0212: Estate Planning for Pet Owners with Tricia Lincoln

If you have a beloved pet, you are neither too young nor too poor to consider setting up an estate plan. Attorney Tricia Lincoln with Dentons explains how we can make sure our pets are always cared for according to our wishes. Learn more about Tricia or contact her through her online bio.

We ask you to share every episode of Dog Words but this one is especially important to share with anyone you know who is newly responsible for making their own adult decisions. Or maybe someone who’s just been putting this one off.

Every year, Kansas City Magazine gives readers the chance to celebrate their local favorites by voting in the Reader's Choice Poll. Write-in nominations are now open for this year's Best of KC Readers Poll, which will run until April 23. Click here to nominate Rosie Fund for “Best Animal Non-profit” and click here to nominate Dog Words for “Best Local Podcast.” You may nominate once per category per day. If you are using a podcast service that does allow links, go to RosieFund.org/podcast for the full function description of this podcast. Five finalists in each category will advance to the final round of voting from May 13-June 17.

Celebrate 5 years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com.

Music for this episode is provided by alternative string duo, The Wires. Visit them at TheWires.info. Learn fiddle and cello-fiddle online — even if you've never played before — from Laurel Morgan Parks and Sascha Groshang at FiddleLife.com.

The transcript for this episode is available on the Dog Words Buzzsprout page: Buzzsprout.com/840565.

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Transcript

TRICIA  0:03 
When we talk about the people that we love and the animals that we love, I think caring for them becomes more important than our anxiety or being scared about, you know, "I have to talk about what happens if I'm gone." And it actually can be more fun because you're planning for how you want to take care of that special fur baby.

PHIL   0:30 
I'm Phil Hatterman and this is Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund. Today, Attorney Tricia Lincoln explains how we can make sure our pets are always cared for according to our wishes. We ask you to share every episode of Dog Words, but this one is especially important to share with anyone you know who is newly responsible for making their own adult decisions. Or maybe someone who's just been putting this one off.

If you're new to this podcast, in each episode we explore the world of dog care and companionship. "We save each other" is the motto of Rosie Fund, which simply means the more we do for dogs, the more they do for us. And they already do a lot.

If you love dogs, you'll love Dog Words. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Go to the podcast page at Rosie fund.org to share your thoughts. We welcome suggestions for topics and guests. The only way we know which ones you like is if you tell us. Then we'll try to deliver more of that. Please download, follow, rate, and most importantly, share Dog Words.

Every year Kansas City Magazine gives readers the chance to celebrate their local favorites by voting in the Readers Choice Poll. Write-in nominations are now open for this year's Best of KC Readers Poll, which will run until April 23. Use the links in this episode's description to nominate Rosie Fund for best animal nonprofit and Dog Words for best local podcast. You may nominate once per category per day. If you are using a podcast service that does not allow links in the description. Go to the podcast page at RosieFund.org for functioning links. Five finalists in each category will advance to the final round of voting from May 13 through June 17. If we make the cut in either category, we'll update you on how to vote.

Celebrate five years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Links are in the description.

Please follow Rosie Fund on social media. Subscribe to the free Rosie Fund YouTube channel that offers great videos of Rosie, Peaches, and shelter dogs, including some exclusive content. Your donations help fund the Rosie Life Starter Kits that make sure these senior and harder-to-adopt dogs have some of the items they'll need in their forever home.

Next time on Dog Words, Hannah Manley from Brave Animal Rescue tells how a small group of dedicated volunteers can make a big difference.

The mission of Rosie Fund is to provide humans with the resources and education they need to give senior and harder-to-adopt dogs a better life. We thank you for joining our mission.

Today on Dog Words we welcome attorney Tricia Lincoln from Dentons to talk about something that is overlooked in general by people who aren't pet owners, but I think is overlooked even more so when someone has a pet. So we're going to get into that in a moment. But first, Tricia, welcome to the show.

TRICIA  3:29 
Thank you.

PHIL   3:30 
We met — I guess our intersection is golf.

TRICIA  3:33 
It is.

PHIL   3:33 
That we both love golf, you're a much better golfer than I am. I aspire to golf, like you. Listeners out there who don't golf enough, who wish they golfed more, let me know because I'm a Yoga For Folfer instructor. I don't plug that very often on the show. But just to let people know, two things you should do if you're a golfer, take lessons and do yoga.

