Herbalism for Resilience: Ethical Wildcrafting and Connection with Elaine Sheff

What if the way we’re learning herbalism is actually harming the plants we depend on?

In this episode, I sit down with herbalist Elaine Shefff from Green Path Herb School to explore ethical wildcrafting, plant stewardship, and what it really means to be in relationship with the land. As herbalism becomes more popular, it is more important than ever to slow down, observe, and rethink how we harvest and work with plants.

If you want to harvest herbs in a way that protects ecosystems and supports future generations, this episode is for you.

In this episode:

• Why ethical wildcrafting matters now more than ever
• How overharvesting is impacting medicinal plants
• What sustainable foraging really looks like
• Why starting with weeds can change everything
• How to build a relationship with plants over time
• Bioregional herbalism and working with local medicine
• Herbalism as a path back to connection and belonging
• Simple ways to support your community with herbal medicine

For full show notes, resources, and links visit: 
theherbalistspath.com/blog/ethical-resilient-herbalism-elaine-sheff

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And we'll talk about why we need more skilled herbalists now more than ever.

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Transcript

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Welcome And Show Mission

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Welcome to the Herbalist Path. If you love learning about the power of plant medicine and how to use it in your life, this show is for you. I'm Mel Mutterspot, Clinical Herbalist, Herbal Educator, and your host. In each episode, you're going to hear me sharing herbal insights and knowledge from my 25 plus years of working with and learning from the plants. Plus, I'm going to share interviews with some of the most amazing herbalists, educators, farmers, and healers out there, all bringing their herbal wisdom here for you. Really, this show is all about continuing this movement to put an herbalist in every home and a healer in every community. Again. Thank you so much for listening and welcome to the Herbalist Path. Enjoy the show. Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode here on the Herbalist Path. I know that we are all in for a great treat today. I'm bringing back my guest, Elaine Sheff from Greenpath Herb School in Missoula, Montana. And every time I have the pleasure of chatting with Elaine, of taking a class with Elaine, or just any type of connection I get with her, I always feel better. She just has this kind, calming, magnetic presence filled with wisdom. So why wouldn't I have her back on the show, right? So Elaine, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I think that the topics we are going to flow into are so incredibly important today. And I couldn't imagine a better person to chat about with it than you. So welcome.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Oh, thanks, Mel. Thanks for such a kind introduction, too. That's very sweet of you. I only speak from the heart.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

So there we go. Um, and on that introduction piece, I'm I'm sure there's quite a few listeners who maybe haven't heard your past podcast or had the pleasure of learning from you. So if you want to share a little bit more about you and all that you do, now's your time.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

All right. Well, I'll make it brief because I know we have a lot to talk about. But um, so I uh have been an herbalist pretty much my entire adult life. I um went to college, got a degree in environmental conservation, and while I was in college,

Meet Elaine Sheff Again

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I was like um fell in love with herbs and herbal medicine. I had already been doing that and working with that and studying. Um, but I decided I really wanted to do it as a vocation. And I call it a vocation rather than a job because I feel like it's most of us who are herbalists, like we do it because it's way more than just for the, it's not for the money. It's it's way more, it's for like the love of what we do. And so it is my vocation, just as I'm sure it's yours, Mel. And um, so I started out, I went to the Rocky Mountain Center for Botanical Studies, and then I went to the Southwest School of Botanical Medicine. And then um, my partner at the time, who's now my husband and also an herbalist, um, we moved to Missoula, Montana. We opened an herb store and we owned that store for 18 years and manufactured products and sold wholesale and retail and taught a lot of classes and saw a lot of clients and all that good stuff. And then um after 18 years, we sold the store and now we're upstairs from that store. And for the last 15 years, we have been um running Green Path Herb School. So we teach full-time now, and um, I also still see clients and I write a lot. I um have written several books and I'm actually working on a new one, um, which I'm sure we'll have a conversation about at some point later. Um yeah, and um yeah, have two kids, two boys who are now young adults, and two dogs and a cat, and um a little house here in Missoula, which we just absolutely love, big herb gardens and lots of hiking and wandering around in the woods and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

So I love it. I love how you and I both seem to have gotten into the world of herbalism with our deep passion and love for the planet. And, you know, with that comes love for people. And I think our topic today, Elaine was really great and shared an excellent article that's on her website, greenpatherbschool.com, by the way. And it's all about herbalism for social and environmental resiliency, uh, is the title of her blog. And that's pretty much what we're going to talk about today, with our deep experience and knowledge and passion combined together. So I'm really, really excited about that, especially as this world of herbalism continues to grow in exponential ways. I think it's unbelievably important. And when I got into the world of herbalism, I had been studying environmental and experiential education. I became a backpacking guide. I was just really passionate about connecting more people to nature and to the power of nature because it had been the most amazing, awe-inspiring, healing thing I had ever done throughout my entire life as well. And as I was doing that, I started noticing more of these plants. And I'm like, oh, wait, these plants can help heal people, right? And so I've always had this belief that the more people we can connect to the world of herbal medicine, the more inspired they are going to be to want to take care of our precious planet. And I I know you feel this way as well. And I want to open up this conversation in this realm

Herbalism Tied To Earth Care

SPEAKER_01 8:26

and connecting that to what we are seeing today, because I think, yes, that that is true. More and more people are like, oh, wait, this this earth and how we treat it matters. And there's also this whole other entity that's like, oh, wait, people want herbs, and I can make buttloads of money off of that, and I don't give a damn about the planet. And like, how do we how do we, as herbalists who have been in this field for quite some time, help to inspire more people to want to truly care for the land as they're using herbs to care for themselves?

