Regenerative Wildcrafting With Scott Kloos

Dive into this episode with Scott Kloos, a seasoned herbalist, as we uncover the secrets of sustainable wildcrafting and regenerative practices in herbalism. Learn how to ethically gather plants with a deep understanding of ecosystems, ensuring we nurture nature rather than harm it.  Scott brings to light the often-overlooked traditional ecological knowledge, showing how it's essential in facing today's ecological challenges and adapting to climate changes affecting plant life. This conversation isn't just about theory; it's packed with practical insights, including a glimpse into Scott's upcoming video course and book on Regenerative Wild Crafting. 

Inside you’ll learn about:

02:42 Scott's Journey into Herbalism
07:24 Importance of Respectful Harvesting
17:47 Role of Community in Wildcrafting
43:53 Impact of Seasonal Changes on Plants
45:00 Wildcrafting in a Warming World
45:47 Changing State of Our Environment
47:08 Sharing Wisdom for New Wildcrafters
58:14 Role of Humans in Ecosystems
59:03 Importance of Song in Wi

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Transcript

Introduction and Guest Introduction

Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode on the Herbalist's Path.

Today's episode, I know, is going to be a very, very special treat for you because I have one of my first teachers in the world of herbalism, Scott Klosk, in to speak to you about all kinds of amazing things. We'll tap into the world of wildcrafting, regenerative, regenerative wildcrafting, and connecting with the plants and with nature and with yourself and who knows what else is in store for us.

Revisiting Past Conversations and Experiences

I did have Scott on the show a few years back and it was certainly wonderful and I'm so happy to have you here again Scott. 

So thank you.  Yeah, thank you. I super appreciate you having me back. It was super fun to connect with you last time and I really loved how our conversation flowed and looking forward to  our conversation today as well.

Yeah, you've always been such a great mentor for me that has lasted so long. And when people ask me about my journey as an herbalist, and who I've learned from, and where I've gone, and what I've done, one of the key things I can always say comes back to you in teaching me about meeting the plants. And  Getting to know them, connecting with them, learning about how to gather them in a respectful way, also at the peak of their medicinal value, and how to make great medicine.

And you know, this was quite a while ago that I got to learn those things with you. 

Revisiting Past Experiences and Lessons

One of the other things that I thought was really special and really was great that we connected again here recently is You are who really introduced me to the power of Devil's Club and it was one of our first field trips that we had went out on.

I want to say it was like at the Cougar Falls or something like that. 

It was near Panther Creek. Yes, 

there, there we go. I was close.  And it was a very, very rainy trip, and you had us all sit in the patch of Devil's Club, and I just remember having these giant Devil's Club leaves over me, protecting me, so to speak, from the rain, though I love the rain and it was a really beautiful spiritual experience for me, and I have not gone to gather Devil's Club again, ever since until this fall and it's a patch that I've seen over the years living around where I do and got to take my daughter there and share the magic and power of Devil's Club and introduce her and it was just really beautiful made me think of you so great just a little story to share I'd love for you to share a bit about you, Scott.

Scott's Journey into Herbalism

Like what do you do outside of my words? You know, who are you? How did you become  you with this great book and a new book coming out? Wow. Maybe your plant path. Let's, let's narrow that down. That's a big, big question.  

Scott's Journey into Herbalism

Let's go with your plant journey.  

Yeah, the plants are entwined in everything I do, but there are lots of different things I've been doing besides just herbalism and wild crafting these days, but let's stick to that.

Yeah, let's stick to that.  Well, I started, I was thinking, I knew you were going to ask this, so I was thinking about it. And I started. wanting to learn about identifying plants because when I first moved to Oregon in the mid 90s, I, you know, I knew there were psilocybin mushrooms that grew here and I need to find psilocybin mushrooms.

So as I started like getting a guidebook to help me find them, it started saying, oh, you need, you know, this one grows under This kind of tree, and this one grows under that kind of tree, and I'm like, I don't know what those kind of trees are. So I started to learn the, you know, what the trees were, and then the different plants.

And then that kind of slowly took me, as I started to really get more into plants. I never did find psilocybin mushrooms, but,  but I, I found the plants.  And  and I, you know, I think I read about this in my book, Pacific North Medicinal Plants, that what really got me on the track of wanting to be like a self sufficient herbal, herbal medicine person was watching my grandparents die in the hospital  and it was my,  I had had my own experiences of going to kind of like regular medical doctors and as a child and I used to have really bad ear infections and I can remember one One thing in particular was this one doctor that my mom was taking me to.

He,  I came in  with an ear infection and the first thing he did was he kind of clapped me on the side and said, Hey, how you doing? And I started screaming. It was super painful. I just felt like, no, there was no care. involved. And then seeing my grandparents  die, you know with like no dignity, just like with tubes hooked up to them.

I couldn't, it took me years to be able to go near a hospital after that because I was, it created such a feeling of trauma in me. And I was like, I'm definitely not going  to one of those places. So I, you know, the pathway opened up for me through people I knew. I had a  a girlfriend at the time in particular who was just getting into herbs and we kind of started learning together.

And then  you know, and then just, yeah, start,  after I started learning about herbal medicine, of course, and I wanted to I used to gather my own medicine because I lived, you know, in these places that were, it was easily, easy to access.  So, that was back in,  like, the mid 90s that I first started wildcrafting and I got,  you know, I got a hold of Michael Moore's book, Plants of the  Pacific West, I think it's called.

Mm 

hmm, the one that was just right next to yours that I just pulled off my shelf, yeah? I haven't 

looked at it. Plants of the Pacific West, I haven't looked at that one for a long time, but I used to carry it. everywhere with me. And just, I lived, I lived outside of Eugene at the time and would just go and  find everything I could.

And I learned so much from  Michael Moore, you know, through his books. And then also I did  1999, I did an apprenticeship at the herb farm  and we got to do some wildcrafting, learning more about it there, but I've already kind of, I already had it.  Pretty down. And then, and then in  2004, I think is when I started selling medicines.

