just above the relegation zone. We're talking like 16 team Serie A around this time. In Europe in the Cup Winners' Cup, they reached a second round where they were eliminated by Benfica. They did reach the final of the Coppa Italia again for the second year running, though they lost to Roma. And Bersellini ended his time with a club after this. Like you mentioned, there may have been I don't want to say error, but maybe lack of recruitment, more depth, perhaps, and also there was stress from playing in Europe, or simply it could have just been end of a cycle for certain players.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's it's a combination of things. France is was sort of coming to the end, really, as a top-level player, as soon as it was aging. And when you combine the fact that you are coming to the end of the cycle with a lot of aging players, with the fact you're now competing on three fronts, that makes things incredibly difficult. And it makes sense, in a way, when you put those factors together and look at it sort of logically with the big picture in mind, it makes sense that this was a bit of an off-season for Sampdoria.
SPEAKER_00Gianluca Vialli was certainly under a rise and seen as the future of Italy, and he did make the 1986 a World Cup squad playing in Mexico. At what point did it become obvious that Viali Mancini duo was effective and here to stay?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think we've we've already spoken a bit about how having the two of the most highly rated prospects in Italian football, as the number nine and number ten for Sampdoria, was a real coup for a club that wasn't at all one of the traditional powers. And I think for Mantavani to have them together was a huge justification for him and a real sort of a treasured prize for him, I think, and a sign that what he was doing was right and what he was doing was worth investing in going forward. But I think the fact they got on so well and would do so until Lucas Saddi passed away really sort of underlines the fact that they could be kept together and that Sampedoria could afford to build around them and commit to a future with both of them in the side. And I think that might seem slightly naive to say that their friendship had a real impact, but I really think it did in terms of keeping them together.
SPEAKER_00In these early years back in the Serie A, the strategy on foreign players was based on British players. And I say this even though I realize that Liam Brady from Republic of Ireland is not considered British. Yeah. So in general, they performed well in a time when there was a history of British players failing to adapt in the Serie A for decades. We can go back to Jimmy Greaves, etc., of English players who would not make it in the serie AR. Was there something unique to Genoa and Sampdoria that made this possible?
SPEAKER_01I think it may be slightly harsh. I mean, you look at sort of Ray Wilkins and Mark Haley at Milan, and also going way back to John Charles at Juventus in the 50s. But I think it's certainly true that compared to other countries in Europe, British players don't do well abroad and try to avoid going abroad whenever they can, it seems like. I think for Sounus he was really enamoured with Italy and Genoa as a city. I mentioned earlier that the financial aspect he's mentioned that that was a reason for him going. Obviously, Italy was the richest league at that point, which in turn meant that the best players were playing in Italy. And I think there was also an attraction for Sounus to be competing against the very best players in the world, which he was able to do. And obviously, the atmosphere at Sampdoria also played a part. I think it was when you read about what players thought about playing for Sampdoria, it always feels like a very pleasant family atmosphere. Mentioned the friendship between Viali and Mancini. But I think Sounis, I mean, we always think of Sunis as a sort of real tough guy, but I think Soonis was really touched by the friendly atmosphere. He was incredibly close. Close with Viali. Actually, I remember when Luca Viali died a few years ago. I was watching Sky Sports News and they interviewed Graham Soonas on there, and he was in floods of tears. And it was really touching to see a a guy who was as tough as Soonis be so emotional about Viali. So I think the financial side was important, obviously, but the atmosphere at Sampdoria was something you very rarely see in football, where you've got a squad that's not only successful, but also very close and very, very familial, I think.
SPEAKER_00In addition, the foreign players, even in the future years, tended to be players with experience and in some cases with serie A experience. Was Mantovani proven right in this effective strategy?
