0236: The Seeing Eye with Peggy Gibbon

Peggy Gibbon, The Seeing Eye’s Director of Canine Development, discusses their role in helping canines and their blind humans become a team.

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From the Dog Words archives:
0149: Moxie’s Mission with Katie Harris
0201: The Iditarod with Dr. Vern Otte

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Music for this episode is provided by alternative string duo, The Wires. Visit them at TheWires.info. Learn fiddle and cello-fiddle online — even if you've never played before — from Laurel Morgan Parks and Sascha Groshang at FiddleLife.com. Join The Wires as they explore new music on their show Sound Currents.

The transcript for this episode is available on the Dog Words Buzzsprout page: Buzzsprout.com/840565.

Make a donation at RosieFund.org or through our Facebook page. You can contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Also check out our page on BarkYours, the online mall with gifts for people who love their dogs.

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Transcript

PEGGY  0:03 
The dogs have a tremendous foundation in skill when they first go to the person and then they just need to develop the teamwork with the person. And the person needs to develop the dance with a new partner.

PHIL   0:17 
I'm Phil Hatterman and this is Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund.

Today Peggy Gibbon The Seeing Eye's Director of Canine Development discusses their role in helping guide dogs and humans become a team.

If you're new to Dog Words, in each episode we explore the world of dog care and companionship. "We save each other," is the motto of Rosie Fund which simply means the more we do for dogs, the more they do for us. And they already do a lot.

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Next time on Dog Words, Daisy Wise from Hello Bully talks about preserving the human and animal bond through the rescue and rehabilitation of canine survivors.

The mission of Rosie Fund is to provide humans with the resources and education they need to give senior and harder-to-adopt dogs a better life. Thank you for joining our mission.

Today on Dog Words, we are joined by Peggy Gibbon, Director of Canine Development at The Seeing Eye campus in Morristown, New Jersey. Welcome to Dog Words, Peggy.

PEGGY  2:31 
Thank you, Philip. Thank you for having me.

PHIL   2:34 
People see seeing eye dogs everywhere we go. We take service dogs in general for granted, not just seeing eye dogs. But this isn't something that has always been with us. Seeing eye dogs were sort of a eureka moment for someone. And am I correct that The Seeing Eye is one of the oldest training organizations in the country?

PEGGY  3:02 
Yes, The Seeing Eye is the oldest guide dog organization in the world. And for a training organization, probably one of the oldest.

PHIL   3:12 
How long has Seeing Eye been around?

PEGGY  3:14 
We were founded in 1929.

PHIL   3:17 
So it's not even been a century of seeing eye dogs. But...

PEGGY  3:21 
Exactly.

PHIL   3:22 
...but it seems like something that has probably been around forever, you would think. And I'm sure there were blind people who had dogs that they relied on. But it wasn't a formal training or it wasn't an expectation that, "Well, you're blind, let's give you something to help you through this world."

PEGGY  3:40 
Exactly. There are examples and photographs much further back in history of people using dogs, mostly on a leash, just following the dog. And it's just putting things together. They weren't necessarily even formally trained dogs, but they were helping people who couldn't see to get around.

PHIL   3:58 
And dogs are pretty smart. And it's not a given that you'll get a dog that can help you. But most dogs, once they bond with their handler, with their human, are going to do whatever they can to be of assistance—lead you where at least the dog thinks you want to go. Or maybe it is just where the dog wants to go. It doesn't care where the human wants to go. Because they realize, "This is my partner. We're a team." But it's been less than 100 years that that's been a formal structure. Can you tell us how that came about?

PEGGY  4:30 
The Seeing Eye was founded by a number of people with great foresight, Dorothy Harrison-Eustis being one of them. And Dorothy was a breeder of German Shepherds. And she was from Philadelphia, but she had relatives in Switzerland and had established a German Shepherd breeding program there. And she was way back in the '20s really committed to breeding German Shepherds to retain their working skills. And so that was her mission and she was breeding dogs that went into police and army service. And then she saw a school in Potsdam, Germany, where they were training German Shepherds to guide young men, mostly men who had been blinded in World War I with German Shepherds to guide them. And that gave Dorothy the first inkling that that was another job that these dogs could really do well.