I was  harvesting my own, you know,  plants and then started making medicine from them in 2004 was when I finally got the courage to actually  offer them to people. At first I wasn't selling, I was just giving  medicine to people  and eventually started selling it. And that's Cascadia Folk Medicine. It's still, still going today, believe it or not.

Yeah, 

I was going to ask, but now I don't have to. That's awesome.  That's beautiful. I love that story. It's, it's it's always such a lovely and winding journey to get there, right? And you can listen to the plants and let them lead you. You can think in the beginning that you know where you're going to go with it, but do we ever really know? 

No, no. If I had known where I was going to be taken at that time, I might have said, Oh no, no, I'm not going there because it hasn't been an easy path. It's been really intense at times. 

The Importance of Respectful Harvesting

And at this point in my life, I I greatly welcome the intensity of those initiatory processes that have to happen and I mean, that's like a really good segue into  this whole thing that I'm wanting to bring forth, which is that it's not just about  going out and harvesting, we actually have to allow ourselves to change the way that we are oriented with the world because At least people that have been brought up and raised in the culture that we've been brought up in, we have this real,  there's this real separate self aspect in that, you know, humans are the dominant species where the, you know, everything's about, radiates about us, revolves around us and how things are ours for the taking, you know, it's just baked into the  Bible thing and all the way through.

The Impact of Overharvesting and Ecological Disaster

And we can see where that's taken us to this You know, the brink of ecological disaster across the whole planet and  it wasn't that long ago where you had to say it seems like it's happening now. It's like, there's no doubt that it's here.  Yeah. And there's, you know.  A huge percentage of plants are going extinct. 

And I mean, I see it, I see places where plants used to thrive and they're not thriving anymore. Yeah, I 

see it as well. And it's really, it crushes my heart and my soul because much of what got me into the world of herbalism was his desire to save the world and connect more people with nature. I had no idea at that point that I would be so immersed in the world of herbalism, which is really why I, I so appreciate the work that you're doing.

Oftentimes, one of the things I'll say to people is I hear a lot of people like, Hey Mel, what herb do I take for XYZ? And I'm like, no, you, you really need to step out of that box that you've been trained to be in for so long. No fault of yours. Like that's the society we live in. But if you're seeking something different, we need to also shift.

The Role of Humans in Ecosystems

Our behaviors and our thinking and it definitely is relevant to the world of wild crafting and  preservation and being able to do regenerative wild crafting is so important. I see it so often on social media where people are like in this wild crafting group and they've got a big basket of tons of xyz  plant and they're like look I just gathered all of this plant and and what do I do with it now?

First, it's the wrong plant, you know, usually, right, and then, like, you've gathered so much and you didn't even have  a use or an intention for it, like, where's some, some respect for these living beings, I guess, is really where I come from. You could probably say it in a much more eloquent way, but this is what I come across 

a lot. 

Yeah.  It's, I think, I think you said that very well, actually.  I can, I can say more. It comes to mind is this experience I had when I was  I was, I had a group of students and,  I was doing a whole year long thing where we were going out to different places and doing more like ceremonial work with the plants or just like deep connection with the plants, but there was also a component of wildcrafting in the places where we went. 

And we were in  the mountains of Central Oregon.  And at that time, at that time I still felt pretty It's good about harvesting Ligusticum greyei, which is the, our, one of our local you know, Pacific coast cousins of Osha that grows in the Rocky Mountains, the Ligusticum porteri, and there's a place where it grows, I know, and it's  It's super abundant.

I mean, it grows, there's like mountainsides covered with it. So I felt good about bringing a group there to harvest. And, but there were certain places where the soil was really sandy and light and, you know, you could almost just pull them out of the ground.  And I specifically told everybody that was in that group to not harvest from this particular spot because it was too easy to gather them and for each person to just gather a couple plants. 

And we did a whole thing before gathering where I had people really deeply connect with the plant, like get their faces in and like dig with their hands and then like nibble on the, on the root while it's still on the ground and like smell it and, you know, really have like the experience of connecting with this plant, plus, you know, praying and asking for permission and all that.

And then we came, we were coming back and  One of the women had an arm load full, I mean like pounds, in her arms, and she was standing right by that spot. I asked people not to harvest and I was  dumbfounded that that she wasn't able to hear what I said. And it really made me  it's, there's a, there's been several moments of different types in my career as a teacher that really like  hammered something into me of like, well, I really, I really need to get people to understand this.

Yes. And I questioned her about it. And I found out later that she was from someone else that she was opening her own like herb shop with a friend. And so she was using this as an opportunity to like, This was a time for us to like, learn how to harvest and do our own, and I was asking Bill not to come back to the places I was taking him, because these are the places I've scouted out, and he's actually taking it, so she could, you know, sell it, profit, and, and that's, you know, one of the principles of regenerative wildcrafting  and is for me is this  is is it's relational and not transactional and there's a distinction in that like transactional  is that is the way that everything works in our culture right you you have something and I want it I give you something and you give it to me and that's the end of it  and we don't consider the The relational aspects of things and in other cultures, there's more of this like relationality where oh, I do something for you and you don't necessarily have to do something back to me in return, but we just trust that it's going to keep going.

We're all going to be helping each other. But this transactional way, it promotes more of like agreed. way of being than trusting in what's being offered. And if you think about the,  you know, just imagining like  the, the, the Europeans that arrived in this land and they came from a place where they had completely just  wiped out.

plant species, forests, you know, it goes back thousands of years back to even like the Middle East where that area was like lush, you know, the land of milk and honey, and it was just desertified by over harvesting of trees and the devastation of forests. And then arriving in a place here, it seems like, oh, it's so abundant, there's so much here, we could just take as much as we want, but.

