Finding Hope After Pregnancy & Infant Loss: An Intimate Discussion with Sarah Cox

Finding Hope: A Discussion on Infertility, Loss, and Healing

In this conversation Sarah Cox shares her personal journey with infertility, pregnancy loss, and her subsequent healing process. Sarah's inspiring story takes us through her struggles with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS), successful pregnancy via fertility treatment, coping with the loss of her daughter Jasmine, and eventual birth of her 'rainbow' and 'pot of gold' children. She emphasizes the importance of seeking support and communication, highlighting the healing effects of sharing one's experience. Sarah also introduces her Project Finding Your Rainbow and her podcast 'Finding Hope After Loss,' initiatives that raise awareness and provide support to other women experiencing infant loss, infertility, and similar challenges.

02:13 Sarah's Personal Journey Through Loss

07:30 Understanding the Emotional Impact of Loss

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Transcript

[00:00:42] Mel: Hello and thank you so much for tuning in to another episode on the Herbalist's Path. I am really, really excited to bring today's guest to you. Her name is Sarah Cox and I was on her Finding Hope After Loss [00:01:00] podcast a while ago.

And listening to Sarah's story is really important, really beautiful. She also empowers other women to share their stories. And it's not like the typical guests that I have on this show, but I think it's so relevant to so many mamas out there, and we're going to talk about topics that may be painful to some, but are certainly not talked about.

And now, so Sarah again is the host of Finding Hope After Loss podcast and she really helps raise awareness around the loss of babies and infertility and so many issues that women go through. and often feel that they're alone. So she's going to speak so much better about it through her stories and everything that she shares and the stories of other women she [00:02:00] shares on her podcast.

So Sarah, I'm so glad we are finally connecting and getting to do this show. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you 

[00:02:10] Sarah: so much 

[00:02:11] Mel: for having me. 

[00:02:13] Sarah's Personal Journey Through Loss

[00:02:13] Mel: Yeah, yeah, your work is, again, as I was just saying, it's so incredibly important, there are, I don't even know the number, you probably know the number of how many women have experienced loss of their infants, whether during pregnancy or recently after pregnancy, things along those lines, so, I'd just love to hear a little bit about you, and what it is that you do, and 

[00:02:42] Sarah: why, Okay, so, I mean, just basics about me, um, I'm 36, I'm originally from Texas, uh, we moved to Georgia, um, about 3 years ago, it was literally like 2 months before the pandemic hit, so that was interesting to me, in a brand new place, and then, you Everything shut down.

Oh, [00:03:00] no. Yeah, that would be wild. And then, um, yeah, for, for my full time job, I do, um, taxes and bookkeeping. Fun stuff everybody loves. I 

[00:03:10] Mel: need you!

[00:03:14] Sarah: So, um, yeah, and then I've been married to my husband since 2011 and we have three living children and we have a daughter in heaven. Um, we went through infertility. I have PCOS, which is polycystic ovarian syndrome. It basically means I don't have regular cycles. I don't ovulate regularly and that.

Obviously makes it hard to get pregnant. Right. Um, we kind of did off and on, um, fertility treatment throughout our journey to get pregnant. Um, we didn't have to go IVF, but we did like other injectable medications and, um, did try it in IUI, like things like that. Um, and yeah, I had my, so we did fertility treatment.

It failed. I got pregnant, um, naturally the cycle after. [00:04:00] And yeah, so then when he was two, we decided we were going to try again, um, I actually got pregnant on my own, but had a early loss known as a chemical pregnancy, which is just like super early. Like you get a positive test and then like. A day or two later, like it's negative.

Like it's just such a quick thing. Like it wasn't even confirmed by the doctors, but you still get that positive test, right? And so then, um, yeah, a few months went by, we did, um, fertility treatment. One of the cycles worked, but it ended in a miscarriage. We never saw, um, a heartbeat with that one. And, um, actually my, so when you have a loss, they monitor your, Um, H H C G levels, and that's your pregnancy hormone, and so my levels were dropping, but then all of a sudden they started, um, rising again, [00:05:00] so they said, well it could be ectopic, it could be just like retained tissue, we don't know, so I had to have a shot of methotrexate, which is, um, kind of a, um, it's, um, um, What's the name of it?

Like a radiation kind of drug because it had to clear out anything that was remaining in there. So, um, had to kind of be put on hold for three months. We couldn't try again. Um, so yeah, we waited the three months, did another cycle. It failed. Cycle after I got pregnant on my own with my daughter Jasmine and her, she's stillbirth at 32 weeks.

At the 13 week appointment, we found out she had what's known as a congenital diaphragmatic hernia, or CDH, and it basically means there's a hole in her diaphragm, and it allows her other organs to push up into the chest cavity, pushes the lungs over, pushes the heart over, um, and it restricts the lung growth.