PHIL   5:29 
And a German Shepherd is pretty much the stereotype of The Seeing Eye dog.

that if you're casting a dog in a movie or TV show, bring us a German Shepherd.

PEGGY  5:40 
It really is the stereotype still, I think, although worldwide, they are really in the minority. We still use a large number of German Shepherds. But the Labrador Retriever has won out throughout the world  as the number one guide dog,

PHIL   5:54 
Those are both breeds that bond pretty quickly with anyone. We've always had pit bulls, pit mixes, and they're for, better or worse, notoriously loyal to whoever is their pack. But it can take them a while to warm up to somebody. I understand using a pit mix, or any kind of mutt as maybe a support animal, if you get through that relationship, that training, and then have this dog that's got your back. We've had providers of service dogs for first responders who have PTS, and they'll go with mixed breeds. The training that you need from a seeing eye dog, however, seems like that would be much more demanding. The hit and miss of, "Oh, this dog will bond or maybe it won't." The amount of time it takes to get through the training, I think you want to hedge your bet to make sure that you're going to get a dog that is going to be able to handle the training, be of service. But then bond with that person, regardless of who it gets paired with.

PEGGY  7:07 
Exactly, that's a really good way to put it, Philip. There's a tremendous amount of training that goes into it and the responsibility in the partnership. It's really, as we know, with so many dog teams, teamwork between the person and the dog, with The Seeing Eye dog or the guide dog in general, the dog has to work in a very busy, complicated environment and make decisions on maneuvering back and forth around things, in heavy traffic situations. They have to have the confidence and stability to make all of these decisions, and to get through a long and complex training period. So there's this significant investment in time and energy into the dog, and then pairing the dog with the person. So we really do want to hedge our bets and go with the dog that we think will be most successful in that program.

PHIL   8:02 
We talked about training the dog, how much training goes into the person who gets the dog? You can't just hand them, like give someone the keys to a Ferrari and say, "This is the best car in the world. It'll be great." It's like, "Well, it may be the best car in the world, but I don't have a driver's license."

PEGGY  8:20 
That's right. And we know the dogs are even more complex than Ferraris. So the relationship needs to be built and honed. And so the people who are going to get the dogs come and stay on the campus here in Morristown. And if they're getting their first dog, they stay for about three and a half weeks. If they've had a dog before, they still stay for two and a half weeks because this is a new relationship. And even though they have skills from working with prior dogs, and we all know one of the challenges is that the dogs don't live as long as we do and we need to make repeated commitments and relationships. So it's a long training commitment for the individuals even if they're getting a second or third dog. And those who are getting there first have a lot of skills to learn. And they also need to develop the relationship and rapport with a dog to really become a good working team.

PHIL   9:18 
The level of trust you would have to have in a dog. It's hard to have trust with a person that you've only known for a couple of weeks to take care of you and not overlook things, even if they're well meaning. They don't know what I need as well as I know what I need. But to have that level of trust with a dog.

PEGGY  9:36 
Exactly. It's a tremendous level of trust. You get this animal when you first come and they live with you, you take care of them. You're taught their care. Taught how to groom them. Taught how to play with them if you don't have prior experience, and some of our graduates haven't had pet dogs before. So they're learning that and you develop this relationship and bond. And the people who come to get their dogs want to succeed very badly. And they see what for them will be a greater freedom of movement. And they want it to happen. They have to develop that trust, but they're really looking forward to it. And our staff is able to help them build that relationship by talking them through the initial trips. Explaining what the dog is doing. And people see the dogs have a tremendous foundation in skill when they first go to the person. And then they just need to develop the teamwork with the person. And the person needs to develop the dance with a new partner. So they need to learn how that dog moves, how to follow them, move together. And so you see that build over time, but they're building this bond of love at the same time. And those of us who have dogs know how important that is. And when you see people out on a busy street in New York City who can't see working together with their dog and this incredible relationship, it builds very quickly. It's quite amazing.

