Holding Space as a Healer: Nervous System Herbs, Trauma & Psilocybin ER Nurse & Herbalist Heather Shelton

What does it really look like to hold space for someone in their most vulnerable moments? Heather Shelton, nurse-turned-herbalist and psilocybin facilitator, shares her journey from medical trauma to healing work with nervous system herbs and plant medicine.

Learn about lemon balm, motherwort, and chamomile for everyday support, what happens in a psilocybin session, and why plants have been her greatest teachers. Grounded wisdom for anyone called to healing work.

What's in this episode:

• From medical trauma to herbalism and facilitation work
• Learning directly from plants when teachers weren't available
• What a psilocybin session is really like
• Nervous system support: lemon balm, motherwort, and chamomile
• Creating safety and presence as a healer
• Teaching kids to trust their intuition

For full show notes head HERE

Want to learn from Heather and become the kind of herbalist people trust guide them in their healing journey? The Community Herbalist Certification & Mentorship Program teaches you how to think like an herbalist, hold space for real healing, and show up with herbal skills and the confidence to use them for your community.

Wondering how you can use your herbal skills to help people when times are tough?

Grab Medicine For The People - An Herbalist's Guide To Showing Up For Your Community In Times of Need

It's loaded with ideas and resources to help you help others!💚 Click here to ge

Transcript

Heather’s Path From Nursing To Herbs

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Welcome to the Herbalist Path. If you love learning about the power of plant medicine and how to use it in your life, this show is for you. I'm Mel Mutterspa, clinical herbalist, herbal educator, and your host. In each episode, you're going to hear me sharing herbal insights and knowledge from my 25 plus years of working with and learning from the plants. Plus, I'm going to share interviews with some of the most amazing herbalists, educators, farmers, and healers out there, all bringing their herbal wisdom here for you. Really, this show is all about continuing this movement to put an herbalist in every home and a healer in every community. Again, thank you so much for listening and welcome to the herbalist path. Enjoy the show. Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode on the Herbalist Path. I am personally really looking forward to today's conversation. I'm bringing back a guest, Miss Heather Shelton, who is a fellow herbalist, a former nurse, a brilliant, compassionate, kind, grounded, level-headed, lovely being. She is also a psilocybin facilitator. And when I am in her presence, I get this instant sense of peace. And I have a feeling that's possible for you in this show as well. So Heather, another cool thing about her is we share birthdays. We actually met on a mutual friends herb farm when we both decided to take ourselves to that herb farm to dig up some roots for our birthdays. So the connection there is really beautiful. And I, yeah, I'm super excited to share this conversation with you all. So Heather. Hi, thank you so much for being here. I love being here and seeing you. Yeah. It is always so nice. So nice, nice. I'm I'm kind of bummed. I miss seeing you at the Paul Stametz event that I told you to go to and then I didn't go to. It would have been lovely to get that in-person hug. Um, but anyways, I am so, so, so grateful to have you here right now, especially with some of the things that I know that we're going to be uh talking about today. And when I think about your history in this work as an herbalist and just this natural presence as a healer that you have, I would love to just start out with you sharing a bit of your story and how you came to this space that you are now and being this just this lovely, grounded, safe being that I perceive you as. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah. A lot of nice things you said about me at once. Wow. I mean them all too. I'm gonna just do my best to just take that in. Thank you so much. I appreciate all of those kind words. Um, gosh, how did I get here?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Well, it's a long story, I'm sure. Whatever pieces of it you want to share.

Learning From Plants Without Human Teachers

SPEAKER_00 4:34

I mean, I'm gonna say the plants brought me here. And and truly actually had a moment, um, I'm in a little micro docent. I'm I'm I'm participating in a little microdosing group, which we can talk about in a in shortly. Um but I don't often microdose, but I am in this group, and um I was having a really grumpy day not too long ago. I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, I hadn't slept well. And so I that was one of my microdosing days. And by the afternoon, I this will answer the question eventually. By the afternoon, I you know, I'm kind of headed off to run an errand, and I'm just driving along, kind of thinking about listening to a podcast actually, and thinking, I am so grateful that when I was 21 years old, I met my first teachers who were a midwife, um, a very um, a very opinionated midwife and her incredible naturopath husband. And it changed my life. Um, and it changed my life in so many ways. And I was just having gratitude thinking, wow, if I hadn't met these really incredible outspoken activists, I could have had a really different life. I'm so grateful that this is where I landed at 21 years old, where I learned that plants are medicine, that food matters, that we actually have the ability to care for our bodies and heal our bodies. And that was such a foreign concept to me because I hadn't come from that kind of a life. I'd grown up, grown up really actually steeped in the medical world as a patient. Um, and I'd suffered a lot of harm from that. So when I met these folks and realized there's another way, it was like the clouds opened up and the sun shone down, and I knew that everything I was in the right place. And so through that relationship, I started to learn about herbal medicine and I learned about food and uh I learned about home birth because here I was studying with this midwife. And I'm just so grateful that that it was like that's a huge moment that created this transition and just how I approach everything in my life. Um, and so I just kept following the plants from there, you know. I I went back to Vermont and I didn't have a teacher when I was first there. So I didn't meet Rosemary Gladstar for a couple of years. So and I transitioned because here in Oregon, I'd been learning about Chinese medicine from my naturopath doctor that I was learning from. And I got back to Vermont and I realized, oh, I don't have anyone here. And this is a really complicated topic. Traditional Chinese medicine, wow, it's incredible how it works. I so appreciate practitioners of Chinese medicine. Um and when I got to Vermont and realized I didn't have a teacher, how was I gonna figure it out? Um, once I really sat with it for a while, I realized, well, I don't, I need to know how to use what grows around me. I don't want to have to rely on herbs that are coming from somewhere else in the world because what happens when they can't get here? So that really kind of shifted my personal work. And I did my first um round of Rosemary Gladstar's uh science and art of herbalism. I did it at home. My kids were little, and I just started to learn from the plants because I didn't have a teacher in person, and that was so great. And so I feel like they've been kind of leading me all along. I have had some incredible, so many incredible teachers, um, mostly on the East Coast, because that's where I was for a long time. Um but yeah, so I I guess that's how I got here. I think even with the fungi part of my work, um I I've used mushrooms before I was a facilitator. That did leave me here, my experiences with the mushrooms. Um and you know, I just I kind of fell into that work a little bit. I didn't know that was going to be my future. I didn't know it would even be an option in my lifetime, frankly. So that's amazing. Um and I just got really bold one day during COVID. I I had stopped working as a nurse, I still had a license, but I knew I didn't want to go back. And I had been doing some at-home um work with ketamine as a psychedelic with others, so I was helping other people have ketamine experiences and actually seeing some really lovely shifts for people with ketamine, but you know, I I prefer natural um to synthetic anytime we can have that. And so um I just sent a little email. I knew there was someone in town doing a ketamine IV clinic, and I sent a little email to this therapist and doctor and said, Hi, I'm the nurse you didn't know you needed. And so I showed up to meet them one day, and that was just we all came together right away, and suddenly I was part of that team. And as time went on, Kathy, my therapist friend, had applied to become a psilocybin service center, and we ended up receiving the first license in the nation, and it's been a fun, wild ride ever since.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

I love that. You said so many things, and I'm just like, oh, I want to say something here, but I'm like, no, I'm going to let her speak. But so much of it really fascinates me. And especially the journey of like, you spoke about how you met these first teachers, the midwife and the naturopath, but then you got to Vermont but didn't have teachers. And I was like, But the plants, the plants are your teachers, right? And and I think that's exactly what you were saying there, which is so beautiful. And and I know you had the pleasure of learning and studying with rosemary. And as I sit here, I've I've got on my computer uh one of the stickers from United Plant Savers that I feel like is a rosemary quote. And maybe you can tell me differently, but it's not if you listen, they will teach you. And it's so true, so beautiful. And I love how you're like, oh, the plants brought me here because I can completely relate in a different fashion. I didn't have the human teachers in the beginning, but I was a backpacking guide and wilderness therapist, and I just remember walking along, and these plants are like, Hey, I'm here. And I was like, Oh, and I just, you know, went head first down the path, whether I knew it or liked it, or you know, whether I liked it or not, it was happening. They were like, No, you, you, hey, you, we're here for you. So yeah, they're really beautiful in that way. So that is amazing. And then you spent time also. So you're a nurse, you are a midwife, doula, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Or I don't really work in that capacity so much anymore unless I asked to support somebody, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

And you also did some death doula work as well, right? So you just have so much experience working individually with people. And and as I was mentioning in the beginning, you have this presence that is just like, I am safe with Heather. And it feels really, really nice and it's really beautiful. That's such a gift, and obviously a skill that has grown with you over time, I would imagine. Yeah, with still that innate like inner being just shining through. So I don't really have a question from that. I'm just stating what I see and feel when I speak with you and I'm in your presence.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Um for saying that. I do um, you know, now I can look at my life, I do kind of recognize that the work I've done and all through. Um I tend to like to work at the edge, I think. So, you know, birth, birth, life, and birth, death, and psychedelics, right? They're all these giant life-transforming experiences, you know. And I don't know what it is that called me to that. That just I I've just been noticing that recently. Like, oh, that's interesting about myself that I can see this pattern that's been unfolding for a really long time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's that path.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

That's what I always, you know, it's part of why I call this the herbalist path, like the different directions that the plants have led me on this journey. And looking back at them and like, oh, it didn't make sense then, but now I see it. Now I really, really see it.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

So and I love the path that like every herbalist has their own unique path. Right? That's the beauty. There's no right or wrong way to do it. Some people like to grow the herbs, and some people want to harvest seed, and some people make medicine, and some people want to work with other humans. And you know, some people just want to sit in the woods and listen, and that's beautiful and amazing, right? And it's to me just as valid as sitting across a desk and having a conversation with someone. Um, you know, because it's the plants are here for all kinds of reasons, not only for our benefit, right? Um, yeah, absolutely.

