0235: The Grooming Project with Jarrod Sanderson

The Grooming Project’s COO Jarrod Sanderson updates on what they’ve accomplished and their exciting future. Be a part of their virtual gala Best In Show House Party Event October 16th, 2021.

The Grooming Project online:
TheGroomingProject.org
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From the Dog Words archives:
0109: The Grooming Project Changes Lives with Betty Jean Curran
0137: Pet Nation with Author Mark Cushing
0216: Mixed Mutt Creamery with Sherri Corwin is relocating to 2001 Walnut Street in Kansas City’s Crossroads District on October 1.

Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant is on AmazonSmile.

Celebrate 5 years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate at RosieFund.org or through our Facebook page. You can contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Also check out our page on BarkYours, the online mall with gifts for people who love their dogs.

Music for this episode is provided by alternative string duo, The Wires. Visit them at TheWires.info. Learn fiddle and cello-fiddle online — even if you've never played before — from Laurel Morgan Parks and Sascha Groshang at FiddleLife.com. Join The Wires as they explore new music on their show Sound Currents.

The transcript for this episode is available on the Dog Words Buzzsprout page: Buzzsprout.com/840565.

Make a donation at RosieFund.org or through our Facebook page. You can contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Also check out our page on BarkYours, the online mall with gifts for people who love their dogs.

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Transcript

JARROD  0:00 
I think that's what we want to be participating in, is things that improve our communities long term, and that are worth doing. And so I think the conventional wisdom that we can't afford to do these things, it's actually the opposite. We can't afford to not do these things.

PHIL   0:19 
I'm Phil Hatterman and this is Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund,.

Today, The Grooming Project Chief Operating Officer, Jarrod Sanderson talks about the opportunity to help vulnerable populations thanks to our love for dogs.

If you're new to Dog Words, in each episode, we explore the world of dog care and companionship. "We save each other," is the motto of Rosie Fund, which simply means the more we do for dogs, the more they do for us, and they already do a lot.

If you love dogs, you'll love Dog Words. We welcome your comments, questions and suggestions. Go to the podcast page at RosieFund.org to share your thoughts. Please download, follow, rate, and most importantly, share Dog Words.

Celebrate five years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website, buying a t-shirt at bonfire.com, or buying our notecards and shirts on BarkYours.com. Links are in the description. Your donations and purchases help fund the Rosie Life Starter Kits that make sure these senior and harder-to-adopt dogs have some of the items they'll need in their forever home.

Please follow Rosie Fund on social media. Subscribe to the free Rosie Fund YouTube channel that offers great videos of Rosie, Peaches, and shelter dogs, including some exclusive content, like the sweet KC Pet Project dog featured in our latest post.

Next time on Dog Words we're joined by Peggy Gibbon, the Director of Canine Development at The Seeing Eye, the world's oldest training school of service dogs for the blind.

The mission of Rosie Fund is to provide humans with the resources and education they need to give senior and harder-to-adopt dogs a better life. We thank you for joining our mission.

I'm pleased to welcome The Grooming Project's Chief Operating Officer Jarrod Sanderson to Dog Words. Welcome, Jarrod.

JARROD  2:13 
Yeah, thank you. I'm happy to be here.

PHIL   2:14 
Glad to have The Grooming Project back. We had an interview about 30 years ago. I think it was with The Grooming Project. I was actually on site for that interview. And some things have changed since then. I'll link to that interview in the description. How have you guys been surviving down there at The Grooming Project, Jarrod?

JARROD  2:36 
You know, we've been really fortunate. We have some really, really great supporters who understand what we're doing. And they allow us to be flexible. They kind of grow with us. So you know, it's this strange experience where everybody's experienced throughout the pandemic has been uniquely different. And so the lived experience just bifurcates in a lot of different directions. Our students, they bear the brunt, I think, of this more than most people because they're in a vulnerable population already.

PHIL   3:02 
That's how they ended up coming to The Grooming Project because it was an opportunity for them to pivot in their lives. And then to have this thrown at them on top of whatever else they might be dealing with.

JARROD  3:14 
Yeah, getting to the site, getting to the training school is always the biggest barrier. Once people are there, generally they're locked in and they're ready to go, at least for that time. And the ever changing world created by that pandemic backdrop has just increased the things that cause people to not be able to be there. Their kids are sick or their school is quarantined, or their daycare is quarantined, and so they have to be home now. And so yeah, I mean, that's I think on the the student front, it's all of those things rolled into one. The organization, we've been fortunate, I mean, we've been fortunate to have the support we need to pivot. We had a stretch where we just became almost entirely emergency assistance for our students, when we couldn't open when we found out it's really impossible to do dog grooming training virtually. So you really need the dog and the people there. So there was a stretch there where we really just became an emergency assistance support for our students to try to help them maintain until we could reopen. Then once we did, we got our students back, followed all the precautions that we could to keep everybody safe in the building, and we've been pretty fortunate to be able to return to something like normal business since the initial city wide quarantine was lifted.