If we just take and we don't give back,  we see what happens. And of course that, that the, the forests that  were here when the colonists arrived, were not just like that because they just did that. They were like that because they were.  Lots and lots of people that inhabited this land that were tending and working within those ecosystems to keep things going and that so there'd be more and so,  so there's the don't just take without giving but also  to understand that  humans aren't inherently a negative  thing in ecosystems that actually, if we look at it, like there's places  Like here in the Northwest, where there are these massive, you know, like, tended places for wild foods, where there's the wapato or, or camas roots, and you can still find, if you're going in the mountains, you'll find a place where, like, I was on a bike trip this summer in like, South Central Oregon, and we just came across this meadow where there were just  acres of camas, and it's like, oh, clearly this was a place where the  Original inhabitants, indigenous people of these lands cultivated these things.

So what I was, what I was getting to was that  certain plants need our interaction to keep them going. And and if, if humans aren't tending to those places, then The stands will actually diminish. So we don't have an inherent negative impact on ecosystems. We just have to be aware of how we do interact with those things.

And that's why I, I mean, I, the word regenerative is pretty fashionable right now and pretty trendy. And like, really, I thought hard about, I'm going to call this regenerative wildcrafting.  It just felt so right. And when I really studied the word regenerative, it means create again.  So it's not, it's not so much about like, Like again, getting away from the human centric, like we're going to create again, we're going to make more and more plants and do this thing.

It's about finding the ways that we can align with the ecosystems so that the ecosystems themselves are the ones that are doing the, that's doing the regeneration. It's not us. We're just finding ways that we can interact and align with those inherent processes of regeneration, renewal, and.  

Regrowth. I love that so much and as you speak all of these things I'm like look at all these great things he instilled in me and my practices of wild crafting and how I get to go out and teach people those kinds of things as well but I'd love for you to share some of the ways that we as people can integrate more with this practice like specific details how can we really  create again with these plants and and  Yeah, make that movement happen.

Like, what could somebody that's listening right now really plant in their minds for the rest of their life as they go out to wild craft and have that 

respect?  Okay, I gotta come up with something good here.  

Pressure's on, Scott!  

The Importance of Community in Herbalism

Well, the first thing I'll say is that it's something that we can't do alone. 

It's another breaking down of that separate self. It really has to happen in community. Because it's about more than just the words, okay? I'll get to that part. So, we have to study ecosystems. We have to really understand, as best we can, how they function. And it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

It's like for me, there's certain plants that I've been, I had been harvesting,  that I don't harvest anymore, like that Ligusticum that I was talking about. Even though I know that in that place,  I can harvest. And I, and, and I will. Occasionally go there and harvest just a little bit, but I don't sell it through Cascadia Folkwiness and I just have it for my own personal usage and to share with people in the community.

Understanding the Lifecycles of Plants

And the reason I don't harvest that anymore is because I don't know enough about the ecology of how those plants grow to say with confidence that I know if I harvest from a stand.  And let's say I, I, I, I make assessments and I feel like, okay, I can take, you know, just a few plants from this big giant stand.

The questions I'm asking myself are,  since this is a really slow growing plant,  how long is it going to take for those plants to come back?  Like if I, if I say, you know, because what I would do is I would plant seeds from that, that as I'm harvesting, I would be harvesting at a time. The seeds are ripe. And then the holes that I would dig out, I plant the seeds.

Some, some plants you can plant, replant the crowns for roots.  Like angelica does really well.  Plantain, if you take the,  I'm making hand motions so the people that are listening can't see, but just imagine. 

When I get the YouTube channel back up.  

Imagine a carrot and you, you, you dig up the root and then the part at the top, that's called the crown, where the leaves come out, you can cut that off, you can do it with a carrot too, and you can plant that.

back in the ground and the roots will regrow from there and then the above ground part will come back. It doesn't, I haven't noticed that working so well with the Ligusticum, the Ligusticum cray, but one thing I've noticed is that they often grow entwined with each other. There'll be several seeds have sprouted and so the roots will be twisted so you can  Dig out the side of the hole and take, you know, just  unentwine part of it and leave the other part to stay growing.

So those are ways we can do that in the short term, but in the long term,  I want to know how long it takes. 

The Process of Regenerative Wildcrafting

Because one of the other principles of regenerative wildcrafting is  to make sure that there's going to be more there than when we started.  And,  and that's, you know, that's kind of like that again, aligning with that create again from the, what regenerate means.

And until I know that,  I don't feel comfortable doing large harvests in places. So that's one way is for us to really gather together to do these studies of certain plants. Like some things it's, it's with nettles, you know, like.  Harvest. St. John's Wort. You know, I've had times where I had St. John's Wort that I harvested  before I got  You know, sophisticated enough to have like a instant pot to, you know, do my oil in, I would just put it out in the you know, in a bag in the sun to have the sun heated up and to do the extraction.

The Importance of Connection with Nature

And there was one year where it just was one of those years where it didn't, it wasn't sunny in the summer. And so I had like two batches go bad  on me, but I went back to the same places. You know, like a week or two later, and the same plants I harvested from were filled with flowers again, because that plant is so, just keeps giving and giving and giving, so.

With those plants, we don't have to worry so much. With these other plants, especially root plants that are slow growing, like Ligusticum, and then Lomaceum dissectum is another one that takes a really long time for them. You know, they'll just be tiny little For 10 years, it'll be like the size of a pencil,  and the ones that are being harvested are probably 50, 60, maybe 100 years old, so we really have to figure that out. 

Understand the lifecycle of those plants, which is like a generational thing for us to do. Mm-Hmm. . And then, and then it's not just the plants, it's the ecosystems themselves. So what else is,  is involved, you know, and each ecosystem has different  needs and parameters. So like a meadow is gonna be very different than like a high desert area.

So like getting to know the different ecosystems. So what I recommend. 