SPEAKER_01I think certainly, if you look long-term, you can't argue with what Saint Doris ended up winning. But I think there's a very there are three very clear stratifications of Saint Doria's transfer strategy. So you've got the proven stars with experience of winning, obviously Sunis, Brady, Francis, Becolossi as well, to be fair. And you've got the sort of up-and-coming Italian stars, Viali, Mancini, Viecovod. And then supplementing those glamorous categories, you've got the really unglamorous category, where it's players who would often end up being members of the league title winning side, who would be reliable, hardworking, fit, so Fausto Pari, Moreno Manini, people like that. And they would maybe they didn't have the most Serie A experience or top-level Serie A experience, but they would have experience of Serie A generally speaking. So even if they weren't the most talented, they could apply their talents very effectively because they knew the league. I think to be honest, it's almost more to do with Juventus's situation than Viali's. I think given the fact Mancini stayed after 1992, I don't think it was inevitable that Viali would go. Sampdori still had a very good squad after Viali left. But I think Juventus really struggled for many, many years to replace Paolo Rossi. You look at the signing of Ian Rush, which was a bit of a disaster, Altabelli as well. So to have a player like Viali who was clearly the best young Italian striker, he became a natural target. I think 1990 was the key turning point. Because you look at Italy's strikers at the World Cup, you've got Viali who failed undeniably, and Scalacci who won the golden boot and was hugely successful. But from that point onwards, Schilacci really failed to kick on and become a real success at Juventus. And Viali goes and wins the league the next year and sort of fulfills his potential. I think from that point where Schilacci starts to tail off and Viali becomes the best, I think it becomes the natural signing. Juventus have the invested so much in Roberto Baggio that they needed to back him up with other top players. And ultimately Juventus are the biggest club in the country. They can afford to spend money that Sampdoria can't match. And I think certainly after the 1990-11 season, that became the likeliest outcome.
SPEAKER_00The Coppa Italia would be a specialty for Sampdoria in this decade. Why do you think the club did so well in this competition in this decade with different managers?
SPEAKER_01I think obviously they were still very much in the building process, and winning a league title is difficult in and of itself. But winning a league title where you're competing in the first half of the decade against Trappotoni's Juve, and by the end of the decade, Berlusconi's Milan, it's the I mean, we're talking two of the great sides of all time. I think it becomes almost impossible. But we've been through so many of the players, there's so much talent in the Sampdoria squad. And in cup competitions, it's obviously knockout, so you need moments rather than necessarily consistency. And to have so much talent, particularly going forward, you've got so many different players who could provide moments. These weren't necessarily players in their prime, they were, as we're saying, either either young Italian players or coming towards the end of their careers, but they were still capable of doing big things in big moments, and there's less requirement for a large, adaptable squad to win a cup compared to a league. So you could far more feasibly win a trophy with a smaller squad dotted with a few stars, which is what Sampdoria had at this point.
SPEAKER_00This setback in 1986 could have derailed Sampdoria's ambitions and begin a descent. Was Mantovani's success in keeping the backbone together as a new manager was coming along, Vuodin Boskov, to begin a new cycle with Viali and Mancini as its standard bearers?
SPEAKER_01Certainly. I don't think it would have fallen apart completely, but it could have gone in a very different direction had different decisions been made. I think, first of all, it was really important for Sampbero to hold on to Viali. And it was, I mentioned the signing of Ian Rush at Juventus. It was probably lucky that that signing happened that summer because Viali would have been a very attractive option had that signing not happened. Also, it was probably quite lucky that Mancini didn't go to the World Cup, and he had that falling out with Bearsot. Because the World Cup's always been a sort of shop window for the best up-and-coming talents. So Mancini's reputation wouldn't necessarily have suffered hugely from not going, but it wouldn't have improved, it wouldn't have made him any more attractive as a signing. And I think Mantavani really seized the moment in 1986. I think he one of his skills was recognising big moments, and he certainly recognised the importance of rebuilding the squad in 1986. So you've you've got players going out, you've got Francis Soonis, Gallia Bourdon, and it was vitally important that they were well replaced. And you look at the quality of players they brought in, and it was clear that that happened. You've got Serezzo, Brigle, Luca Fusi, and Gianluca Paliuca signed at this point as well. And what you've got forming after this summer is the spine of a team that I mentioned earlier that would take Sampdoro to its greatest height. So you've you've now got together in the same squad Paliuca, Virkovod, Sarezzo, Mancini, and Viali. And having a strong spine like that is so important. You can almost mix and match with which players you put around it as long as you've got the core of that team. And Sampdoro already have this, and that was hugely important. And it was a really looking back, it was a hugely impressive transfer window.