PHIL   4:21 
We addressed this in the last interview with The Grooming Project, pretty much the definition of a vulnerable population is that they don't have that margin, that flexibility that someone who is established might have. So if I have a flat tire, there's a half dozen people I can call who have a flexible schedule and come pick me up. I can call roadside assistance. I can get an Uber. The people that I am going to see, I can shoot them a text or an email and they know, "Oh yeah, he's good. He's fine. We can reschedule." But someone who is just trying to keep their job or just trying to get through training or has a deadline for picking up their kids from daycare, that flat tire can be the Jenga block that comes out and tumbles the whole stack.

JARROD  5:12 
Yeah, you just said it, I think that's the most difficult thing to communicate to people who don't have that experience, is how volatile, seemingly simple things are. And this is true for a fair amount of our staff to, except for we see it every day. So we have an understanding of it that maybe is different. But it really is that way. I mean, that most of us grow up with a social fabric of support that is just there. And it's always been there. And so we just take for granted that when we have these things come up they don't ruin our worlds, they don't ruin our lives. They're just a blip on the radar for an hour or two, or we're frustrated during the day, and then we're moving on. But it really is the case that there are a whole lot of people who those things aren't just nuisances. They throw off everything. And it's time because the capacity to get somewhere, especially if you're out by bus, or you have unreliable transportation, it's net revenue margin, too. I mean, I get a flat tire, maybe it's a couple hundred bucks for a new tire. It sucks, but it's not a big deal. But if that meant that I couldn't pay rent, or I couldn't get food, I just couldn't imagine the kind of stress that that creates. Even when it's not present, the backdrop of it being possible, is just a mental turmoil that most of us just don't have to worry about. And our students do. And it's obvious. It's visible.

PHIL   6:28 
We don't live life with certainties, we live it with possibilities. And if your possibilities are, if I'm late for work, I lose my job, then you just give up. You don't even call in that you're going to be late because you know this entry level job has a stack of papers in my boss's drawer that he will pull the next application and someone will be working that job tomorrow. I may not even know what the solution is for a problem that life throws at me. But my lived experience is there are options. And so I look for options. I don't know what the answer is going to be. But I'll make a phone call. I'll check with someone who I think might have experience with this. And I try to resolve it. But if my life's experience is when something goes wrong, things are gonna fall apart. Then you just give up.

JARROD  7:19 
Yeah, I know. I think...

PHIL   7:21 
And there might be lots of resources available to you, but you just don't even know they exist.

JARROD  7:25 
Yep. And this thinking is getting through right now. And so anything that would help long term or create stability six months from now from 12 months from now...

PHIL   7:35 
They don't have that luxury.

JARROD  7:36 
Exactly. Yeah. There's no reason to think about it that way. So, yeah, I think that's one of those just perceptual things that's hard to grasp. Because it is true outside looking in the you know, people who say, "Well, if somebody would just do this and really focus on this for six months or 12 months."

PHIL   7:51 
Why are you driving on bald tires? That's your fault.

JARROD  7:54 
Yep. Yeah. And so but if you're the person who has to endure that six months with zero certainty about if it's going to turn out well for you, then why would you be looking at you know, if I can survive this stretch, then on the other end of that long time when you have to live it? And so yeah, I think that you're you're right on, that's exactly what we're trying to help—separate from the service—trying to help undo that perception in the community. People in this position are there because they've done something wrong, or because they don't work hard. I understand why people see that. Because they put themselves in their shoes and think why won't you just do this?

PHIL   8:28 
Yeah, it's not just enough to give them a marketable skill like grooming if the first time something goes wrong with their job as a groomer, or trying to open a business, that they think, "Well, this is a failure."

JARROD  8:46 
Yep.

PHIL   8:46 
Instead of learning from that setback and using whatever resources they might have or just sticking with it and not giving up, then it doesn't matter how magnificent they are as a groomer...

JARROD  8:59 
Yeah.

PHIL   8:46 
...they're not going to use that skill and they're gonna go back to the life they had. So it's just so important, what you're doing at The Grooming Project, teaching the skills that will allow them to maximize their potential, rather than continuing whatever cycle they're in.

JARROD  9:16 
Yeah, and we see that. We see students that they have this incredible skill set, but it has been used to survive in basically what I would call a secondary market. And so those skills are transferable. But there has to be a trust that they can be transferred without putting oneself in danger. And so something as simple as following instructions. I mean, we have a lot of students who have been hurt badly because they followed someone's instructions. And so when that's your experience, and now you have a supervisor who you don't know...

PHIL   9:44 
Don't trust.

JARROD  9:45 
giving you directives, yeah. Like there's no reason to expect that that's just gonna immediately translate as a safe place until there's been some trust rebuilt in community and society. And so for us, that's step one is to help rebuild that trust first because that person shouldn't let go of those defense mechanisms until they know it is safe. And so yeah, and it may not be safe back when they leave us until they're able to extricate themselves from that volatility. So it's a back and forth. Our grooming instructors and our staff. They're saints for being able to balance this, but our students really are the—I mean, they're the heroes here. Because they're the ones who have to take that trust fall. And it's easy to say it. And it's really, really hard to do it. So, yeah, I'm always amazed at the capacity to move through some of that stuff that I wouldn't be able to get out of bed. I mean, I'd just be a mess trying to deal with all those things. And we have students moving through it with grace. And yeah, it's pretty cool to see.

