Disability Employment with Doug Goist- Part 1

Doug Goist wasn't born blind, however during his high school days, while playing sports he started to see it fading away. Listen in as I sit down with Doug and talk about his journey through O& M training and how he uses his disability to create employment ability for thousands every year.  With his years of experience and work with the National Industries for the Blind and NSITE, Doug and his team are changing the views for candidates with blindness and educating employers to become more inclusive.

Website:  https://nsite.org/
LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-goist-656b3228/?miniProfileUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afs_miniProfile%3AACoAAAXcyCIBsWHvUSlFnji6HkCmKGFgGH8__rw

Want to be a guest on our show?  Connect with us at: https://www.abilitiesinmotion.org/podcast
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AbilitiesinMotionPA
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/abilitiesinmotion/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/BerksCountyCIL?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/instaaim/

Transcript

Intro: 0:03

Welcome to DisAbility Talks, a podcast produced by Abilities in Motion. I'm your host, Shelly Houser. Join us for real conversations and no nonsense talk from everyday people with disabilities, living their most independent everyday lives. Tune in for the latest news surrounding disability, accessibility and independence. Where conversations aren't dissed and stories that need to be told aren't missed. So let's talk.

Shelly: 0:30

Thanks for joining DisAbility Talks. I am your host Shelly Houser. And today my guest is Doug Goist. He is the Program Manager for workforce development at NSITE in Virginia. He has worked with the Department of Defense and other military and federal agencies for the last 10 years. He has led a panel discussion with MIT and has spoken with fortune about how COVID-19 is changing the workplace for persons with blindness rethinking employment options for us will affect 49 million Americans with disabilities. And Doug is here to discuss that today. Welcome Doug. Thanks for being on the show,

Doug: 1:04

Shelly I really appreciate your invitation. Um, it's always great to be able to spread the word on the importance of addressing disabilities in this case blindness. So, um, thank you for having me.

Shelly: 1:16

Absolutely. It's my pleasure. So we had connected maybe about a year ago and have stayed in touch and the more I've dug into your history and your background, you've had an enormous background, quite extensive of all the work that you've done with military and federal agents and MIT and so many more, which we'll get into soon. But I wanted to start basically from the very, very beginning when you were still a senior in high school and you had your site, correct?

Doug: 1:45

That is correct. I did have my s ight. And, u m,

Shelly: 1:51

And what happened then?

Doug: 1:52

Well, it's kind of like the cliched American normal so-called normal upbringing. You know, I have a brother, sister, uh, parents, and we had two dogs and, um, we're all very active. We're all career oriented as far as, as just, you know, doing the right things and progressing up in being a productive member of society and, uh, tied to that was our passion in sports. So frankly, my, my father is our hero really he's he, he was an incredible athlete. He was an all American football player drafted by the Detroit lions. He, he never went in fact, he's, he still owns his high school track record that has stood for 70 years and his hurdles record stood for 50 years. But anyway, so he's our heroes. So my brother and I and sister were all very active in sports. My brother and I were basketball players. His team was ranked first in the state. My team was ranked fifth and we're four years apart. But anyway, my senior year I was playing four or five sports and I noticed I seem to be getting worse from my junior year. So in baseball, that was, uh, I would, I couldn't see, I lose track of where the ball was in the air. It was under my feet. I didn't see it during a game runners around running around the bases, but I most noticed it in basketball. I, um, was colliding with my teammates. I was called out of bounds once, and I was looking at the ref, like, what are you talking about? And I looked down at my foot and it was definitely out of bounds. So things like that were happening. And I, I thought I need to either see a brain specialist or something.

Shelly: 3:38

What exactly is your diagnosis with your loss of sight?

Doug: 3:44

It's um, it's, uh, inherited retinal degeneration called retinitis pigmentosa. Um, I wouldn't say all of a lot of the times, but it's primarily, there's a family member with it. My parents both happen to be carriers, which is one in apparently one in 88, 0 people carry this recessive gene and they were both one in 80 and the chances of their child having it, it was one in four and I'm the third of three. So there's no, there's no treatment or cure.