Working At Life’s Edges: Birth, Death, Psychedelics

SPEAKER_02 13:48

That's such a valid point. And you know, some of some of those people will dabble in all of it, you know. And yeah, that's I mean, that's part of the fun, right? Yeah, exactly. Is this is this it? I don't know. Is there an it or is it all of it? I think is it's really part of the fun thing, too. So I want to kind of start to tap in. I know I I follow you on social media and you do these great walks with Winnie, your pup, and share lots of thoughts and ideas and feelings that you are going through in the moment. And recently you were doing a class on nervous system work. And at this time in our world when things may feel significantly crazier than they ever have been, I think this work is so important. And so I just kind of want to step into that piece of this conversation and thinking about, you know, if people are so overwhelmed with the state of the world right now or the state of their own intimate lives, if they're blocking out the state of the world. How can we support ourselves through all of the madness? Or what are some ways? Obviously, it's gonna be different for everybody. But I'd just love to hear you speak about that a little.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Well, there's definitely plants that support us in there. Um, and and we'll talk a little bit about those too. But I think even before we delve into the plants, there's some other important pieces. And a lot of them are some are our overall lifestyle choices, right? I mean, I watch your social media too. So I know that you go out and visit your river every day. Stepping outside, I think, is one of the most beneficial ways to regulate our nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

You know, people talk about grounding, grounding's excellent. If you could take your shoes off and step on the earth barefoot, that is really powerful. But just the act, you can leave your shoes on, you could just step on your front porch and go outside and look outside. Just take a moment, let your eyes go as far as the horizon, take in the colors of nature and what's around you. You know, if you live in a city, you might feel like, oh, I don't, there's not a lot of nature. There's nature. And really, when you step outside and you look around, you're gonna see the tree and the bird and maybe a little flower, maybe a dandelion is growing up in the crack of the sidewalk. You know, nature is there. We are nature, right? So when we step into nature outside and we take some nice deep breaths of fresh air, we put our feet on the ground, our nervous system is going to regulate, right? So that's my favorite way. Um, is just to get outside, to get into nature, to be one with nature for a little while. That is a huge, huge tool.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Big believer in that as well. I've always been like, gosh, of all the herbs I know about, all the herbs I've tried, all the other things I've tried throughout life, nothing soothes the soul and makes me come back to self better than my time in nature. And you're right, it doesn't have to be something exponential. Not everybody has a beautiful mountain river in their backyard like I do. But even on my like days when I'm really crunched for time, if I'm feeling the stress and the pressure, and I'm just like, ugh, today was one of those days for me. Like you said earlier, you woke up and had a grumpy day. That was me today, my poor partner getting my text. And like then by the time I rolled around to our call, I was like, okay, I'm I'm feeling better. And I didn't have much time, but I was able to go on my back porch and just take three deep breaths, yeah, and then walk back in. And that was just so nice, so easy, so free.

Nervous System Basics: Nature, Breath, Stillness

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, yeah. And I encourage folks, I work with a lot of folks who don't have yard, you know, they don't have a big yard and they don't have the forest nearby. And um, you know, a practice that I encourage people to try is just sitting outside next to a plant, a plant or a tree and doing nothing, just sitting there. Because what happens over time is you start to maybe we start to hear things or we start to just notice little things that we weren't noticing before. And after you've been sitting outside, maybe you've gone out in there five days in a row, that would be amazing, but five times in the last two weeks or so. The sixth time you go out, suddenly you feel like you're a part of it, right? And that and that you know this tree that you're sitting next to. And so it just there's this shift that happens even when we're not really paying attention to it. So that's one of the top things I recommend to people is to get out into nature. I love that. The other is meditation, and let's talk about this for a minute because I cannot tell you how often I say that word and somebody goes, I'm really bad at meditating. I've tried. And then maybe we say, Well, why do you think you're bad at meditating? Well, I have thoughts. The thoughts are always there. Here's the thing the thoughts are always there for everyone, including monks who meditate all the time, right? And so I feel like we've all have the a little bit of this misconception about what meditation is that we close our eyes and we're just breathing and we don't have any thoughts. That's not really what it's about. I mean, it's great, and and it's someday if we keep practicing, maybe we attain that. We don't have any thoughts for 10 minutes. Wow. That's amazing. It takes practice, right? And and so the practice is that we just close our eyes and we breathe. And a thought will come in and we recognize, oh, I'm having a thought. And then you go back to your breath, and another thought will come in. There's a thought. Let me go back to my breath. So, you know, I'm working all the time when I'm meditating because I'm breathing and then I'm recognizing the thought, and I have to go back to my breath. And I recognize the thought and I go back to my breath. I'm not an expert meditator. I I have not reached a space where I can have a quiet mind for 30 minutes with no thoughts. And I just don't know who can, frankly.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yeah, I think I feel like the term expert meditator in itself is a farce. Like, you're right. The thoughts are always there. That is the human brain. It is always thinking, and we can allow them to pass through, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

And then we learn that we're not our thoughts. You know, that's really, I think, the long-term lesson of meditation is that it helps us to recognize I'm not my thoughts. And and because sometimes we have bad thoughts about ourselves, we're not those thoughts. We're just our um yeah, so so meditation again is one of the best tools, I think, for nervous system support. And it's a practice. We're just practicing meditation. No one's an expert, but maybe there's some monks that are experts. Um, but you know, I bet they would say, Well, I have thoughts too, and it's just practice, and I'm not an expert either. So it's it's such a great tool. And my favorite meditation to start with, because I'm sure there's folks who are listening who are gonna say, Well, she's saying all of this, but I can't meditate because I have too many thoughts. Well, I have ADHD, and let me just tell you what happens to my brain. My brain is like um bouncing off the walls a lot in the day. Sometimes at night too, but usually more in the day, thankfully. And um one of the meditations that I love the best that I feel like was really helpful, and um, especially if you have a mind like mine that bounces all over the place is lighting a candle and staring at the flame. And part of why I love that meditation for those of us who are really um very active thinkers is that you're actively doing something. So, yes, you're still just breathing, and a thought may come and you go back to the breath and back to the breath. So we're still doing the same type of meditation practice. The thought comes, we go back to the breath, but we're also actively watching that flame. And for someone with ADHD whose brain wants to be doing all these things at the same time, it can be really helpful to be actively doing something, staring at the flame. So I love that meditation. It's how I started my kids with meditating when they were really little. Um, so just even setting a timer, one minute. Start with one minute staring at a candle flame and just see how that goes. Then you could go to two minutes. And just to, you know, take a notice if if you don't notice a subtle shift in your nervous system after practicing for a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

I love that flame flame tip. Yeah, isn't that a great one? It is a great one, and it just takes me to all the times I've just stared at a campfire. Obviously, we can't always build a campfire in our home quickly, but have a candle. Absolutely. I love that. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah, so that's one I love. Um, let's see, humming is actually really good for your nervous system. Um, especially when our nervous system is feeling dysregulated and and especially in like heightened dysregulated moments. So, you know, maybe something really stressful just happened, or you had a big fight with your partner, and you're just feeling Hard to get anything done. Something that's really simple that we can do just to kind of get ourselves calm to a place of figuring out what's next is to hum.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

When your tween is tweening, yes, yes, you're gonna hum a lot in the next couple years.