PHIL   10:39 
We talk about grooming being a marketable skill. I've been wanting to circle back to The Grooming Project, just to see how you guys are doing and I'm glad we finally got connected. But what really lit a fire under me that, "Okay, I have to absolutely contact The Grooming Project," was my wife heard a report on the radio that people are having trouble finding groomers for their pets.

JARROD  11:04 
Yep.

PHIL   11:05 
And I didn't hear the piece. And from what she told me, they really didn't drill down on it other than identifying there's this complaint from people that, "My groomer is booked up. I can't find a groomer." So I'm going to throw out what my theory is why there's a shortage. And if you have more information, I want you to set me straight. I think probably two things happened. There were groomers who shut down because their margins are so thin that they just couldn't keep going when there is the initial shelter at home and you couldn't take your dog to the groomer for a couple months. They couldn't make it through that. So then once you could start taking your dog to a groomer, there are fewer to choose from. The other factor I think is people sheltering at home spending more time with their pet realized, "My pet needs more attention. My pet is a better pet when they are well groomed and cleaned and nails trimmed. And when I'm with my dog 24 hours a day, I notice what they smell like, as opposed to just when I come home, take them for a walk and then ignore them."

JARROD  12:13 
Yeah.

PHIL   12:13 
So spending more time at home I think heightened the need once we were able to access groomers. But then again, not as many groomers available. Does that ring true to you?

JARROD  12:25 
Yeah, I think there's potentially a third factor. And that was as people were staying home or the desire to have a companion animal I think increased and so people who didn't have dogs got them during quarantine. And so now, I mean, you're there and now people are starting to funnel back into offices or back to work. And the dog's still there. And all the services and supports that should be provided to that animal to take care of it are now there, too. And so, yeah, I think it's all those factors that made 2020 kind of a banner year for the pet industry. And all of the projection reports, Morgan Stanley just released a projection for the pet industry through 2030. And it is just exponential growth year after year after year. And especially as millennials and Gen Z kind of move into primary consumer base, in part replacing children with animals. And then the amount of care and support that go towards that animal. There's just more and more of somebody's spending is going towards that. So I think you're right on the first two. And then that third one is that they're just more pet owners, in part because of what we are still going through and just went through.

PHIL   13:34 
We had Mark Cushing, the author of Pet Nation on last fall, talking about the evolution of the relationship between people and pets and the way we care for them. Not only are more people having pets but they're also treating them like you said, "This is my child. So I'm going to get it groomed." Growing up on the farm., if our dog rolled in manure, or got hit by a skunk, then we would fill the tub up with water and wash 'em off. If it was a skunk you get the gallon can of tomato juice and you'd clean 'em up. Otherwise, our dog would hop in the river, hop in a cattle tank and I'm pretty sure we didn't have anything that was called dog shampoo.

JARROD  14:29 
Yeah, yeah.

PHIL   14:30 
Matter of fact, I'll dial that up to I'm 100% sure we didn't have anything called dog shampoo. But now I have at least three different kinds of dog shampoo. And we take our dog to the groomer.

Yep.

That's just for spot cleaning and,  "Oh, she has an appointment next week but she's kind of smelly 'cause she rolled in where the geese are hanging out by the lake on her last walk so we'll tidy her up." But to get her nails done and get cleaned up and think nothing of it, and we're certainly not alone in that. And as far as availability of groomers, the groomer we go to, pre-pandemic I would call and say, "Can you get Peaches in sometime next two or three days?" And they'd say, "Oh, yeah, we can get her in in two days. You can come in the morning, if you wait till afternoon, we can do it the following day and we'll work her in." Now I make the next appointment when I pick her up from this appointment.

JARROD  15:26 
Yep.

PHIL   15:26 
Just to make sure she has one a month out.

JARROD  15:29 
Yep. Yeah, we're in a similar place. I mean, we're booked out at our grooming school on Troost generally at least four weeks, quite often eight weeks, so that when somebody calls, it's generally two months before we can get them scheduled. We have a salon in Lee's Summit that the original genesis of that was to take our graduates and give them an opportunity to learn how to run a business something closer to market rate. We struggle to find grooming help there because it's not just our graduates. We're looking for groomers there, too, to pick up the slack. And so we feel like if anybody should have an inside route to groomers on the hiring side it's us.

PHIL   16:08 
Yeah!

JARROD  16:08 
And we struggle to find groomers there. And so it's just the market right now has exploded. And there's just I mean, that's one of the reasons that The Grooming Project works. Because we don't have to artificially inflate anything. We don't have to try to recreate or infuse into a market that doesn't exist. It's just connecting.

PHIL   16:25 
Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that because I used to work in higher ed. And I'm well aware of many professional programs that are charging a lot of money for people to get a degree or a certification in a job that is not waiting for them.

JARROD  16:47 
Yep.

PHIL   16:47 
Either it's a industry that is changing in such a way that the skills they're getting are not marketable, or it's already saturated.

JARROD  16:57 
Yep.

PHIL   16:57 
You are training somebody to have skills in, as the report you referenced indicated, is continuing to grow for the foreseeable future. Is something that I don't see—and I'm gonna pretend I'm an expert on this—I don't see automation or robotics taking this over. Because even if you could have a robot that was a perfect groomer, I want a human handling my dog.

JARROD  17:29 
Yep.