[00:06:00] So, you know, we were kind of told, okay, 50 50 chance that she would make it based on this. Long story short, we met with a specialist that we were going to relocate to who had success with doing the surgery on CDH babies, like had a lot of success, but we hit another roadblock and found out that she had mosaic trisomy 15, which is extremely rare, even rarer than the CDH and basically We kind of didn't know what that would mean for her.

Um, mosaic trisomy is like full trisomy means every single cell in your body has that extra DNA in it. If it's mosaic trisomy, some of the cells have the extra and some of the cells don't. So it's hard to say. which cells in which part of the body have that extra in it and which didn't. So she could have, you know, the heart could be highly impacted and maybe the liver isn't or, you know, it's just kind of hard.

They can't tell like where [00:07:00] those cells are basically. And so, um, you know, our plan was still relocate, still try to do that. Um, but ultimately, um, we lost her at 32 weeks. And then, you know, fast forward six months and we did fertility treatments, got pregnant with my rainbow daughter. She was born healthy.

And then, um, up to date, last year I had a surprise pregnancy and had my, um, third daughter, so that's kind of our story in a 

[00:07:29] Mel: nutshell. 

[00:07:30] Understanding the Emotional Impact of Loss

[00:07:30] Mel: What a journey, that, it sounds like an emotional rollercoaster to say the least, like. Definitely. A lot of struggle, a lot of joy, a lot of sadness, a lot of confusion, 

[00:07:45] Sarah: like. I always say pregnancy loss, it's just one of those, it's like every emotion that hits you all at once at the same time and it's just like, you know, just every single emotion, like, imaginable, I probably thought of at some point in that 

[00:07:58] Mel: journey.

Yeah, [00:08:00] I bet you did. What, like, what are some of the, I know you talk with a lot of other moms and how a lot of moms process this challenge and the struggles and the emotions and this, Yeah. Yeah. I'm really curious. Maybe it's not the right question to ask, but what are some of the most common emotions that you see among all the moms that have experienced 

[00:08:31] Sarah: a loss?

I think that's a great question, actually. Um, some of the emotions can actually be pretty surprising. Um, because obviously we're going to feel the sadness and the grief. That's, you know, that's a given. Um, a lot of anger. You know, why did this happen? Um, a lot of guilt, like, did I do something to cause this?

We all blame ourselves, even though, here to tell you, loss is never your fault, but we all blame ourselves. Um, and then another one that I find, you know, surprising that I dealt with myself, [00:09:00] is jealousy. Because you're jealous of, you know, those who, not that you want people to go through loss, but you're just kind of jealous of those who haven't been through it.

Like, I want to be that person, you know, um, but yeah, I think those are the most, the most common ones and, you know, um, like worry to like, what if I'm not able to get pregnant again? What if I lose another 

[00:09:23] Mel: baby? You know? Yeah. 

[00:09:25] Sarah: Yeah. I think those are the most, the most common ones. 

[00:09:29] Mel: Absolutely, understandably so, like, I, I imagine I would feel the same way, and as you talked about loss, I was like, oh, I haven't experienced that, I'm really lucky, and then I realized that my mom did, and it makes me wonder, like, did she ever get to process that?

Did she ever get to feel that? And I'm, I'm pretty sure she never did, you know, and I'd love to hear a little bit, gosh, it's so much to process, right? Like, do you ever fully process it? I'd [00:10:00] just love to hear a little bit about that journey and how you've been able to work through the guilt and the anger and the sadness and the grief.

It's so much. 

[00:10:14] Sarah: Yeah, it definitely is. And, um, she was born in 2018. So, you know, she would have been five this year. So obviously I found this year, um, to hit really hard because she should have been starting kindergarten. So it was kind of a hard year. Um, and I've had, I mean, five years is a lot, but it's also not a lot when you think about it.

Um, so for me, it's been just time, like, I wouldn't say the grief ever goes away, but you do kind of learn how to, how to live with it and how to just manage it in your life. 

[00:10:46] The Healing Power of Shared Experiences

[00:10:46] Sarah: So, um, I've been lucky that I had, um, so I have supportive family and friends, but, you know, even, even when you have support, like loss is just a really lonely time.

So I found that reaching out and connecting with [00:11:00] other. Lost families has been like the most helpful thing because they know exactly how you're feeling. They don't judge you for how you're feeling, you know, and then kind of my path led me to, you know, helping other lost families. And that's been extremely beneficial for me because not only am I helping other people heal, but it's healing me at the same time.

[00:11:20] Mel: Yeah. That's really beautiful. What you are doing with your podcast, with your project, Finding Your Rainbow, with helping all of these other moms and I would love for you to dish out what you do with all of that and share because I'm pretty confident there are women and moms listening to this that have dealt with loss and are probably going to Still feeling that grief and never really had the opportunity to process it like my mom.