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, that's a great question. And I I do I agree with you. Like there are people who sell herbal products or who are involved in herbalism who maybe don't connect that to care for the land. And I think most herbalists do connect that. And most herbalists have a actually a massive passion for the earth and the land and the plants and how we um can be respectful, right? And stewards of the land. And so um I agree. Like I and I also think there are a whole group of people that kind of think they're doing that or maybe want to be doing that, but maybe they don't know how, or maybe they're not quite there, you know. So um, and I see that a lot with foraging, honestly, a lot with foraging here in Montana. Um, I'll, you know, get on like Facebook foraging groups, and I'm just like, oh my goodness, like I've really, um, it really can be um super sad to me to see kind of you know people taking everything from an area or whatever. And you know, part of what what I think about is like we are one part of the web of life. We cannot survive by ourselves. Plants are our original ancestors, if you will. Like we would not be here without plants. We wouldn't even have oxygen, right? They were here long, long, like millions of years before humans were, or even animals, right? So um, so just even that perspective that we couldn't be here without them, you know, they provide food and medicine and oxygen and ecosystems, literally like ecosystems wouldn't be here without plants. And so um there's no way life would exist without them. And and so I feel like from that perspective, we can kind of understand the importance, goes way beyond how we can use them or what we get from them, you know, way beyond that. And to think about it kind of as a web of life, right? That that there are many parts and we're just one little part to that, you know. We need that web way more than it needs us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah, I love that. I I you're so right. And what a great way to paint that picture for those that are out there listening to this right now. And I want to talk a little bit about first, let's break down what we're seeing on social media in the wildcrafting world. And we'll just, you know, state what we're seeing because I'm seeing the same thing, and it also hurts my heart as well. And then we'll transfer into like, what does it mean to be a steward of the land and to truly care? And how can people maybe, you know, maybe somebody identifies themselves out there, like, oh my gosh, I I went out and took this whole stand of plants, you know, and maybe they can shift the way they do wildcrafting in the future.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah. And we only know what we know, right? Like I have regrets around what I've, you know, how I've harvested plants in the past, absolutely, to be totally honest. Yeah. Um, there are things that I would never do now that I have done in the past. And um, that doesn't feel good to me, you know, and yet it's important to learn from our mistakes. And so that's something that I would really encourage. Like if you, you know, if you're hearing conversation or you're learning about ethical wildcrafting or reciprocity or whatever, and you're like, oh man, I I didn't do, I didn't do that. I did that thing, you know, and like, yeah, and now there's an opportunity to not do that. Or like my favorite thing is like um the empowerment around like doing something about it, right? That we each have an opportunity to be socially and environmentally responsible and um to to have our actions

Social Media Foraging Gone Wrong

SPEAKER_00 13:16

count towards a positive world in so many ways, you know. And so there's there's great, like there's endless opportunity to do those types of things. And I know we can talk a little bit about some of the ways that I think herbalists are um have opportunities to do that, and even people who aren't herbalists but are just like interested in the natural world or go out walking or hiking or, you know, whatever it is. So um lots of opportunities there for empowerment and betterment and adding to life and the the web of life on.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah. So so you just since you just said that, I was like, oh, well, let's talk about some wildcrafting ethics, but let's talk about the empowerment of the web of life and as herbalists or just nature lovers in general, what things can we do? What kind of opportunities are out there for us to make a shift for the betterment of people on the planet?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah, yeah. And and that's kind of one of the reasons I wrote the article, is that I feel like um, you know, so many of the things that we're seeing right now kind of break my heart. And I think people can feel very disempowered. And so, how can we um do things that are hopeful and that matter, even if they just matter a little bit, even if they just mattered in our local yard or environment or neighborhood or community, you know, and there's there's just so many options. Um, and so that was one of the reasons I wrote the article because I was just thinking about all these ways, like, how can I contribute? How can I make a difference? And then I was like, boy, like every herbalist could do this. And I just I narrowed it to herbalism because I felt like there's so much conversation around the bigger picture, like what people can do in general. So I thought, why not like what herbalists can do specifically? Right. And so um, the first thing, and this goes, you know, right along with what we were just talking about is being stewards of the land, right? And how do we do that? And um, and there's so many great ways to do that. Like one of the things that I do when I go out on a on a hike or a walk is I will always like look for trash or you know, pick up things that shouldn't be there or something, you know, like the other um last summer I was hiking and there was this beautiful rose, rose, wild rose, right, that was growing right by the trail. And someone must have like gotten scratched by it or something. And they had put this big piece of wood like on the rose bush, I think to probably keep it off the trail or whatever. But I was like, I mean, I could almost like feel that rose like being like, help. I'm I'm hurting, you know. And I just like I walked, I was talking to a friend, we were hiking together, and I walked by and I was like, wait a second, I gotta do something. Just give me a minute. And then I walked back and like took the log off the rose and was just like kind of in my heart, like apologized, like, I'm sorry for that. We don't always humans don't always understand, like or think. And I'm sorry, I apologize for our actions around that. You know, I often feel embarrassed by human actions towards plants and how we treat them. And I and they're sentient. I truly I I know that plants have um sentience, they have um a life, every single plant has a life of its own that is precious and important to it, right? Just like our lives are precious and important to us. And so um, to have that in mind, I think as we go, I can be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah, I love how you mentioned there, like you could feel the roses feelings. And before we hit record, uh Elaine and I were talking about other podcasts that are fascinating, and one of them that we had both like she was saying about to come up with the words for. And I was like, she's gonna say telepathy tapes. And she surely did. And and in one of the episodes, I I just got turned on to it. So um I did listen to one about plants and and how they speak and how we as humans can feel. And, you know, right now I look at the sticker on the bottom of my computer screen or the top of the keyboard, and it says, if you listen, they will teach you. And it's so true. And I think maybe that there's not enough people out there opening up and really speaking about how these plants are live, living beings, and you can develop a real connection with them. And and maybe that sounds woo-woo is all get out, but it is real. And I think the only reason it sounds woo-woo is because there's the scientists can't prove it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, and we've I feel like we've lost touch with, you know, that. But if we look towards indigenous cultures, they're like, yeah, ugh, don't right? Like worse. You're leading. And yeah, and so I feel like, you know, we have forgotten, is how I feel, you know. And so part of what herbalism can offer is like helping us remember like our true connection to the web of life and the and the natural world. And I personally feel like that's one of the reasons that humans have this, what I call like an empty hole, like a like a longing for something that we can't quite name, you know, and that can lead

