0220: Dog Behavior with Max Canine’s Emily Pantoja

Dog trainer and behaviorist Emily Pantoja from Max Canine discusses how shelter at home has impacted our dogs, what to expect from a respectable trainer, the difference between socialization and normalization, and much more.

Emily’s social media:
MaxCanine.co.uk
Facebook
Instagram

From the Dog Words archives:
0137: Pet Nation with Author Mark Cushing
0147: Dog Behaviorist Dr. Ellen Furlong
0202: Science Writer Emily Anthes
0219: American Ninja Warrior Roo Yori

Watch friend of Dog Words Roo Yori compete on NBC’s American Ninja Warrior coming up June 28. There’s still time to support Wallace the Pit Bull Foundation’s capital campaign to purchase property by pledging to Roo’s Ninja for Dogs fundraiser at RooYori.com.

Celebrate 5 years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com.

Music for this episode is provided by alternative string duo, The Wires. Visit them at TheWires.info. Learn fiddle and cello-fiddle online — even if you've never played before — from Laurel Morgan Parks and Sascha Groshang at FiddleLife.com.

The transcript for this episode is available on the Dog Words Buzzsprout page: Buzzsprout.com/840565.

Make a donation at RosieFund.org or through our Facebook page. You can contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Also check out our page on BarkYours, the online mall with gifts for people who love their dogs.

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Transcript

EMILY  0:03 
And don't get me wrong. My service in the British Army is some of the best years of my life, some of the hardest, but some of the best. But I must say that what I'm doing now is what I've cared about my entire life. Dogs are my life and the buzz, the feeling I get when I walk away from a client knowing that things have changed is just incredible.

PHIL   0:31 
I'm Phil Hatterman, and this is Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund.

Today, dog trainer and behaviorist Emily Pantoja from Max Canine and I discuss how shelter at home has impacted our dogs, what to expect from a respectable trainer, and much more.

If you're new to this podcast, in each episode we explore the world of dog care and companionship. "We save each other is the motto of Rosie Fund," which simply means the more we do for dogs, the more they do for us. And they already do a lot. If you love dogs you'll love Dog Words. We welcome your comments, questions and suggestions. Go to the podcast page at Rosie fund.org to share your thoughts. We welcome suggestions for topics and guests. Please download, follow, rate, and, most importantly, share Dog Words.

Celebrate five years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Links are in the description. Your donations help fund the Rosie Life Starter Kits that make sure these senior and harder-to-adopt dogs have some of the items they'll need in their forever home.

Please follow Rosie Fund on social media. We're on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the free Rosie Fund YouTube channel that offers great videos of Rosie ,Peaches, and shelter dogs, including some exclusive content featuring dogs that get the Rosie Life Starter Kits.

Remember to watch friend of Dog Words Roo Yori compete on NBC's American Ninja Warrior coming up June 28. There's still time to support Wallace the Pit Bull Foundation's capital campaign to purchase property by pledging to Roo's Ninja for Dogs fundraiser. Details are at RooYori.com which is linked in the description.

Science writer Emily anthis joined us back in February for a fascinating discussion of her book The Great Indoors-The Surprising Science of How Buildings Shape our Behavior, Health and Happiness, which is now available in paperback. Dogs make an appearance in this book and much of her other writing, including her recent columns in the New York Times. A link to her episode is in the description.

Next time on Dog Words we help you find and maybe sell gifts for people who love their dogs with Corey Abramowitz from Bark Yours.

The mission of Rosie Fund is to provide humans with the resources and education they need to give senior and harder-to-adopt dogs a better life. We thank you for joining our mission.

Joining us from Gwynedd in North Wales is dog behaviorist and dog trainer Emily Pantoja from Max Canine. Welcome to the show, Emily.

EMILY  3:15 
Good afternoon, Phil. How are you?

PHIL   3:17 
I am doing well. I saw an interview that you did where you talked about dogs coming out of COVID. We're so focused on the shelter at home and how we keep ourselves safe but I really haven't heard other people talking about how this is impacting dogs —not just being in COVID but how do we transition to after COVID? So there's a lot to unpack here. Initially, what are your thoughts on how people are perhaps treating their dogs differently, how this is impacting dogs socialization and behavior being in the shelter at home.

EMILY  3:58 
So this is a huge issue that we're seeing across the dog world at the moment just in terms of training and behavior. A lot of my clients that I've spoken about who got a puppy drawer in lockdown, and they felt a little bit, firstly targeted as being you know, COVID puppy buyers, which is unfortunate because everybody has to be a first time dog owner. I've been a first time dog owner at some point. And what COVID-19 actually did in a positive way, was it readjusted the daily working routine to allow these people that could never previously have a dog to now bring one home into their family and that is a fantastic thing.