PHIL   17:30 
So it's a growth market. It's a need. It's not going away. And it has the flexibility of you can work for someone who owns a grooming salon or you can work independently. If you get a airplane maintenance, you know, airframe and powerplant certificate, if they're not hiring locally, you can't say, "Well, I'll just do this out of my garage."

JARROD  17:56 
Yeah.

PHIL   17:56 
Bring your Cessna by. This is something you can do anywhere.

JARROD  18:03 
Yeah, yeah, you can do that in your garage. You can go to people. Mobile grooming is there's I mean, there's obviously a couple of additional challenges there timewise if you've got big distances between your your stops. But yeah, I mean, I think all of this combined, you know, I think every generation probably looks back. And, you know, you look back at people 50 or 60 years ago, and you think, on some areas, like, "What were they doing?" And the treatment of animals, I think could be one of those things for us. 50 years from now, when people look back and think, "What were they doing?" and you can see some of that starting to take shape, where we just have a different ethical understanding of animals and what their neurological capacities for pain and for compassion and for understanding. And so I think all of that, you know, I would agree with you, I think, even if there was the hypothetical automated machine that could do this, there's still something strange about that thing not being sentient and thus not being able to pick up cues of the animal. And there may be a way to bridge that gap on the technology side but it's not going to feel that way for people who love this thing and want someone that they feel or something that they feel can be responsive in real time to a changing environment. And that is why I mean our groomers have to do that. I mean, there are dogs, especially older dogs or dogs that have health conditions. I mean, you've got to be paying close attention at every step of that process. I mean, it's an anxiety ridden experience for dogs. I mean, some dogs love it, right? The extroverted pups, but there's some dogs who it's just anxiety and they need someone there helping calm them.

PHIL   19:28 
Yeah, it's stressful enough without dropping them in a tub and hooking them up to a robot.

JARROD  19:35 
Yes, some George Jetson kind of thing. Yeah, just like probing around there.

PHIL   19:39 
So, yeah, dogs get stressed out, an experienced groomer knows how to soothe them and combine the socioemotional aspect of the experience with the practical, functional aspect of it. That you can't separate those dynamics and it's worth paying for that. To get a good groomer.

JARROD  20:01 
Yeah, I think the other aspect of it that makes it particularly impervious to automation is the fine motor skill component, the precision that it takes on the scissoring. I mean, that's, it's, again, not impossible to build that. But it's much, much harder when you get into that fine motor detail to build out automation at that level. I mean, we're not talking about boxing something up here. I mean, we're talking about precision cutting, you know, millimeters from something's eyeball.

PHIL   20:30 
Yes.

JARROD  20:31 
It really does take that kind of fine motor skill precision to do this well. Not impossible, but it's just a lot harder to create that kind of technology with that kind of precision. That's affordable, I guess.

PHIL   20:43 
Yes.

JARROD  20:44 
Yeah, yeah.

PHIL   20:46 
If you're willing to pay, you can get whatever you want. So, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, do whatever you want with grooming your dogs. But for the rest of us, I'm gonna stick with a human groomer. When people come into your program, we've talked about how they've probably have a lot that they're dealing with, we know that they have a lot that they're dealing with. And now they're being asked to trust The Grooming Project to help them make a change that they've chosen to make. Is there still some reluctance? Do you have to win people over? Do you have to convince them one that we can help you, two that grooming is a viable option for your future? What do you have to overcome with your students?

JARROD  21:28 
Yeah, I think it's more first and less the second. I mean, I think the market is easier to show that this is vibrant. That first piece, the trust piece, that's the hardest, because it really is. I mean, like I said, if you're told that if you do this for six to nine months, your future will be completely different. That is a long time for someone to sit in that space. And when you when you're looking at it from the outside, and you think in the span of a lifetime, six to nine months is nothing. But when you're the person who has to live every minute of every day of that six to nine months, and you're sacrificing the networks that have allowed you to get your needs met, for better or worse, to do this, then in your mind immediately it's, "Well how am I going to get those needs met if I'm over here doing this?" And that's an entirely understandable feeling. And we're never in a position to tell somebody that this is the right thing for you, because we're not walking in their shoes. So yeah, I think just systems wise, I think part of the challenge is, there are better ways to do this, where people just would have that support and wouldn't have to hope that it would be there and wouldn't have to rely on our weird mix of philanthropy and earned revenue and to try to help shore that up. But yeah, I think that's always going to be our challenge is there are some people who have no good reason to trust any system that's telling them that this is the best for them. Because it's not responsive to what their needs are right now. And I think that's more so than the market piece. The market piece kind of speaks for itself. It's difficult to deny. But that other piece very well could be that we're not the best solution right now. Because we just can't provide what somebody needs on the social emotional side and the physical need side.

PHIL   23:10 
When someone is ready for The Grooming Project, how does a student find you? How do they make that connection?