Plant Sentience And Forgotten Connection

SPEAKER_00 19:58

to depression or feelings of hopelessness or feelings of disconnection and and deep loneliness, right? And I I personally feel like the reason that we feel that way is because we have forgotten our connection to the the more than human world, right? That is so much greater and always there and deeply present. And we are part of that, and yet we've isolated ourselves in our minds and you know, in our homes and all of that from the natural world. And so that's one way that I feel like herbalism is like a bridge. Like I literally see myself, uh, one of my jobs is to be a bridge for humans to get back to the natural world. And then if I can like working with clients one-on-one, if they have an experience with a plant that is healing to them, wow, that opens up that possibility of that reconnection, just ingesting an herb, just smelling an herb, just like being near a plant, I feel like all of those have that opportunity to of reconnection, to start that spark of reconnection. And then if we think about teaching about herbal medicine or or you know, having students working with people, writing books, podcasts, um, blogs, whatever it is, where people can start reading about that and going, uh, that feels right. That feels like I'm I'm I'm drawn to that, right? That it helps us feel whole, like, like, um, because we do belong to that. You know, we are part of that. And we've just lost our our way. We've lost our the realization. It's not that we aren't connected, we've just forgotten that we are, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Hearing you speak about this is making my heart and entire body so happy and alive with chills because you're so right. Like the the connection we have, the web we are all so deeply connected to is the world wide web. And while there's some blessings to that, it really has made us so much more disconnected to real life. Real life that we know for a fact will always be there for us doing its thing, whether we'll be here or not is a whole nother thing. But it will be here. And, you know, nature isn't just gonna suddenly crash tomorrow and everybody's offline and can't, you know, go touch a plant, right? Um, so that is that is so important and and so beautiful. And it really takes me back to the root of how I got into this work myself, that like deep desire to can connect more people to nature. And what a fabulous role to have in the world of herbal medicine.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Like I agree. I mean, it feels I feel so not only do I love like I would never want to do anything else, I absolutely love my work. And I really don't call it work, I call it more of like a vocation, but yeah, I feel so honored, you know, to do the work I do, like so grateful and so honored. And I just, yeah. I mean, and I know there's lots of people that do different work and they love that work and they they feel like it's a calling or, you know, something that really deeply matters to them. There's I'm not saying herbalism's the only way to do that, but I'm just for me, it's feels like it is my way, you know. And I right, it just feels deeply rewarding. And um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Yeah, absolutely. It is, and it it makes sense that you're speaking about it from herbalist perspective. I mean, you are a lifelong herbalist, at least adult lifelong, you know. Probably you were already there as a young'un, but maybe weren't quite as aware. That's kind of what I I think about on my journey and my path. Like, wait a second, I say that I started this in the late 90s, but what about all those cool mud pies with the plants I was making when I was seven? You know, and I just didn't know because my family wasn't into it, you know. They um they were part of that generation that, you know, it was basically washed upon us to erase that connection. Yeah. So that we would become dependent on other systems that are not as strong, robust, and eternal as as nature and that that web. So that is really beautiful. Okay. So maybe somebody's listening to this and they're like, that's really cool and all, but like, what do you really mean? How can I deepen my connection with a plant? Because you talked about how, you know, tasting them or or um smelling them, like I'm at a point where I have certain plants, I can think of their name and I can feel the effects of that plant in my body, like flow through my body in the most beautiful ways. That's freaking epic, right? Like, what a cool gift. But maybe somebody's not there yet, right? Um, how can they foster that connection? What can they do?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

I mean, I think about well, there's lots of different ways to do that. One of the ways that I love to do that is. Is to grow plants to garden. And so to me, that um, well, there's there's two. So one is going out in nature and like visiting. So I consider myself, like if I'm hiking or whatever, I consider myself like a visitor. Um, not that I don't belong to the natural world, but to that little portion, I'm I'm a visitor, and I will go and visit the plants in in their homes, is what I what I say. And so I'll I love to like go and see like, oh, who lives new near who and which kinds of insects like who and and which birds. And so I'm just like um deeply watching um the the world. And I'll go to the same trails around this area, like uh through all seasons. And so I'm I'm no like, oh, this is when the balsam root comes up, and with the balsam root comes the um, you know, these bluebirds are coming back to um the the fields then. And right after the balsam comes the um larkspur, you know, and like so I I have this feeling of like um a deep connection that I have just developed over time with the land near where I live. And that connection is like love and reverence. I mean, it feels like I adore the land that I live on. Um and I would do a lot to protect it, you know. So that feels like the more we know something and love it, the more we're invested. Right. Um, so there's that natural part. And then there's the gardening part for me, which is all about like getting to know. So that's where I harvest most of my plants, is from my own

Gardening As Relationship Building

SPEAKER_00 27:10

garden. And I feel really good about that because I I do wildcraft, but I'm very selective and very thoughtful about, you know, very abundant plants or weedy plants is mostly what I'm wildcrafting. Um, but my gardens, I grow, you know, what I can and uh quite a bit. And um, I love, you know, I was, I just did this um winter plant ID class for my herbalist certificate program. And I was talking about um knowing, like from a seedling, literally the cotyledon, the first two leaves that come out that are like the seed leaves, right? Before the real leaves come out. At this point, I can go into my garden and look at cotyledon leaves and be like, there's sunflower, or there's motherwart, or there's catnip, or you know, whatever. And so um, I've been doing it for so long that I feel like I, and it wasn't something I just trained myself to do. I just literally watched over and over, season after season, right? And getting to know those plants in that way from like a seedling all the way to like when I would harvest or they would, you know, um be years old and and if if they're perennial, right? Um that has been an amazing way also and to see and uh yeah, just um to get to know them. And I I think of them, and you probably do too, Mel, but like a lot like friends, right? They are um, they each have their own personalities, if you will, and they're the the types of uh if we're thinking about gardening, like the types of places they like I'll watch them move around the garden, like their seeds will go to different places or they're or they'll come up in different locations, right? With through their roots. And um, I love to just watch, like, oh, you like it more over there in the sunnier part or you know, whatever it is. And and so it's like um, yeah, just getting to know them better in that way that has been really amazing. Um, and I think about that, like especially that kind of um going out and like visiting the locals, if you will, it's really bioregional herbalism, right? Which I'm a huge fan of, like this idea that we really get to know the medicinal plants that grow around our area. And I like the weedy plants just as much as I like the native medicinals. Um, weeds have their own, like I could even, you know, I could go on about weeds because they're medicinal weeds, because they're I'm like so um in awe of them. They're so resilient and so they have such life force, you know, and and what they do for as pioneers for the soil and that kind of thing is just really beautiful. Um, but like having that bioregional herbalism, not only is it so important for like not transporting medicinal plants around the world, right? And we can get, and and I I'm not um talking bad about like Chinese medicine or Ayurvedic medicine or any of those medicines far away. Like I am deeply um, those are beautiful and um have such deep roots. Like I have a lot of respect. Um, and I am much more interested in the plants that grow where I grow because I feel like there is um I can have a deeper relationship with them and deeper connection to them. And I know kind of like I can go out in the wild and be like, you know, there's not that much of this plant around here. It's probably not a good idea to harvest it. Whereas if if I'm getting an herb from China, no idea. I mean, I can research it, but I can't go out and look and say, Yeah, there's really not much of this plant.

Bioregional Herbalism And Local Trust

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I don't think we should be using it, you know. Or, or this has been a hard season. There's a been a lot of drought or a lot, way too much water or like bad conditions for that plant, that species. So I'm gonna leave it be this year, you know, it's not the right time to gather it. So those are the things that I feel like I trust, like locally, I can look and see and be and feel very good about my decisions around how to interact with those medicinal plants because I I am where they live, you know?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah, that's I have so much to say on everything you just said, like from the connection to bioregional herbalism to watching your little plant friends popping up in the garden and them really being friends and having connection to the land. Like you spoke about visiting certain trails all the time throughout the year and being able to observe the life cycles of the plants out in their native habitat, usually native, sometimes not. Um, and it really brought me to something that has specifically happened for me because I also have a few trails that I visit five to seven times a week. And it's so much fun for me to be like, oh yay, the organ grape flowers are coming up, or you know, whatever is happening. And I have a trail in my backyard on this beautiful mountain river I'm so grateful to be on. And there has been this certain section where there's some organ grape and a bunch of blackberries that are right on the side of the river. This beautiful little stand of organ grape that I have visited almost daily for the last almost seven years. And last month we had some pretty heavy flooding on the river, and it took away like a good 25-foot chunk of land in this area, many trees as well, and this Oregon grape stand. And I can go back in my phone camera roll and see like different times of year where I'm taking videos and pictures of this beautiful Oregon grape at different phases of its life, and it came up in one of my uh Facebook memories the other day. And I was like, my friend is gone. I know that's a pattern of nature, but that's also that like real true friend connection that I think is so important. And that importance, I think, of what you just spoke about also in the bioregional herbalism piece and being a true steward of the land is having that ability, not only the ability, the discernment, the compassion, the respect to come to an area where there is a plant that you're like, hey, I know that's a really great medicinal plant. And I can see that now is not the time to harvest