PHIL   4:36 
I think it has in a broader sense opened people's eyes to the possibility of what your work relationship can be. Perhaps the traditional five day work week where you're there from nine to five or however you put in your 30, 40, 50 hours doesn't have to be structured the way it always was. If there's stuff you can do remotely, whether it's from home or from your vacation destination, you do that. And if people have gotten used to being around their dogs and their dogs certainly get used to being around them, we don't have to just flip a switch to, "Okay, now this dog is home alone for nine hours every day."

EMILY  5:18 
That's it. And most people that I speak to, they've had dogs in the past, for example, that dog has always been used to if they've worked full time, from day dot, unless they've booked a little bit of time off work, which I recommend most people do, but then it's straight away nine hours alone. And that dog, you know, might have the owner popping back halfway through the working day, or they might have a dog walker come into work for them. But aside that, it's a real baptism of fire, you know, similar to bringing a puppy home and the first night leaving that puppy in a crate, for example, on their own to sleep for eight hours. It's a similar kind of thing. But, like you said, Phil, with this new kind of working routine — and I absolutely champion it, I think it's fantastic — what we aren't getting is we're not getting kind of these targeted times where the dog can have some alone time, hence, where the issues are starting to really form and I'm seeing it a lot.

PHIL   6:10 
Dogs aren't just this tool to make us feel better, our companion. We have a responsibility to them as well. Speaking of which, my dog has announced she wants to come inside and join us. So one second, let me take care of Peaches.

EMILY  6:27 
No problem.

PHIL   6:35 
Okay, little sidebar here.

EMILY  6:37 
Np problem at all.

PHIL   6:38 
When Peaches is ready to come in, she usually just walks up to the sliding doors on the deck and waits for a moment, expecting us to notice her, which we usually do and we let her in. And if she has to howl a couple times, or in this case more than a couple times to announce her intentions, when she comes in, instead of just hopping in and then going to get a drink of water, laying down in the sun, she has her tail up and has this very purposeful march all around the house checking things out like, like in the movies when the police come to the door of the person who has a home invasion and the perpetrator is behind the door telling them, "Don't do anything stupid." So she suspects I've been held against my will because that's the only reason that I wouldn't immediately come to the door. So she has to come in and make sure there's not an intruder, everything is safe.

EMILY  7:33 
 She's got a pistol out. Pistol drawn.

PHIL   7:34 
She's, oh yeah, she's got one chambered. She's ready to go.

EMILY  7:39 
Brilliant.

PHIL   7:40 
So we've put her at ease. So now back to what I find is fascinating. This perspective that not only do we need to take care of our dogs by feeding them, giving them shelter, providing the right sleeping accommodations, regular vet visits, there's also this emotional mental responsibility we have to make sure that they can de-stress. And for a lot of dogs that's time alone.

EMILY  8:10 
Absolutely.

PHIL   8:10 
Because they they're very focused on us when they're around us. Most dogs are.

EMILY  8:14 
Yeah, so instead of these days using the word "socializing" — because a lot of people are focused on their dogs lack of socialization currently due to COVID — what I like to use instead is the word "normalizing." So when we see things, for example, livestock, sheep, cows walking through a field, we actually want to normalize their presence. Similarly, what I want to do for my dog, and what I want to teach people to do is normalize our absence. So socialization, for example, isn't really applicable in terms of a dog being left alone but normalization is.

PHIL   8:49 
And there's a connotation with socialization, you think of social interaction. So you want to make sure the dog has at play behavior and gets along well with other dogs and isn't dog reactive or aggressive. But that's just a small part of their lives.

EMILY  9:04 
And it's a very small part of socialization. Socialization is broad brush. I mean, I don't know what the rules are out in the States but it might be as simple as your dog learning to travel on the train. That's socialization with socializing the dog with the travel on the train. It could be walking down the road, and being okay with an HGV lorry driving past or a big wagon. Or it could be socializing them to the postman arriving at the house or friends and family arriving for dinner. It's a whole broad brush. And as you said before, we have a moral obligation and a responsibility to not only care for the physical health but also the mental well being of our pets. And let alone the dangerous dogs acts you know where we have a moral obligation but also a legal obligation to protect the public from any trauma. We also have an obligation to our pets, I think, to bring them up to be balanced and well-rounded.

PHIL   9:56 
Yeah. You don't want to raise a child to be completely dependant on you.

EMILY  10:01 
Exactly.

PHIL   10:01 
You raise a child to be able to make good decisions when you're not around. To be accountable.To understand boundaries and rules. You're not gonna get the dog to the same level as, you know, an 18 year old or most 18 year olds. But still, you need to train them to have that confidence, that independence, to not be completely stressed out to have that anxiety if you're not in their line of sight.