Meditation Myths And Candle Practice

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Aren't I though? Um, exercise, of course, is a great tool. Um dancing, grounding, breathing. So we're talking about breathing and meditation type forms, but also breath work. So breathing with a focus of breathing. Um, and that can look all different ways that you can go to breath work classes. I tend to be a very um, I love the really slow deep inhale where it fills everything up, and then the really slow exhale. And um, I do about six breaths a minute when I do that, which is pretty slow. So I'm doing, I'm um breathing pretty slow. That's considered breath work. I find that it helps me, takes me to my really my inner healer into my deeper place and really quiets everything that's going on. So that's super helpful. Yeah. And there's herbs. I like those. Yeah, we love those. And so many good ways to use our herbs, right? Like making a cup of tea, if you really decide to give yourself the 10 minutes and say, I'm just gonna take 10 minutes to make a cup of tea. Picking the herbs and putting them in your teapot and waiting for the water to boil, and then pouring it over, and depending on the tea you're making, hopefully it's something that smells good or you like, and then taking a minute to just sit with your teacup and feel its warmth and smell it, and then take a sip. That whole process has just slowed your nervous system, right? Baths. I think that baths are an underutilized way to support our nervous system and not eat not only full body baths, which are awesome, but sometimes that takes a long time. It takes my bathtub 30 minutes to fill up with hot with hot water. So it's gonna be that's like an hour and a half project for me if I'm gonna really have a bath because I always like to read when I'm in the bathtub too. Right. But a hand and a foot bath, we can do those in 10 minutes, 15, 20. And so we're just taking a moment to sit and maybe put our hands in some nice warm water that's full of herbs, you know, and just feel what that feels like on your body. I mean, part of what is I think important to learn, and and this is related to our nervous system is how's my body feeling right now? Right? Because this is part of being stressed and living in this world we live in. We can get to such a place of stress that we dissociate, that we're just, I just don't want to deal with that, right? I mean, I think a lot of us feel that way about the news and what's going on in the world. I know I do. I just like I don't even want to see that. I don't want to think about it, I don't want to talk about it. It's dissociation, right? And we do that from our our emotions too. I mean, I think it's sometimes really good to dissociate from media. We do not, that's not our whole lives. And it's media is not necessarily what's true, also. Um, so I think that creates a challenge with that. But you know, overall, if we have hard emotions, a lot of us are really good at just pretending that they're not happening and dissociating. I don't want to feel that right now. I don't want to feel that. So learning how to feel what's going on in our own body is really important. Um, it can be scary. That's something I see in my work with psilocybin. Suddenly someone's feeling the feelings in their body they hadn't felt for a really long time, and that can be overwhelming.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

That they tucked away because they didn't want to feel.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Well, and when we're children, you know, like we're we have really poor examples in society of how to handle negative emotions. So even when we're little children, you know, maybe we're scared or sad or confused, and we don't know what to do with that. And so most humans, even if you had the best parents ever, have some stuff that we've stuffed inside, some shame, some sadness, some grief, some things we maybe didn't even understand. Um, and then, and then very many people have much greater traumatic experiences they have dealt with in their lives that are also being held inside. But just on this very base, let's we're gonna just go to very basic level of holding on to this stuff. We've stuffed it in, we don't even know what it is. But when we when we practice dissociating and not feeling our feelings, then it's really hard for us to tell if we're in alignment in life, right? It's hard to know is this the right thing for me or not? And so I feel like a lot of us need to come back to practicing um the practice of recognizing how am I feeling right now? What am I feeling in my body? Is this like tight chest feeling I'm having because I'm angry, or am I sad, or am I scared, or what is this? Right? Because often we don't even know, we just know it's this really bad feeling that I don't want to feel this feeling. So I'm gonna try to run away from it. Um and and all of this is going back again to the baths of the nervous system, right? Because taking a moment to sit and put your hands in some warm water, which has hopefully got tea in it, because that's how I like to do my hand and foot baths is with herbal tea. Um, it gives us a moment to put our hands in the water. How am I feeling? How do my hands feel in the water, first off? Like physically, how how am I feeling with my hands in the water? This feels really nice. How's the rest of me feeling? Maybe I'm noticing my neck feels really tense. I wonder what I'm so tense about. You know, it just is an opportunity to sit with yourself for a good 15 minutes and just pay attention, you know, because we have to recognize what's going on in our body to be able to recognize the shifts when they happen. That's so important.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Yeah. And to allow yourself to have those feelings, I think is a very important piece. I definitely had a moment of that this morning because I woke up grumpy and I I knew kind of the trigger to my grumpiness. And then I had to just allow myself some time to be like, okay, that's why you feel this way. And if you need to cry, you can cry about that now. Like let that out and then go outside. Is what that was my medicine. That was my exact medicine right there. And take a few breaths. So yeah.

unknown 30:01

Yeah.

Breathwork, Humming, And Simple Rituals

SPEAKER_00 30:03

And let it happen. Because feeling the emotion, I mean, once we feel it, it makes its way through. And then we can release it and be done with it, you know. And I think that's, you know, when we look at things like resentment and anger, I mean, anger, unreleased anger or unprocessed anger turns into resentment, right? And resentment turns into a lot of sad relationships, and it also harms our physical body. I mean, I I really believe that holding on to deep resentment harms our physical body. And there's lots of, there's a lot of support in that when we study energy medicine. And I know some people feel like that stuff is woo-woo, but I see it and I see it a lot. And I see it, I've seen it with people who I love. I've seen it with um a lot of people I've worked with in the world of cancer. Um, and I see it in my work I do now, you know, and and just like you said, it's so important to feel the feels. And in my work I do now with Silicon, that's part of what is happening for people when they have an experience. They're feeling the feels that they've been holding on to for a really long time, and then they can let go of them, you know, and it's so incredible to witness. Such a powerful process. Scary for people too, you know. And and again, this is why we do a lot of these practices to learn how to regulate our nervous system, even before somebody has a journey, right? Because I want people to know that they can go back to their breath. They've got tools. We have tools, we have so many tools. Um, we just don't know what they are, and we've kind of forgotten how to use them. So learning how, you know, learning our own ways. We all have our own inner healer. And so just learning how to tap into that and listen to it. Um, I think it helps us to regulate our nervous system overall.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

I agree. Yeah. And it's a practice, you know, and you'll find what works for you may be different from what anything we've said on this show so far, you know, and or from what your best friend does. So that is is it's a very unique and individualized practice. It is.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

It is. And for some people, they can do longer, you know, they can sit for a longer time. You know, I have a friend, he meditates every day, he sits for 30 to 40 minutes. I can't sit on 30 to 40 minutes. Yeah. You know, um, but I can sit for shorter periods of time. And so maybe my meditation is only 10 minutes that day, but I did already my gratitude practice before I got out of bed. And I went for a walk and I spent times in the woods and I took some nice deep breaths. And I'm drinking some really lovely tea to support my health and my nervous system. And then before I go to bed tonight, I'm gonna also do my gratitude practice. I'll probably journal, you know. So, and yes, that's a lot to do in a day. Um, but I also find it's really what I need. Um, and and for me, because I can't do the 40 minutes, I do my 40 minutes in little chunks throughout the day, you know? Um, and that's just how it works best for me.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yeah, I'm I'm the same way. Though in the summertime when I have more daylight, I can I usually get to have my evenings that are both a long walk in the woods by myself, and I'll usually sit on a rock on a river, and then I'll be able to get into 20, maybe I'm about a 20-minute max kind of meditation time person, but that walk in the woods is also so much a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Absolutely. And people can do walking meditations. I mean, I'm a spinner. Yeah, I spin wool, and so when I'm spinning, it's very meditative for me. I mean, every thought I have just disappears, and all I focus on is just this wool going through. So um, you know, there's there's we're all gonna find our way, but it's that's an important part of nervous system health is finding our ways.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

I love that. Yeah, yeah. It's awesome. I know I keep hearing you speak about the people you well, you're not really speaking about the people, but the the psilocybin process and the release there. And I'm sure that there's a lot of people that may be lacking some understanding on the power of that process and how it really truly does help people on such an incredibly deep level. And I'm wondering if you are willing to share some of that, what you have seen through the actual practice and uh working with people in that way.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Um let me think about what story I might want to tell or how we want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah, I know obviously you're not gonna share a particular client's specific journeys or personal details, but just how Yeah, I think I'll just give a couple examples, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Um I mean, this one is coming to mind, and so I'm just gonna share this one to start, is that I worked with um a really lovely human who lives in a big urban area, has a very kind of high, um, very busy career, very busy career in a suit, tie, and all that stuff um in a big urban area. And when he contacted me, he was just suffering from extreme anxiety, extreme anxiety, just worried about everything all the time. It was really affecting his life. And it had been happening for a pretty long time for him. And he came for a session, and and I, and I spend a couple hours with each person before they come in to just educate and get to know each other so they can feel comfortable with me and you know, and to talk through what this experience may be like to the best of my ability, because these are usually ineffable experiences, hard to describe in words. Um, you know, so he came for his experience. He was so nervous. I mean, he was literally shaking when he came in. And um, you know, I feel really strongly that people need to be ready for these experiences. You can change your mind all the way up until you put those mushrooms in your mouth. It's about what is right for each individual, you know. So he's there very, very nervous. And something I like to do with my clients if they are open to it before a session is we always do a smudge. And so, um, you know, we kind of had his mushrooms mixing, and I said, I'd love to let's go outside and we'll do the smudge. And so we went outside and we did the smudge, and I said, you know, I just want you to know you do this if it feels right to you. If you don't feel like this is the right thing for you today, that's okay. Just know that. And by having that conversation with him, that gave him the confidence. He said, you know, I just felt better after that. And so he came in and he ate his mushrooms, I mean, shaking while he's eating his mushrooms, which, you know, as the facilitator thinking, uh-oh, this could go all different ways, you know. Like, I hope, and so I'm always just I'm just aware. I'm always aware. Of course. And this is where, and thank you for commenting all the nice things you said about me.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