PHIL   11:03 
Last December, we had Katie Harris on from Moxie's Mission, and her challenge is mobility, and, and seizures. And she has a Labradoodle, I believe, Moxie, who was trained for her, but also, as their relationship developed, had skills that were not part of the training, that figured out things she needed, that were not explicitly taught to Moxie. Like she had a seizure or fell down. And Moxie knew to find her phone and bring her her phone. And she called 911. And while she was waiting for 911, Moxie brought her her shoes. We're going somewhere. You don't have shoes on! The dog makes those connections, connects the dots. Is that something that is taught to their handler? That you don't just end the dogs training now? How do you teach it more? Because you can't teach it for every eventuality in the training. You teach it to adapt, to be ready. But how does the handler sort of continually upgrade the dog?

PEGGY  12:20 
That's very true. The training continues on and on. And so while people are living here working with their dogs, they're learning what the dog already knows, and learning how to expand that to meet their own different environments. And so the dog fundamentally has the knowledge, "We stop at curbs. We turn left. We turn right. We go forward, depending on the commands that were given, and avoid any obstacles along the way, avoid any traffic when we're crossing the streets." And then those basic skills can be applied to a wide variety of environments. But you do have new skills that come along and new things that you need to be able to find. And so teaching the handlers how to help the dogs continue to adapt their skills in those new environments is part of what people are learning here. And if they need help when they get home, if they have a very complex environment, sometimes an instructor will end up going to their home to help them work through it. But many times they can teach the dog the environment themselves, particularly if they're very knowledgeable about their surroundings and it's a very familiar environment. So the dogs' skills will continue to develop over time. Sometimes you'll get someone who gets a dog, young person while they're in college, and they learned the college campus. And they learn it very well. And of course, there are always stories of the person who next semester their classes change. And they have to relearn all of the routes to the new classes but the dog remembers where they went last time.

PHIL   13:53 
Just a quick aside, we had on a veterinarian who volunteered for multiple years at the Iditarod and they change the route one year where it used to go out on this spit of land for many miles and then back. And they changed the route saying, "Going forward we're just going to cut across that. We're not gonna go out." And there were teams that had veteran dogs that were at the head of the dog sled who had to be convinced, "No! I know we've turned here the last three years. We don't turn here anymore. We go straight." And the dogs that were doing it for the first time were fine. It was those lead dogs that say, "No, trust me. I've done this before."

PEGGY  14:32 
"You don't know what you're doing! This is the way we go!"

PHIL   14:35 
It's like, "How did you forget where our classes are? I know what building and what floor. We did this for three months. How did you forget?"

PEGGY  14:43 
That's exactly right. And how great that those dogs learn that by doing it once a year at the Iditarod. That's a great story. And they do. They learn where they're going and it's their job to show you and sometimes you might have a little argument if you change your route. But then that person might graduate from college and then go on to live in New York City and have the very complex city environment to learn. And they learn it together and develop their skills together. So we do need to teach the human team member how to help the dog to develop new skills, but also adapt the skills that they already have, which keeps the whole class very exciting and power packed.

PHIL   15:24 
Where do you get your dogs from? Is there a sort of a feeder breeder who these dogs are going to be service dogs? Or these are specifically going to be seeing eye dogs? Or do you just look around to different breeders, you know, who say, "Oh, hey, in this litter here's this pup that looks like she's got what it takes."

PEGGY  15:45 
The Seeing Eye has their own breeding program. So because we have been doing this for a very long time and we need a significant number of dogs who have high potential of making it through all of their training successfully, we have been selectively breeding. Our breeding program, as it was started in the 1940s. And so we breed German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers, and Golden Retrievers, and crosses of Labs and Goldens. We're always selecting parents that we think would be some of the best guides. And we're also selecting strongly on health characteristics to try to be producing very healthy dogs that will be long lived and be teammates with their partners for a very long time.

PHIL   16:37 
Not to make this sound like it's just a commercial endeavor. But it is an investment to train a dog. And if it's life expectancy is only four or five years, that's a pretty quick turnover to invest in training a whole new dog. What is the life expectancy, the working life expectancy, because I know they can outlive their maximum level of service.

PEGGY  17:01 
So their working life, and most of the time they graduate almost two years old between 18 months and 24 months, and so the average working life is about eight years. And you're right. We want the dogs to be able to work a long time, not only all of the effort and resources invested in them, but the investment in the partnership on the part of the human being. You always want your dog to be able to live as long as they can. So we really want our dogs...