SPEAKER_00In an interview with Onze Mondial magazine in 1992, Gianluca Viali stated that Mantovani's courage was in building a team around young talent like himself and Mancini when it was fashionable to sign foreign strikers. He said that it was courageous also for him and Mancini to stay at Sampdoria, as life would have been so much easier had both left and joined one of the top clubs. Is this also part of the club's romantic story?
SPEAKER_01I think so. I mean, it it sounds slightly sappy to say it, but it is a hugely romantic story, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a Sampdoria fan. I think their friendship and the friendship of the team ever since is a really heartwarming story. And you look at Serie A by that by that point, you're about to go into the era of the three Dutchmen at Milan, the three Germans at Inter. Juventus had a slightly odd period where they signed a load of players from the USSR who didn't quite work out. But all of the big clubs are going down this very particular route of signing three big foreign stars to build their team around, often from the same country. So for Fiali and Mancini to be together at Sampdoria, I think it's brave of Mantavani. I also think it's really clever because there was a very clear, fashionable direction that teams were going in. And Mantavani was brave and clever in saying, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna stick with with Italian players. Obviously, he was massively justified in that in a couple of years' time, but I think it probably would have avoided spending big money on different players as well, and obviously they had such an amazing relationship, were fantastic players in their own right, that Sampdoria were very lucky to have them. And I think it was you can almost see this whole story of Sampdoria as things falling into place at the right time, which I suppose adds to the romance of it. But we mentioned earlier when the two of them signed and were put together for the first time in 1984, for Sampdoria to have them was hugely fortunate. For them to stay together for eight years was a dream, really. And again, it's a testament to their friendship and the atmosphere at Sampdoria, which again contributes to the whole sort of romance of the story.
SPEAKER_00In closing, as we come to the summer of 1986, what was the consensus regarding Mantovani's Sampdoria as we reached to the crossroads of this great Sampdoria story?
SPEAKER_01I think looking at it from the outside, you would have seen a club that had been promoted, been successful in Serie A, picked up a Copp Italia, and you probably wouldn't have thought that much more about it. I mean, there have been a lot of teams that have finished high up in Serie A for a couple of seasons, picked up a couple or two, and then sort of faded away into the background. But we mentioned the strength of the 1986 transfer window. Mantavani really showed his intent in that window that he wanted success and he was prepared to spend for it. I think Serezzo we'll probably discuss at some point. But I mean, just to talk about his signing, I mean, it's it was hugely impressive for them to sign Soonus in in 1984 when Soonis was arguably the best midfielder in the world. To then go out and sign Serezzo, who was also arguably the best midfielder in the world. This is really, really clever transfer business, but it shows real ambition as well, particularly as we're saying, for a club like Sampdoria, who isn't one of the traditional powers. And I I think from that point onwards it's clear that Sampdoria are going to be here to stay, and that Mantavani wants to take this project forward over the next few years.
SPEAKER_00With that, I would like to thank you for your participation in this interview. And of course, in future episodes, we'll continue and discuss this romantic Sampdoria story in the Italian calcio serie of the 80s and 90s. And to remind everyone that all our respective contact information is listed on a blog and podcast uploads. So Luca, thank you once again and hope to continue this discussion on football history.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. Can't wait for the next chat. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.