[00:11:54] Sarah: Yeah, and that's made me really sad that there are people who have not been able to talk about it for [00:12:00] whatever reason, whether it's, you know, because they were part of a prior generation that didn't talk about it, or even now our generation is talking about it more, but it's still not like something everybody's comfortable.

you know, talking about. So nobody wants to 

[00:12:13] Mel: face 

[00:12:14] Sarah: the sad. Yes. And I mean, I get it. Like, you know, the thought of losing a child is just, Like, it's so uncomfortable that nobody wants to think about it, and I'm like, yeah, but we didn't want to think about it either, but here we are. Right. Like, we, we, we didn't want to be here either.

Right. 

[00:12:32] Project Finding Your Rainbow: A Healing Initiative

[00:12:32] Sarah: But, um, yeah, so with my, um, with my rainbow daughter, I had, um, a rainbow skirt that I bought to use in my maternity pictures, and it's, I mean, it's kind of hard to describe, but it's, it's a giant skirt and you just wear it like over, over like a dress or whatever. It's kind of an over skirt. And so then it was like in 2020 is when I started it.

And I was like, I'm just going to send it out to other lost families. Um, they're just going to take pictures with the skirt and [00:13:00] then, um, I'm going to share their stories. So I had, you know, a few participants in 2020, um, kind of grew in 21. It's been growing since then. And now, um, I just shared, um, story number 330.

It's been to five countries. It's been to the U. S., U. K., Canada, Australia, and Peru. And then it's been to all but like 

[00:13:22] Mel: six states. So. We're close all the states. Yeah. 

[00:13:28] Sarah: And it's terrible to wish for, for somebody to need it in that state, you know? But I know, I'm like, come on, anybody from Maine or Vermont, , 

[00:13:38] Mel: please don't have to 

[00:13:39] Sarah: deal with this, but if you do, I'm here for you.

You know, there's somebody. Come on. 

[00:13:44] Mel: Absolutely. Yeah. Tell me more about that though. Like the skirt. So just FYI, for anybody listening, you can totally see pictures of this skirt on her website, which is journeyforjasmine. com. [00:14:00] And it is beautiful. It's like this, it's almost like as long as a set of sheer drapes and some of the photos.

It's a good way to describe it. The photos of these moms and this beautiful rainbow skirt and the. Love and then the joy. It's, it's really inspiring and I could see where that would just feel really great to anybody going through that grieving process and, um, go check it out for sure. So I still want to hear more about like this journey and this skirt and the support for these moms and, um, you know, have they ever gotten back to you with a like, thank you, you know, I'm sure they have.

Yeah, I 

[00:14:43] Sarah: definitely had a lot of people who are like, okay, this was really hard to write about, but I'm so glad I did it because it was super healing. And then a lot of people say, you know, it just feels so powerful to wear it to know that. [00:15:00] You know you're wearing something that all these other lost moms have.

I think I've had, um, it was like a couple of people that described it as it feels like a hug, like a hug from all the people who have worn it before you. Like it's gonna be 

[00:15:12] Mel: okay. You're not alone. 

[00:15:14] Sarah: Yes, exactly. You're not the only one who's gone through it. Yeah. And, um. You know, everybody takes pictures differently with it, so I love seeing, you know, I've had people who are pregnant with a rainbow, people who already had their rainbow, and then people who don't have it yet, or who may never have one.

But the point of it is, It's called Project Finding Your Rainbow because it's to find your rainbow after loss and that doesn't have to be a baby. For a lot of people it is, but for some people that's not where their journey takes them. But it's trying to show that you can still have hope again and that you can still, you know, find that joy after going through loss.

[00:15:54] Mel: Yeah. Yeah, that is so important. Um, and what are some of the [00:16:00] ways that you are seeing people, aside from a rainbow baby, like how are they finding their rainbow? What other ways? I know you, you briefly mentioned it, but I'd love to dive a little deeper in case there are people listening that are like, I never 

[00:16:15] Sarah: was able to, you know?

So I've had, um, Excuse me. I've had some people who have started their own business doing various things. I've had some people who have started nonprofits for other lost families in honor of their baby, or maybe have started something else related to loss and lost families. And then I've had people who weren't able to, you know, biologically have another child, so they ended up Adopting a child, which, you know, that's still their rainbow baby, um, those are some of the main ways, and then some people who do it, go ahead and do it in hopes of having their rainbow baby, and then sometimes I get to come back and do the updates that, hey, they've [00:17:00] had their baby, and I love that.

Oh, that's so great. 