I I'm like, see, everything I said in the beginning, she's proving in this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

So well, it is, I do, I think that is one of my skills, is that it and I it is absolutely true all the way across the board that however, like my energy affects what's going on around me, right? All of us, that is true for all of us. Our energy affects what's going on around us, right? Because we are part of the environment. And so, and I learned this from back in when I was 21, from a very young age, from that midwife. Um, you know, you never let them see you sweat is kind of the what I learned, not in those words, but um, so anyway, I just remained really calm. He had his mushrooms. It was such a great day. He sat in his chair for probably five hours and over and over just said, I cannot believe how good I feel. I cannot believe how good I feel. I've never felt this good before. I mean, I can't believe I've been worrying about all that stuff for all these years, and I can see now that that was just such a waste of my time. Those things didn't really matter, you know, and it was so profound. Um, and I was so glad that he had felt in himself the call to have the mushrooms because it really shifted things for him to be able to take a step back. This is the beauty of the mushrooms, I think. They give you this giant step back so you can look at things in a fresh perspective, you know. And for him, that fresh perspective helped him to see that, oh, I'm worrying about these little tiny things that are not worth my energy and my life, you know, because it takes your life, your life force and your energy. Um, so that just that was a beautiful experience. For him, that wasn't as much of a purge, a release type of purge. Um we do talk a lot about working, um, which is not always vomiting. I know for a lot of us in kind of medical and clinical field think of vomiting, which some people do throw up. That's true. Um, it's not that common, actually. There are all kinds of ways we can purge. And so we can purge by vomiting. Again, very infrequent, I would say. The most common form of purging that I see are tears.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Tears are a form of purging. Laughter can be a form of purging, movement, like any kind of movement, movement you want to make, also just tremoring. I've definitely worked with folks, and all of a sudden their whole bodies are tremoring, they're releasing. That's a trauma release um experience. People do that with their therapists sometimes. It's actually a really great way to release trauma. It's something we can do on our own, just shake it out, right? You've probably done that before. Yeah. Um, yeah, talking. Talking is also a huge form of purging. And I do work with a lot of talkers. Um, and and I just listen. That's my job. My job's to listen, my job's to really maintain my calm, um, and just to be there. And so I do a lot of listening. I think that's an excellent form of purging. And I find um, particularly with men and especially older men, I do a lot of listening. And if we think about culturally, um now, I think that it's not easy for men to talk about emotional things. But especially, you know, I work with folks who grew up in the 50s and the 60s who didn't come from families who talked about anything. So um, I do a lot of listening in those sessions, and that's a way that people purge emotions too.

Purging, Trauma, And Safe Release

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Yeah, absolutely. I can see where this would be such an impactful form of therapy, especially for that older man demographic coming from that era where, you know, don't you cry, boy? Yeah, crying's for wussies, you know, like oh I don't get to feel.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Which is even, you know, and even that, I think how many of us were told that when you were a kid? You're crying for something, right? What are you crying for? Yeah, right. Well, I'm already crying because I'm sad, but somebody has told me I'm not sad and I shouldn't be crying. And that's very confusing, right? So, what do we do with that sadness? We just stuff it in there, you know. So, even in our, I mean, our parents, I I really try to honor parents. I think that most parents uh have absolutely are doing the best they can or did do the best they could. Um, it's also part of how we learn things, right? But most of us have some of that stuff where we've been told to stuff it down. And and especially um, especially older men. And I think the mushrooms just help relax enough, you know, so that these things can come out and they don't have to hold on to that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah, it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. I know I always kind of thought about some of those experiences in my life as the for me, it was like this a can opener for the brain that opened up the brain to be able to be like, now I can see all of these things from a very different perspective than I ever was able to, but also to release the things that you were never able to release. It's like beautiful. Beautiful. I'm so grateful that it's coming out more as the therapeutic agent that it truly, truly is. So and it's not for everybody. So I love that when you're working with your clients, you're like, hey, if if this is not the time, that's okay. You don't have to do this. And that's a part of meeting people where they're at, you know?

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we have some folks they'll sign up for their session five months ahead of time. And then that way they get this this opportunity to practice meditation. Maybe, maybe somebody's never journaled in their whole life. And I can we can offer some journal prompts. Here's a place to get started, just to do a new practice, just to think about some things in a way you haven't thought about it before. And and for some people, psilocybin will never be right for them. Right. But that's true with all kinds of plants and herbs and medications, right? Absolutely. 100%. Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, and we really do, I mean, especially in in my center where I work, and I think that all facilitators or most facilitators in the state of Oregon are really taking safety seriously. And we have some state guidelines and um to follow for people who would not be appropriate for these experiences. And frankly, um, people are really appreciative that we're honest. Yeah. You know, because they're big experiences. And so I if if it doesn't seem like this is the right thing for someone, I they often appreciate that we've said that and been honest.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

So instead of just like, nope, give me your money. That's all I'm here for. Yeah, right. Let's just see how dysregulated we can get you today.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yeah, no, I don't want to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Absolutely not. That is not a a space I would want to be in on either end of the scenario. So yeah, that's really important. So so as we get back to before we get back to like herbs and and and I guess we're still talking about the inner system, but just talk a little bit about, you know, we're in Oregon. So we currently are able to work with people. Certain people are, licensed people are able to work with people in this way. So can you just touch base a little bit on some of the legalities and those kinds of things around it?

Psilocybin Facilitation: A Client Story

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah. So currently Oregon, Colorado. Offer legal psilocybin options to folks in the United States. Just a couple months ago, New Mexico just legalized psilocybin for therapeutic use. And just I think yesterday in New Jersey, a bill passed. Theirs is quite different. That's going to be for medical use only. And I'm not really sure if they've kind of figured out what that will look like. But in Oregon, anyone can come. So you don't have to be an Oregon resident. You can live anywhere in the U.S. We've served international folks as well. Can come to Oregon and participate in a psilocybin experience. For those of us who work in the field, to become a facilitator, you have to go to a state-approved psilocybin facilitator training program, which also does include practicum. And so most students will have their own psilocybin experience and sit with someone else while they have a psilocybin experience. In order to have these experiences, you do have to have them in a licensed legal service center. So I work at one in Eugene. And the clients, we we so the state regulations, we do a little bit more than what the state requires. Where I work, we we have three hours of preparation. The state requires just one. Doesn't feel like enough time to really get to know each other. Um then we'll have the session, and then afterwards, we do two hours of private integration. The state requires that we offer integration. There's no requirement on the integration piece. Again, this is really individual-led. And so people need to come autonomously on their own. We only see people when they come on their own accord, not somebody brought them because they want them to have help. That feels really important. Um and so people will have their preparation. If they're not in Oregon, maybe they'll do that from wherever they live. We do that online usually, and then they come to the service center. When you get to the service center, you purchase the psilocybin there. You must consume the psilocybin there, and then you spend the day with your facilitator in the service center. And then at the end of the day, when someone is back to baseline and they feel ready to go, then they'll be released for the day. And I usually talk to my folks the next day. I like to have a touch-in within 24 hours, see how you're doing. And then typically it's about a week later that we have a first integration session, and then maybe a month after that.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