Grief For Lost Plant Places

SPEAKER_01 33:58

that plant. This is something I've always taught my daughter since she was wee little. Like, you ask a plant before you decide to pick it, even if it's the little daffodil in the spring popping up, you know? And yeah, I just think that is really, really important. And one thing that I see a lot in the wild, the new wildcrafting community today is like, oh, there's this herb here. I know that that's that herb. I'm gonna take it all. Yay, me. Yeah. I have children. I have a child who may have children. I'd like those plants to be here for her too. And that's so, yeah. Let's touch a little bit on that, some of the ethics that can go behind wildcrafting today, because I know there are so many people that are very excited about it. And I think that's beautiful. And I'm gonna let you riff on it, and then just I'm gonna say that I feel like there's a few rules that maybe uh have changed since when I first learned. And but I want to hear you speak on some wildcrafting ethics first.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah. So um, and this is a, you know, I I literally teach every program that I teach, we teach about this because I feel like it is essential, right? So if I'm showing people plants out in the wild or I'm talking about the ethics, and that is a three-hour class that I do that is um accompanies every single class that I teach around because it's just so important, right? Because, like you said, and it's not yes, it's about wanting the plants to be here for future generations, and it's also to me, it's about um, and I I, you know, said this before, but I'm gonna say it one more time. Like every single living thing has its own life. And I know that it's like, well, yeah, that's why it's alive, but I don't feel like we really think about that, and especially with plants and maybe insects as well, but plants, you know, um, they have their own lives, they have their own experiences, right? And so um think about just like um well, I don't know, it's not a good example because people do that anyway. They kill, you know, whatever, like other things too, and and don't ask. So, um, but so one of my first um uh suggestions about wildcrafting is first we look. You can look with your own eyes and say, this is not a good spot, this is not a good time, or I shouldn't be harvesting that plant, right? Um, I think about the environment that a plant grows in. Uh, if it's growing in like a deep forest that's old growth or whatever, that right there is uh uh gives me pause, right? So um I

Permission Offerings And Reciprocity

SPEAKER_00 36:58

think about around here we have red cedar, fugia placata, and these beautiful old growth forests that um where trillium grow and you know, and I would harvest fugia leaves because they're giant trees and and you know, you can only reach a little bit. And I would harvest some of those. I would ask first, listen for an answer, leave an offering. An offering can be a simple prayer, it can be a song, it can be something like I used to um, I hope this this is kind of personal, but I used to uh bleed when I menstruated into I'm done with that now, but I would bleed in a uh mortar, like a um uh, and then I would let it dry and then I would grind it up and I would use that menstrual blood as an offering to the plants. And so when I went out, I would offer, you know, if I was gonna wildcraft, I would offer some of that powdered blood to the plants. You can sometimes now I'll offer water or a prayer or a song, or um sometimes I'll pick up trash or, you know, it depends. It depends on the area. Like what does it need? Yeah. Or how can I be of service here is my is my question. How can I serve that piece of land? Right. Not just take, take, take, yeah. Reciprocity. Reciprocity. And to me these days, I'm much more interested in how I can serve as opposed to what I get, what I can get in return. What I get is that feeling of service that I love, you know, that I'm contributing in some small way. That's that brings me great joy. Yeah. So um, so uh, I feel like I just covered a lot in a little bit of time, but that idea that like sometimes I don't ask a plant. If I go and I'm like, oh, this is not appropriate to harvest here or whatever, I don't bother asking. It's kind of like going to someone who has no food and going, have you got any food for me? You know, like don't ask. Okay, that's my, you know, like if if if it if your brain knows, if you can tell it's not a good idea, don't don't even bother to ask. Just say, I'm not gonna do that. Of course I'm not gonna do that. And how can I help?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

You know, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

So then if we're we're sure it is a good idea, there's not nothing's been sprayed, there's abundance there, there's that that local abundance, right? Then I think about um sitting down, calming down, grounding, right? Just like sitting on the earth in front of the plant. I usually close my eyes, breathe deep for a while, just kind of get to a really still calm place. And then I ask, and I usually just ask in my head and say, is it okay? Can I can I harvest some of you? And I speak to that plant kind of as a representative of its species. And so I'm not asking that individual plant, I'm asking for permission to wildcraft the species in that particular area. And sometimes it's just a feeling like um it feels really good. Sometimes it feels bad. And I if it feels bad, that's a no to me. Um, or sometimes the plant, like literally, I feel like does a little happy dance kind of like you know, like it's like yes, I write. And and that is one of the most humbling experiences to me is to feel like plants are actually excited to help us, like they want to do that. They're willing to literally give up their life to help. Like I am so humbled by that. I am so grateful for that. And I just every single like it brings me tears to my eyes. I just it is so precious and so generous, you know. And then I think about like if we take advantage of that generosity, oh, like that just really feels so bad to me. It's feels kind of shameful, you know. And so what does that mean? Like, what would it be like to take advantage? And and to me, what I when I wildcraft, what I want to do is I want to look back at a stand of whatever I'm harvesting, and it's like no one has been there. Like you can't tell. There are so many of those Arnica flowers left, or there's so many of whatever that literally you can't tell that I was there and harvested. That's my goal. So, you know, I was originally taught take one in 10, but that leaves in the end, that leaves nine.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

And that's not enough, in my opinion. So, and it really also depends on the species. Like, so it's not just about wildcrafting the same plants in the same way. And I know that's always stressful for my students because I feel like they're like, oh, but how do I know, you know, which one I can harvest more of, or which one I can har I should harvest less of, or which one I should harvest not at all, right? And part of that is you gotta learn, like, how do they propagate? How long, how long lived are they? You know, when do they start flowering or or not? You know, or um, how long does it take for seeds to sprout? And how do they do that? And I know that can feel super overwhelming as a new um harvester, but do it one plant at a time. So we think about like, oh, I want to go and harvest Oregon grape, for instance. How does it grow? How long does it live? Where does it, you know, where am I within its range? So you can get on the uh USDA website, US Department of Agriculture, and you can look at the ranges of different species of plants. And that's something, um, so this is something that I wanted to actually mention. I feel like I'm a little bit all over the place, but that's great. Okay. So the um the edge of a plant's range is literally like um where it's it's just getting, for instance, too hot uh or too cold in the winter, or um not enough sun or not enough shade or whatever, right? So it's like the edge of where a plant can survive. And those are the ranges like the so if we look on a map, it's like where the range ends, basically, right? That is where the greatest diversity is for that plant species genetically, and it's also where those plants have the most resilience. And right now, with climate change and global warming, that is super important. So if I'm on the edge of a plant's range, I don't want to harvest it there. And the reason for that is because they are the ones that are gonna survive, they're the ones that are going to push those edge boundaries and be able to do that because they're already living on the edge. So if it gets too hot or too cold or whatever, they're there to propagate the species right there, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