TRICIA  3:54 
I completely agree. I do yoga five days a week.

PHIL   3:58 
And you take lessons.

TRICIA  3:59 
And I do take lessons still.

PHIL   4:01 
So your instructor will get you proper fundamentals and see those things that you don't realize you're doing wrong or just as importantly, the things you're doing right. Keep doing that! But your body needs to be able to handle the balance, the mobility, the mental focus, breathing, just in life.

TRICIA  4:18 
Yoga has changed my golf game. I'm not gonna lie. And I plug it to everybody. As I've gotten older, I went through the college scene, you know, where they had us lifting. I grew up with the Tiger Woods Annika Sorenstam era where everyone was doing weights and not enough stretching. And I can tell you from being there that yoga has by far improved my game over any other weight training routine that I could ever do. So...

PHIL   4:42 
Next topic, dogs. Are you a dog person? Because we're gonna talk a little bit about dogs, specifically, and pets in general.

TRICIA  4:50 
I'm a pet person. I don't own a dog. So my travel schedule doesn't allow me to have a dog. I have a cat who's like a dog. He sits for treats, goes on a leash, the whole deal.

PHIL   5:02 
But they're much more tolerant of your schedule than a dog would be.

TRICIA  5:04 
Of me traveling. Yeah. But several of my friends, they all have dogs. And I love Razzy Roo, my friend's dog, and she's a black lab and thinks that she's a lap dog. So I'm a pet person, in general.

PHIL   5:17 
You got the Peaches seal of approval when you arrived.

TRICIA  5:21 
I did! Peaches didn't even bark at me.

PHIL   5:23 
Lots of sniffing and tail wagging and...

Unknown Speaker  5:25 
Yes, and licking! I got a lick.

PHIL   5:28 
So she gives her kisses. For pet people, anyone who loves their pet, whether it's a cat, a dog, any number of species of animals, you want what's best for them. But there's also, I think, an implied obligation or responsibility that you take on when you get a pet. Their well-being is one of your priorities.

TRICIA  5:50 
Absolutely.

PHIL   5:51 
And that's easy on a daily basis. You feed them, walk them, change the litter box, clean the fish tank, those sort of daily tasks that are part of being a pet owner. But what gets overlooked is, "What if something happens to me? What happens to my dog?" People don't think about that enough.

TRICIA  6:16 
No, I would agree.

PHIL   6:17 
But just in general, people don't think about, "What happens to all of my belongings, my loved ones, my wishes, what's important to me, if I'm not either capable or around to make those decisions?" Which seems like maybe our conversation is taking a somber turn.

TRICIA  6:39 
People do not like to talk about mortality. Period. End of story.

PHIL   6:50 
Which is probably why that doesn't get addressed.

TRICIA  6:45 
It's not an easy subject. I try to make it lighter-hearted when I'm working with clients. But mortality is something that none of us want to address Or nobody wants to think about, "I'm gonna die eventually." My specific job, I'm an estate planning lawyer, and I deal in the to sure things in life, death and taxes. And it can be morbid, but it doesn't have to be. I think that if people would take a step back and look at it as just having a plan, just like they have any other plan. If you're going through that phase in life where you're still in school, or you've gone back to school, you have an educational plan. You have a financial plan. Most people in the United States have a financial plan. You need a succession plan. You need an estate plan. That is what an estate plan is. It's really a succession plan for your life.

PHIL   7:11 
If a part of you knows you need that plan, and you just never make the phone call or visit the website or have that conversation, that's always going to be nagging at you. Once you take care of it, then you can move on. That's not going to keep you awake at night. That's not an uncomfortable conversation that's waiting out there for you. You've had the conversation and you realize, with someone like Tricia, it doesn't have to be as uncomfortable as all that. It can be a sense of accomplishment. "I've done this adult thing. I've taken care of this." It's just like buying your first house or buying a car or planning a trip and doing those things as an adult that as a kid, you thought, "That's an adult thing to do." Check that off the list.