I feel like that follow-up piece would be really important to just make sure that you're getting the full benefits of that experience.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Definitely. Definitely. Because sometimes, you know, if someone has a difficult experience, um, you know, and and experiences come in all different ways. Um, some people at the end of their administration session are leaving and they've like forgiven their mother and they've seen their whole life history and they know their path forward. And other people leave and they say, I don't really know what happened. I don't know what just happened. And that's okay. That's actually really normal. Um, I mean, I try to let everyone know this is really normal. And the truth is, you might not know what that meant for a long time. It could be weeks, it could be a couple of months, really, that we're still unpacking. And and I like to share this story with my clients that I had a journey. I can't, I can't remember the years now because my years are all they keep going by really fast. But a couple of years ago, I had a really large experience and I did a lot of um, there was a lot of my nuclear family involvement, my parents, my grandparents, and I really felt, you know, a couple weeks gone by and I thought I've integrated this. I I get the message. It was really beautiful experience and very positive. And a year later, my dad died, and I went home to take care of him while he was dying. And I I realized in that experience that that psilocybin journey had been preparing me. You know, things that had come up in the journey that I didn't understand yet until I got there at my dad's bedside, you know, and so um I think of it as the gift that keeps giving in those ways, you know, and because what it what's happening scientifically is that when we consume the psilocybin, it converts into something called psilocin or psilocin, and that's able to cross the blood-brain barrier. And once that happens, what's called the default mode network of our brain quiets down. And the default mode network is the part of our brain that's taking in everything around us. There's so much to take in around us, and this default mode network filters out the parts that we feel are unimportant so that we can, oh, I see that tree, you know, versus seeing every tree, every color, every bug, every light in the universe, right? Because that's all there too. So when our default mode network shuts down, the other parts of our brain suddenly can all talk to each other, right? And so we're learning, we're just we're learning about ourselves in these experiences because other parts of us are talking to our to each other, you know? And I it I love that. Um I kind of lost my train of thought.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Default talking talking about the science of how it all works within the brain and the solosin and how we get to reconnect with our true selves is kind of what I'm gathering out of it.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Yeah, I was going into that for some reason, but I can't remember why. But anyway, we're talking about the science. So what happens is your default mode network shuts down, and these other parts of our brain can, oh, I know what it is, start to talk to each other. And and really what's happening is our awareness is growing, right? So when we come out of these experiences, we have more awareness of our own selves, of the world around us, of things that maybe we haven't even seen before. Like, did you know? Well, I know that you know this that plants breathe, right? But you know, I have a lot of clients who haven't really known in their soul that plants breathe. But once they've sat with silcybin for five hours and watched the plants breathe, now they know it. And now it's a knowing. There's no question. Like, I know this now. Plants breathe. So our awareness expands in these experiences, and it that doesn't change, you know. Like once your awareness has expanded and you recognize new things, then we always know those new things now. And so um, I just it's like so incredible how these little tiny, often nondescript mushrooms, right? If you find them in the wild, they look like a lot of other little brown mushrooms can totally transform your life and your vision and your understanding of the world. I love it. So cool.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

So cool, so cool indeed. Yeah. Before we started this podcast episode, I was mentioning to Heather that I have just been feeling this call to be a facilitator for others. And it's it's really fun to listen to this journey and how helpful it can be for people if and when they are ready, if or when. So that's really, really beautiful. Um and I want to tie all of this back to herbs. And obviously, psilocybin is a next level kind of care for the nervous system and trauma healing and so on and so forth. And also, herbs can be incredibly supportive allies when we are going through challenging times in life or, you know, just need more of that support, even beyond like what you were saying in the beginning, how our first steps are time and nature, breath work, meditation, right? And when we can integrate those things into our lives, then we can find these other herbal allies that can support us as well.

unknown 53:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

So yeah, I want to just chat about some of those herbs.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Well, today I was thinking about this while I was making my tea. Um, I thought, what herbs shall I put in my tea so that we could talk about the nervous system herbs? Um, and I will say probably the one that's most beneficial for my nervous system today that's in my tea, is lemon balm. And I know that you speak, Melissa. Yes, and I've heard you share about lemon balm. And it's such a great herb because it tastes good and kids like it, and grown-ups like it, and it makes us feel good. I really love that it doesn't make me tired. Um, you know, in the apprenticeship, we have a whole lesson on nervines, and so and it coincides with the day where we learn about herbs and water, right? So decoctions and fusions and teas and all these different ways we can use water. On the end of those days, I am so tired because we do the Materia Medica. Once you've had like seven, so relaxed. So relaxed. Sometimes it's hard for me to finish that day. And I'm like, is everyone safe to drive home? You know? So lemon balm is lovely because it's relaxing, but it's also energizing. So it doesn't bring about that nice, super relaxed, I want to take a nap kind of feel.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

I feel like it's I I always call it nature's sunshine and how it's very uplifting to the mood, yet so supportive for the nerves when when you're down. Like it it's yeah, it's got a beautiful balance in the ways that it does its work.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Both things at once that we might think are opposite, but they're not opposite. Um, and lance are so great like that, aren't they? Where I love them. Like they can relax you and and cur and revitalize you at the same time. I mean, that's awesome, right? Yeah, it's so good. Yes. So this is a favorite. Um, this is a favorite one for kids too. I'm sure I know you talk about this one with your nice and making mamas. Lots. Yeah. So, and I mostly have lemon balm and tea, although I do make glycerite with it sometimes some summers just because it's so tasty. Um, but I don't tend to use it much in a tincture form. I mean, frankly, I have transitioned a lot from tinctures and I use water. I mean, I I've in part because I'm not a clinical herbalist, right? I don't spend, I do see people, I have kind of a specialty in the work that I do um with clients, and mostly I work with cancer care, and I work a lot with people who want to use medical cannabis. So that's really why folks come um for those consultations. And we might add in some other herbs along the way, but it's it in the back there. There's that cupboard's full, and I've got, you know, this office is also my messy apothecary. So I've just noticed I've transitioned a lot from tinctures because I just don't use them as much. I don't really sell products. Um, so I do a lot of drying herbs and then a lot of tea. Um, and not everything tastes good in tea, so like mother wart, I always have in a tincture. That is another one of my favorite nervines that we could talk about. Um I have my I like to make motherwort rose, is my blend. And um, I I harvest my roses off this beautiful island 10 miles off the coast of Massachusetts when we go there every year. Um, the Rosa Rugosa, it's my favorite for medicine. It's just fragrant and delicious. And these particular roses, because they're growing on a little rock in the ocean, I just feel are really medicinal. They bring some extra stuff with them. Um and so I make a mother wort rose tincture. We all carry it in our pockets. I have it in my bag, my daughter carries it in her bag. It's probably that is one that I end up selling to people because it's so great and we all use it. Um and the times that I like to use mother wort really specifically for folks who are having anxiety with heart palpitations. That's kind of a key indicator. But I have found this mother wort rose to be really helpful for folks who are having any kind of anxiety. Um, someone who's heading into a panic attack, mother wort rose can be so helpful. It's amazing how quick it works, too. I mean, I guess it's not because we're herbalists and we know, but every time an herb works, I get so excited.

Brain Science: Default Mode Network And Insight

SPEAKER_02 58:19

Oh, every time, still to this day. Like it's so much fun to see that happen, isn't it? I know, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 58:25

And I'm like, oh my god, you know all the technicalities and the science, and you've seen it happen over and over, and then it works again, and you're like, And then it's so exciting, yes.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

I love that, love that too. And the beauty of being an herbalist and playing with plants, you know, and it's a never-ending learning adventure, isn't it though?

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Yeah, learning and experimenting and being in a new relationship with a new plant and learning about the plants, learning about other people, learning about the therapeutic uses. And as you spoke earlier in our conversation, we're always learning about ourselves in that whole piece. And what a blessing to be on such a journey.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Yeah, I love the personal growth path, really. You know, um, I mean, it's not always easy. There's definitely times where I'm like, oh, I don't I didn't choose this, I don't think I wanted this. But afterwards, when I look back at whatever was really difficult, I'm usually grateful for the lesson that I learned. Absolutely. Yeah. So many of them.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

So many. And without them, you know, we wouldn't become the wise beings that we are.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

So and the hardest lessons often teach us, or the hardest experiences tend to teach us the most impactful lessons. You know. When we're willing to learn sometimes, maybe when we're willing, maybe we really need, you know. I mean, see, I I don't want to gloss over like trauma because it's huge and real. And yes, those experiences, and and for a lot of people, once you've come through or been able to release some of that stuff that's been held inside, or you know, you've gotten a lot of support, whatever, however, we get there, most people afterwards are able to look at a situation and say, I learned a lot from that, right? Even if it was really shitty. Um, and sometimes what we learn is sad. We don't want to have to learn that, you know. I didn't want to have to learn that as a woman, I'm always at risk when I walk down the street. That's also a really rough lesson to learn. I didn't actually want to know that, but I'm I'm pretty glad I know that now. You know, and now I walk down the street differently than I used to. And so um, I'd love to live in a world where that wasn't the reality, but that's not the world I live in. So I now I can look back and say, I'm glad I learned that lesson then. Yeah, glad I learned that lesson then because now I can help young young women to say, Hey, here's what I learned, here's how I learned it. Um, it wasn't fun. And here's some things that you can do to keep yourself safe when you're out, you know. Um so I so I'm not trying to gloss over trauma in any way by saying that we learn from the lessons. I just want to be really respectful because I know that uh many of us are still suffering from the trauma we've had in our lives. I also just want to say that there really are a lot of tools. There's so many tools, and there really are a lot of helpers in the world. And and what we've been talking about, ways to support our nervous system. This is the work. Whether you've had a big T trauma or a little T trauma. I mean, it it is part of the work learning how to regulate our nervous system, going back to the breath, back to the breath, and back to the breath.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