Shelly: 4:18

So we all struggle as persons with disabilities, millions of us with employment. And even though the ADA has been around for what, 31 years this year? I think title one of the ADA, which covers employment really was the biggest part of the ADA that didn't stick. Would you agree with that?

Doug: 4:38

Yeah, it's I would. And I guess the good news is, um, the fact that there's an, even an ADA at all. Um, it's been 31 years now. Um, and frankly, um, as I was losing vision, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a, uh, wasn't even really on the radar. So, you know, it's, it's, it's definitely getting better, but obviously in the employment, um, area, uh, there's a lot of talks obviously rightfully about diversity and equity and inclusion, but it, I hear it over and over and over again. When I, when I hear people using the, the, the list of kind of diversity measures, they kind of trail off when they get to disability and sometimes it's not even addressed. It's, it's all of the other areas are addressed, but disability often gets left off in the kind of, we feel left out a little bit.

Shelly: 5:39

I, and I agree with that because I recently talked to an agency that was looking for disability and inclusion consultant. And when I brought up accessibility and disability, they were like, well, that's not what we meant. I'm like, well, that's a huge part of, it's not just, you know, this community, the colored community or LGBT community or eight elderly, you know, older community of workers, but it absolutely is. So what's the statistic of persons with disabilities that are employed versus unemployed in the United States. Do you have that statistic?

Doug: 6:16

I think it's a, it's a good question. And I think that's a combination of all, all of what you mentioned. So I think it's, um, mostly a lack of awareness because, um, honestly when, uh, when I was fully sighted prior to my diagnosis, I, I, I had no, absolutely no concept of what it was like to be blind or what it even meant or what people could do. So, um, because I, I never came across anyone or maybe if I did, I, I just never had the opportunity to interact with somebody and then, and that goes with other disabilities as well. So I think it's, I think it's a comfort level that may be some that a hiring manager, you know, they're, they're just trying to find the right person. And so nobody wants to feel uncomfortable. So if somebody comes in with a wheelchair or white cane, or what have you, and they're not prepared to ask the questions that they asked everyone else, and they're afraid to say the wrong thing, um, for fear of reprisal, potentially, I think that's there, that's where some of the hesitation is. And then the biggest hesitation, at least for blindness is, um, uh, real perceived, lack of, uh, lack of, um, uh, lowered, basically lowered expectation of somebody because preconceived in your mind, you're like, well, you're blind. I mean, how are you going to do this job without ever asking the person how they'll be able to do the job it's written off?

Shelly: 7:56

So where's that disconnect with employers versus persons with any kind of disability that can work? You know, some of us have master's degree, doctorate degrees, we worked for 10, 15, 20 years.

Doug: 8:12

Yeah. And it's obviously a case by case basis because I always make the point that I, every, everyone wants everyone I think is good and, and at heart in nature, and they want to give people chances. Um, there may be cases where, um, frankly, they, in the past, they gave somebody an opportunity who didn't work out or that person threatened maybe legal litigation, um, maybe deservingly, maybe undeservingly and they just don't, you know, they had, let's just say they had a bad experience with somebody. So that's why I know at insight, when we talk with job candidates, it's like, um, you have to have this awareness going in that, um, you know, you are your, you are the pioneer here and potentially, so if they have a good experience with you, they're going to be way more open to hiring more people behind you. So, so it's both sides, you know?

Shelly: 9:15

Right. Absolutely. So does your company insight, help employers work through this challenge?

Doug: 9:25

We do. So, you know, our primary mission is we, we call it talent management, connecting and corporate employers in the, you know, in the private sector with talented people who are visually impaired and blind. So on the corporate side, our corporate partners. So what we offer is we have a job board called, Insight Connect that we have candidates in the resumes and profiles that we have there. And then we also offer them that conversation in that analysis of coming into their, their companies and looking at their job positions, they may have employees with disabilities, blindness, or low vision. And we tell them, we show them the little things, not the major things in most cases that they can do to help, help that employee succeed. And then for our job candidates that they want to hire, we assist the company and onboarding that person, showing them exactly what they need, looking at their platforms and systems and saying, Hey, this system could be adjusted a little bit. It's not very accessible the way it is, or if it's totally accessible, we have that consulting piece of it as well. We, we actually are working with companies actively right now doing assessments and feedback on their own technologies, especially

Shelly: 10:50

From a candidate's perspective, how do you help them identify their disability on the resume and help them go through the interview, proving their, their quality of work without mentioning their disability since it's an off the table discussion at that point?