EMILY  10:31 
Absolutely. And it really is a huge issue. But I don't know why this issue is so prevalent now as opposed to 10 years ago. And yes, COVID has an impact because like I said, most people have been able to start working from home which has meant that dogs don't have any absence. But then I would be asking myself the question, I need to create the absence. If I don't naturally get it by virtue of my job, then I need to start to create absences, be that putting my pup in another room to sleep whilst I come and record a podcast with Phil Hatterman on Rosie Fund, for example. And that's actually what my dog's doing right now. Because albeit, yes, she is my partner in crime. She is my stooge dog and I use her for a lot of my cases with other dogs. She also has to have her alone time away from me. And that's just as crucial as my alone time away from her. She needs time to relax, time to unwind and time away from a human companion. Really important.

PHIL   11:32 
I'm going to brag a little bit, because even though I sound like I'm enabling Peaches by accommodating her schedule. I let her in.She did her sweep of the house. And now she is several rooms away not making a peep. She's done her job.

EMILY  11:52 
Brilliant.

PHIL   11:52 
She doesn't need to be in here with me. But she's where she wants to be. So I'm proud that we've accomplished that with her. I encourage our listeners to check out an interview we did with author Mark Cushing last October on the release of his book Pet Nation-The Love Affair that Changed America — and it's not too late to get it in hardcover, but it's also coming out in paperback in a couple months. So we'll try to get him back on for that. But he talks about how quickly the United States — and I think this is also true in Europe — we've evolved from a culture where people have pets to where pets are very literally part of the family. You don't just take care of your pet the way we did when I was a kid, which is if you were going on vacation, and I grew up on a farm, you would just make sure that a friend or relative would come by once a day, every other day, just to make sure that your dog was okay and put some food out for it. Because on the farm, it had plenty of access to water with the waterers that were there for the livestock. And really, you didn't worry about the dog. Now, you plan a vacation and you check to see what hotels and what restaurants and what entertainment venues will accommodate a pet. And what boarding there's available at your destination, not just boarding your pet while you're gone at home, taking with you and boarding it for the afternoon or the day while you do other things. And it's I think a pendulum that has swung too far. It's they're a part of our family, yes. But they're not an infant. They're still a dog. They don't need constant attention. You don't have to feel guilty if you leave your dog alone for a day or two with another caregiver.

EMILY  13:49 
Phil, would you like a job? 'Cause I really do have a job convincing some of my clients that despite what they might think the dog that they've brought into their family is, yes, it's a family member, but it's not your child. And I really, you know, try and discourage people from referring to their dogs as their furbabies, as their children. And it's just that. I think I've seen an exponential rise over the past decade in the commercialization of pet ownership. So as you said, growing up on a farm owning dogs is a part of farm life, whether they helped out with cattle and sheep, or they helped out in terms of just a protective stance on the farm. And you cared for them. You gave them the required nutrition. You gave them the required healthcare and, you know, an attention and socialization that they needed but that was the extent of it. Now in the UK, we have things, we have dog friendly hotel websites. There's a dog friendly website whereby you can search local pubs, cafes. Most of the places that you visit will have a sign in the door and shops, outlets, pubs, bars, coffee shops, we are dog-friendly. And yes, I understand that. And it's great that people can start to integrate their dogs into everything we do. But as I said before, it's so important that they get the time away from us more than us being away from them they need time away from us. More than anything, it's a really prevalent issue. We've gone kind of whole hog. And just drawing back what I said on the commercialization of the canine world. 10 years ago, maybe more, I never saw a dog walked on a harness, a full body harness. The traditional method of walking a dog, you know, a dog would wear a collar with an identity tag, and you just clip a lead on and off you go. But all of a sudden now, these kind of impressionable, novice, new dog owners are being an almost I feel conned into, "Buy this! You must buy this harness. It's 40 pounds. Because it will make your life so much easier. And you must buy this bit of equipment. And you must put this jacket on your dog to keep them warm during your walk. And you must put these shoes on your dog whilst climbing mountains to protect their paws." And things like that. Now, I'm not negating the importance of good health care. But what I am questioning is the relevance of a dog wearing a jacket. And it's actually quite damaging. I've done a bit of study into it. I don't know if we are becoming a little bit too over the top in terms of what we're creating for dogs. But it's very much a commercial entity, I think now.

PHIL   16:29 
The analogy I would use — as far as the stress break — is you think about a spouse who's a caregiver for their invalid partner and is always giving of themselves to this person they love who now is in failing health. And they neglect taking care of themselves. They don't recognize the importance of de-stressing and letting someone else come in for a while. And I look at that caregiver as the dog. That we think of we're the dog's caregiver. But when we're around the dog, I think they're so focused on us that they have, I would say, a caregiver energy that whatever hormones are being released in their body, whatever mental focus is required of a caregiver, that's what's going on with the dog when they're around us because they are so interested in, "What are you doing? Where are we going? Are you going to feed me? Are we going to play?" And not to have a moment of not thinking about us doesn't give them a chance to recharge, to stop that hormone production and then have the recovery hormones released. They need that. And then as far as commercialization, I'll admit that my wife and I are guilty of that.

EMILY  17:48 
Me, too.