So yeah. Such important work. So there's there's one other herb. Well, we can talk about more herbs forever and ever, but there is one that you had mentioned before we actually hit record on this. And I'm kind of curious about it because it's one of those herbs that I started seeing on social media a few years ago. And I will admit I am the first person that's like, oh, something's trending, and I hate it. And I continue to see this particular herb come up again and again and again and more and more often now, several years later, from people that I greatly respect. So I'd love to hear about your experiences and thoughts on this beautiful herb. Like it's always been very pretty. And I was like, is that why everybody loves it? Because it's pretty. Um, yeah, but it's butterfly pea flower, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

Yes. And I'm just gonna admit that I don't really know much about it either. And I know your experiences. Well, why I'm working with it is because it's beautiful. So you know, and being a fellow Libra, beauty is the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Our day is the day of high romance. Do you know that, Heather? No, have you ever seen the book of birthdays? I I think I have it's a really big, it's a big blue book. There's also the book of relationships by the same people. And our day, October 8th, is the day of high romance. And that's not just like, oh, baby, I love you, but we are always seeking the beauty in nature and music and dance and the things all around us. And I was like, nailed it. I should send you the what it says.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

So yeah, that's amazing because it's true. And I don't know, have you ever heard um have you heard Zach Bush speak? He's a doctor. Sounds familiar, but I don't think so. I'm gonna encourage you to to find a podcast. He's really amazing and he speaks, he speaks our language. So he is a medical doctor, but I I don't know that he's practicing, he doesn't practice in standard medical world. But um the reason he came to mind is he's also a Libra. And um, and when he talks a lot, he talks, he's he's very committed to beauty. Um, and so anyway, and back to the butterfly peep flower, which you can't really see how blue it is in my teapot, but I put it in my teapot because I love the blue color. And um, and it really does turn blue for folks who haven't worked with it before. It's and it doesn't take very many flowers for the whole pot to turn blue. And um, you know, I have it in a blend, so I don't know if it does anything by itself, but I feel like that blue color in my tea is very calming.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

I love that. When you said that earlier, before we were really on the show, I've I've recently been like re-engaging my Pinterest presence of all marketing kinds of things. And as I'm going through creating these pins, like my colors in my brand are green and blue, and they always have been because those are my two favorite colors. But as I I keep finding myself going back to the blue, and when I think of how my Pinterest is starting to look now that I've been giving it a little time and love, I'm like, I feel so peaceful and grounded looking at this. So I love that you brought that up about the blue.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:26

Yeah. Uh yeah. And I don't even know. I mean, I know art color therapy is absolutely real. Um, but and I haven't really read about it in a while. So I don't even know if blue is considered in art therapy like a calming color. But to me, it feels very calming when I have it in my tea. Maybe that depends on the age, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

Yeah, I I used to really look into the psychology of color, especially as like I was going through the process of building my Mountain Mells brand. Though when I was doing that, I didn't think of building a brand by any means. Right. But I did think about colors. When I was opening up my apothecary, what's going to make people feel like calm? And that's another piece. Like, I can't tell you how many times somebody would open up the doors to my apothecary. And right when they stepped their first one to two steps into the space, their shoulders drop back and they're just like, ah, I feel so nice in here. And I'm like, perfect. And that I feel like was a lot of factors. Yes, the colors, yes, the herbs, yes, the love and intention put into the place and energy and just a lot of things. But anyways, back to back to blue and butterfly pea.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Yeah. Well, cause I don't have a lot of like information about it to share.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

What's it taste like? I mean, I I know you said it's in a blend, so it's pretty mild.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Um it's pretty it's it's just kind of mild, just kind of like a mild green, like an herbie kind of tea, like green. I would say it doesn't taste blue. I don't know if I've ever been able I I feel like I could taste green. Yeah. I love taste blue, yeah. But I'll like You know, as I work with it a little bit more, I just um but again, like beauty matters, you know, and putting this little bit and and the fact that for some reason having blue tea just makes me feel good. Um, I don't dismiss any of that because you know, and I feel like sometimes I sound I might get a little more woo-woo every year, but I also work in the world of psychedelic mushrooms, and so I have am becoming part fungi, I think. And um I am a little woo-woo because I really believe energetic medicine is so powerful, so powerful.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

I feel like it's more and more clear every day, and I'm grateful that there's becoming more science behind it for those that doubt it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

Yes, because that's real. And so we're all we are, we're energy, right? We're nature and energy. And so if something makes you feel good, and and not in a way like if something makes you feel good, and it's like heroin, walk away. Let's find a different path. But if something makes you feel good, like, oh, this tea makes me feel good just because it's blue, or maybe you know, that particular fruit, I just love that fruit. I love dragon fruit. I don't know if you ever eat a dragon fruit, they're very expensive, so I hardly ever get them, but they're so beautiful. I love their like magenta color, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

So that color is just popping so loud and vibrant and beautiful.

Lemon Balm, Motherwort, Rose, And Tea

SPEAKER_00 1:08:37

And I think it's medicine for our soul sometimes to just eat that because it's beautiful. Drink this blue in my tea because it makes me feel good because it's so pretty, you know. It's that same feeling that we get when we sit with the tree and we just feel good because we're appreciating it, you know. And so it, you know, I guess what that is is kind of living in gratitude or or walking with gratitude when we're appreciating this beautiful thing and saying, Oh, I'm gonna choose you. I'm gonna choose you, you know, and what's beautiful to me is different than what's beautiful to you, or what's beautiful to the next person. And and again, this I love this about the world because we're all so unique, right? Absolutely, so unique. And we know because we love the earth and the environment, diversity is where it's at, people human-wise, animal-wise, trees, plants, foods, everything, you know, and so really everything that's healthy has diversity as a part of it. So, um, you know, I don't know. I I just feel like the energy of what makes us feel good is important and to pay attention to that and to follow that path. I mean, you know, I didn't get here by making the most practical choices in my life. I mean, some of them were practical. It's pretty practical to decide to go to nursing school.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:01

Maybe not when I had three kids born under, but whatever. That was practical for me because I was going insane. You know, when my kids born under, you know. So we did our little family split. So my husband could help and I went to school. But beyond that, I think um something I've learned about myself in the last decade, really, of since I've moved back to Oregon is that um when I follow the thing that's lighting me up, that's my path. And when I ignore what's lighting me up and I do what I'm quote unquote supposed to be doing, I suffer. I actually suffer, whether it whether it's physically, financially, or just emotionally. And I'm sorry, but when we suffer emotionally, it really takes a toll. Um, so so that's it's just I don't know. I I don't know if it's working with the mushrooms for the last 10 years or you know, I I think it's just my path, I guess, for the last 10 years. Making the move to Oregon was a huge life change. And my family blessed them so much, knew that it's what I needed. And I told my family, I said, I'm sorry, but I have to move to Oregon. I really want you guys to come with me. I mean, I was never gonna leave them, but that is how I presented it.

unknown 1:11:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Just to make them feel like they had a choice. Um, and they did, and it's and it's really transformed my life. I don't, you know, I do still have some seasonal affective disorder, but nothing like I had when I lived there. And I just, you know, I follow this path. I'm I actually kind of love a little bit that I'm a weirdo. I don't care anymore. And for a long time I cared, and it was hard, and I and I still suffer a little bit from um, I do not have the courage to be disliked as much as I would like to be able to sit with that. So that's something I'm still working on. Um, because I want to let my woo shine. And um, yeah, so anyhow, I don't know how we got sidetracked onto that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:11

It's always an ever-growing journey. And I there is so much wisdom in what you had to say about, you know, if it lights you up, that is the way to go. And if it puts that darker cloud, which isn't that's not the words that you use, but if it's not what feels great to you, it is damaging emotionally, physically in all of the ways. And I've traveled both of those paths multiple different times where I'm like, yes, this is it, and life is great. And then something in life will happen. And I'm like, this is not it, and this sucks. And somehow I'm allowing myself to stay there for a time. Yeah. And then the journey becomes like, wait a moment, I know I have more light to shine and my weirdoism to shine out in this world. So how do we get back on track to that, you know?