The Importance of Spending Time with Plants

All you have to do for people to do is to go spend time in all the places where you're going to harvest and think, think of those places as  gardens that you're, you're tending to, that you're going to come, you know, find places that you're going to come back to again and again and again, and don't even harvest there at the beginning, maybe spend it.

The Role of Traditional Ecological Knowledge

a whole year watching the cycle and coming back and seeing what animals show up, what birds are there how the life cycle of the plant works, and then, you know, eventually we will have, and there's this term in anthropology Traditional Ecological Knowledge abbreviated as TEK, T E K,  and  people are talking about that a lot more now because it, it, it's, obvious that the traditional knowledge that First Nations people have all over the world  is a key to us getting out of the kind of mess we're in with climate change.

But again, it's like  it can't be done from the place of like, oh, you have this thing that we need because that's also part of what got us into this mess. But like just recognizing and honoring that that Knowledge exists and it's been honed and  and brought together  over countless generations. So we can't expect to be able to do that ourselves, but there are ways that we can  start to approximate that or create the conditions for ourselves as part of a community, the communities of wildcrafters or plant people or whatever we want to call ourselves to start to So we can do that kind of a study on our own. 

And  I could keep going on for that more, but I think I'll pause for a second and see if you have anything to Oh gosh, 

The Challenges of Teaching Herbalism Online

there's so much to unpack with that. 

The Impact of Overharvesting

You probably saw me writing like little notes on things to mention and This, this is just really such important work and one of the things you did come back to it, but I just wanted to reiterate is the importance of, well, I said come back to it, but coming back and like visiting these places.

It's not like, hey, I came across this stand and so I'm just going to take it all, but you're actually developing a relationship with the plants, with the land, really, really, truly getting to know them. And I think that's so incredibly important. And it's one of the things that people. We really are missing out on a lot today and I feel like, you know, we need to shout this as loudly as possible, the importance of it.

And it sounds like that's exactly what you're saying throughout this. And then I also wanted to touch a bit on the generational thing in a few different aspects. One, I wanted to let you know I have been given this great honor to be teaching some Native Alaskan elders about medicine making and about each month we're deep diving on a plant native to their area and when I got this opportunity I was both overjoyed and so saddened because  Here I am, this European white girl coming in to teach you about the medicine that you're growing around because this information and knowledge was essentially stripped from you and your people. 

And so, sometimes I'm really fortunate in those classes that somebody is there to share. What their grandfather or their grandmother did with them. And when I get to hear those stories, it brings me so much joy and magic, but I just, it makes me very curious on how we can help to continue to uncover some of this information that was there for so long.

And then again, our greedy society basically stripped it from all of us for quite some time.  So that, that's one thing. And then I think a lot about like the generational thing and being a mother and you're a father of two young boys and, and I know they're in practice with these things, cause I know you and your wife are very in tune with all of this, but how can we all start to instill this  essential knowledge? 

for our children and our grandchildren and our great grandchildren so that we make this common knowledge for the world again. And obviously you're doing that through your book, but these are just some of the pieces that I really picked up from what you were just saying.  Yeah, 

and  I want to reiterate too that, that,  because I'm, I'm, I was thinking a lot of like be very cautious and come back to the places again and again and again.

And I think sometimes people can take that too far, I think. 

The Importance of Harvesting Respectfully

Oh, we should never touch anything or harvest anything out there because it's too, everything's too fragile and,  and like that, but I, but I also want to say it's.  It's, my experience is that the land is so happy when people come with respect and humility and interact.

And so to also just encourage people to not be afraid, but to get to know those, the plants that are,  are the ones that we don't have to worry so much about. Like I'd mentioned, nettles and  St. John's Wort, and you know, like Cottonwood Buds, or just a bun of the plants, throw them off, and you know, Red Cedar, Red Cedar Same, like in the, this time of year, in the, you know, fall, wintertime, the winds blow, and just, The tips fall off and you can even just go and gather them off the ground and they're still fresh.

So getting to know those plants first, the ones that are easily, easy to identify  because you have to be able to identify the plants first. You mentioned that in your story that seeing people like, I mean, I've had the experience too of people  coming to me as a teacher saying, Oh, look, I just made medicine from this plant.

And I look at the jar and I'm like, That's not the plant you think it is  and, you know, if someone's doing that with a toxic plant, they could really hurt themselves or somebody else, so they'd be really careful about that, and just a little aside with that, to be really aware of the APACA  family, the carrot family, which has lots of very medicinal and very toxic plants.

So get to know that family really well. 

The Role of Humans in Ecosystems

And then the ranunculaceae family, the buttercup family, which also has some really important medicinal plants and also some very toxic plants. So that's a good place to start in terms of knowing what not to harvest. And then, but then finding the easy plants and getting just getting comfortable with those.

And then from there doing that deeper study of, of the ecosystems and going to places. And there's a way, there's ways that we can  I'll tell, I'll tell this story that there's, there's a story that I was remembering this morning as I was thinking about this, being here with you today of  when I was at a place in my life where  I, I, I was, I, I've been very cautious about my harvesting for a really long time, wanting to do it, you know, do it right and, and do it a certain way and like when I harvest trees, tree bark, I've been, you know, pretty proud to say that I, for years, I never  took like a standing tree down or took bark from a standing tree that I just harvested from trees that had fallen over, but that were still rooted in, which is a Another, you know, one of the practices that I would encourage is, and I talk about this in my book, and I will talk about it in this Relationships of Loving Reciprocity, Wild Crafting course that's going to be coming out soon that we'll talk more about later.

The Concept of Regenerative Wildcrafting

So excited for that. Video, video, just showing it, showing this process, but but so there came a time where  as, as Cascadia Folk Medicine was growing, I couldn't just find the, you know, the perfect broken branch or, or, you know, tree that had fallen over and so I was in the forest and I was asking, okay,  what do I do? 