PHIL   17:48 
That we buy things that will look cute on our dog show like that. And we do try to rationalize the coats we put on her because she's a very light fur pit. That she has like almost no fur on her belly. A very thin coat. And in Kansas City, Missouri, it gets pretty cold. It gets down to 20 below Celsius. And for our American listeners, I'll let you do the math. We're so used to making everyone in Europe do the math when we talk in Fahrenheit, but you know how cold it gets in Kansas City if you're in the United States. And so you feel like yeah, we need that extra layer. We need boots to keep ice out of her toes. But I do see people who I feel take that to another level that makes me uncomfortable. And I'm someone who buys coats for my dog. And, but but tries to apply it practically. And she doesn't wear them all the time. And if it's above freezing, as long as there's not howling cold wind we don't put a coat on her because we think she would prefer to be in the elements, to be a dog, to be able to roll in the grass without a coat between her and the ground and just be a dog and paw at the dirt when she finds a scent that she likes without having a boot or a sock on.

EMILY  19:05 
I'll explain, too, really quickly. I do understand. And I have this conversation with my clients, you know. I've got a client with an Italian Greyhound. And if you know the Italian Greyhound, you'd know that they are an incredibly fine-coated hot blooded sighthound. And they do need a little extra protection from the cold. I completely understand that. What I was questioning was whether your golden retriever, for example, needed to wear a Barbour jacket. And there's a method behind my madness for those people that have you know, just questioning, "Well, I want my dog to stay warm." What did we do 20 years ago and what did those very breeds of dogs do 20 years ago? Because the weather hasn't changed. In fact, with global warming, we're actually getting warmer temperatures.

PHIL   19:48 
Yeah. Fewer coats!

EMILY  19:48 
What were the dogs doing before the jackets? But just to go back to a canine behavioral perspective. Because we don't have to worry about opinions too much. But just from my mind and from my point of view. The problem with wearing a coat for a dog is another dog's perception of your dog. So when I try and explain this to clients when I say, "What must another dog think of your dog when it waddles over in a jacket like mine? That not only changes the appearance of your dog, it changes the silhouette, it changes the shape of your dog, it changes their gait, and the way they move dependent on how it fastens, similar with the harness. When they're fastened to the body, they change the movement of the dog. Not only that, you actually remove the key functional area of what a dog requires. And that is the scents. If you've got your dog covered in polyester with, you know, a tail flap over its tail to cover him from all the elements, how does he smell to another dog? And what we're doing is removing away all the natural processes that a dog should be encouraged to do. And actually, we could encourage some slightly odd behaviors between our animals. And I've seen it before myself when dogs have been aversive to another animal wearing a coat because they just don't know what it is, Phil. That is my kind of behavioral slant on it. I'm not saying dogs can't wear jackets. I'm just saying just think in terms of interaction what the effect might be for your particular dog.

PHIL   21:16 
It's a choice and it should be a rational one, not an emotional one. It shouldn't be, "I want my dog to look cute." It should be, "Is there a practical need that is being addressed?"

EMILY  21:27 
As I said before, if you've got a greyhound, just as an example, Italian Greyhound Whippet type, I understand that those dogs might require an extra layer, especially, you know, during the colder months. But I would still be making big considerations before I decided to dress my dog up in clothes. Put it that way.

PHIL   21:48 
Well, you make a great point, which I've never considered. The harness changing the gait, the covering changing the way scent is exchanged. I think that's a perfect setup for then my next question, which is masking that has been part of shelter at home. That certainly changes our appearance and the way dogs can read us. Have you seen that impacting both dogs that are pre-COVID dogs that were used to reading faces and then the COVID puppies who don't know a world before masks?

EMILY  22:28 
You'll have heard it countless times in the past as dog owners yourselves, you know. Have you ever heard people say, "Oh, my dog doesn't like people in high visibility jackets." Or, "My dog doesn't like men wearing baseball caps." Or, "If you're wearing a big coat, she might bark at you." And I've worked with clients like that in the past. So the mask concept for me dealing with the behavior is no change for me. But what I am making my clients aware of and, for example, I spoke with a breeder the other day, and she hadn't actually considered the impact that COVID could have on a litter of puppies. And after us having a conversation about face masks, one of the measures that she's decided to introduce as a responsible breeder, is that she's going to spend some time wearing face masks around the puppy. Because in the crucial formative stages of the brain development, the cognitive development of a puppy, between the ages of three and 16 weeks, a really, really crucial stage. And obviously the breeder has responsibility for perhaps five of those weeks. And when we create neural pathways, so we're exposing the dogs to sights, sounds, smells, the washing machine, other people, noises, she's also now going to introduce the concept of face masks to those dogs so that when they do go off to their new homes, it's not a completely new thing. So I think that's a really responsible thing for a breeder to do to consider the future of our world, if you like. The fact that COVID will be with us to stay, I imagine. And what we have to do is learn to operate within it and manage it as opposed to work against it. So there are definitely some issues and you know, where possible when greeting dogs I do, within reason, try to remove my mask. Because dogs read our faces. They read our expressions. If you've ever smiled at your dog, you'll watch their change in body language, as opposed to you know, if you have a frowny, sad face. Yeah, it's definitely one to consider. And that's one for breeders out there. And perhaps those that work in rescue centers, they might not be as used to the mask environment. So you know, when we were walking down a rescue center aisle, and we're looking at dogs whilst wearing masks, that dog that normally might come off as quite friendly, might look a bit withdrawn and concerned because they can't see half of your face. So there is a big implication.