Beauty As Medicine: Butterfly Pea And Color

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

Yeah, yeah. And it can be really scary, right? Because the way that lights us up is not always, I mean, I the way that's lit me up many times in my life is not necessarily the most financially supportive way. And I've been really lucky that I can still follow the path, and that's where having a nursing license was really great because I could always still work as a nurse and follow what lit me up for a long time. And um, you know, when I made that change and actually retired that license, it was scary. And it took me years. It took me three years to actually retire the license. Um, and then you get one year where you can go back and get your license again without having to take the full national exam. And so I had that year, and I'll tell boy, the fear is up when I got close to that year of thinking, like, okay, Heather, you're you're really making your choice here. Um, but you know what was such the best choice for me. It was really the best choice for me. I don't ever want to, I I don't want to have to go back to that system ever. And I'm gonna take this moment, because I've been thinking a lot about this too, to just put a plug, actually. I I something that's been a big lesson to me in my life. Um and this going all the way back to the beginning of how did you get here? Well, I was a patient for the first 18 years of my life way more times than I should have been a patient, and it made me very, very sick. I was very, very sick by the time I was 20 years old. Then I then I met my midwife and naturopath, and it totally transformed my path. Then I became a nurse. But I became a nurse because I was so far on that side of medicine's horrible, I'm never gonna do this. I'm a home birth mom, you know, and I still spent even when I was a nurse raising my kids, you know, I nursed my babies, I had my babies at home. We use all herbal medicine. But I had one son almost die from a bee sting, and I had another son need open heart surgery when he was two. And I had to surrender my child to the medical system so they could stop his heart and operate on it. It was probably one of my most traumatizing experiences as a parent. Um, he's great, he came through it all. We had to go back one more time after that. But that experience is what actually led me to become a nurse because I saw that it was the nurses who take care of the patients, not the doctors. Um, and so then I was in nursing a long time, still using herbs at home, and I was an emergency room nurse, so I kind of dealt with the big stuff. I feel like I was dealing with the best part of medicine, that's where medicine shines, you know. We're good at it, we're really good at it. You save lives. I got to save lives. Yeah. I I it was it's been a great career. So then I stopped that, and then COVID happened, and I really flew far in the other direction again. Like medicine is horrible. I don't know what we're doing here. Um, you know, and I'll just be frank, I do not, I didn't align with the way that we handled COVID in our country or probably anywhere in the world, but um, I don't know why we didn't talk about vitamin C and vitamin D and food and herbs. I mean, it was such an opportunity for us to help humanity learn how to care for ourselves, and we just totally blew it. So I was really angry at medicine again during COVID and um like never gonna do it. And then I had to have surgery this year. It was my first time having surgery, and um, I was terrified and I had to do a lot of personal work to even get there and make myself go and stay present and not dissociate. That was a really important part of my journey because I could have gone in there and like left my body and not been present for the actual experience. But I was really present and I came out of it recognizing the people in medicine are great. Really, the doctors they care, the nurses care, the people who work at the hospital, they're all burnt out. We need to be really nice to them because they're all burnt out and they all keep showing up for people. It's not the people, and so it's not all of medicine, you know. And I had surgery and they told me I'm cured. I didn't even know that was a word we could use in medicine, actually, because it's very rare to be cured from something in medicine, but I'm cured is what I'm told. I believe it. Um, and so it's helped me kind of swing my pendulum back, and this is this lesson I keep getting in my life because I'm I'm to go so hard in what direction or the other swung my pendulum back to recognizing okay, medicine's here out of a need. It became for a reason, and and every bit is valid. Medicine is that you know, allopathic medicine is valid, herbal medicine is valid, energetic medicine is valid, acupuncture. I mean, there's so many different ways. So um I don't even know how I got on that spell either here, Mel. But um, I just Yeah, I mean it's all it's all valid. Go ahead. Well, I think it's important to um to put it out there, and because I know, and probably in your amongst your listeners, there's people we all have all different backgrounds, right? And you know, sometimes we do need standard medicine. I think most of the time we can take care of ourselves and our families with plants, plants and food and water. Drink good clean water. I mean, more people need to drink water if that's the one thing that you want to do to improve your health, drink more water. Um so so I just I just had to do that because I don't um I feel sometimes I like to I don't want to be pushing anyone out because I feel like if you go to the doctor and you take a pharmaceutical, you can still use herbs.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:09

And as herbalists, I think it's important for us to respect that everyone is gonna have their own path of what's right for them. And it's okay for people to use medications if that's what works for them too, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:21

100%. Yeah. And and I think that's a conversation that's coming up more and more. What I'm seeing a lot of is a lot of nurses wanting to run from the Western medical system, but they didn't get into it for the system. They got into it because they genuinely care and want to help people. And then they see the system and they're like, whoa, that's corrupt and icky. You know, I don't want to be a part of that. But the truth is, like you being an emergency medicine, like that is life-saving medicine. If it were not for Western medicine, I would not be here today. And I feel like our job as herbalists is to be able to allow and help people to integrate both together. Yes, we can do the vast majority of everything to do with healthy living and preventative maintenance with plant medicine and food and lifestyle and exercise and all of those things. But there does come a time when hot damn, the science of Western medicine is brilliant and can save lives. It's the corruption and the misuse and abuse and misunderstanding of the system that is straight whack a chisel. Yes, right. That's what makes everybody want to run. But there is a time and a place. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. So um, this has been amazing. I always love when I get to connect with you. I am super thrilled to have you come in and work with the community herbalist students and do your class on practitioner skills. And so anybody listening, and if you're in that program, you now know why I am having Heather come in and share her decades of experience as a practitioner working with people from birth to death, from herbs to Western medicine to psilocybin and psychedelic medicine and trauma therapy. And there is so much depth and wisdom that comes through in your voice. And I'm I'm beyond honored to have you as a guest teacher in that program again. And for those of you that love what you hear from Heather, there's so many ways that you can work with her. I know she has her herbal apprenticeship coming up, which you do that in person and online.

Bridging Herbal And Conventional Care

SPEAKER_00 1:21:48

Is it kind of hybrid or? Well, this year we're gonna do a little different. I have done online and in person, um, like two separate programs. And so this year um it's gonna be over 10 months, but six in-person sessions here at Orbsong Farm. And then we'll have a couple of online kind of touch-ins and orientations and other opportunities to work together. Um, you know, because it's tricky to support everybody. I know you have an awesome online program, which thank you for doing that and offering that out to the world because I just know it's a lot of work, the online part, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:25

It sure is a lot of work on the back end. But you know, I I think the in-person piece is really, really important too. Like that's yes, I love that part.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:34

And you know, what I have found in the online part is that I I want to bring everyone into my gardens.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:40

You know, and the plants and learn from the plants and touch them and smell them and feel them and taste them and love them.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:49

And I love that part of the apprenticeship because you know, people then they get to come and watch, you know, could they come once a month and see what's changed in the garden, you know, and so much has changed in the garden. And I love sharing my gardens. And so um, that feels really sweet. Yeah, so that's gonna be starting. I think we're starting on spring, March 21st. So we're gonna be in first class this this year. Um, and I am gonna be offering a free webinar coming up in February on nervous systems, herbs for the nervous system. So this is what we just talked about. Um, we're gonna be doing that webinar again because it's just so so needed right now. I feel like we all could use a little support view if one herb, which we didn't even talk about that many herbs. So let me just throw out one more herb. Oh, please end our show because I think that most people either have this herb already in your cupboard or you have this with your grandmother. I know that it's an herb that is in all long-term care facilities and hospitals. So it's one of my favorite nervines, which is chamomile. Right? And it tastes good, it's easy to find. Kids love it, grown-ups love it. It helps with nervous tummies, it helps with tension everywhere in your body, it helps people sleep if they're taught if they're having sufferings from some insomnia. So it's just such a gentle, lovely, easy-to-use herb that you can find everywhere. Um, so we'll talk about chamomile in that webinar as well as some others, but um, yeah, so that's coming up too. And so far, that's all I have planned. Um I love that. Yeah, I'm hoping to plan some more options. I know um I have an assistant named Megan. She's we've been besties since we were teenagers, and um, we have been really wanting to do a little flower class series. So where we use all the flowers in the garden to make good stuff. So I'm hoping we're hoping to get that on the calendar for the summer when the once the flowers really start to take off.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:52

Oh, that sounds so exciting! What a fun, immersive, beautiful, blissful experience. I wish I were closer to you. Like I'm not very far from you, but this time.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:05

I've been really wanting to also do like a rose dieta where the whole experience is all about rose, and you take rose in all those different forms, right? So we might eat some rose and we'll do some rose glycerin and we'll use some flower essence. So the whole day is rose. So that you know, with the idea of a dieta is really that um, really you you take in so much of the plant that you you feel it, you feel it, you learn from it, you kind of become a little bit of a rose for a moment. So you can really deeply understand the medicine.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:40