TRICIA  8:23 
Yeah, I completely agree. My younger newer clients that this is their first go around with an estate plan, because an estate plan is a living breathing thing. It changes over time. It's not a set it and forget it. But my first-timers, it's actually really cute because they'll get done with the process and we'll do a signing and then they'll go, "Tricia, we just did some major adulting. Yes! I am so happy, we get to check this off of our list." And most of the time they're very happy. And it's putting together a puzzle. Literally, that's what I tell my friends who say, "Well, you do estate planning." And it — there's a lot more involved than just well in trust and whatnot. Basically, I'm a big puzzle solver. I take people's life puzzles and then I put all the pieces together and make it all work.

PHIL   9:13 
There's lots of things that you can do for yourself online now that you didn't used to be able to do at all, let alone online.

TRICIA  9:20 
Please don't.

PHIL   9:22 
You're not going to do it as well. It's kind of like a kitchen remodel. You can have no skills as a contractor, a builder and you can remodel your kitchen. You'll eventually get it done. How happy will you be with that kitchen? How reliable will be the work that got done? And you could have had it done right in a fraction of the time.

TRICIA  9:46 
Yeah, a lot of people have tried to turn to LegalZoom or things like that for estate plans or setting up corporations. I kind of tell the clients who asked me those questions' "Well, you can pay little more and have it done right or you can pay me a whole lot more to unwind the errors that are going to be made later."

PHIL   10:07 
You can pay me now or pay me in a year, when you figure out you should have paid me in the first place.

TRICIA  10:11 
Well, and let's be real, okay? These documents there is jargon and lingo and define terms that we learn in law school that are on these forms in LegalZoom. Whether it's estate plan, or or you're doing, you know, a corporation, they're asking you to check boxes that you may not necessarily understand the impact of what that box really means.

PHIL   10:32 
Yeah, it's one thing if you read it and don't understand it and then you Google to look up, "Okay, what's that really mean?" What's worse is you read it and think you understand it.

TRICIA  10:41 
Correct.

PHIL   10:41 
And don't dig any deeper.

TRICIA  10:43 
Correct. We're talking to the whole U.S. but specifically where I'm based is Kansas and Missouri and I kind of live really close to the border, and I practice in both states. The laws are very different in both states, as far as the documents. There are definite changes and how probates done if you have to go that route, or what will be honored as a document.

PHIL   11:06 
Oh, yeah. It varies from state to state what is considered a legal document.

TRICIA  11:09 
Yeah. And that's why I think if you partner with somebody that's a lawyer that you get along with that can walk you through this process — and I keep it very simple when I do it. I do diagrams and stuff like that. It makes it very digestible for the client. And then the process is worth paying someone to have you do it. Because the back end, if you try to implement a plan yourself, and it's not done, right, the back end is just a lot more money, and a lot more heartache and open wounds for the family, because it's a much longer process to clean it up rather than just having it done the right way.

PHIL   11:51 
So in general, I think together, Tricia and I are making the point, you might want to think about talking to a professional for getting an estate plan. And some of the objections to that are, "I can do it myself." I think we've addressed that. What are some of the other objections you might encounter from people who don't get an estate plan,

TRICIA  12:12 
The mortality issue is probably the biggest one. I don't know if you can say this in a podcast, but most people would rather talk about their finances or their sex life than talk about dying. So...

PHIL   12:26 
Mm hmm. We can say that on our podcast,

TRICIA  12:27 
Okay. That is probably the biggest issue that we run into. People really want to do it and then they start the process. And then they get cold feet and back out. And I typically, when my clients sign on the dotted line, I hound them.If they haven't gotten me answers, and I hold their hand and walk them through the process, and we can revisit...

PHIL   12:49 
Kind of like a fitness trainer.

TRICIA  12:51 
Yeah!

PHIL   12:51 
It's like you're paying them to keep you on task.

TRICIA  12:53 
Yes, exactly. I think the biggest hurdle is just for those people who are really having that issue with mortality. I really would try to rethink your position on it, okay, on what an estate plan is. Instead of thinking about dying, think about it as a succession plan.

PHIL   13:12 
Right.

TRICIA  13:12 
Just like if you own a business, you have a business succession plan for what happens when you want to get out. This is just the same thing. We just need to put a plan in place that takes care of all the people and the things that you love.