JARROD  23:16 
Most of our referral, I say most, about half of our referrals come from community partners. So other organizations, the homeless shelters, domestic violence shelters, social service providers, we get referrals from those organizations pretty regularly. And then the other half are word of mouth. So from current students and graduates who are talking to their friends or people who are in similar situations as them, and those folks are sometimes being served by those other organizations too. So I mean, there's that network of support is crucial. Because we really are, we're a pocket in this continuum. There are the the Rose Brooks's and the Operation Breakthroughs in the journey to new lives and Jewish Family Services and Amethyst Place. I'm sure I'm missing a whole lot of viable and important partners there. But they're meeting a need that we can't meet. But we're doing something that is really difficult for them to do, too. So that stabilization happens first. And then when somebody is in a place where they can focus, where they don't have to worry about it as much, then they can really start focusing on, "What can I do for my future?" And that's where we fit it. And so it really does take everyone in that spectrum for this to work, and it's all vitally important. But if any one organization tried to do it all themselves, and that's a Herculean effort.

PHIL   24:28 
Yes. And that stabilization component is so key when you're talking about six to nine months. With our flat tire example earlier, you're just thinking about getting through the day. And if somebody says, "If you make a commitment over the better part of the next year to take these classes, do the work that we're asking you to do, we can open up a whole new window of opportunity to you." But that's just a fantasyland, Six to nine months? Who looks six to nine months into the future?

JARROD  25:03 
Yeah, yeah, there's a endocrinologist who's named Richard Sapolsky, Robert Sapolsky, who's written some really great books about just the human mind. And he has a phrase that he uses that I love. And that's that poverty makes the future much less relevant. We bear witness that every day. It would actually be abnormal for someone who didn't know where they were gonna sleep tonight, or didn't know where their next meal was coming from to be thinking about nine months from now. That itself potentially is a condition that needs to be addressed. If somebody was, was looking past that thing that's right in front of them. And so yeah, it's just such a luxury to be able to live in a space where you don't have to worry about that. And I think it really clouds the understanding.

PHIL   25:45 
This isn't going to be a perfect example, because I don't know how many of the population you serve, might own their own home. But if I have to replace my water heater, I have the option of the cheap one that will get me through the next couple years.

JARROD  26:00 
Yeah.

PHIL   26:02 
Or I can spend almost twice as much for one that comes with a 30 year warranty.

JARROD  26:10 
Yep.

PHIL   26:10 
And I don't have to think about it again. So I have the luxury of being able to look long term, spend a little more money now, but in the long run, spend less money than this person who has less to spend.

JARROD  26:25 
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's that, I mean, that that is a good example of where people end up having to just rely on a series of continuing resolutions.

PHIL   26:35 
Yeah, I've never bought reconditioned tires.

JARROD  26:38 
Yep.

PHIL   26:38 
Yet, that's the only option for them. So I pay a lot more for a tire. I may spend four or five times as much on a tire that's gonna last 10 times as long. And if it doesn't last 10 times as long is going to be replaced for free because it's under warranty.

JARROD  26:54 
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I said there's a lot of, I mean, I think that's one of the misnomers. Our students are working just as hard and quite often harder than people who they're being judged by. They just don't have access or means to to participate in primary markets. So they're operating in secondary markets and off label markets. I think that that gets perceived as this person's not working hard, because they're not making...

PHIL   27:17 
They're making more choices.

JARROD  27:19 
Yeah, exactly. And that I think that more than anything, is something that perceptually I think we try to undo is this. Most of what happens in this space is governed by our perceptions of what people deserve, and not based on what people need. And those are two very, very different considerations.

PHIL   27:35 
It would only be accurate to describe them as making poor choices if they actually had choices. They have no choice. This is the only tire they can get.

JARROD  27:45 
Yep.

PHIL   27:45 
And that applies to so many other moments in their lives where we have choices and they don't. They're doing whatever they can. For any of our listeners that want to help The Grooming Project, serve this population, help The Grooming Project meet its mission, obviously, they can make a donation. But are there other fundraising opportunities out there other opportunities to give for our listeners?

JARROD  28:14 
Yeah, yeah. So we have a lot of volunteer opportunities which I can get into as well. We do have our annual kind of big gala event coming up October 16. And it is virtual this year. So we have a series of smaller house parties. And this is the first time we've done it this way. So we're really hoping that we can get a lot of support. And this is kind of a trust fall for us. We want to make sure that we're doing everything as safely as possible. We also can't just stop. And so the decision this year was for kind of a hybrid virtual event. So typically, this would be like a big ballroom with hundreds of attendees and a program and that that chicken dinner that gets served at every one of those fundraisers. Chicken dinner, pot roast. And so this is replacing that. So October 16 is the date of that. 7 PM start time and you can find all of the information for that and how to participate on our website, TheGroomingProject.org. And then from there, I think on basically every other front. I mean, we need kind of that classic time, talent, and treasure help. We get a lot of mileage out of people who understand markets and industries and scaling growth and all those things. So people who have that experience and are willing to share it with us and kind of troubleshoot how to scale this thing up without getting too far out over our skis. We find that feedback to be invaluable, just as valuable as a donation. But at the end of day we do have to pay our staff and we have to support the program. So cash is always helpful, too. But yeah, I think we have just about something for everybody and ways to help whether it's donation or just talent and time.

PHIL   29:43 
I will link to your website in the description but I'll also link specifically to the October 16 Gala. You talked about small gatherings instead of everybody showing up in a ballroom. We know people are getting together anyway and it's kind of this wave of things opening up and then closing down a little more. So you have the people around you that friends, families, neighbors, that you're doing your party on your deck or in your driveway, and small gatherings. That's great. But it would be even greater if it meant something.