PHIL   24:50 
While we're talking about the adoption experience, whether it's in a shelter, with the rescue group, or with a breeder. It's concerning how much of an impulse buy it can be when someone adopts a dog. And I'm not just talking about the decision to adopt a dog, but specifically, which dog is a fit for your family, for your lifestyle. Again, there are breed tendencies, like we talked about with a bloodhound, that if you can't take a leisurely walk that allows the dog to do its sniffing, maybe that's not the right dog for you. I think there's people who want a dog but then don't know how to find the right dog. Or even realize there is a right dog. It's not just a dog is a dog is a dog.

EMILY  25:41 
I think this draws back to one of the things I spoke to a journalist about recently. And that's mainly during the COVID 19 pandemic, I think falls down to a lot of breeder responsibility. So don't forget, there are a lot of first time puppy and dog owners during the COVID 19 pandemic. And that's great to see. Because as I said, working patterns have changed. What I've found, though, is that a lot of breeders have exploited the pandemic as such. And I wouldn't like to call them breeders because it tars people with quite a negative brush. But people that are breeding dogs for profit to make a lot of money and just farming them out to families who are demanding them. So I'm seeing a lot of kind of fashionable working type breeds, working cocker spaniels, working lines of Border Collies. Even working lines of what you will know as American type Labradors. And these are working dogs. So what we suggest, you know, and there's a reason that we use cocker spaniel and Springer spaniels and Labrador retrievers in the military, and in border force, because they are bred to do a job. Now, what they weren't bred to do, necessarily, in a novice home was to exist in a very hectic family of five young children with two adults who work full time, and you know, have a hell of a lot of responsibility just to keep those five human beings alive. And these are the people I'm finding are struggling. And these are also the people who thought with the best intentions, "Let's bring a young spaniel puppy home." But now we are really, really struggling to give this dog what it needs. And they are kind of the perception to the experienced dog owner is that these people are irresponsible. But actually my question to you would be, "Is it these guys? Or is it the breeder?" Because as a breeder, I would be doing my research. I'm not a breeder, and I never will be. But if I was breeding a litter of working, or American type Labrador puppies, the first thing I'd be doing is home checks. And whether that's physical now that we can or whether that was remotely via what we're doing on Zoom here. Or I'd be asking questions about working lifestyles. I'd be asking what they do in their spare time, the age of their children. Because like it or not, it's really difficult to bring up an 18 month old baby, a two year old, and a four year old, coach them through life in school, whilst trying to develop a very high energy working type of dog. There are dogs out there, you know. Our rescue centers are full of older dogs that perhaps would really fit the bill. You know, I always say to people, "Why did you go for a Rhodesian Ridgeback when you don't particularly like walking? You had the perfect opportunity to rescue an eight month old Greyhound who perhaps would be more content with a 20 minute walk around the block and to lays on the sofa with you all evening." And it's just about making informed decisions because there isn't really an excuse, because all the information is there. And it's free. You only have to go on the internet on social media to speak to rescue centers, vets, people like myself, trainers and behaviorists and say, "Do you think this is the right dog for me?" And those people would welcome you with open arms.

PHIL   28:59 
Well, especially a rescue group or a shelter. The last thing they want is to see you again in two months bringing that dog back. They want that dog to go to its forever home. So if you are up front with them, they will be up front with you and try to get that dog in the best situation. Worst case scenario for a shelter or rescue group isn't the person who comes back in two months to return the dog because this is not a fit. The worst case scenario is the person who doesn't come back with that dog and just neglects it. That's even worse. "This is not a fit. But I'm just going to feed this dog until it gets old and dies." Which is heartbreaking. I'd rather you bring it back. But let's get it right in the first place. Let's find a fit before you leave the shelter, before you leave the breeder. And, like you said, there's no excuse for not doing your research. It's easier now in the information age than it's ever been.

EMILY  30:02 
And really, you know, if I wasn't being given a Spanish Inquisition either by a rescue center or a breeder, I'd walk away. And you know, asking me every question under the sun about my background, what I like to do in my spare time, my setup, my working lifestyle, then for sure they don't care about what, what the puppies are doing. And it's that very breed of the one that has negated to perform certain health tests and temperament testing before breeding two dogs. They're the people that have actually bothered to socialize those puppies during those crucial formative weeks we spoke about before. What is the people that are backyard breeding for money, and they've just kind of thrown the dogs in sheds until we can get rid of them at seven weeks and make a nice profit. So one of my, like, my key bits of advice for listeners, and not so much the rescue fraternity, but certainly those that are looking to go to a breeder would be that you really need to feel like you've been quizzed to death. Don't worry if they offend you, and they will offend you if they care.