So that's something that I feel is really crucial right now with what's you know, what's what's happening with our um environment and medicinal plants. They're traveling, right? They are traveling. So on the edges,

How Much To Harvest Today

SPEAKER_00 44:42

they're traveling. And that's we need to make sure they can do that. Absolutely. That's things like replanting seeds or, you know, like right, like helping them propagate, helping them, like, how can I assist? I think that's such a travel around. We do absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

I love that. And it's such an important thing to bring up. And I love that piece of also replanting seeds, like how can we help them thrive as they they move along. Okay, and so you also already briefly mentioned the one thing that I feel like is one of the rules that I learned in my younger days of wildcrafting from my mentors and teachers. And it was all about like how much to take. And this goes back to what you were saying, what we see in Facebook groups. And I think this is a uh also another really important thing to speak about. You were talking about one in 10. Uh, I think at one point I had learned a quarter of a stand. And I'd love to hear your thoughts and and what has shifted and why it needs to continue to shift.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yeah, I mean, I think that we are uh more people are interested in herbal medicine, more people are foraging a lot. That's getting super popular. And so, and I, you know, I talk to my students a lot about this feeling that we have of a lack of abundance, right? And so that like I remember um when I was in my herb schools, when I went to Michael Moore's school, for instance, he would talk about a plant and you would just be like, Oh my god, I love it. Like, I want some of that, right? And then he'd be like, All right, go, go get it, you know. He never, and I I I'm not talking bad about him. I love Michael Moore. Like he was so amazing and such a precious, precious human being. But he never talked about like wildcrafting ethics that I ever recall, and although I know he had concerns, but um, so he would be like, all right, go. And people would just go off in different directions and go looking for that plant, right? And there was this feeling of scarcity, and there was this feeling of like, am I gonna get any or am I gonna get enough? Right. And um, that feeling is something that I feel like propels a lot of people to take more than they need or more than they should, right? So I talk about that a lot in my classes and just like, you know, just that. That's something to notice and just be like, Yep, I'm feeling that feeling of scarcity. Like, am I gonna get enough? Am I gonna, you know, whatever. And sometimes we harvest as a group and we share, right? Um, or sometimes I just say, like, you know, if you're out wildcrafting and you're feeling that way, just notice it and go, yeah, there's that feeling. It doesn't mean that I should harvest more, it just means I have that feeling, right? And no, it feels uncomfortable. Fine, it feels uncomfortable, yeah. You know, we we we worry about scarcity and that there's not enough abundance, right? And that's how we've been taught is that there's not enough for everyone. I personally don't feel like that's true, right? So, but if we over harvest and we take too much for ourselves and we hoard it, if you will, right, then there's not going to be enough for everyone. Um, so can we um be very aware and respectful of that, you know? And Mel, I feel like I'm missing something that you asked, like part of the question.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Yeah. So I want to just kind of give them more of a solid, not I love what you're saying, but a solid numbers kind of, you know, I had learned a quarter of a stand, but as we progress on, you know, you were talking about a tenth of a stand. And now as it's so much more popular in the world, that means, you know, if you're walking by a stand and you take a tenth of it, then your neighbor Sally walks by that same stand and is like, oh look, because you did a good job wildcrafting and you made it look like nobody's ever been there, right? And then the next person comes. So just kind of what's a I mean, obviously it's going to be so situationally dependent upon the environment, the plant, all of those kinds of things. But what kind of things can we think about?

SPEAKER_00 49:21

So I always think about how rare a plant is, right? And there are some medicinal plants that I never harvest. Trillium is an example, you know, there's one example. It's life cycle. And so the part of knowing, like people will say, Well, there's lots of trillium where I live. It takes about 17 to 20 years for that little tiny, beautiful, sweet flower to even bloom once, you know. So, like part of it is knowing the life cycle of each individual species. And I know that's a lot. And so I almost don't feel like there's an easy answer to that, Mel. Because then that then some other things that I consider is like what time of year is it? What are so we have like bears here, you know, we have lots of wildlife and lots of you know, birds and bears and other animals that need um those, a lot of those plants, right? That are using them for forage or medicine too. Like animals use animals besides humans use plants as medicine, you know, they're they're um eating those medicinal plants too. How else did we learn? Exactly, right? And so um I consider a lot, I consider the weather and like, you know, if it's been hard on that species or or the environment in general where I'm living, um, like this year here in Montana, we've had almost no snow. We've had days in like the 40s, and that is unheard of here. I have never seen the weather like this. It's scary. We have we have plants leafing out. It's insane. Um, so what I know, what that tells me is all of our plants, and especially like our shrubs and trees and things like that, are uh are already very stressed. I had my elderberry, I just planted an elderberry in my um, we turned our front yard into like a food forest, permaculture food forest. And the elderberry started leafing out, and then it froze really hard. And I was like, I don't know if it if it will survive or not, but I know if it does survive, it's gonna be very stressed. It's like not going to be doing well because it already put a bunch of energy into trying to leaf out, right? So, um, so that's the kind of thing like I'm aware of the weather. I'm aware of what other animals around the area might need or want food, shelter, you know, um medicine, uh what other plants. Sometimes we have parasitic plants that are like growing on other plants, like um Bettany particularis. Um, so who is involved with who, right? So I guess I and maybe you have an easier answer, but to me, I feel like there's so many inputs, and I'm sure I'm not aware of many of them, even at all, because we aren't, because we just don't know, you know, like we're um that I feel like I need to be err on the side of caution and be really thoughtful. So trees I tend to feel are are in general more resilient. They can give a few leaves or, you know, um needles or or flowers or whatever it is that we're using of those of those particular species, if they're big, right? I don't, I try not to harvest from saplings or younger

Weather Stress And Wildlife Needs

SPEAKER_00 52:57

trees. Um, same with shrubs, older big shrubs, right? We can prune and I like to prune them for health. I think about like looking at it and going, you know, which branches are rubbing? How can I, how can I help this shrub or this tree, if I'm using bark, to actually thrive better? How can I help it be healthier? So maybe I can prune some of those things where there's going to be an injury, you know, if it keeps rubbing with the wind or, you know, whatever it is. So um it depends on the species I'm harvesting and how abundant it is in my area, and if I'm on the edge, and um, if it's an annual or a perennial or a biennial, you know, so I hate to say like I feel like there isn't an easy answer. I mean, maybe you have a something I haven't thought of that I would love to hear if if you have a yeah, some thoughts around that.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