And I found myself sitting right next to two  alder trees. They were growing like this far apart  and  it became clear to me, and I'll say this again, this is part of,  part of doing this work in a community. And before I was talking about doing it in a community, so we have lots of people studying these places, because it's a lot for one person to do, to go to all these different places and spend so much time, but if we can all,  you know, gather together and help each other with that, it's great.

And in this case, there's this  listening, perceiving process that happens that's not,  you know, that isn't necessarily acknowledged by modern science, let's say. Which is this energetic way of connecting with. with plants and with  The land with ecosystems  and, and doing that in a community is really important because  it's easy to get kind of caught up in our own ego stuff with that and we can get grandiose with it and think, oh, I know what's going on or, you know, I got this message that I should, you know, cut down all the trees here because this is what needs to happen, you know, things like that.

Practical Tips for Regenerative Wildcrafting

But if you have people in a community that are doing that together, we can sort of  check on each other. So I've been very grateful to have people that I can,  you know, discuss these things with. And in this case, I did discuss this with someone  and  it made sense afterwards, you know, like, Being there, asking, okay,  it's like these trees were asking one, they were saying, take one of us, and I was like, I felt so bad to cut a tree down,  and I was sitting there, sitting with it, struggling with this,  and I opened my eyes, and there was a hummingbird just like sitting right in front of me, and And  for me, that was just the message, okay, this is what needs to happen.

And then, as I was, as I was engaging in the process, it became clear, it's like, oh yeah, if there's two trees that are growing right next to each other,  they're gonna just  take, you know, have to share, you know, what they're receiving.  If I take one out.  Then the other one is going to thrive more and it's going to actually, you know, I remembered back to my days of kind of  living with homesteaders and learning about, you know, agroforestry practices where you're going to go through a forest and you thin out in a certain way and take wood for firewood and for building materials.

And if you divide it into like seven sections, by the time you come back to the first section, there's more  trees there. Then when you start, so  

valuable lesson for sure. And I love the lesson in there and  listening to those plants and taking that time to just stop and,  and, and meditate if for lack of better word with those plants and ask for an answer and let them speak to you because they do right  And then you can come to these new lessons and these new realizations that you had, it sounds like.

So I love that. That's that's beautiful.  

It wasn't something that just was like, Oh, should I do this? And it just went bing. It was, I spent  hours there with those trees and just feeling into the whole, everything around and feeling into the trees. And so it wasn't a, yeah, it was, it's a, it's a process.

Yeah, I also love what you're saying about community and, and I know we talked about how like, obviously, to really study these things in great depth for a long time,  takes a lot of time from an individual, but how can you connect with a community to, you know, just say, hey, this is, this is what we're up to.

The Importance of Community in Wildcrafting

We want to explore this over here, like how does that really work? I know you're in a pretty awesome community, so I'm just really curious about how that works. I  mean how it works in a world of, let me just preface like, in a world of major disconnection with our super connection, right? Because I feel like so many are very disconnected from others.

Right, right, and there's so much of the community is happening online, and that's great  for connecting people, but it's not. I'm not necessarily going to,  you know, foster this thing that I'm talking about. I mean, I think  the,  you know, the way that I've seen it work the best is people going to herb schools. 

And then the community that develops within, you know, that. Yeah. Programs. And, you know, but I'm sure even if you're not, you don't have the,  you know, the capacity to do like a year long program, there's always going to be like someone doing smaller, shorter classes, you could take a, you know, go on a plant walk with people and meet people that way. 

I've struggled with this myself because I've, I've, you know, I, I, for years, I, you know, taught at the Elderberry School.  And then I also concurrently had the School of Forest Medicine going for part of that time and had, you know, every year,  you know, at least two groups of, you know, pretty large groups of students to interact with and kind of usher through  these processes.

And in my, in my own life, I found I just don't have the time for that. Anymore to like, really? Mm-Hmm. Connect, which is why I'm doing this video course. And, and I haven't figured out how to create the community around that.  

I'm working on that myself. , it's a challenge. It's, you know, there's so much to be said about that.

Physical hands-on in person in space. Feeling like when I first started teaching herbalism online instead of in person, I'm like, how do I.  Relay the smell, the touch, the taste, like I just remember back in my days with you at Elderberry and like, we tasted every plant, we loved, like we felt what it felt like, you know, and I can't exactly do that, but I'm doing alright in the fostering of the community, but there's, there's some sacrifices that have to be made and some gains as well, because now I have people all over the world that are learning with me.

So that's, yeah. Beautiful. But yeah, a challenge indeed. 

So you can get some tips from you about  

always happy to collaborate and share what I know on all of those things. I love to do that anytime you want outside of a podcast.  But I do want to hear a lot more. 

Upcoming Course and Book

You have a new book coming out. You have this course coming out.

And I know for sure that anybody's learned That's learning about wildcrafting or herbalism in any way, shape or form from you is in great hand. So I would love for you to talk more about that and 

what's going on. Yeah. So the, the,  the course  it's going to be a video, it's a video course of  the main component of it is these.

videos of harvesting, like, so it'll be like bark harvest, we harvest red alder for flowers, we harvest St. John's wort, and I try to make it  plants that are  accessible, you know, across North America and even in Europe, if people want to tap into it. There's, there's a few, there's like, Oplopanax, Devil's Club, which I, I won't get into it now, but I'm trying not to call it Devil's Club. 

You can totally 

get into it if you  want, no worries. But 

I'll just say it really quick because it's kind of off the topic, but I really came to this, it came last summer where it.  I realized it's, I found ways to  make it make sense for me, you know, it's like the club that beats the devils away because it really helps with like negative thought forms and things like that,  but the truth is like the name is given to that plant, and there's places all over the world that are called like Devil's Grove or Devil's Tower, and all those places are places where people communed with nature spirits,  or like plants that have that name or plants that have that Help gain access to that. 