[00:17:03] Mel: That is really, really beautiful. Um, I want to backtrack a little bit and just kind of get a bit on the technical side of things, since obviously you have a lot of experience in this realm, but you spoke to how you went through infertility treatment for a long time. You also spoke about how you had a miscarriage and a stillbirth, and I'd love for you to just share, like, Where's the drawing line from like a miscarriage to, to stillbirth and yeah.

So 

[00:17:35] Sarah: medically speaking, it's defined a miscarriage is before 20 weeks, a stillbirth is after 20 weeks. Um, I think. I mean, I think when you think of a miscarriage, you typically think of those really early weeks. Um, so, for me personally, I think it's kind of whatever term you feel most comfortable using.

Because there's definitely times where it would be [00:18:00] classified as a miscarriage, but to you, you delivered your baby. So that is absolutely a stillbirth, you know? So, I think they had to medically draw the line somewhere. But I think it's whatever term you want to use. Right. And I did get kind of offended at one of my doctors here who called my stillbirth a miscarriage because I'm like, uh, no, that was 32 weeks.

That was, uh, clearly a 

[00:18:23] Mel: stillbirth. Yeah, pretty far along here, buddy. I 

[00:18:26] Sarah: definitely corrected them every time. Like, no, that was a stillbirth. Yeah. Use the right term. 

[00:18:32] Mel: Let's not offend people in a very clear, clear thing here. 

[00:18:36] Sarah: Yeah. And then also, um, I just wanted to add that. You know, there's what's known as a neonatal loss, which is where your baby is born breathing, but passes within, I think it's within 30 days of, of being born.

And those aren't miscarriages either. Those are, that is a completely different kind of loss. So I know I've had several people who have gone through that that said, [00:19:00] Um, family and friends have referred to it as a miscarriage and they're like, no, my baby was born breathing. This is different. So I think the terminology matters most to the person who's been kind of through the experience.

[00:19:13] Mel: Very sad and challenging to deal with in all of the ways for sure. Um, I definitely have quite a few people close to me that have. I've been through that and I really need to make sure that they are turned on to your podcast and to what you do and to know that they are not alone, which when you, you said that just mildly off subject, but not.

I was watching a show with my daughter last night, in fact, and it was one of her favorite little kids shows. Camp Kikki Wagga or something like that. It's like an outdoor camp and one of the kids at this camp was going his parents were going through a divorce, and the camp, camp counselor was trying to console him.

He was just [00:20:00] like, are your parents divorced, and she was like no, and he's like okay. You can have zero idea how I feel. And so she brought in another kid who had been through it and he felt that bond and that camaraderie and was just like, Oh, I'm not alone. And I feel like that's exactly what you're doing.

Like, yes, it's beautiful to have your family support and people that love you and care about you and, you know, are here for you, but there's so much more to be said to just. No, you're not alone. 

[00:20:33] Sarah: You know, exactly. I mean, I think, you know, family and friends do, they want to understand how you're feeling, but it's just something you just can't fully comprehend unless you have been through it.

[00:20:45] Mel: Yeah. I mean, that's the way I feel about parenthood. You know, you have your single childless friends that are like, Oh, parenthood should be like this and do that. And then you get into the world of parenthood and you're like. You're telling me how to what? You can't understand [00:21:00] it by any shape or form.

[00:21:00] Sarah: Yeah, all those things that you're like, I'm never going to do that as a parent. And you're like, you know what? Eat the cracker off the floor. As long as you're not crying, just eat the cracker. Yes, 

[00:21:09] Mel: exactly. Or an iceberg, maybe. For sure. Like, oh, all those things that I thought were just going to be perfect in all of the ways.

Whoosh! There they 

[00:21:16] Sarah: go. Out the door. 

[00:21:18] Mel: Exactly. That's, that's really, um. A funny way to to relate to it all. 

[00:21:23] Navigating the Complex Emotions of Grief and Joy

[00:21:23] Mel: Um, so I want to also talk about the feelings of joy when you do have that rainbow. And, and I wonder, I imagine, that they're also mixed still with the grief and the sadness. Like, how is, 

[00:21:41] Sarah: how is that? Yeah, it's, you know, it's one of those tough things because you feel guilty almost for having those moments at first because you're like, I can't, I can't be laughing.

Like I'm sad. I just lost my daughter, you know? Um, so I, I found that like, when I came home from the [00:22:00] hospital right after I had her, um, I came home and I, it was just me and my husband. My son was with, um, my dad and I was like, I need to do something normal. I said, I just want to like, Watch something funny and laugh because I've been crying like all weekend and like, I just, I just want to be normal.

So I remember we turned on like America's Funniest Home Videos and I was laughing and then I was like, Oh my God, I shouldn't be laughing. Like I just delivered her yesterday or, you know, I shouldn't be, shouldn't be laughing. But, you know, as, as time has gone on, I'm like, it's okay. Like you don't, you don't have to be sad every single moment of every single day for the rest of your life.