PHIL   31:04 
I teach yoga for golfers. And I encourage everyone I work with to get golf instruction. Because I work on the biomechanics of the body that will allow you to make an efficient, repeatable swing and maximize your potential. But you still need to have the right fundamentals. As far as stance grip, address all of that. And I tell them you can go to...

EMILY  31:26 
Thoracic flexibility.

PHIL   31:27 
Yeah! You can go to an instructor I recommend. But if you go to someone else and they say, "Oh, yeah, I can get your swing in shape in a couple sessions, or I can lower your score, absolutely." Don't walk, run away from that instructor. You want an instructor who's going to tell you, just like I was saying earlier about correcting dog behavior takes time, takes commitment. Building a golf swing takes time and commitment. And if your instructor isn't saying, "If you're willing to put in the time and the commitment, I will make you a better golfer. Your score will come down if you learn course management. But I will give you the potential for that. But I'm not making any promises that this is going to be easy. And there definitely isn't a magic move that's gonna fix your swing." You want that honest instructor. Because that's the only way you're going to improve. And you want that dog breeder, that rescue group, that shelter that is going to have a conversation with you. That's the way you know that they care.

EMILY  32:32 
It's exactly the same with dog trainers, Phil. Because I always have to manage clients' expectations. I can give you the tools. Just like you could give the tools to help improve a golf swing. Or you could give somebody the knowledge of course management. And I can give people what to do and show them. But then it's down to them to take it up and progress and put the work in after I've left them for example to then really, to get things going to really sharpen their swing, if you like.

PHIL   33:01 
And a golf instructor or a dog trainer or a yoga instructor doesn't want the person who's going to be a client for a session or two and then leave. Because even though they've paid you, they're bad word of mouth. They're gonna tell people, "Eh, it didn't work. That person's no good." Even though it's the fault of the client that didn't do the work. You're the one whose reputation is on the line.

EMILY  33:29 
And that's why I'm really quite choice with who I work with now. Because if I get an inkling that somebody just wants me to train their dog, I run to the hills. Because absolutely I can train their dog. But they can't carry on, I have no confidence that that's going to be a success story. That way, then Max Canine success stories reduce. So for me...

PHIL   33:51 
Someone's gonna ask them, "Why is your dog a hot mess?"

"I don't know. I took it to Max Canine."

It's like, "Well, I'm definitely not taking my dog there."

EMILY  33:59 
Exactly. So now it's kind of I'm at a stage, really, in my career and my calendar, where I can be choice. Believe me, I want to help every person with every dog. But actually, if I have no confidence that person wants to make a change that they just want to pay me to do it. I run to the hills.

PHIL   34:18 
And that's stealing time from someone who does want to make the commitment.

EMILY  34:23 
Exactly. Exactly.

PHIL   34:26 
I'd like to talk a little bit about your background. That you are a dog trainer, behaviorist. How did you come to that in life? Have you always been a dog person? Did you always want to be someone who worked with animals?

EMILY  34:41 
I have always been a dog person. And what you might find hard to believe as I suppose as a listener, as an individual is that I didn't grow up with dogs. And dogs were never part of our upbringing or our family life. And the reason for that was that my parents both worked incredibly long hours. And we were a very busy family. And we simply made the judgment that we didn't have time. Albeit we all loved animals. We didn't have the time to bring a dog up the way they should be brought up. So I spent my childhood dog walking for other people. And it really went from there. My background isn't totally with dogs. I joined the British Army at 20 years old. I went on to serve for 10 years as a commissioned officer. I commissioned for the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst. And then I went on to serve in the British Army. I set up what was known as Em's Dog Services back in 2012. And I worked that job on the side of the British Army. And through the British Army, again, a lot of experience working with people, which is the main element of what I do now. Yes, there's an understanding of dogs and I have a lot of experience and a lot of credibility and technical competence working with dogs. But the human element is so important because not every dog handler is the same. So the kind of the experiences I drew from working in the army for a number of years really led me to where I am today, you know. It didn't define me. But it definitely helped to form me. I started studying in my spare time with the Cambridge Institute of Dog Behavior and Training, who are fantastically recognized organization in the UK that cover all aspects of dog behavior. And then I went on to become registered with the Canine and Feline Behavior Association. Although we don't have a governing body, as such, in the behavioral world. But these guys really are the pinnacle authority for behavior consultation. And the process to become recognized as a member is rigorous. And it's probably one of the hardest inquisitions, considering my background, I've ever been to in my life. And it was one that I cared about...