And so it just felt like it was part of this real colonial mindset  that I'm trying to get, you know, extricate myself from, so the plant  many years ago told me, asked me to call it as shusha. So I call it as shusha or op panics. And a lot of people have, call it a shoe. She also, because of the.  Studying with me.

But I 

remember that now. Like as you said it, I was like, oh, ding, light bulb. I remember . Yeah. 

Yeah. I don't have any problem with anybody else calling it Devil's Club. I just, it just, for me, it feels like it's, it's a respectful way of continuing the relationship with that, with that plant. Absolutely. But that's one of the plants that we, I have a video for just because it's such a a unique style of harvesting that really exemplifies this whole regenerative wildcrafting thing. And then  And then because it's just one of the main plants that I work with. So,  so anyway, so then we're, so we have alder,  St. John's wort nettles for leaves, and so there's videos for each type of plant part that can be then extrapolated to other plants of, you know, of that type.

You can harvest any kind of bark. You can use this as the example.  And  it's meant to be a companion to my book, Pacific Northwest Medicinal Plants, because it's, I did, I was able to get a lot of wildcrafting info in there, but, but it,  you know, like you said, even, even like just talking about it online,  and I've taught wildcrafting online for I  had been teaching it for several years and it felt good to get that information out, but it was like,  I know I don't have the capacity with all that I'm doing in my life to get out there, I mean, because it's, you know, there's a whole timing thing and then, like, scheduling, so it was like, taking two years to do all these videos,  get there at the time and do all that stuff, so,  and the videos are,  it's been so fun, I'm working with this, like, a professional filmmaker guy, named Noel Adams, he's And he, you know, together we've just kind of crafted so it's, it's neat.

It's not just  one frame,  you're standing there talking about beautiful film work,  telling  a story, and you know, it's kind of like  getting into where the plant is and all that, so I'm really excited about how, how  how it looks and feels and how it feels like it's gonna,  in the same way that I tried in the book, I'm And it seemed to be successful because people comment on it that they're like, I can feel that there's something more in here that you're trying to say about the plants and I can feel it coming through.

And so I'm trying to do that with these videos too, that there's more to it than just, we're out there harvesting plants.  So there's going to be that. It'll be an online course that is based on the,  the wildcrafting kind of like six hours of wildcrafting  lecture that I've been teaching for, you know, many, many years.

And then the book  is not going to be coming out just yet, but there's going to be a booklet that goes, that would be more like a thing to put like in your back pocket when you take out to help.  It'll have like kind of like the philosophical grounds and like deeper understandings of why we want to do things this way, but then also the very practical like, how do we study ecosystems?

So you can go out there and like be reading this and then have like the ethical guidelines and all that stuff and with you while you're out harvesting. 

Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's the gist of it, but  yeah, 

yeah, that sounds so amazing. Like, I'm, I'm so excited for it to come out and share it with the masses. Like, it's such important work and I can only imagine how beautiful you're going to make it. And especially having like an actual videographer as somebody who What's on online courses and I'm like, here's my zoom video, you know, there's so much to be said about really great quality film work and the knowledge and wisdom that's going to be passed throughout there.

I love it.  It's exciting. I can't wait. When do you anticipate it being 

ready?  Well, we're going to, we're going to do a Kickstarter that's going to come in the beginning of January. Good timing for the podcast. Yeah.  And then,  so people listening to this might be listening to right as that's happening. Mm hmm.

And so that will be to kind of,  I had to borrow money to make this, so to kind of pay that back and then to finish the final editing stuff  and get the, the publishing of the booklet and all the materials that go along with it. And, and we're, we, we'd like it to be ready by February and it might be some, the kind of thing where portions are ready, but the idea is that it's. 

It's also a, it goes by season. So the first video that we, that we videoed and the one, the first one that's going to come out is black cottonwood buds.  And so that one, we want to make sure that that's ready for when it's black cottonwood harvesting time.  

Love that. Actually, I've already seen the buds like dropping down because I have a ton of cottonwoods in my backyard and the buds are already doing their thing, which is so fascinating to see.

The Impact of Seasonal Changes on Plants

I'm like, wait, let's think about February. And they're like, no, we're ready. We just dropped our leaves. We're ready to go. We want the next round. And I'm like, okay, you can do that too. It's cute because as my partner's like cleaning up the yard, he's like, look, I saved you something. And he, you know, brings me this cottonwood branch.

Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Traditional Ecological Knowledge and Its Relevance Today

That, that brings up another topic that's really important in this is that  when I talked about like the traditional ecological knowledge, it was pretty  consistently, you know, the long term study of things that there was a pretty consistent behavior  that we saw, right, and that people saw.

And now it's not like that as I'm sure you've seen where things are happening very erratically, things are blooming out of season and this, so it has a whole another layer and I'll get into that some. in this course. And  I can actually link you know, when we,  you can put links in the, in the podcast to an article that I wrote and also maybe some, a talk that I gave on this topic of wildcrafting in a warming world.

Wildcrafting in a Warming World: Adjusting to New Realities

Wildcrafting in a Warming World: Adjusting to New Realities

That's about how do we as wildcrafters  adjust ourselves?  There's even more factors to consider now because if things are blooming  out of sequence and there's pollinators that need to get the nectar from those plants, we have to be even more careful about how we're harvesting. And then there's also this aspect of like triage where there's certain things that are going to be,  yeah, you know, like it might make sense to, it makes sense for us to consider how we harvest based on like  different factors than just  What we usually consider, I'll just say that for now, about 

the triage. 

Yeah, there's, there's so many things to think about with this.  

The Changing State of Our Environment

With the state of our entire environment,  so many changes, like I just saw, I think last week or so, maybe the week before, how our USDA temperate zones are now different all across the country. If you didn't see that, it's, the latest news!

It's official! The scientists are even seeing it! Like, yeah, it's I laugh. And I don't mean to. I think that's the only thing I can do other than get really sad and angry or what have you. 