As I mentioned earlier, the grief. It's never going to go away. So, I mean, do you really want to like sit around and just be sad all the time? I mean, I didn't, you know, it's just, so I stopped. Um, I told myself, like, stop feeling guilty for those moments because you have to, you have to keep going on, especially for, you know, my son [00:23:00] at the time.

And now for my two daughters, like, I can't, you know, sit around and Not take care of them, you know? Yeah. And again, like I found now, like we, we celebrate her birthday every year and I try, um, it's a sad day for me, but I also try to, you know, like kind of hard to explain, I guess. Like take joy and. Thinking about what she would be like if she was here, and I try to make it happy so it's not just that, if that makes sense.

It 

[00:23:33] Mel: does! It does make sense. Like, how can you also still celebrate her? Yes. Exactly. Amongst the sadness, for sure. Um, that's, that's really nice. And I'm sure that it's nice for your other children to also celebrate and recognize and And have some gratitude too, because they are here in their loving, caring, lapping arms, you know, [00:24:00] lapping and crying.

[00:24:01] Sarah: Um, yeah, yesterday, um, for the first time, so my daughter, my rainbow, she is four now, and so she wasn't, um, she wasn't here yet when Jasmine was born. Um, and so I tell her, you know, you have two sisters, you have an older sister who's not here, and then you have your younger sister. And so yesterday, um My, my mom's here visiting for, um, she was here for the Thanksgiving holiday and she's staying this week and she was taking my daughter upstairs to go to bed and I heard her say, I have a sister named Jasmine and I was like, Oh my gosh.

Like, I've never heard her like, just say it kind of unprompted. 

[00:24:34] Sharing Personal Experiences and Emotions

[00:24:34] Sarah: So I just kind of, 

[00:24:37] Mel: yeah, that is really, really sweet. And so nice to hear. And that she's saying it to your mom too, just having that lineage is really, really beautiful. I love that so much. Um. Gosh, there is, I feel like, there's just so much to say and, and so much to share around this whole topic and.[00:25:00] 

And again, I just, I love what you're doing and sharing all of these stories and spreading the love and helping other moms feel embraced and not alone. And in that, I would love to hear if you don't mind sharing. Of course, I'm asking a lot of very personal questions. So if I get too personal, just be like, uh uh, lady.

Um, sorry. Um. 

[00:25:25] Therapeutic Modalities for Coping

[00:25:25] Mel: I'd love to hear, like, what kinds of therapeutic modalities have really helped you navigate all of 

[00:25:31] Sarah: this? Um, so like I mentioned, acupuncture was really, um, it was really crucial to me in regulating my cycles and helping to get pregnant. Um, and I also went after my loss because, um, you know, at first like acupuncture, you're like, this is weird.

Like somebody like on these needles and you're like, it is weird. And it's like, there's no way that this could work. And then you see that it does. So, um, I had a really great lady in Texas and I miss her, [00:26:00] but, um, yeah, so I did that. And then. I found, um, during my pregnancy with Jasmine, since we knew about the diagnosis and were facing, you know, these obstacles already, um, I had started writing about my pregnancy, so I continued writing, um, after the loss, I got involved also with Pregnancy After Loss Support, which is, um, a great organization, and I started writing, um, about my loss for them, and then also about my rainbow pregnancy, I, I was one of their, um, They call them their bump day bloggers so I would write every week about going through my pregnancy after loss.

So, um, yeah, the acupuncture helped, the writing helped, counseling helped 

[00:26:41] Mel: a lot. Yeah, having somebody to Process it with and to, and to release those tears in a safe space and feel held again. 

[00:26:55] Sarah: Yeah. Somebody who doesn't know you, um, who doesn't like pass [00:27:00] judgment. 

[00:27:00] Mel: Yes, exactly. And they are, they are solely.

for you. Yeah, it's really, really nice. Um, and I could see where the power of journaling and writing is really, really important. I'm glad that you had an outlet for it and continue to use that outlet through what you do. I think that's really magnificent. 

[00:27:22] The Power of Acupuncture

[00:27:22] Mel: Um, I'm curious to hear how the actual acupuncture was.

Afterwards, like I know I definitely received acupuncture during my pregnancy. I would love to hear different ways in which it helped you. 

[00:27:43] Sarah: So one of the things that I was really struggling with is that, um, I mean, I had, you know, given birth at 32 weeks. So that is full on giving birth. Like you have the postpartum, my milk came in, like everything still.