PHIL   13:26 
And when that item of your affection, that object of your affection, is a beloved pet, how is that handled in an estate plan?

TRICIA  13:35 
We have what is called a pet trust. So I'm going to do a real brief estate planning overview. I'll keep it very short.

PHIL   13:45 
'Cause people, yeah, people need to understand the terminology.

TRICIA  13:47 
Correct. There's a good, better, best in estate planning. Good is you die with nothing. Everything goes through the courts. And there's a system for that. It's been around for a long time and it works and it's called probate. A will is better in the sense that you have a document that tells the probate court what to do and who to give your money to and how to take care of your pets. You can do that in a will. And in the case of a pet, you can appoint somebody to care for your pet. And you can even leave them funds to take care of your pet. And I'll compare and contrast that with a trust after I explain what a trust is because there's some caveats there. The best way for people who own assets and have pets, things like that, is to do what's called a revocable living trust. All right? And all it is is a contract that you're going to enter into with yourself. I know that sounds crazy. But you enter into it with yourself to manage your stuff for your benefit while you can. Okay? And what a trust does is it keeps you out of having to go to court. It keeps everything private. Court is public. A trust is private. A lot of people like that. And trusts are more flexible with what you can do. So when you're setting up a trust, similarly with a will, you can appoint people to get property, take care of your things, take care of your pets, you're going to do the same thing with a trust. Except, you can have trusts inside of a trust. Okay? And that's where pet trusts come in.

PHIL   15:26 
Okay. Because someone who has a trust for their pet, may also have some other items on their list.

TRICIA  15:33 
Correct. It's a, it's a totally separate contract within your existing trust. And what you can do is set aside sums of money to take care of your pet. You can denote who you would like to have your pet. You can do successors in case your initial person isn't available. We can do a contingent successor or a line of people.

PHIL   15:55 
But what if I just tell my sister, "Hey! Something happens to Dawn and I, I want you to take care of Peaches."? And I'm going to assume that she can afford to take care of Peaches or I could even say, "In my will, I'm giving you x $1,000. And that's more than enough to take care of Peaches till the end of her life, if something should happen to us." What's wrong just doing that?

TRICIA  16:21 
Well, she doesn't necessarily have to take care of Peaches. First of all, she can...

PHIL   16:26 
But I asked her to!

TRICIA  16:28 
But it doesn't always work that way. And some families, I've seen fights over who's going to take care of the pet. What if we have brothers and sisters involved and brother Joe really wants to care for Peaches? But you know, sister Susie is the one who's supposed to? Well, we have nothing in writing. Now we have a family argument ensuing when everybody is supposed to be grieving. On the money side, you can most definitely leave people money in a will to take care of your pets. But there's nothing guaranteeing that that money is actually going to be used to take care of your pet. So that's where a pet trust differs in the sense that you can actually split the people who are caring for your pets and the people who are taking care of the money. So you can have a check and balance on making sure that your pet is being cared for properly.

PHIL   17:26 
And my sister isn't just going to the Maldives.

TRICIA  17:29 
Correct. And that the money is being used appropriately for the pet. So there are ways we can set that up. And the landmark case that started all of this is Leona Helmsley and Trouble the Dog. So Trouble was left millions of dollars and had to have security and all of that, you know. There's safeguards we can put into a pet trust to make sure your pet has identifiers. Because there's case law out there. Everybody has probably seen Meet the Fockers and Jinxy. And how Jinxy got away and they tried to dub the cat. People have tried to do that with pet trusts when there's a lot of money, especially if the person who's caring for the pet is getting a stipend or something like that to care for the pet they want that money to keep coming in. So pet trusts allow us, for those people who would like to go that far and put those types of measures in, to have all of those checks and balances to make sure that it's really your pet that's being cared for. And the money is really going to what it's supposed to.

PHIL   18:34 
One thing that really highlights the value of talking to a professional such as yourself who does this more than once is thinking through things like that, like it didn't even occur to me a stipend. Because I could do the math on, "Here's how much we spend a year on Peaches." So we'll kind of do our own actuarial table that, "Well, a dog like this at the most has three or four more years, so take three or four times the yearly expenditure." But then calculating in a stipend for someone, because it's not just vet bills and food. It's time, their gas, a change to their lifestyle by taking on your beloved pet and figuring out well what does that cost or even just having that conversation with them. "I want to cover all of Peaches expenses, but I also want to make sure that I'm acknowledging how much it means to me that you're doing this if something happens to us." And so that's an extra $100 a month or $1,000 a year or whatever.