No, there you're right, in that there is no easy answer. There's so many different nuances to take into play because again, each of these plants are living beings, they all have different environments, different things. Like we as human beings have different things that have conditioned us to be who we are now today, right? Plants are going to be similar. We do have to think about the weather patterns. I'm I'm in Oregon and we're also like, holy crap, there's no snow. I live in a ski resort town. People are bombed, and all I can think about is like, oh my gosh, this summer's going to be so scary. You know, what's going on with my plant friends and what's going to happen with wildfires and so on and so forth. So, so many different variables. And both you and I came to this conversation where you saying, you know, one in 10, and me saying I learned one and a quarter. And as you guys are going out there, remember that both Elaine and I agree that leaving nine is not enough in a stand of 10. And especially when you're taking into considerations the growing patterns of these individual plants in the stand. Another thing I like to think about here is how often people are like, oh my gosh, I just saw that plant and I just learned about it and I'm gonna take it. I very rarely will ever take from a plant that I have just met for the first time. Yeah. Um, I will return to that space again next year and the next year and observe what's happening in the land around them. Also, another one little piece is that observation piece and recognizing not only that the plant that you are hoping to gather, but looking at all of the plants and what's happening around them. This is one of the first things Cascade Anderson Geller taught me on a plant walk, one of my first ever plant walks with another herbalist. And she just had us stand and observe in this particular space. And we were looking, I can't even remember what plant, but I do know that 10, 15 feet away, there were other plants in the middle of the summer that were just dead and brown. And she's like, Well, why is that? You know, is are there chemicals in the ground that killed this plant? Like, do I really want to take this other plant that is right next to something that could have been killed for a reason that may be going into the plant that I am trying to gather? Anyways, um, I think we've both come to the conclusion that there is no one solid answer, but that being aware and conscious and having um respect, having respect for the land and for what that for that plant. And it's not just gimme, gimme, gimme, what can you do for me? How can we help one another?

SPEAKER_00 56:55

And how can we re you know, can we can we be curious enough before we harvest something that we might learn more about its life cycle and you know how it propagates, how it how it reproduces and what it means, right? And then, like you said, that's one of the things I love to do is go back year after year and look at these different stands and different places and see like who likes to be near each other, but also like how are you doing this year? How are things going in comparison to last year and the year before, right? And and so I have a wildcrafting notebook where I write things down and I track year after year, you know, and you want to track things like the weather and you know, because if it's been a hot, dry spring, they might come out earlier, you know. If it's been really wet and cool, they're gonna come out later or whatever. So, so there's a lot of in inputs, right? And and we can um just observe and observe to understand better. And it's crazy, like after observing for a while, the the subtle things you start to kind of notice, right? And I love that. Like sometimes I don't like the other day, I was hiking with a friend and I'm like, you know, I'm really worried about the trees. Um, they're starting to bud. And she's like, How do you know that? You know, like I don't see any difference. And I was like, how do I know that? You know, like what is it? What is it specifically about looking at the trees as I'm hiking or walking and going like, something is not right here? Yeah, you know, I'm concerned. And and so there's like subtle nuances, you know, and you think about it, and you're like, well, yeah, it's been too warm and and you know, we haven't gotten enough, whatever, it's not cold enough, right? But there's that, and then there's this visceral like knowing of like, ooh, this is not right, like I'm worried, and um and not everyone feels you know, like like that does sometimes take deep observation and then paying attention, you know. And so um, yeah, it's like being an herbalist or or under or knowing how to uh wildcraft well or whatever, like those things develop over time too, you know. And as much as I remember being a young herbalist and being like, I want to know it all right now, you know, like some of it does evolve over time.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Yeah, it's such a valid point and that that piece of I want to know it all right now. I think every single herbalist has been there and I see it happening consistently across the board on social media. And when I listen to our conversation right now, it's very easy for me to understand, feel, see, deeply resonate, and agree with everything that you're saying. And there's one little thing that comes up for me that I have this fear of. Like you and I I've been in it for over 25 years, you even longer than that, and develop those relationships. And we are in this instant fix society. We are in this world where people are like, nope, I'm gonna go do it right now. I don't care what those old ladies said. Have the damn time for it, and I want it right now. And so that's where I want to be able to give those people if they're listening. I get you, feel you, been there, done that, and 100% understand it. Um and I wish that there were one solid guideline that we could we could give, other than take your time and get to know the plants, get to know the land and develop that connection. Oh, here's a great guideline. Find your weeds.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Yes. Okay, I love that. I love that. Yeah, yeah, and be careful of being of it them being sprayed, right? Like that's something you want to watch for. But weeds are a great place to start wildcrafting, whether you're foraging or whether you're using, you know, looking for medicinal plants, and some of those are crossovers, right? Like dandelion. But um, absolutely I love that. I think that's a great, great idea. What are some of those weeds that we can start with?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

You know?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

Um, yeah, like again, it depends where you are, but like dandelion is a fabulous example. I think about burdock, I think about um, oh, like um our naturalized kind of weedy species, like around here, mother wart is one of those that, you know, is a prolific cedar and grower. It's not native to the area. Um, I think about St. John's wart around here, which is sprayed a lot, but um, it's considered a noxious weed, right? And it's a beautiful, amazing medicinal. And so um one of the things that you can do is you can download, like do a search for noxious weeds in your area and and look at are any of those medicinal, right? Yeah. Um, and then be very careful where you wildcraft them. And one of the things that I like to do is I talk with landowners around the area. And that's a lot of times where I'm bringing students. And it's also a lot of times if I'm wildcrafting, I'm doing it on private land that people are just like, yes, please come and you know, I never do anything with this acreage I have, and you know, and then you can say, has it been sprayed? Um, what's the history? They know the history, right? So that's a

Start With Weeds And Noxious Lists

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

really nice way to start. And I love that because um sometimes you're actually helping out. Like if you're um, like we used to do this, there's a local park here that's just wild and it's so beautiful. It's my favorite park. Um, and there's all kinds of like uh non-native medicinals in the park from people's gardens and stuff, and it's this huge wild park. Um, and we used to take students there with the permission from the city, and we would harvest non-native medicinal plants there, you know, and it helped them because they didn't want they wanted natives growing in the park. Um, and it helped us because we got to harvest medicinal plants that were around, you know, escapees basically from people's gardens like catnip and motherwort and um burdock and dad lion and stuff like that. Um, so you can like there's a lot of um possibility for actually, and that's a way, again, that we can contribute by harvesting those non-natives um that might be sprayed otherwise, right? Yeah. Love that idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Okay. All of this being said, one thing that has repetitively come up that I think we could even take another angle on is the relationship that you are building with communities of plants. And as herbalists in this challenging world we are in today, like the world is very hard right now. And what can we do as herbalists who are not only developing our communities and connections with plants, but what about our developing our communities and connections with human beings? And oftentimes we as herbalists, when we see people and plants and the planet struggling, I know for me, I want to come in and save the world. I want to just be the one that, I mean, maybe not the one, but I really want to do a big chunk of my life's purpose is to make this world a better place. And I think that there are so many other herbalists that feel that way. And so, what can we do to help our communities and go through challenging times like this?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Yeah, that is beautiful. And that's that social. So we've talked more about that environmental piece, right? And how do we help with environmental resilience? And then how that other piece is like, how do we help with social resilience in our communities? And I um I feel like there are so many beautiful ways to do that that people are doing all over, and it just like um it's so heartwarming to me to see people coming together in communities. And there are some ways that are relatively unique that herbalists can do that or plant people can do that, right? So um some of the things that I do, and I bet you do some of these same things, Mel,