Um I love that you said that because as you were speaking before you said the feel-it piece, I was going to say, you know what I've really loved about this conversation is each time you brought up an herb, whether it's lemon balm, whether it's mother's mother wart or chamomile or rose, each time you state the name of that plant, uh, I just felt so blessed because uh you can say the word and I can feel it in my body. And I think that is the one of the greatest gifts of being on this herbal journey for so long and sitting with those plants and getting to know them and letting them teach you. And it's it's so beautiful that I was just feeling that for myself throughout our conversation. And then I really think of this specifically for chamomile and my daughter. And I've said this a few times on this podcast, I'm sure. So if you're like this devout listener, you might have heard this story. But um, chamomile is like this herb that my daughter has a deep connection to. And when she was young, I was running my herbal tea company and I was very about the beauty. So I would always have loose leaf, gorgeous teas. And my hope was that people would sit with their cup of tea and make this connection, like, oh my gosh, that's linden leaf right there. I can see the shape of it, and this is how it's feeling in my body, and you know, develop this deep love for that herb. And and Anira would always walk up and pick the chamomile flowers out of my tea and just eat them, like as a toddler, like when she first started walking. And later in life, she was uh a child who was prone to anxiety. And each time she would have like an anxiety type of attack, or just in that moment, she would also say, always say, Mommy, my tummy hurts. Like, well, that makes great sense because the the gut and the nervous system are so the same and intertwined, right? So I knew that, right? And I would always say, Oh, well, I'll make you a cup of tea. And I would go grab chamomel tea and I would make the tea and she might take a sip or two. And then it got to a point where I would make the tea and she never took a sip of the tea, but she would feel better. And then I'm like, I'm recognizing this. And then I as I continued to recognize that, I would say, Oh, I'll make you a cup of tea. And I'd maybe just start the hot water because I didn't want to waste the herb, knowing she wasn't gonna drink it. And she would feel calm. And then it got to a point where I could just say, I'm gonna make you a cup of tea. And she knew Kamama was coming for her and she would become calm. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah, like what a deep relationship she has grown.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:28

Yeah. Well, and how that plant has helped to teach her to regulate her nervous system, right? Because she's doing that. She's doing that because she knows, oh, that's how that makes me feel. And so, and and it's you know, I back to psilocybin for a second. It's like once we felt those feelings, we know it's real, like you know it's possible. If you've not, if you've felt depressed for 20 years and you come in, and with the psilocybin, you have a couple hours of just feeling deeply connected and full of joy, um, recognizing the beauty. You might go home and maybe a couple of months down the line. You're gonna wake up and feel down in the dumps again because we're humans, we expand and contract all the time. But you know it's possible, you have felt that feeling, you've actually physically experienced the feeling, and so now we know it's real. I can feel that, right? So, so it's that like we we learn, it's part of the ways that we teach ourselves, and so your daughter, see, she just did that because our little humans they don't have as many blocks as us grown-ups do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:40

I was just having that conversation with her recently, too. She's she's 12, and she's always been a very deeply intuitive being, but I think all of all the children are, right? We just are taught to suppress it. And I was just having a very almost stern conversation with her. Like, you are deeply intuitive. Follow that, go with that. She's like, What does that mean though? I'm like, when you get that feeling in your tummy, when you just get that little feeling in the back of your mind, that's like, no, or yes. Yes, that's your gut, that's your intuition speaking to you, and yours is very strong. And I want to continue to empower you to be in touch with that throughout life and damn the rest of the world that tries you to tries to crush it for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:31

Yeah, and really amazing that you're that you're talking about that now before she be, I mean, as she moves into the world of being a teenager because it's difficult. And I and it is, I mean, I have memories of being a teenager and I know that I could feel if this was something I was supposed to be doing or not doing, or was this right for me or not? I mean, I knew that. And so she and and I think so many kids do, but they don't know to listen to it. So how great that you're already really talking about that. So when she's in a situation, she'll be able to say, okay, that's not a yes. I should probably call my mom. Yeah, absolutely. I hope she listens. She's got a great mama who she knows she can call. And I think that's, I mean, I've raised three teenagers now. Yeah. And many others who didn't were not born out of my body. Um, and you know, it's hard. There's um, I won't sugarcoat it, but I will say that knowing that they that you are the safe person they can call makes all the difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:38

And so, and and you are, and that's what I'm trying to be. But it's so funny that we're just as we're ending this show this morning, the conversation in my small team chat was for the from me. And by the way, who has some wisdom on how to deal with our tweens and their like crazy hormones and emotions along with mine? It's uh yeah, that was part of my grumpiness to this morning that I woke up with resonant from last night and feeling feelings when you're hurt by your teens' behavior, yes, and how to express that to them in a way that lets them know that you also have feelings and and and that it's okay for them to see that and recognize that and also to not treat you in such a way.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:27

Totally. Like you can have your big hard feelings, but that doesn't mean they should come out on me. Yeah. And I'll just give you the little prep that um she will break your heart like no other, because they know, and I think the daughters in particular, like I mean, I I still can't get over some of the times where my daughter would just look at me and say something that crushed me. And and she had no idea it was even crushed. Like to her, she was just like inner world and whatever. But to me, I was internally just like crushed. Can't believe she would say that to me, you know. Um, so I had those moments. We've worked, she's an incredibly beautiful adult woman now, and we are so tight and we talk about all kinds of things and share a lot. Um, so so just know you've got this. Get through it, yeah. You definitely want to have your nervines on board. Lots and lots of nervines, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:29

Mother Ward feels your weekend away now.

Chamomile, Kids, And Nervous Tummies

SPEAKER_02 1:33:32

Yeah, that's so funny. That's what I said to Chris as I was venting via text this morning. I'm like, oh, sorry, you know, after I got done venting, I'm like, sorry for venting in those ways. And maybe I just need a six-year vacation now. You know, like that's that's all I need. Um, but yeah, and it also takes me uh back to my mother and and hearing you say that about your daughter. Bless my sweet mom and the crap she dealt with with me. Um wow. But she always did say, You're gonna get through this and you're gonna become an amazing human, and I'm still gonna love you, even if you're a jerk right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:11

Well, I think that it's difficult to raise strong women. And I definitely have one of those. So yes, and we want that. So you know, we kind of make our own bed a little bit. Totally, 100%. The best of humanity.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:24

So there's so many times in her childhood where I've watched Chris and her butt heads, and he gets mad that she's opinionated and strong. And I'm like, no, that's exactly what we want for her. And now I'm seeing the roles kind of shift. Like she's always been very, very mama oriented. And now that's kind of starting to shift slowly but too fast for me. And she's a little more like, well, let me hang with dad because dad's the fun guy. And I let you get away, he'll let me get away with a little bit more. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, we both have our you can get away with this over here, and you can get away with this. I mean, like all parents do that, but anyways, without going on too deep of a parental tween parental journey here.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:11

Um, I think so many of us are on it, you know. It's important to talk about and just know that it's, you know, you're gonna be hard pressed to find another parent of a tween or a teenager who isn't having a little bit of a struggle, you know. So I think it's important to know it's real and it happens to everyone because when we're in it, it's like, oh my god, is my teenager the only nightmare? We can't be the only nightmarer in town.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:36

Yeah. Yeah. So, anyways, what a journey. What a journey this life is, right? So beautiful. Heather, I love you and I love every time I get to share with you, even if it is only online. And I am very much looking forward to you coming in and sharing your wisdom with the students in the community herbalist program. I know that you have so much insight to share with them on just that art of the intake and the art of listening and drawing out a story and all that goes into holding space for somebody on their own unique healing journey. So I'm very excited for that. I am very excited for anybody who is blessed enough to spend time in the presence of your apprenticeship in your garden, and anybody that is able to go to your webinar on nervous system herbs, I know they will love that too. So thank you so much for all the work you do in this world and being for the beautiful, beauty-loving weirdo that you are. Thank you for recognizing my weirdness and appreciating it. And I gotta embrace my weirdness all the time. It's another thing I teach my child.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:51

Embrace your weirdness. It's okay. Yeah. The world, I mean, that's what we need. That's what I want to know everyone's weirdness, you know. Yeah, that's where all the good stuff is. So absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

Oh, one more thing. How do people get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:05

Oh, well, I have a website. Um, it's herbsongfarm.com. It's not a super fancy website because I'm better with people than tech. I'd just like everyone to know that off the bat, but that's where you can find me for facilitation work. Um, you can find me at epichealing.com. Also, my website will take you there. Um, I am on Instagram, Herbsong Farm. And I do have my walks with Winnie, which I love to do. And those may actually be transitioning to a YouTube channel soon. Um but I need a young person to help me figure out how to do it. Yeah, that tech stuff, eh? But Winnie is very special. And if you haven't, if if your listeners haven't seen a walk with Winnie, I encourage you to check one out. Um, because she's a cute pooch, and we talk about whatever, whatever's coming up that day.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:55

So I love it. Thank you so much, Heather. Have a beautiful day.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:00

You too. Bye, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:08

Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the Herbalist Path. If you're loving this journey into herbal medicine, please follow and review the show. It helps more people find their own path with the plants. And if you know someone who could use this kind of support, please share this episode with them. So that way we can keep making herbalism spread like wildflowers. Also, a gentle reminder nothing shared on this podcast is intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease. This is all for educational purposes, and yeah, a little entertainment too. But it is not a substitute for personalized care from a qualified health practitioner. Always do your own research, listen to your body, and when needed, partner with a trusted professional who honors both your intuition and your unique health journey. Until next time, take care, stay curious, and keep walking the herbalist path.