TRICIA  19:39 
Yeah, whatever the individual creating the plan decides to do. The other thing that is a difference between wills and leaving things in your will for your pet versus a trust is once the money is doled out in a will, okay, so say it — we'll use sister Susie — say we're going to put in our well that sister Susie You're supposed to take Peaches and I, just to disclose, I don't know what your sister's name is. So...

PHIL   20:05 
Her name's Kathy. We can go with Kathy.

TRICIA  20:06 
Okay. So sister Kathy is supposed to take care of Peaches and you leave Kathy $5,000. Okay? Kathy gets Peaches, the judge says, "Yes, she can take care of Peaches. Here's your $5,000." Well, Kathy gets the money. And she can use it however she wants. We're gonna assume that she uses that for Peaches, right? But what happens if Peaches passes, and there's still money leftover? Well, with a will Kathy just gets all the money.

PHIL   20:35 
Mm hmm. We don't want that.

TRICIA  20:37 
So with a trust, you can set it up to say — you have to think $5,000 to some people is a lot. I have some pet trusts that are 100,000, $250,000 trusts where if there's money leftover, do we want that money to go to the people caring for the pet? Do we want them to receive a portion of it, and then the rest, go back to the family, or donate it to charity, to pet shelter or something like that? What do we want to do with that excess once our pet is no longer here. It just allows for more flexibility in the planning. A trust in general, whether it's a pet trust or a revocable living trust for a couple or an individual, they're more flexible than a will.

PHIL   21:25 
Having a will a trust all of your estate planning figured out, it's a lot easier to do that when you're young, and you think, I'm too young to do this. I don't have enough money to do this." It's easier to do it then, than to start from scratch. When you have more money, more decisions to make, it's easier just to have this in place. And then as maybe the pet that's in your trust grows old and dies, then that comes out of the trust, and you change it to another pet. Or you realize, "Originally I had $1,000 to go toward this, but I can afford 10,000 or 20 or whatever." And just make those changes over the years and not have to start from square one.

TRICIA  22:10 
Yeah, I think it's easier for most people if they've started out when they're younger. All right? I see even my — she's gonna be 21 years old, my stepdaughter — she has a basic estate plan in case something happens to her. She has a will. And she has durable powers of attorney. So if she's hurt, someone can make decisions for her.

PHIL   22:31 
My advice to someone who's that young, if you already have estate planning, that is going to change your mindset for other financial decisions.

TRICIA  22:42 
Correct.

PHIL   22:42 
You're gonna to be so much more responsible with your spending, you're saving, you're planning for all aspects of finances, once you've taken that step, because you've sort of flipped a switch. Going back to what we were talking about earlier, "I'm an adult, I'm making adult decisions." Choices have consequences.

TRICIA  23:02 
They do. And I think it's easier for people who have started younger with a basic estate plan, maybe they don't have a trust, because they don't own a house and cars, you know, they're leasing and renting and you don't necessarily need all the big bells and whistles until you start accumulating in life. And I believe that is easier for people who have started younger to transition their plan through all the different phases. Because once you get it done and over with the first time, it's just another piece of the pie in life planning. "All right, I now have a new house and I got a new job with a new retirement plan. And I should probably call Tricia and see if we need to make any changes. Because this is a lot of life changes." Or, "I've gotten married and have a kid." And that transition just becomes easier through time because you're thinking about it in a different way. I do think that it can be more difficult for people that are later in life to address it for the first time because there are difficult decisions that have to be made. And you do have more assets that have accumulated. It can be a little bit of a longer process. And I just think that it's a harder hurdle to get over the initial, "I really don't want to talk about this."

PHIL   24:25 
When you're young and you don't have as many assets, the question, "I wouldn't know where to start" really isn't overwhelming it's just, "I'm young. I'm new at this. I don't know where to start." As you get older and accumulate more assets and have more decisions and perhaps tougher decisions to make, "I don't know where to start" becomes overwhelming.