Herbalism For Social Resilience

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

but um, I think about like I love to share plants with my students, with my neighbors, with basically anybody who wants medicinal plants. I'm like, come to my garden, let me share, right? So I have, for instance, there is a LGBTQ group of people here in Missoula who are working on um having um medicinal plants. One of them is a new herbalist and um some of their friends, and they're working on setting up like community support free, basically like a free clinic, right? So I found out about them. I'm like, hey, please come harvest from my garden. Let me give you plants, let me give you seeds, right? Can I teach a free class for you? How can I support your efforts? Right. So part of it is reaching out to other people in the community who might be doing things or thinking about doing things or whatever, where I feel like, how can I support? How can I help? Right. Um, can I give you a discount? To do you want to come to one of our classes? Can I help you do that? You know, can can you um, do you want me to come and teach for your folks? You know, like how how can I do you want me to do a class that's paid and I'll donate the money to you, right? So there's different ways that we can do that within our community. I think free classes, just you know, letting folks come and get some information about herbal medicine is really can be really, really helpful. So that's something that even someone who is a new herbalist can offer simple things. How do you make a salve? Right? How do you make a tincture? Um, let's go on a walk and we'll we'll look at foraging dandelions and let's make some, you know, a dandelion tea or whatever it is, right? Um focusing even on a single plant that people can use in there that's abundant around your local area, right? Um, I I have a ton of seeds from my garden every year. I harvest seeds and I give them to our local seed library that's free. People can come for free and and take the seeds. So there's like all kinds. Uh actually, the the um woman who runs it goes to like the national seed library events and she's like, we have more medicinal plants than any other seed library I know. Yay! So, you know, yay, like just access, free access, right? Um what else? Um, I especially I guess think about vulnerable communities and how can we help? So whether that's um, so we're members of the uh Herbalist Without Borders, right? They are an amazing organization that help um reach out with um really on the ground help for communities that are struggling greatly. So whether that's like an environmental disaster or something like that, how can we help? Right. Yeah. So we could become members of Herbalist Without Borders or members of United Plant Sabers. Those are both great organizations that do really amazing work connected to herbalism and social or environmental responsibility, right? And how we can contribute. So things like that. Um, I think about uh, you know, bringing things to unhoused individuals or your local like um community food bank, or like there's so many ways we can reach out, find something that that um a place in our community that need that doesn't have a lot, that needs help, and provide. Even if it's little, you know, or get a group of folks together and you know, be like, how can we, um, what do you need the most? How can we help? You know, um and to think about offering like, oh, foot care. Okay, how can we, you know, how can we help un unhomed folks uh take care of their feet? For instance, you know, um, maybe we can make some salves, maybe we can make some foot baths, maybe we can, you know, um, I have one of our graduates from last year does foot clinics for nurse and she does foot clinics for for unhoused people, like that kind of stuff. Like, what do you what do you know? What do you love? How can you offer?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

Yeah, I love that. There's there's so many amazing ways to help. And as I listen to you and somebody who also has fallen into this path of herbolism as my vocation and my way of making a living, how can an herbalist who also has to buy groceries and pay the rent and electric bills balance out serving and giving for free and also being able to pay those bills? Because I think that's a very, very important piece. Because if we're stressed about how we're going to live because we're so busy serving, we're not going to be able to serve well. And so I feel like that's a balance. And I I know that you have been in this world for a long time. So maybe you have a little bit of insight on how that can work for people.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Yeah. And so one of the things I always think about is like the ratio of effort to what it's going to do for people, you know? And so for instance, um, if I teach a, and I totally like I teach free classes in our community. If someone comes and asks me to teach a free class, I'm very likely to say yes. But now I ask questions first. So um, like how many people are likely to come? Because the more people, if I can find the venue where a lot of people are going to come versus like three or five people, um, I'm gonna go for that bigger venue because more people will get the information and benefit, right? So, so I think carefully about how to spend my own time and resources that I feel will be the best, will best serve my community. If that makes sense. Um and yeah, and so rather than like, you know, gathering a bunch of seeds and just seeing who wants them, I donate them all to the seed library. They have people, they have volunteers who um, you know, are able to get all the because I just give them in huge bags with like um the plant material around them. They winnow them and like, you know, all that. So, so I like I know kind of my what I feel works best. And so, and sometimes it's trial and error to figure that

Serving Others Without Burning Out

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

out, right? Um, even now still. But then I have my like things that I know, like I feel like this really makes a difference. And so I'm gonna do that. Um, even, you know, if it takes time and it does, like I throughout the summer am like, oh, that's going to seed. Like, all right, I'm gonna take a half an hour, I'm gonna go out with my, you know, paper bag and just cut all the seeds and put them in there and put them in my garage. And I spend hours a year gathering seeds for the seed library. Um so, you know, so it matters like um to not overspend yourself to think about like what I think about is what are the what are the ways that can matter most? Or what are the ways that I feel passionate about, or what are the things I already do, like garden um that will help, you know. Um instead of doing all of it, uh where's our skill set? And what can we, you know, make the biggest difference is what I what I think about. So I don't say yes to every time someone asks me to do a free class. Now I ask questions. I'm like, well, um, how do you advertise? And how many people do you think generally attend your classes? And um, you know, like, and if they're like, well, let's do it in a week, I'm like, no, let's do it in a month. So people have enough time to learn that this is actually happening, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

So I kind of have some parameters now of what I'm um my questions and to kind of filter things out to figure out what's what I feel will be most effective, um, most helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

And creating some some boundaries and and guidelines, it sounds like another thing that I I've done that has been really helpful when I want to offer free classes is do a sliding scale because oftentimes people do recognize the value in what you're doing. And there are people that are in a more financially fortunate position and are happy to cover those that are not. So that could be zero to 20, zero to 40, whatever it needs to be. Um, recognizing that is also really important because sometimes you can go into these medicine-making classes and you want everybody to walk away with really great medicine, but that also it costs you. So being aware of that is really important too, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

Yeah, I love that. Sliding scale is great. And like we do scholarships and we do work trade. Um, so I feel like I um outside of the money realm, you know, there's other ways to like have reciprocity that are um that are valuable, you know, absolutely that are meaningful to me. And so um I like that too. And I I try to think outside that box as well. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