Um, so one of the things I was really struggling with is my cycle not. [00:28:00] coming back, which is hard enough with PCOS when I don't have a regular one anyways, so, um, I was really frustrated and, um, she was helping, you know, with, kind of, to try to help balance things back out, but also to help with the emotional side of it as well, so to help with the, the frustration I was feeling, the, the sadness I was feeling, and then also just all of the postpartum issues that I was dealing with, um, yeah, I think a lot of people, um, You know, they, they forget that you, you gave birth, like, you know, you're just like any other mom, except you don't have your baby.

So it helped with, um, a lot of different aspects. 

[00:28:43] Mel: Yeah, I imagine that it really would. I just knew that it had to go beyond just the physical aspects, you know. 

[00:28:50] The Emotional Impact of Child Loss

[00:28:50] Mel: Um, and that's a really powerful thing that you just said that just really struck me hard. It's just like, you also just gave birth just like all the other [00:29:00] moms.

Only you don't have your baby in your hand. 

[00:29:03] Sarah: Yeah, it's, it's hard because then you, you know, like, like I said, my milk came in and I'm just like, I just want this gone. Like, please just dry up. And, you know, it's hard to like, look at yourself in the mirror sometimes because you have. You know, the stretch marks, you have the extra weight, you have, you look like you just gave birth because you did just give birth.

So it's um, it's really a complicated time like physically and emotionally, you know? 

[00:29:30] Mel: Yeah, I bet. I really do bet that it is. 

[00:29:34] The Joy of Rainbow Babies

[00:29:34] Mel: Let's shift a bit and, and talk about the joyous feeling when you do have your rainbow. baby, if you don't mind, like, 

[00:29:44] Sarah: yeah, so, so yeah, let's say pregnancy after loss is a process. It is terrifying.

It is, you know, like you go in like afraid that every ultrasound, there's going to be like bad news, you know, um, And it's really [00:30:00] hard. I, I try to tell people a lot, like you have to still find moments of joy because you can't let the anxiety like overwhelm you because then you won't enjoy any part of that pregnancy and it's already hard enough, you know, as it is.

So. I definitely made sure, like, we found out the sex as soon as we could. We chose names for them so that I could call them their name, you know, before they were born. And that kind of helped me connect with them. Um, and then I, you know, a lot of people are afraid to buy things because they don't want to have to, you know, have another loss and then have all this stuff.

But, um, I, you know, I picked themes for their room. I bought stuff and I was like, okay, you're just gonna. You know, you're going to pretend that this is a normal pregnancy and, um, yeah, it, once she was born, I was just, I cried. I was just like, Oh my God, like, she's here. Like, she's breathing on me. I felt like all the nurses were like trying to ask me all these questions.

I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what [00:31:00] you're saying. I can't 

[00:31:02] Mel: hear you right now. 

[00:31:05] Sarah: Those 

[00:31:06] Mel: questions that nurses love to ask. You're like, do you think I'm paying any attention to you right now at all? Like the most amazing things just happened to me and you're asking me 

[00:31:16] Sarah: what? Yeah, I know, like so you can make a note about something.

And then actually my, so a baby born after a rainbow baby, if there's no losses in between, are sometimes called a pot of gold baby. So that's what, um, I, my. youngest daughter is, um, my surprise baby. And that pregnancy was really, really hard too, because I was in a new state, new doctor had to deliver at a new hospital.

And it was just, it was crazy. And, um, she ended up coming two weeks early. Unexpectedly, like I basically went from having no signs of labor to waking up at night, like completely soaked and having [00:32:00] contractions like three minutes apart. I'm like, Oh my God. And, um, yeah, since she came early, we had no family here.

So, um, I actually had to give birth to her alone because my husband had to stay with the kids. They wouldn't let the kids stay up there because it wasn't, um, visiting hours. I'm like, really? You couldn't just let them like wait in the waiting room. Oh yeah. So that was definitely an experience. She came fast.

Sounds like a, um, yeah, but they're all here. So I'm grateful for that and I'm grateful to have them. It's grateful to have Jasmine too. 

[00:32:37] Mel: That is really so beautiful. I am grateful for all your stories just because you get to help so many others now. Like I can imagine where that's a really healing process for you.

as well. 

[00:32:48] The Importance of Support and Community

[00:32:48] Mel: And I'd love to hear from you if you have any words of wisdom for any moms out there experiencing loss. Like [00:33:00] what would you just say to them if they're listening right now and are feeling heard and out alone thanks to you being on this show and the work that you do, but just any words of wisdom you have for those moms.

[00:33:12] Sarah: I would say the number one most important thing is you have to find support. And I know you hear that all the time, but like seriously, you have to find support, and it doesn't, I think the surprising thing is that it's not always who you think it's going to be, it may not be your family, it may not be your partner, it may not be a friend, it may be an acquaintance, it may be a co worker, it could be somebody you don't know online, a stranger, but they've also been through loss.