The Importance of Proactive Environmental Stewardship

The Importance of Being Proactive in Environmental Conservation

Or just  keep being as proactive as I possibly can and talking with people like you to talk with people that are listening to the show right now and  People like you get your message out and this, this course out is going to be so amazing.

I'm so excited for it. 

Promoting the Kickstarter Campaign

Do you happen to know yet a website for the Kickstarter, like a link for that, if you were going to tell 

everybody listening? It is there, but I'll, I'll, we'll have to just put it in the, we'll put it in the notes. Got it. I don't remember it. 

It's okay. Totally. Okay. I am really excited to connect to that and help get that word out.

And so you can help get your word out. Cause it's invaluable, invaluable. Yeah, of course. I so appreciate what you do. It's  no, no. It's everything.  That noise wasn't supposed to happen on the podcast, but it did. 

The Value of Sharing Knowledge and Wisdom

Okay, Scott, I would love for you to just share even more of Scott's wisdom. If there's somebody out there listening, that's like, Hey, I've been like listening to this herb stuff and I'm kind of into it.

And I think I want to use more herbs and I really want to wild craft. If you just had. One more piece of wisdom to share with them. They're very, very new at it. They're very curious.  What would you 

say to them?  

The Power of Mutually Beneficial Wildcrafting

The Power of Mutually Beneficial Wildcrafting

Well, yeah, the thing I was going to ask if there was another thing I could share, cause we just talked about this dire  situation and how it's, you know, it's so confusing and, you know, to, to be a wildcrafter right now, but  what I was thinking about that came to me was You know, there's, there's these  ways that I call mutually beneficial wildcrafting, you know, and this idea of regenerative doing things of create again, that there's ways that we can harvest that actually we can see make the plants grow more.

And that's a really good thing, I think, for someone to experience, because if  you see that in action, that creates, you know,  a feeling of, oh, yes, this is real, this is actually happening, you know, and like,  Nettles is a great example. Like, when I worked at the herb farm,  we used nettles for  for making the compost that would go to feed the seedlings  that were planted out on the land.

And nettles was a huge component of the compost, so we would cut the nettles. I didn't work there for a long time, but I did apprenticeship and then I stayed on for a season. But I think it would be, the nettles would be cut three or four times in the season and added to the compost pile and they would just keep growing back. 

And  and Norton Daniels of course is really good in compost because it helps make things break down and it's filled with nutrients and minerals so it's really good for the, for the seedlings. But just to see that you could cut this plant and it would come back is great. If somebody has basil plants growing in their garden, even, if you, if you, if you just let the basil plants grow,  Then they'll just kind of do this thing like this, but if you, if you cut them early,  they'll, where you cut them,  it'll, two branches will come out from that point where you cut it, so if you keep cutting it, it'll get bushier and bushier and bushier, and So to find  leaf growing plant, you know, plants that you're harvesting the leaves from, to do that from, I have, you know, you must have, you went to Southern Oregon on the Wild Crafty trip with Elda, right?

Sure did, yeah. The Yerba Santa. 

Yep, I actually still have it sitting in this bottle right here from that time. That was a very spiritual experience 

for me.  Yeah, so we connected deeply with the Yerba Santa plants there  that grow in places where there's been disturbance and where there's been, especially when there's been fires, the seeds need fire to for the seed coating to crack.

The Role of Plants in Ecosystem Regeneration

So they're basically there to wait for a fire so that when a fire comes and the vegetation gets burned away, they can come and grow and then stabilize the soil.  So, What I found in taking groups, there was a specific spot where we'd go and I'd take Elderberry School group there and School of Forest Medicine group there,  and the places where we harvested, the plants just became bushier and bushier and bushier.

And with, with plant, like when I was talking about basil, that's a plant that's in the mint family, so it has oppositely arranged leaves, so they would come out, so you don't have to really think about it for much, you just,  and the two  side shoots will come, grow into new branches.  But with a plant like Iversanta that has alternately arranged leaves. 

The trick is just to cut from a leaf that is pointing outward. So that the new branch also grows outwards, that the plants grow outwards. So in those places where we, you know, two groups of like  12 to 16 people every year were coming and harvesting, you know, a nice bagful for each person. And I also was harvesting for Cascadia Folk Medicines. 

The places where we harvested  were the most healthy, vibrant, lush plants in the whole area. The other ones were kind of, they just grew up kind of scraggly and, you know, did their thing. And there's nothing wrong with that, but just to be able, for someone to be able to see that,  if I If I can interact with this place, I can actually make there be more plants.

I think that's a really good thing to, to instill, like, that sense of  hope, because for me, even, even with all that dire stuff that, you know, we were talking about in the effects of climate change and ecological destruction. 

The Role of Humans in Ecosystems

I still, I mean, there's parts of me that I go into moments of despair, but deep down in my being, I feel so much there's actually a feeling of excitement because  change, change, change happens all the time on this planet and the most, the biggest, you know, flourishings of life have always happened after like mass extinctions, you know, every time that, you know, like when the dinosaurs got killed off, that's when mammal life  you know, exploded into the world and that gave, we wouldn't be here probably if that hadn't have happened.

So not that I want there to be mass extinctions, but that if we look at the resilience of ecosystems, we can see that plants will grow there. They might not be the plants that used to grow there. 

The Importance of Studying 'Invasive' Plants

So another thing that I encourage people to do is to study the plants that  are often considered invasive and that kind of terminology that kind of demonizes them for growing into places, but they're only growing there because.

Usually because there's been some human impact on the land that has created a disturbance that the plants that are  usually growing there  natively aren't able to  respond. So these other plants come and do that. So  looking to those plants, like to me alder is a plant that grows in places of devastation.

So that for me, it's been a teacher about  this whole practice of regenerative. Wildcrafting and just the regeneration of ecosystems and watching how,  how they do their thing has helped me understand how to align myself with those natural processes of renewal in the world. I 

The Positive Impact of Ethical Harvesting

love all that you said there and it made me think of something that happened for me this summer that was beautiful.