Doug: 11:13

Yeah. You know, that is probably the biggest question mark that, uh, I know I experienced it after vision loss because I point and click with a mouse my way through my resume and made it look pretty, you know, and did all of the neat little, little things on it. And, and then when I lost vision, I'm like, I can do all of these, this video production work and all of these other things, but I can't really do that now. So, um, what do I put on there? So my recommendation, at least personally, and I think it just in general insights, attitude that focus on the job position, making sure that you are skilled with, with each of the duties, whatever requirements those are, if it's Microsoft office and you need your, you want an accounting job, you'd better know county, you better know Excel and formulas, but as far as do I have a guide dog or I use a white cane, or I use a screen reading technology, I don't think that's necessary for that resume because it, you don't want to give the potential employer when you're competing against a hundred other people, 50 or 30. You don't want to give that potential. It's not a negative, but it's just kind of a question mark in that, in that hiring manager's mind. So at that point, it's, it shouldn't be front and center your disability. So when you get to the job interview, you know, we recommend that you put it out upfront to the person interviewing you. You sit there for instance, you're walking with a white cane and you sit down, I would say, look, I am visually impaired, obviously I'm blind. And I just wanted to allay any concerns you may have about how I'm able to do this position. Here's how I do work and then kind of rattle off what you're able to do. And, and as long as you do that with confidence and positivity, I think that goes a long way.

Shelly: 13:23

It sounds like what you're saying is maybe leading that conversation, even though technically it's off the table for the employer interviewing, but just let them know that you're confident and capable candidate and then move on and lead by example.

Doug: 13:38

Absolutely. Because if neither party addresses there, there's going to be that question of, well, I'm really not sure how that person can do it budget, but if you come in there and you say that I've been doing budgeting for family's business for two years, you know, and this is what I do with Excel and so forth. And you don't have to get into the details of exactly how your technology works, but it's that message of commanding respect and not kind of demanding respect. It's that there's a definite difference between that. And coming out empowered and positive is it really goes along.

Shelly: 14:16

What I've seen with on various social media platforms that the younger generations, 20 early 30 generations, they're taking a lot of pride in their disability and with employment. And they're really just putting it out there, flat on the table, dragging that elephant and shoving it out of the room. And it's quite impressive because I don't know about you, but I was in college when the ADA came out. So it's great to see that there's a lot more of pride and empowerment with the younger generations getting into the employment. And I really hope that kind of pushes employers to become more comfortable in having that conversation and exploring adaptive of ways of, of working with persons with disabilities on their staff, because we are natural born problem solvers. And you, especially more so than me. I think that the world wasn't built for us necessarily in some ways, but we, we figure a lot of things out and I think maybe you having sight and then losing it later in life is much different than me being born the way I was that you, you had to get real creative in, in learning to, to get on with your cane or, or whatever. And that's one thing I wanted to talk about. You trained for your O and M in, in Virginia, but before we started the conversation, you said you actually started learning some basic skills in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Doug: 15:47

I did learn, uh, orientation, mobility, and frankly, adjustment to blindness, um, back in Ohio where I live, but I took the, the training in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but I just wanted to make, um, people with disabilities who may be listening to this, especially people with vision impairment who may be losing vision. Then I did not handle this very well. And I'm the first to admit it. I was very stubborn. I, uh, was getting calls from this particular training center and I was ignoring them for two or three weeks because I just, I couldn't, I still had pretty good central vision. My peripheral vision was really going, and I just did not want to be, I didn't want to accept that I would need a cane and so forth. So, um, I finally just kind of kicked my, my own rear end and, and ended up, um, going to this training, which ended up being four months in, in dormitory training, uh, ended up really loving it. Um, but I'll just give you a quick story of, um, when things really kind of dawned on me when, uh, it was one of my first mobility, white cane trips, and I still had a little bit of vision. So they would blind for me. Um, my mobility instructor, just to make sure, but I was, it was early morning and I was walking down the sidewalk and there was a person. Um, apparently he was around my age and he was kind of shaking his keys, but he was walking behind me and he was, uh, he was headed obviously to his job. And, um, because he, he, he jumped in the car next to me as I was walking on the sidewalk after he was walking behind me, but I had this panic attack because that was me only cause I stopped driving like two years earlier. So, um, that's when I realized that this was my new vehicle and then I'm not, I'm never going to be able to do that. So, um, so it was difficult at the beginning, but I honestly, I wish I used the cane earlier because I have scars all over my shins from me being stubborn.