JARROD  30:20 
Yep.

PHIL   30:21 
So if you're gonna get together anyway, and maybe you're looking for an excuse, more of an enticement to get people to come over, be a part of this gala on the 16th. The details, again, will be linked in the description. You can help a great cause. And if you don't like chicken, you can order whatever you want.

JARROD  30:44 
That's the beauty of it. There's, yeah.

PHIL   30:46 
Get carryout from whatever your favorite restaurant is.

JARROD  30:50 
No, and I think you nailed the the premise, right? For us, I mean, this is almost like what some schools have done where there's an in person option and a virtual option. And here, it's just this, I think, allows people to participate in whatever way they're comfortable. If they've got a small group of friends that they want to get together with that they have been getting together with this can be the cause for that night. If they wanted to view it privately, then the main program will be available over the app that will come with this or the web-based browser. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of the idea is to try to make it as accessible to as many people as possible in whatever way they're most comfortable with. Because it is. It's just everybody's experience is so different, right now. We're trying to be respectful and responsive to all those needs. But still also be clear that we have a need, as well. And that's to continue to maintain support. We had a social return on investment study done on our service in 2020. And we had a pretty good idea of what this was gonna look like because we know what it costs when somebody is homeless and has to access the emergency room or gets the police called on them consistently. I mean, those emergency services are really expensive and they're generally uncompensated. And so what we found was that for what can be tracked, and there's a whole bunch that is happening here that can't be tracked on the positive side, for every dollar that's donated to us more than $2 is returned to the community in savings and impact. Ultimately, we see it more as investment and social investment. But we can use the term donation, too, because I think that's what people understand the most. I think that's what we want to be participating in, is things that improve our communities long term, and that are worth doing. And so I think the conventional wisdom that we can't afford to do these things, it's actually the opposite. We can't afford to not do these things. And we see the results. I mean, our students are graduating 100% job placements. Average annual income for people working full time is more than $40,000 a year. And that's somebody who their income was functionally zero before. And so you just you see that, and then the numbers are great, but then staying connected to those graduates and hearing them talk about how they can make relationship decisions based on love and compassion and not financial needs. They're talking about their children, how they're in such a better place because they've been stable and in the same home and, and so this is definitely all worth doing.

PHIL   33:02 
And unfortunately, complaining about paying taxes.

JARROD  33:05 
Yeah, yeah, that, too. Yeah. So that's definitely we do have some really good support on the tax side. Because that is something that a lot of our students haven't done. And now they're they're starting to realize, like, "Oh, there's, there's a part of this that I don't like. But it's so much better than the alternative." And so we do have some tax experts that help walk people through, "This is what it's gonna look like now. Because you don't get to keep all that."

PHIL   33:28 
"Yeah, that's so exciting! I'm self-employed! I'm working for home!" Okay, well, here's our teachable moment on quarterly estimateds. "Quarterly what?"

JARROD  33:28 
Which I had to do myself. Yeah. Yeah, you're 100% right there. That is a stark realization, again, one that I think people are kind of excited to have to deal with. But yeah, it's a bit of a gut punch. Once that becomes a reality.

PHIL   33:50 
Well, to your point, about investing in the community, you were saying that The Grooming Project needs people's time, talent, and treasure to continue to serve the community. Those experts on scaling up and running a business, they will tell you that you don't solve a problem by ignoring it. You have to put your attention on it, and invest resources, whether it's doing work, spending, money, planning, combination of those. But just ignoring that problem and saying it'll take care of itself. It'll work its way out. Or this doesn't affect me and my daily life. So it doesn't matter. That's not planning for the future. You need to look at that problem and identify how is this going to continue to be a drag on the economy, community resources, just the mental and emotional psychological well being of my fellow humans?

JARROD  34:56 
Yep.

PHIL   34:57 
Do I want to ignore that? And I would hope that evaluation would lead to the answer of, "No, I do not want to ignore that. What can I do?" There's so many things you can do. And one of them is supporting The Grooming Project.

JARROD  35:09 
Yeah, I think that's right. There's more than enough to go around if we're honest with ourselves here. And there's a reason to do this. And so, yeah, we try to take the big tent philosophy that there are a lot of people working in the space and daily harm reduction is vital. Somebody needs to be doing that work. And we do some of that work, too. But our vision and future and focus is more, what happens after we're able to provide some stability support? Because ultimately, sustainable income is the path out. And short of disabling condition that doesn't allow somebody to work in our culture and society, sustainable income through earned wages, that's the ticket. And so I think we were fortunate to kind of stumble into, I mean, it was intentional, but we weren't expecting the grooming industry and the pet industry to go from $60 billion to $107 billion in five years. That was just a happy accident. But yeah, I mean, we're there and we're finding that it works. And so then we're on pace to get 300 applications for students this year. And we can work with maybe 40. And we're booked out two months on the grooming side. So we're looking at expanding our space. But all of that that's where that expertise in scaling comes in. Because you know, we don't want to take on expenses that we can't cover. And ultimately, the support to the students is the thing that has to be first. And that also requires our staff. And so then all of that feedback is just so helpful. We've gotten some really incredible people that have helped us kind of see the vision here and figure out which pieces have to be first and how to do due diligence at a relatively cost effective way, but also to not sit still. Because there's a way to just freeze and then experience a death by 1000 cuts while the problem gets bigger. So yeah, I think there's basically something for everybody. If there's interest in helping.