So then, you know, you kind of bond over that. So actually, um, I have a good friend who I met online, who also had a baby with, um, CDH, like Jasmine, and she lost her son a week before I lost Jasmine. So we lost them and then we pretty much started talking every day. And then, so now she's one of my best friends.[00:34:00] 

Um, so, you know, it's, it does, like I said, you have to have somebody Because you can't do it alone. And even if you think you can do it alone, why would you want to do it alone? Right. You don't, you don't have to, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to be tough, you don't have to be strong. Like, just accept the help, accept the support.

Yeah. That's my biggest 

[00:34:23] Mel: thing. Yeah, that's a really, really important thing to do. And I think it's, it can be so hard for people, especially women, to accept support. I know I'm not very good at that, so I can imagine how many moms are out there that are just like, I'm just gonna go hide and tuck this all in and keep this pain to myself 

[00:34:46] Sarah: and that's, that's heartbreaking to me.

It is, but I, but I agree that, you know, so many people are, especially women are like that. We're just expected to just go on like nothing happened, like go back and. Be normal, like, don't be [00:35:00] sad, you know, just don't talk about it. Chin up! 

[00:35:03] Mel: I got something for your chin, buddy. 

[00:35:09] Sarah: It actually reminds me of something that was like funny but not funny that I saw the other day.

It was like, um I said something like, you know, a woman could show up at the, at the ER with like her arm hanging off and then they'll still ask, when was the first day to your last period? And it's like, it's so true, but it 

[00:35:29] Mel: is so true. Hello. I am a human. There are things happening right now. Oh my gosh.

That is so funny. That's hilarious. And sadly, true. 

[00:35:41] Sarah: It is. I mean, I feel like, you know, just so many, so many people think they can't talk about it because people don't want to, they don't want to hear about the sadness. They just want you to be like your normal self and we're not our normal self ever again.

You're never the same person. 

[00:35:54] Mel: Yeah. 

[00:35:54] Sarah: People need to 

[00:35:55] Mel: accept that. Yeah. I think that's a really important perspective actually [00:36:00] in, in our, In my Apothecary Mama community last month in October, our guest speaker, brilliant, beautiful woman, her name is Jacqueline Clemens, and she is a postpartum doula, and she came in and spoke about postpartum nourishment, and it was a very deep class, far more than the title sounds, but one of the things that she said that I think is really relevant to what you just said is that postpartum is forever.

And I think that is definitely applicable in the case of loss as well, like that is forever, you don't just get over it, you have now completely changed, your body has changed, the chemicals in your body, the hormones, all of it is different, forevermore. 

[00:36:46] Sarah: So yes, exactly. I mean, whether you have a living baby or not, you're right.

Like you are forever changed. You're never, never the same. Your body's different. Your, your emotions are different. Your mind is different. Like it's, it's all different. 

[00:36:59] Mel: Absolutely. [00:37:00] Absolutely. Well, this is amazing. I would thank you for sharing your story so much. I, I. I really love to hear it. 

[00:37:09] The Journey of Jasmine and the Power of Storytelling

[00:37:09] Mel: As sad as so much of it can be, there's still so much blessing in the way that you are reaching out and helping so many other women recognize that they are not alone and celebrating those rainbows, however they may come about for each individual.

And I would love for you to share a bit more about like exactly what you do and how if anybody who is listening to this show right now. You can find support and camaraderie and that hug in a rainbow skirt. If that's what they need, just share a little more again about what you do and how they can 

[00:37:48] Sarah: find you.

Sure. So, um, my website is journeyforjasmine. com and that's kind of where I started everything. So I started just by posting all the stories are there so you can see all the [00:38:00] stories. Um, and then also there's lots of other resources like other articles about, um, you know, things you go through. Trying to get pregnant or just after loss, just lots of helpful information there.

Um, and then my podcast is Finding Hope After Loss. You can find that on all the major platforms. Again, that's um, sharing stories of infertility, sharing stories of loss and um, all the issues surrounding it, which is, you know, trying to get pregnant after loss, pregnancy after loss, parenting after loss, like a little bit of, of everything.

So I'm sure um, everyone can find something they can relate to on there. Yeah, and then, um, yeah, my social media is also Journey for Jasmine on Facebook, Instagram, all those places. Yeah. Yeah. And then information for the skirt is also on the website as well. There's a Project Finding Your Rainbow tab that you can read all about how to, how to participate.

[00:38:54] Mel: Especially if you're in Maine or Vermont. 

[00:38:56] Sarah: Yeah. Or the four other states. [00:39:00] 

[00:39:00] Mel: A kid but not. Um, sad reality is we all know that there's somebody there that could really embrace that skirt. So, um. Well, thank you. Thank you again so much. It's really been great to hear your story. And again, I love what you're doing for so many people.