TRICIA  24:47 
"I don't want to start."

PHIL   24:48 
It's, "I, I don't want to get into this." It's a daunting task instead of, "Oh, I can knock this out in a couple meetings with Tricia and then I will have started and I will never have to ask the question again of where to start. I just have to ask, "What's next?"

TRICIA  25:05 
Correct. I think you're absolutely spot on. "Where to start?" can become, "I don't want to start." And everybody should look at their plan. It will make your family's life so much easier. And allow them to grieve when it does happen versus, "Oh, my gosh, I have to unravel all of this massive..."

PHIL   25:30 
So what is that first step? Where does someone start?

TRICIA  25:35 
Someone who's ready to take the next step just needs to mentally say, "Okay, I'm going to pick up the phone." That is the first hurdle. Go on the internet. Look up estate planning attorneys in your area. Read their bios. Read what they're into,. If you were to go look at my biography on Dentons, you'll know that I like to golf, and I fish and I play the piano. I'm married and have two stepkids. You get to see my picture. Kind of how I got to be where I'm at. It does give you a good sense of who you're going to be talking to. Pick out a couple people that look interesting and pick up the phone and have a conversation. Make an appointment. Say, "I'm interested in estate planning. I would like to talk to you. I'm interviewing some attorneys. I've never done this before."

PHIL   26:22 
And you're not going to get — whether it's an attorney, or a financial planner, or a tax preparer — who is going to respond with, "What is the meaning of this? Wait! You're going to talk to two or three, and not just..." No. They're in the same position you are. They want a good relationship. They don't want someone who's their client, who, after a meeting decides, "I hate this person. They're so annoying. We're not compatible at all. But I'm just gonna stick it out and get this over with." Because that's not good word of mouth. Because that's what they're gonna be telling all their friends and relatives is, "Oh, that law firm is just the worst. But I keep going back." They want you to be happy. The attorney, the financial advisor, they want you to be a happy, satisfied client. Check with a few, like Tricia said, make sure it's a fit.

TRICIA  27:16 
Yeah, if you get a response, where the lawyer says, "Well, I'm not interested." Well, that just checked somebody off your list.

PHIL   27:23 
You get to move on.

TRICIA  27:24 
And it happens. Um. I will say, you should look, some attorneys do charge for initial consultations. I don't. However, I don't allow people to copy my proprietary information and diagrams.

PHIL   27:39 
That's fair.

TRICIA  27:39 
You gotta pay to play. I'll still draw it out and all that stuff and walk you through it. But just go and have a conversation. "I've never done this. Explain it to me. I need to know the process." Get a feel for who you're working with. And if you like the process that they've explained to you, and you can follow it, then maybe they're your guy. Or girl.

PHIL   27:58 
This is important, regardless of your age. And regardless of your assets. If you think, "Well, I don't have enough assets." That's awesome. This is gonna be really easy.

TRICIA  28:10 
And less expensive.

PHIL   28:13 
Start now. But especially if you have a beloved pet.

TRICIA  28:17 
Yes, I have seen some not great situations with pets. So I have several pet trusts, which I love my clients who have done pet trusts. I've even had issues with the pet trusts, hence the reason I talk about all the different permutations of them. But I have seen some issues where nobody wanted the pet. Where does the pet go then? And how do we effectuate what I think my client's wishes would have wanted to be in that instance. I know that they wanted this person to take the pet and that person didn't want the pet.

PHIL   28:53 
Or they just...

TRICIA  28:54 
And if they don't have a pet trust, we don't have a lot of avenues, you know. Now I'm trying to guess and the family is upset and...

PHIL   29:02 
Well, Peaches has some great friends. You might just assume, "Well, one of them would take care of Peaches." But if they already have a dog, they might not be able to take on another dog or they might have some plans for their lifestyle that don't allow for adding a 60 pound pit bull to their family.

TRICIA  29:22 
Or they might be allergic and nobody knew. I've had that happen.

PHIL   29:24 
Just because someone has your dog. Yeah, just because they love your dog and don't mind your dog visiting them or them visiting you and they love Peaches when they're here, doesn't mean they want to live with Peaches.