Well, like I told everybody in the beginning of this episode, we were in for a treat. There's been so many times throughout our chat right now that I've just been like, oh my gosh, my heart is so happy, and you're making me smile so big. I don't know if it's ever gonna get on video out to the masses, but just that connection and that deep love and care and compassion for the plants, for the planet, for the people oozes out of you and it makes me so happy right now. So thank you very, very much. Like I said, I always love connecting with you, and I get to connect with you live and in the flesh. Like I get to hug Elaine soon. So excited for that because you are coming to my neck of the woods, you're coming to Portland, Oregon in April, right? And you are teaching an in-person class here. Tell us all about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

So it is a reproductive sovereignty class. Um, it is about the female reproductive system and um the fertility cycle. So learning specifically about that, and then about herbs that we can use to terminate a pregnancy if we uh don't feel in a position to carry one out, and also herbs we can use to recover from like a miscarriage or an abortion um as well. So um, and it's very, it's a it's a seven-hour with lunch class. So um it's quite in-depth. It's a workshop whole day. And um this is kind of a special uh bit of knowledge. It's not a bit, it's a uh focus of knowledge that um I feel right now is really I I just feel called to teach about it. So I've been um working with folks for a long time with this issue, and I have started teaching about it over the last like four years, only in person, not online. So um, and yeah, and I just it's a little risky to talk about. I'm always a little nervous to like um let people know about it, but I also feel like it's just something we really need to pass on knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:50

Yeah, I'm I'm really looking forward to

Classes In Portland And Online

SPEAKER_01 1:17:52

it as such an important uh large chunk of knowledge, especially now as we do see women's rights and healthcare trying to be stripped away from us in so many different regions. So it's it's incredibly important that more of the caretakers and the healers and the knowledgeable people that are here to help women through life um and their health, that it it's such important stuff. So I'm really, really excited for that. And if you guys are in the Portland area or like, hey, I want to go to the Oregon Portland area, April, tell me the date again, date again.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

Oh, um, I think it's the I'm sorry, the 25th, I think it is. And it's all dance from nine to, I'm looking on my calendar now, um, but from nine to uh four. Yeah. And you'll want to like bring a sack lunch.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:47

Um so yeah, we'll put uh details to it. You can also reach out to Elaine about it at Green Path Herb School. I'm also super excited. You're gonna be one of the guest teachers in the community herbalist certification and mentorship, sharing your depth of knowledge and wisdom in the world of herbs for pregnancy. And I am really excited to have another class with you because just the way you ooze your knowledge with such love, experience, care, and compassion is just an absolute delight to soak in. Um, I'm really excited to be able to share that with our students here. I'm really excited to connect with you live and in person. And speaking of live and in person, I wish I were in Montana because you also have your year-long herbal immersion coming up. Yeah, foundations.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:50

Oh, yeah, sorry, the foundations. Sorry. Yeah. So yeah, that is um a year-long program and you can actually take it from anywhere. So it's online, but if you're here in around the Missoula, Montana area, you can also come in-house to some classes. Um, but they're live classes and there's video recordings. So anybody can take it from anywhere. And if you miss a class, you can get the recording. Um, but it starts in March, March 14th, and you can look for that on our website. But it it's a program um that goes over herbs for different, like a bunch of different body systems. Um, we have an ethical biocrafting class, of course. Uh, we taught, we do a bunch of medicine making. So there's like multiple classes on herbal medicine making. And then there's also monographs. So that's like deep dives into individual herbs. And that is taught by myself and my husband John Gwijkovich, who's also an amazing herbalist and um has been doing it a long, long time as well. So uh, so he and I kind of co-teach that program. We both teach different parts of it. And um yeah, you can join us in March if you're interested. And you can just get on our website and look at um Herbal Foundation. So greenpatherbschool.com. HerbalFoundation.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

Yeah. Thank you so much, Elaine. Also, you can find her at Greenpath Herbschool on all the social media channel channels. You know, we're going to link to her stuff in the show notes as well. So are there any other parting words of wisdom or things that you would like our listeners to know before we wrap up this show?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

I guess, you know, my last thought, um, kind of going back to the edge, the plants on the edge of their ecosystem, is that in some ways I feel like herbalists are also edge, like edge people, right? That we tend to bring things to the table that that um and work to the table that is not really available in other places, right? And so um, and I feel like for me personally, that feels really important because I feel like it opens up people um to more, more different ways of healing, different ways of interacting with the natural world, different ways of being in the world and interacting with each other. And um, I think those things are really important right now. And Mel, I know you say a lot, like we need more herbalists in the world. And I completely agree. We need and and being an herbalist can look in so many ways, right? There is no one way to be an herbalist, but I feel like uh kind of living on the edge of our culture is kind of how I see it. Um, that we're kind of bridge that gap between the natural world and the human world, right? And I think that is essential right now, essential. And for us to be able to do that even in our own homes and in our own lives, to have that connection, to experience and explore that connection, even if it's with a single plant. Try a single plant, you know, and eat it, drink it, taste it,

Herbalists As Edge People

SPEAKER_00 1:23:26

be with it, grow it, you know, like hang out with the live plant. It um it opens, it's almost like a portal, you know, it opens us to um things that our ancestors were doing, ways that humans have lived for, you know, millions, literally over a million years. We have been always been connected to plants. And so can we find our way back? And herbalists help do that, right? And plants are the ultimate teachers around finding our way back, in my opinion. Um, animals can do that for us as well, I feel. Um, but that is so important right now, and it is it's a way to deeply connect and to support, but also to get support.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

And encourage everyone to explore that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:24

I love that. What a blessing it is. You know, you you spoke about this earlier in the episode on what an honor it is to be doing this work now, today, here, forevermore. Um, and I just deeply resonate with that. So thank you so much. Thank you for all that you bring to this world and the knowledge and wisdom that you share. I really appreciate and love you, Elaine.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:52

And I love you, Mel. And thank you for all that you bring and do. It really um, you also give me hope, and I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:02

So we need all the hope out there we can get. We do. Thanks, everybody. Be sure to reach out to Elaine at Green Path Herb School. And if you are so fortunate to be able to embark in any of her classes, I know you will not regret it. Thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:23

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:26

Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the Herbalist Path. If you're loving this journey into herbal medicine, please follow and review the show. It helps more people find their own path with the plants. And if you know someone who could use this kind of support, please share this episode with them. So that way we can keep making herbalism spread like wildflowers. Also, a gentle reminder: nothing shared on this podcast is intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease. This is all for educational purposes. Yeah, a little entertainment too. But it is not a substitute for personalized care from a qualified health practitioner. Always do your own research, listen to your body, and when needed, partner with a trusted professional who honors both your intuition and your unique health journey. Until next time, take care, stay curious, and keep walking the herbalist path.