[00:39:18] Sarah: Well, thank you so much for letting me share it. Yeah, 

[00:39:22] Mel: absolutely. Have a great day. 

[00:39:26] The Struggles of Balancing Work and Personal Life

[00:39:26] Mel: Um, well, I guess that was an odd ending, wasn't it? Should I end that differently? I feel like it was really awkward. Um, uh, but it is where I was. Sorry, my brain is also like today, it's just been like, I'm meeting after meeting after meeting, and I'm still processing the sh Child nut being here while I'm working and it's great and a lot different right?

Yeah, very different. So, um, I think we'll talk about this with you on your show afterwards, but would you ever consider just coming in and [00:40:00] talking about? Any of these kinds of issues, like just support after loss or whether it's in fertility or anything like that inside of my apothecary mama community as a 

[00:40:12] Sarah: guest.

Yeah, I'd definitely love to 

[00:40:13] Mel: do that. I think it would be a really great topic that obviously I don't have other people speaking about, um, but I'm confident that there's mamas in there that could really use it. 

[00:40:23] Sarah: So yeah, definitely any chance I, I have to, you know, kind of reach out and connect with other people who have gone through it.

I'd love to do it. 

[00:40:31] Mel: Awesome. I will write that down and I will get Jennifer again to reach out to you and we'll get you on a calendar for that. I'm just now planning 2024, a little bit late. It's been a crazy end of the year so far. 

[00:40:46] Sarah: I get it. I'm in kind of the same boat. Same place. I was like, we're going to Texas for, uh, two weeks at the end of December.

And I'm like, oh man, that means I only have like two weeks here to like really focus on stuff. And I'm like, I 

[00:40:57] Mel: like, oh no, . Yeah, . It's like, I know. [00:41:00] Oh no. That's where I'm like, oh, yay. My kid's in school. I have all this time. And like this whole week is just like interview, podcast, class, class, class, podcast, interview.

And I'm like, I thought I was good. Okay. 

[00:41:12] The Importance of Focus and Organization in Business

[00:41:12] Mel: first week is the first week and like my whole mission for the next month or two. Mr. Gist? Stop, slow down, and just kind of organize and structure and find peace in my business because I am very guilty of go, go, go, go, go, let me create, create, create, create, create.

And I'm like, stop creating 

[00:41:37] Sarah: new things! Just 

[00:41:39] Mel: find a A focus and pick that direction and make sure you're connecting and helping in all the ways that you possibly can. I laugh 

[00:41:46] Sarah: because I do the same thing. I'll be like, I am so busy. And then I'm like, oh, let's start a podcast. Oh, 

[00:41:50] Mel: for sure. I am so busy. I'm going to start a whole new program.

[00:41:54] Sarah: I know. You're like, why do I do this to myself? But then like, you're already doing it. So, and then, Yeah, so I 

[00:41:59] Mel: can't stop now. [00:42:00] Yeah. So my goal is to like, not start any new programs for at least until Q2. Why did 

[00:42:10] Sarah: I say this? 

[00:42:11] Mel: And then I'm going to tell you that I'm also planning a summit in February, late February, so yeah, not starting anything new, just a huge event.

Oh, just 

[00:42:21] Sarah: that, you know, that'll be easy. 

[00:42:22] Mel: No biggie. Oh my gosh. I love it. The things I do. But yeah, this month, let's get all of the other little pieces, because there's so many little pieces on the back end, right? There 

[00:42:35] Sarah: is, yeah, there really is. Because I'm over here like, okay, I need to do like these four things today and then I'm like, I didn't do any of these things, I did this 

[00:42:42] Mel: and that.

These things will be really quick and easy. 

[00:42:46] Sarah: Uh. That's 

[00:42:49] Mel: what I'm going to try now that my daughter is in school, like, okay, if I could pick three main tasks each week. It's a good idea. Really hard for me to do. It's a great [00:43:00] idea. I've like known for years. It's a great idea. But 

[00:43:05] Sarah: practicing it, yeah. Exactly. So goals, life goals.

All right. Well, that's got to be both of our aims. Yeah, 

[00:43:13] Mel: absolutely. Well, thanks again, Sarah. I'm so glad we got to connect. You are an absolute pleasure and joy to chat with even when we're chatting hard things. 

[00:43:22] Sarah: So thank you. I always enjoy talking with you 

[00:43:25] Mel: too. Yeah, I can't wait to have you inside of Apothecary Mama and sharing with those 

[00:43:31] Sarah: mamas too.

Yeah, I look forward to it. 

[00:43:33] Mel: Awesome, have a great 

[00:43:34] Sarah: day. Thank you, you too. Bye. Bye.