TRICIA  29:37 
Correct. We build contingencies into estate plans as lawyers. It's just how we operate. I drive my family crazy by contingency on contingency. They always say, "Stop lawyering me." And I can't. I happen to build a lot of levels of contingencies and these are all of the conversations that you should be having with your estate planning attorney about your pet. "I would like this person to take care of my pet. If they're not available, I'd like this person because I know that they're going to take them on playdates to Peaches favorite park to see Peaches' friends. And if neither of them are available, well, here are my other options." Right? "Ultimately, if no one could take Peaches, where would we want Peaches to go? You know? "Would we want her to go to a pet rest home, where she's cared for with other animals?" There are a lot of avenues out there that a well-educated attorney will be able to walk you through. I do want to touch a little bit on some disclaimers since we're talking in the United States. All 50 states at this point have a pet trust statute or a pet trust common law rule that allows attorneys to build a pet trust in to your estate plan to your revocable living trust that you're going to set up for yourself and your family. However, states differ on how long pet trusts can last. So you have to understand that there are also species of pets out there that can live a lot longer than what those time limits are. And some of those time limits are like 21 years. So the trust can only...

PHIL   31:16 
So if you have a trust for your turtle or your elephant?

TRICIA  31:18 
We're going to be talking about some other avenues. So again, just another reason to sit down with a professional who knows the rules in your states, knows how to work with those rules, especially if you have a turtle, a snake, a parrot, and I can go on and on with pets that can live 50, 60, 80 years.

PHIL   31:42 
That are probably going to outlive you.

TRICIA  31:43 
Yes, there are definitely some interesting workarounds that can be done in those circumstances to care for that animal. They're not perfect but they work. Those are my little caveats that every state is a little bit different. So that's another reason to sit down with a lawyer in your area.

PHIL   32:02 
When you do that sort of informational interview to screen who's the right lawyer to work with, they should be asking questions like, "Well, what is it that you want to protect? What is your goal of having an estate plan?" They're going to ask you questions like that. So be prepared to say, "One of my priorities is to know that my dog or my turtle is taken care of."

TRICIA  32:29 
Absolutely.

PHIL   32:29 
And so then that person can say, "We've done dozens of trusts for various kinds of animals that we have lots of experience with this. "But if they just kind of give you a blank stare, "Pet what?"

TRICIA  32:43 
Probably not the lawyer for you.

PHIL   32:45 
Not for you.

TRICIA  32:46 
It is a niche within the estate planning field. It's become more commonplace. But it's still kind of a niche area. There are several different little niches trusts in the estate planning world that people can specialize in. I don't know that I would say I formally specialize in pet trusts, but I have done several.

PHIL   33:10 
You have experience.

TRICIA  33:11 
I've done lots of pet trusts for my clients

PHIL   33:13 
You're not going to go scrambling to your law books, "Oh, my God. Pet trusts! Pet trusts! Pet trusts!"

TRICIA  33:15 
Yeah. What's a pet trust? No.

PHIL   33:18 
Wikipedia pet trust.

TRICIA  33:19 
Oh, don't Wikipedia. When I interview an initial client, and I'll be honest, most of my clients come via word of mouth. And I normally send them an estate planning questionnaire. And it might seem daunting if you get one of these from a lawyer. Just fill it out to the best of your ability 'cause we know that you're not going to know all of the terminology. Most of it is for us to get the background on your family. Are you married? Are you single? Do you have kids? The initial questionnaires are kind of our kind of get to know you feel the situation out. And then normally clients will send those back and it gives me a starting point for the conversation on what I think the client might need and want before we have that discussion. So I have questions prepared for the client to help guide the conversation. I think that the conversation goes even better when a client has had a chance to think about it and write down some things that they're concerned with. And that may be, "I have pets. I'm always going to have pets. I want to make sure that we take care of our pets." By the way I can write a pet trust to take care of the pet that is alive at the time that you pass. So it doesn't have to be Peaches by name. We can identify your pets when you're gone. And then they're the ones that are beneficiaries of the trust. So there are ways to do it long term. But it definitely helps when we have an open dialogue. And for me, I think that the questionnaire helps start that dialogue. Then it's just really a conversation. I, I talked to people and say, "Have you ever done estate planning?" And if they've say, "No." I say, "Okay. I have a, I have a diagram. I have a presentation. It takes about 45 minutes. I'm gonna to walk you through a basic estate plan. What I think you need, okay, including all of these things. And then afterwards, we're going to have a discussion." Because then the client knows all the terms and kind of what we're looking for. And we can have an educated conversation about maybe who they're thinking of doing what. Or, "I have a pet I'd like to take care of." As we get into it, and I peel the layers of the family onion back we learn more.