PHIL   36:51 
Coming from someone who served in the military to make that statement is no...

EMILY  36:56 
Yeah. Bold.

PHIL   36:57 
Yeah. That's very bold.

EMILY  36:58 
Yeah, and it was. And don't get me wrong. My service in the British Army is some of the best years in my life. Some of the hardest. But some of the best. But I must say that what I'm doing now is what I've cared about my entire life. Dogs are my life. The buzz, the feeling I get when I walk away from a client, knowing that things have changed, is just incredible. I was working with a family today who'd rescued a shepherd cross, who had issues with aggression due to a terrible background and upbringing that I won't mention now. And he had terrible issues with men and awful problems with other dogs. And the changes that we saw today, and the confidence that we instilled in the owners just made me real emotional during the session and I actually teared up. And they offered me a tissue. And I said, "You know that that's only ever happened once before." But then it really hit me when I was driving home that how much I love doing what I do, not only with dogs, but to change the human perception of what their dog's perhaps thinking. And, you know, everybody that calls me are in the right place, and they're doing the right thing, because they've reached out. And a lot of people just give up. Why we have so many dogs in rescue, because people just give up. And I think if we regulated my industry more, and there were people out there that could help, you know. And people can see me through pet insurance, which is what the CFDA is great for. Because, again, it's an unregulated world. So people are worried about the cost of seeing a behaviorist for example. And that might put them off because the easier option is just to say, "I relinquish my dog to rescue." But these people made the effort. They called me. We work together. And we made a difference between us. They say if you do what you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life, and I definitely don't ever work.

PHIL   38:55 
I agree with that. And I think part of the reason that people will give up on a dog is that there's this perception that a German Shepherd has these characteristics. A Border Collie has these characteristics. An Italian Greyhound has these characteristics. And so if your dog is behaving a certain way, people will accept that, "That's just how that breed is. And I can't deal with that. So I need to give it up." Instead of recognizing this is a learned behavior that is not part of the breed. This aggression or reactivity, it can be addressed. Certainly there are things that are breed specific. "My bloodhound is always sniffing on walks. I can't get him to keep his head up." It's like well, you adopted a hound. That's what they do. But it being aggressive towards other dogs? We can work on that. And it is work. It's not a trainer saying, "Well' you know you're holding the leash wrong. There you go." Well, no, there's some behaviors that need to be addressed. And you need to be consistent about how you respond to those. And that's going to take some time and commitment. But if you love your dog, we can figure this out and come up with a solution.

EMILY  40:16 
Absolutely. Again, would you like a job? Are you sure you don't want a job?

PHIL   40:20 
I would love to visit Wales. I know Peaches would have to be quarantined...

EMILY  40:23 
You'll love it.

PHIL   40:23 
...and my wife quit her job. But we'll figure it out. We'll talk off air to figure out how we can make this happen.

EMILY  40:30 
Any time!

PHIL   40:30 
And I think a great point you made was that in the military you learned how to deal with people. And someone who says, "I'm not a people person so I'm gonna to work with dogs or animals." There are some things you can do. But being a trainer or behaviorist is not one of them. Because you have to work with that pet's humans.

EMILY  40:51 
People.

PHIL   40:51 
And the people have to often hear things that are tough to hear. Not about the dog, but about themselves.

EMILY  40:58 
Themselves.

PHIL   40:58 
And there are things you are doing that if you want to make a change in this dog, you're going to have to make a change in yourself.

EMILY  41:05 
I couldn't agree more. A hell of a lot of what I do is working with people. It's the human element. And I've been to hundreds of clients now. And I've seen everything. And don't forget, I'm working with people in their homes some of the time and not always coming to our headquarters. And you don't realize the extent to which a dog can cause stress on a family. And we're talking marital breakdowns. People leaving. People have become so anxious about their dog's behavior that then they don't leave the house anymore. And what's so important about what I do is tailoring what I teach and tailoring my behavior modification plans to suit the person. Because if I had a one size fits all method, it may work for you, Phil, but it might not work for your next door neighbor with their dog because their style changes. Not everybody is a confident leader figure. And you can't teach leadership, as they tell us at the Royal Military Academy. You can't teach leadership. You can teach management. And people can manage a dog's behavior because a lot of people do manage behaviors for their entire lives. But you can't teach somebody to be a leader. And what dogs need is confident leadership. Now I can help people and I can coach them into being better leaders. But if they don't have it in the first place, sometimes it's difficult. And they're the people that I see having problems with dogs. Because when a dog sees a gap he's gonna jump into it. Now, I'm not saying that you have to be a dominating overly assertive character with dogs. Because in a lot of cases it really isn't required.

PHIL   42:42 
And if people just look into their past, who are the best leaders that you have followed, whether it was a teacher, a coach, a manager, a business owner? Was it the person who was obnoxiously domineering and unyielding? Or it was the person who had emotional intelligence who could set the right tone for, "This is our environment and I'm gonna help you thrive in this environment. I'm gonna support you but I'm also going to protect you." That's not a domineering, mean spirited, narcissistic leadership. And that's not leadership at all, to be narcissistic and domineering.