So when I ran my product line, I gathered arnica for that and I would do arnica mollus and I had this beautiful field area where I would go gather every.  And I went back there this summer after not being there for a few years, and I, because I started paying people to grow my arnica for me and it was so beautiful, Scott, it was so beautiful.

So much more yellow and abundance and I was like I helped that make that happen because I knew when I was there I was so very intentional with what I was gathering and how I was gathering it and it was such a beautiful reward like literally beautiful because it's a sea of yellow gorgeous arnica everywhere but also knowing that it was even more abundant than it was before just  felt great and like As cheesy as hashtags may be, mine is spread like wildflowers.

And I'm like, perfect. That's exactly what's happening right there. It was, it 

was really beautiful.  

Proud, proud moment there. It's really, really great.  

It feels great to witness that, and it doesn't have to be always so heavy of like, oh, our impact, though we should feel the grief. We can make a difference!

We can feel the grief, but we can also feel that we can make a difference, and that we can really celebrate that. So, I join you in celebrating that. Heck 

yes! We can all make a difference, and I took a video of it, and used it as an educational piece for my students. Like, hey, this is what can happen when you harvest in an ethical way, and here's how you would harvest arnica, if you were to come across abundance and abundance of it.

So yeah. Thank you so much. That, like, I think we can end this show on, like, this positive note of how we can all make this positive difference. Well, yes, the world needs us. That's what it is. It needs us to make this positive difference. So, as we do that, any other last words? Like, let's definitely make sure people know exactly where to find you, so that we will be putting links to all of the things, of course, and we have this Kickstarter coming up in January.

If you guys are listening and wanting to learn more about wildcrafting, you really, really, really need to take Scott's course.  Please you will learn so much. So yeah, let us know how other people can be in touch with you. And if you have, if you are in the Pacific Northwest, Scott's book is Pacific Northwest Medicinal Plants and it's absolutely beautiful, great images, perfect amounts of information to have you out making great medicine and harvesting. 

Amazing plants as well. So yeah,  now I'll let you tell you about, tell everybody about you 

too.  Great. Thank you. So the School of Forest Medicine is my main website forestmedicine. net is the,  is the URL, URL. And from there, there will be, there'll be a page that will lead you to the Kickstarter under  Relationships of Love and Reciprocity, that's the name of the course,  and Cascadia Folk Medicine if you want to get a, get, get, get a hold of some of the medicines that we make.

It's, it's, it's less me making the medicines these days. And there's a good friend and colleague of mine, Samantha Tannis, is making the medicine and, and distributing the medicine. I help a little bit still, and they're still super high quality and all harvested with great care and intention, sung to and prayed with and that is Cascadia Folk Med, yeah, CascadiaFolkMedicine. 

com to get  there. And, yeah, we'll have the Kickstarter link.  And is there anything  else?  Yeah, there's, there's, on my website, there's lots of There's a lot of talks that I've given, and there's definitely some about  wild, wildcrafting and medicine making, but, you know, the, the, also, it's like this, this project is bringing together two things I love dearly, which is the wildcrafting and medicine making, but also this, like, shift in consciousness that needs to happen for us to be able to come back to being beneficial to being beneficial.

Components as humans of the earth system. And that, you know, I think maybe, I don't, I think you invited me to say maybe a last word or two. Yeah. In this. Yeah. Would be  just this idea that kind of what we ended on is that  we can, we can let go of our human centrism that, you know, humans are the center of the universe and we're the all important beings on this planet.

Let go of that, but we don't have to let go of that. We are actually still important. Like we were just discussing it. So we do have an important role to play in ecosystems and, and with our ability to perceive and our ability to understand how things work and, and kind of, if we can align with that and also just to appreciate like the beauty of everything and to bear witness to the, the incredible majesty of life on this planet. 

It is so 

incredible. Yes. One more question for you, Scott. 

The Importance of Song in Connecting with Plants

In your chorus, will you have your 

songs?  No, but I, but I, but I should, I should get them in there. You should 

at least make it some sort of bonus or some sort of perk or something because there's a lot of magic 

to that.  Oh, did you say songs? Yes. Oh, I thought you said My sons.

No, 

no. I mean, sure. But songs. 

Your songs, there be, yes. There, there will be something about, about singing as part of making offerings and, and respect to the planet. Connecting with the plants. There's, yeah, there will be a, a part about the, the importance of song. Mm-Hmm. And,  and the, can I tell one quick little story about songs?

Yes. Okay.    I haven't verified it. You know, myself, scientifically, that the singing makes the medicine better, but I know that it does. And I have a friend who is a Ugandan  medicine person, and he  shared with me that when he was, he was working with a group of people, traditional herbalists, and also people that were trying to bring the herbal, traditional herbal medicine in Uganda into the western hospitals. 

And they were, and they were doing they were just doing studies of the medicinal constituents of plants.  And so he did this little trick with them where he gathered one batch that he sang and prayed with the plants. And then from the same area,  and then harvested the other ones without doing that, and the constituent levels were higher in the ones that were sung to and prayed with.

I have no doubt in my mind about that at all. I definitely saw that with many people in the organ cannabis industry as well. Those that had  songs and connection and such  grew better. So, I love that, that they did that as an actual test too.  Slip that in there. I love that. It's 

beautiful. Songs, plant songs are so good. 

Aren't 

they? So good for us. So good for them. Like it's beautiful. Well, thank you again so much, Scott. I always love when I get to have conversation with you and listen to you and learn from you. And I can't wait to see what's coming up with your new 

course. Great. Yeah. It's been such a pleasure to connect with you too.

I wish we could hang out more. I know. We're not even far 

from each other. 

Not far. We're both very busy, but  maybe we could get our families together. That would be 

beautiful. I would love that. so much. All 

right. so much. Enjoy the rest of the day. You too.