Shelly: 17:56

They're warrior wounds. Oh dear. Yeah,

Doug: 18:01

Absolutely. It was, um, my, my own, um, perception of what other people thought of me. I cared way too much about that. And then you just have to realize it's not what other people think is none of your business. And once you're able to do that, it's like, oh, I don't have to stress out about this.

Shelly: 18:20

In growing up in the decades that I did, I can say that it wasn't cool to hang out with the disabled child in the school. So I had a lot of, I think, anxiety growing up and it took me until almost 30 to just say, you know what, it's, it's not my problem. It's your problem. And you need to either get over it or move on or whatever, or sit down and have a conversation with me and learn because one in four Americans have some sort of mental or physical disability and it will find you eventually. So it's, it's, it's challenging. Do you feel it since obviously you've lived with your blindness for a couple of years, decades or whatever, do you feel you would be the same person today if you still had your site or do you think you're better off that you've learned some good, valuable lessons?

Doug: 19:20

I think, um, well, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a brain twister just because

Shelly: 19:29

(laughter) I know that's not on the list because, but it's something I thought of. So how is it for you?

Doug: 19:35

You know, and, and that's something that I, I definitely have thought of because when I went to that Pittsburgh back then it was skilled for the blind, a Pittsburgh division services. That was the first time I'd been around people with vision impairment in a large group. So people of all different walks of life. And I was sitting at the lunch table and I didn't know anyone. And there was an older gentleman and an older woman sitting across from me and he was an oxygen tent. Um, I guess you'd call it mishap where he, he was, he never had vision. And he said, wow, that must be really difficult. That two years ago you were driving and now you're, you know, you're here. And I said, well, it is. And, and he said, yeah, it's interesting that people think just because I've never seen that, I don't miss something. Like, just because in other words, you don't miss what you never had. And he said, no, I want what everyone else has. So having been on the side of vision, in fact, I took a, u h, i t's a whole other story. I took a, a y ear r ail trip around Europe to see all of the Sistine chapel, t he C oliseum, t he Louve, the art pieces all the way out to Budapest, Hungary getting all of that information i n visually before potentially. I lost vision that, that now that I don't have vision, I think the positive is I am not obviously the person. I don't think I would be the same person with vision because my goals were all different back then. I watched all of my friends really succeed and really kind of be Titans of the world as far as what their employment success and things like that. And I thought that was what was most important. U h, whereas now I just, I just have this whole other perspective that, u m, you know, doing things and getting things and acquiring things are not important. You know, as long as you're able to get one day further than you were in the past. So, and maybe S helly you've experienced this too. It's like, you don't... You don't always have good days. And a lot of times when you're getting into y our, maybe some bad thinking is when you're projecting the future, that you should be at this point and you're not succeeding v ersus I've found it h elp, helpful to go, wow, this w as where I was 15, 20 years ago. And this is where I am now look, look at the progress I've made from a point when I didn't think I could do anything or anyone w ho would hire me or, y ou k now, t hat, that type of thinking. So it's, I think it's a positive and negative, well, not really negative. I think the thing t hat I m iss out on most, o r just, just my memories of being able to jump in the car and opening the windows and taken off and going to the beach or, you know, just without having to p replan.

Shelly: 22:34

So Doug, thank you so much for your time and attention and all this wonderful information. And to my listeners thanks for listening in today. Be sure to join us next week on the 17th to listen to part two with Doug Goist and be sure to hit that Like and subscribe button. So you never miss an episode of DisAbility Talks.

Music: 23:11

[inaudible]

Outro: 23:15

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of DisAbilityTalks. Want to keep the conversation going? Then visit our website at Abilitiesinmotion.org, or connect with us on social media. And remember don't dis my ability.