EMILY  43:23 
And contrary to some common belief, a lot of dogs don't necessarily need that autocratic style of leadership, that dominant character, that type of leadership that's almost obtained through fear. And if you compare the human element, and I know dogs aren't humans, but as you said just then, we want to follow the quietly confident person who says, "Follow me. I've got your back." And looking back to the time I served in the army, they were the people that I wanted to follow. But the people that shouted and tried to gain respect through verbalizing their demands are the people I least wanted to follow. And I say this to clients every day. The less verbal and vocal you can be with dogs and the more you can encourage them to do what you want through body language through leadership. And I know that sounds like an odd thing to say. But you don't have to tell your dog to sit to get them to sit is what I'm saying. You don't have to scream at your dog to get them to recall to you. And you certainly don't have to get them to walk on the lead by pulling them. There are elements and ways of achieving a lot of things. But what my point I'm trying to make is you don't have to be an overly vocal character to get a leadership function with you and your dog.

PHIL   44:41 
Well, another self-serving plug that I'm going to make is our interview with Dr. Ellen Furlong, who's a dog behavior researcher. We've had her on a couple times. But the first time we had her on from Illinois Wesleyan University was back in December. And one of the things that she talked about is two misconceptions that people have about dogs is one, just like you said, that they need an alpha who's this dominant leader and that there's this pack structure and the dog has to know, "Who's number one? Who's number two? Who's number three? Who's number four?" They just need someone who is calmly in charge. They — it doesn't need to be this very structured hierarchy. And the other misconception is that the reason people think that is because dogs used to be wolves and so it needs to function like a wolf pack. Well, the misconception is, wolf packs aren't like that either.

EMILY  45:46 
Yes, wolf packs aren't like that either. But also, evolution has happened since our cockapoo was a wolf. Evolution has happened since our dogs were wolves and they were wandering around in the mountains together. You know, similarly to what your author mentioned in her writing, dogs aren't overly vocal with each other. Just like you said before, aggression within dogs is not innate. So with a German Shepherd, they may have a tendency to want to herd and guard. Or you might have a bloodhound, like you said, that's interested in scenting everything. But aggression, for example, is not innate. But also vocalization is not innate. And that's what films have led us to believe. When we see wolves in the wild, all we see is them howling and communicating through voice. But actually, if you watch a wolf in the wild, and if you watch a wolf pack, there's very little vocalization. Similarly, if you watch a balanced group of dogs, and I'm not saying a brand new pack of unsocialized dogs post-COVID. And saying a balanced pack of socialized dogs, there's no vocal. There's a lot of sniffing. There's a lot of body language. There might be a little bit of assertive behavior. But there's no vocalization. So I asked my clients the same question, "Could we obtain the leadership of our dog through a similar function, i.e., non-vocal?" Because all I'm saying to my dog when I'm neurotic, and I'm high pitched, and I'm squealing about what I want them to do, all I'm saying is I'm completely out of control. And I say every day, I need you to be in control without being controlling, because they're two very different things.

PHIL   47:26 
You've given our listeners, I think, a lot to think about. And certainly, I think this is going to help them become better, not just dog owners, but dog lovers. Because it's the interaction with all dogs, not just your own, that is part of our current culture. That again, you see dogs everywhere. Just knowing how to behave around a dog. Just being calm. Not freaking out. Not thinking that your vocalization is going to convince them to behave a certain way. Doesn't work with people. Doesn't work with dogs. Emily, I would love to have you on again to talk more about dog behavior and any advice you have. For our listeners, this has been very enlightening and very fun. Emily Pantoja, dog trainer and behaviourist with Max Canine. MaxCanine.co.uk will be linked in the description for this episode. And you can contact her if you have more questions. And certainly if you are anywhere near Gwynedd, North Wales, there is no one better to talk to you about dog behavior than Emily. Thank you so much for joining us today.

EMILY  48:42 
My absolute pleasure. And just further to what you said, I offer advice. If ever anybody needs it, or they just need to speak to somebody about a problem they've got with their dog or a problem they've got with being a dog's leader, just get in touch. Happy to chat.

PHIL   48:57 
Thank you again.

EMILY  48:59 
Thank you.

PHIL   49:06 
I'm Phil Hatterman and you've been listening to Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund.

Thank you to dog trainer and behaviourist Emily Pantoja of Max Canine for joining us today. Check out her website, MaxCanine.co.uk and follow her on Facebook and Instagram. All are linked in the description. There are also links to the Dog Words episodes we referenced in today's interview. If you find an old episode you like, be sure to share it with your friends.

Next time on Dog Words, we help you find and maybe sell gifts for people who love their dogs with Corey Abramowitz from Bark Yours.

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