PHIL   36:53 
I just read Adam Grant's book Think Again - The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. I'll link to that. Think Again.

JARROD  36:59 
Yeah, we this, this could be like another three hours here.

PHIL   37:04 
But there's so many organizations that have gotten to where they are by doing something innovative, different, or even just doing what everyone else is doing. But doing it better. Working harder. And you get to the level of success that dulls your awareness of opportunities.

JARROD  37:29 
Yep.

PHIL   37:30 
And then you become stagnant, you have to have a mindset that allows you to still look for, where are those margins where we can take advantage of our skills? Or what someone else is not doing? What can we do? How do we need to change? How has the environment changed so that what we were doing doesn't work anymore? And that's where a lot of organizations, whether it's a not-for-profit or for profit, get stuck, and become irrelevant so slowly that they don't realize until they are so far behind that they can't recover.

JARROD  38:08 
Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things that I love about The Grooming Project and Natasha Kirsch, the founder. I mean, I think that the trap of founder syndrome and just falling so in love with the solution that when the problem changes, the solution isn't quite as effective anymore and there's a unwillingness to shift. We built a transitional living residence last year for our—I say last year really went into service this year—for our residents because housing was such a challenge when we have people with backgrounds that will make them look like a risk on paper. And we just couldn't find quality, affordable housing consistently. And so I don't know if it was hubris or naivete but we decided to just build a transitional living residence ourselves, like a block from our school. And it was a pretty big leap, right? This is pretty scary to go out and say, "We're just going to fundraise for this and build it and have the operations covered through the same mechanisms." I mean, it hasn't worked exactly the way that we were hoping. I mean, the students who get to stay there, they're a block away. So it eliminates transportation. They're stable. There's a playground on site. You can just see it. And so when our students when they first tour it, most of them immediately just start crying. Because the...

PHIL   39:07 
Well, yeah, I'm about to start crying, you just describing it.

JARROD  38:09 
Well, and it's just it's so cool, because then we start getting questions like, "Where is the catch?"

PHIL   39:20 
Yeah.

JARROD  39:20 
It's like there is no catch. Like this is yours as long as you're still doing your thing on the school side, then this is yours. And so yeah, I mean, we did six units because we wanted to make sure that we knew what we were doing first and that this wasn't going to be a colossal disaster. So about half of our student group right now, maybe a little less than half because we usually have anywhere from 10 to 15 sometimes as many as 20 students training in a cohort at a time, get to live there. For us it's those constant innovations.

PHIL   39:54 
And when The Grooming Project was being founded and just figuring out that grooming is going to be the focus and what sort of peripheral things do we need to address and someone said, "Well, if we could supply transitional housing for our students..." I'm sure it was a group of well-meaning people surrounding whoever would come up with that idea would have thrown out 100 reasons why this is a bad idea. I like where your head's at. I like where your heart's at. But here's why that won't work.

JARROD  40:27 
Yep. You're 100%. Right. And that's still, that mean, in those conversations I think there's a healthy balance. Because those decisions should be heavily scrutinized. And this one was. And I think that's part of the challenge is that there are so many tangents here that would be awesome to be involved in, we can only do so much. And housing was just such a big one over and over again that it became kind of unignorable. Building it and owning it ourselves and operating it maybe that's not necessarily the only solution. But it is I mean, I think that like Adam Grant that reference, like in that book, I think that's what I've enjoyed about working at The Grooming Project and with Natasha and the team there is that there's a pretty consistent focus on how do we make this better? How do we innovate this? And how do we find different ways to better understand? And that's a challenge for us, too, because like most of us, we have a pretty good mix of lived experience. We have the graduates who are now staff. We have some people who on the staff—social work and grooming side—who've lived a lot of this stuff. And that gives them an advantage. And it also there's a barrier there for them, too. Because there's the assumption sometimes that everybody has to do it the way they did it. And that path is going to be different for everybody. But it is a pretty forward thinking organization. And the social entrepreneurship side of it is always right there, too. There's 1000 different tangents there. So I keep bugging Natasha about creating a coffee shop in our salon and she tells me, "We're not doing a coffee shop." And so I bring it up, which is why I mentioned it now because when she listens to this, she's gonna go, "What are you doing?" But I mean there's just so many different ways we think we can insulate this.

PHIL   41:59 
It's hard to separate, yeah, yeah, what is innovative pivot and what is mission drift?

JARROD  42:06 
Yes.

PHIL   42:07 
There's a fine line.

JARROD  42:09 
Yeah, then what is my own ego and just the stuff that we just think would be cool? Because so yeah, I mean...

PHIL   42:13 
And what's gonna save me that detour on the way in? If we have a coffee shop here...

JARROD  42:19 
Yes.

PHIL   42:20 
...that's gonna shave 10 minutes off my commute.

JARROD  42:22 
Yeah, yeah, maybe put a gym. We could do a gym, too.

PHIL   42:26 
Why don't we have a dry cleaners?