PHIL   33:30 
And it might be a couple of sessions.

TRICIA  35:46 
Yeah. And we don't make all the decisions on the first session. Uunless it's someone who's been through it before.

PHIL   35:52 
Mm hmm.

TRICIA  35:52 
And they're like, "Bing bing bing bing bing bing bing. This is what we're doing."

PHIL   35:55 
So, yeah, don't walk into that first meeting thinking, "They're gonna pressure me to sign things. I'm gonna have to know everything right now. Have everything figured out." You're gonna go with their pace.

TRICIA  36:04 
Yeah, and some clients...

PHIL   36:05 
So one, three, five however many sessions it takes to meet their needs.

TRICIA  36:09 
Yes. Some clients sign an engagement agreement after the first meeting. So an engagement agreement is just the contract that hires a lawyer. So if you ever get someone that says that that's what it means. Some clients say they want to think about it, and then come back, and they need to digest it. And that's fine. I'd say more often than not a lot of my clients like the process. So I have some that think about it. But most of the time, they're like, "Yeah, let's do this."

PHIL   36:34 
"This makes sense. Now that I've..."

TRICIA  36:36 
"This makes sense. We want to talk about some stuff but get us the engagement agreement. Let's start this process. Thank you." I just got this one. I had a client tell me, literally, that they were let down at the end of the appointment. And I went, "Why?" "Because we were so amped up. We had so much anxiety about getting this done. and even talking about it and it was fun."

PHIL   36:58 
It's kind of like, we're in the middle of people getting their COVID vaccine shot. And if you're dreading the shot, that is worse than the actual shot. And then for most vaccinations, the needles in and out before you realize, "Oh, you're done?" And then it's what you just described, it's like, well, then I'm upset that, "Well, why was I putting this off? Why was I dreading this? Why was I fretting and laying awake at night? When this could be over with and it was nothing?"

TRICIA  37:30 
Yeah, absolutely.

PHIL   37:33 
If you want to learn more about Tricia and Dentons, there'll be a link in the episode description. any parting thoughts, Tricia?

TRICIA  37:41 
I think that this process can be a lot more fun than people think. I know that I'm partial and this is what I do on a daily basis. When we talk about the people that we love, and the animals that we love, I think caring for them becomes more important than our anxiety or being scared about, you know, "I have to talk about what happens if I'm gone." And then actually can be more fun because you're planning for how you want to take care of that special fur baby of yours.

PHIL   38:15 
Yeah, you get to talk to Tricia about something you love.

TRICIA  38:17 
And you get to talk about your pet.

PHIL   38:19 
And you get to walk away from that encounter knowing that you've made a responsible choice.

TRICIA  38:25 
Absolutely. And I completely agree with what you said earlier. I think as a pet owner you have a duty to make sure that your pet is cared for if something happens to you. I have a care plan in place for my pet. You all should, too.

PHIL   38:42 
Thank you so much for enlightening our listeners, Tricia. Again, there's going to be a link in the description for more information. And it's not just for pets. It's for all of your important assets, your loved ones. Have that plan of succession. Thank you for joining us, Tricia.

TRICIA  39:05 
Thank you.

PHIL   39:12 
I'm Phil Hatterman and you've been listening to Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund.

Thank you to attorney Tricia Lincoln for joining us from Dentons. Learn more about the firm or just Tricia by using the links in the description. Like they say in the commercials. choosing an attorney is an important decision. As Tricia does a great job of explaining in our interview, find the right professional for you. Regardless of the service, it's your money. It's your life. And in some cases, it's your beloved pet. Give it the attention it deserves.

Don't forget to nominate Rosie Fund and Dog Words in Kansas City Magazine's "Best of Poll. You may nominate once per category per day until April 23. Use the links in the description.

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Next time on Dog Words we're joined by Hannah Manley from Brave Animal Rescue.

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