JARROD  42:30 
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a cool space to be in, though. And then our students are just, they're just so awesome. I mean, there's just so much wisdom and knowledge there. And so when you see that turn. And they don't all end well, right? There are some people whose circumstances are just too severe. And those are heartbreaking. But the alternative is no support, right? So the baseline is nothing. And so even if half of those end up on a different path than they would have otherwise, it's worth doing. And the other group who just can't quite get there, that's where I think we just have to have a different conversation as a community about why. Because it's not lack of trying. And it's not wanting to make the effort. It's not that. It's exigent circumstances that are so severe that no person is going to be able to overcome this. I mean, that's just an indictment of us, right? And we are better than this. We are whatever we're doing right now. And I don't mean that to sound pessimistic because I think there's a lot of goodwill to fix that. But it requires an understanding first. And that "deserve" concept where people get wrapped up in, "Well, some people don't deserve it." If we can get past that, there's a whole other world of discussion about solutions that can work and will work and will make our communities better. So I feel like we're doing our part with that group of individuals who are ready. But there's another group who still get judged and I think there's a different solution for that. And there's no reason why we can't do it all at the same time.

PHIL   43:53 
There are people who are helping and there are people who need help. And every time one of your students is helped, that's one more person on the helping team.

JARROD  44:04 
Absolutely. And that happens. I mean, we see that right? You start seeing those tangential circles, where now there's stability here, there's connection, and somebody else in their family starts getting that same support. Some of the qualitative feedback from our graduates about the things that their kids are saying to them, it's just tear jerker stuff, where, you know, the kids are saying like, "I've noticed a difference, like, I'm really proud of my mom." And, and so yeah, just like, those are the kinds of things that working in like investment banking I have to imagine you don't get the kind of stuff from the people you work with.

PHIL   44:33 
And I would imagine most of your students don't even realize what an inspiration they are to you and your staff.

JARROD  44:41 
Oh, yeah, no, that's that...

PHIL   44:42 
I'm sure they're very grateful for the help that they're receiving, but they have no idea what they're contributing.

JARROD  44:47 
Yeah. And that's the beauty of it. I think part of the challenge is that the idea of charity, I get it, but it creates this hierarchy, this kind of top down perception. And it's not that at all. We are better people for having had this experience.

PHIL   45:01 
It's collaboration.

JARROD  45:01 
Yes, yes. There's an expertise that some of our staff can bring, but there's an expertise that our students bring, too. And so it's this exchange of experience and information. And, and again, most of that comes back to that trust. I mean, being able to build an avenue for that to happen and to reciprocate. And it takes kind of letting go of ego and which is really, really hard all the time. But yeah, when it develops, it's a really, really beautiful thing.

PHIL   45:28 
Anyone who wants to be a part of that beautiful thing, click on the links in the description. Be a part of the gala on October 16. There'll be a direct link to that splash page on TheGroomingProject.org. Jarrod Sanderson, Chief Operating Officer of The Grooming Project, I know you are super busy. You've got a lot of things that you've got to stay on top of and I'm gonna let you get back to it. Thank you so much for carving this time out of your day to update our listeners on the wonderful work that is being done.

JARROD  46:00 
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I know, Betty Jean was on a while back. And I loved that episode. And I just I appreciate you giving us a platform, too, to share our experience and to get some awareness out about what we're doing. So thank you so much for sharing the space with us.

PHIL   46:14 
Yeah, I look forward to our next update from The Grooming Project.

JARROD  46:18 
Yeah, when we get the coffee shop going you can come back. We can talk about that. And then the dry cleaners and the gym. We can talk about it because...

PHIL   46:25 
We'll do the interview in The Grooming Project Studios.

JARROD  46:27 
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing. The production company that you know, we'll just keep going.

PHIL   46:33 
I'll contribute my time and talent when you put in the studio.

JARROD  46:39 
Perfect. Okay, well, that that will be in the five year plan. It might be towards the back end of that fifth year, maybe, because the coffee shop obviously has to go first. Obviously.

PHIL   46:47 
I'm putting it on my calendar. Thank you again, Jarrod.

JARROD  46:50 
All right, thank you.

PHIL   46:58 
I'm Phil Hatterman and you've been listening to Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund.

Thank you to The Grooming Project's Chief Operating Officer Jarrod Sanderson for joining us today. Links to their website TheGroomingProject.org and all of their social media are in the description along with a direct link to October 16 Best in Show Gala. This is a fun way to socialize while helping a great cause.

There are also links to the Dog Words episodes we referenced in today's interview. If you find an old episode you like, be sure to share it with your friends.

Next time on Dog Words we welcome Peggy Gibbon from The Seeing Eye Dog Training School.

A big thank you to alternative string duo The Wires featuring cellist Sascha Groshang and violinist Laurel Morgan Parks for playing the wonderful music you've heard on today's and previous episodes of Dog Words. Supporting The Wires supports our mission. Now you can join Laurel and Sasha as they explore new music and delve into the inspiration behind each work as hosts of Sound Currents on 91.9 Classical KC. Click on the Sound Currents link in the description for more information. Learn more about The Wires at TheWires.info and download their music on iTunes. Check out FiddleLife.com and learn to play fiddle and cello-fiddle online from Laurel and Sasha, even if you've never played before.

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