PHIL   17:29 
Emotionally, beyond just the financial obligation of what it takes to get...

PEGGY  17:33 
Exactly.

PHIL   17:35 
Obviously, they love each other and you want that to last as long as possible. And it may not sound like there's, "Well what's the difference? Three years if a dog has a five year working life or an eight year working life." Someone who lives to be 70-80 years old. Do the math on that. If you have to train, what 35-40% more dogs? That's more time and more money. That can add up over the lifetime of someone having a service dog.

PEGGY  18:03 
Exactly. That extra few years makes a huge difference given the number of graduates that we have and our commitment to continue to provide them with seeing eye dogs. We need to be having these dogs ready to move along and partner with people on a steady basis.

PHIL   18:21 
I'm curious what is the sort of success rate for a litter? Is it seven out of eight or 100% that go on to—because my brother-in-law and his wife are breeders of Broc du Bourbonnais and they field train the dog. When they deliver a dog, it has been trained for hunting and field work. But not every dog in a litter is up to that standard. And they are probably maybe not as selective as you are. They don't have as much staff and training but they know their stuff as far as what pairs they match up. And just genetics don't always work the way you want them to work. So it's no fault of the breeder that not every dog in the litter meets the standard you're looking for. So that's my sort of disclaimer that I'm not expecting 100%. But sort of what it is, what is the success rate?

PEGGY  19:18 
Sure, and we can always wish for 100% and work toward higher goals. But we are currently, it's around 60% success rate for our dogs who become either a guide dog or a breeding dog for our program.

PHIL   19:33 
And I have no doubt that that other 40% of the litter gets a great home, has a great life because they're coming from a great lineage.

PEGGY  19:42 
They are. And they are successful in their own right. While they didn't not achieve the goal that we were intending, we know that great companionship is important in itself. We have a fair number of dogs that go on to do other jobs. So many of our dogs end up in detection work with various law enforcement organizations. And they're often the dogs that are maybe a little more energetic and a little more scent distracted than a guide.

PHIL   20:10 
Don't have the temperament for a guide dog but still are great dogs.

PEGGY  20:14 
Exactly. But for another job, what an awesome dog they can be. And we've also had some dogs that maybe didn't have quite the confidence to be a guide dog, but then can go into another service dog program and work well with somebody else who needs a different job.

PHIL   20:34 
And because of the breeding criteria you have, even those dogs are going to be ones that should have good health, good longevity, good broad temperament as far as being social.

PEGGY  20:48 
Exactly.

PHIL   20:49 
Even if they have the specific temperament of a guide dog.

PEGGY  20:51 
That's right. And we work and work to make the healthiest dogs we can. Your comment that genes are fickle things and sometimes we can't get rid of all of the health problems as much as we try. But in general, we do have a very nice temperament dog who hopefully will live a long life.

PHIL   21:09 
Yeah, I think a lot of the criticism against breeders who try to keep a pure bloodline is that they don't always have the same criteria that you do. Sometimes it's a arbitrary aesthetic feature that also compromises that dog's health. We all know that there are breeds that because of the breeding have challenges with asthma, eyesight, infection, bone structure. All of those would be significant drawbacks for any kind of service dog, let alone a guide dog. So yeah, you're looking for parents of a litter that regardless of how it looks, is going to be a healthy dog.

PEGGY  22:03 
Right. Function is the most important thing that we have a dog that we're breeding for a certain purpose and for a performance. So the dog has to have the temperament and stability to do the job. But they also have to be physically structurally sound enough to do the job or they won't be able to do it. So we have a strong selection process. With that in mind. So it does end up with developing a dog that is functionally and temperamentally sound.

PHIL   22:34 
Well, now that I know where you get your dogs, how do the handlers find you? How do they get the dogs from you?

PEGGY  22:42 
Each class tends to be about two thirds replacement students, people who have had dogs before and one third new students. And the new applicants generally find out about us from our returning students, from people who are working with guide dogs themselves. So the biggest reference that we have is our graduates who are out there working with dogs. They may also learn about us online. Certainly a lot of young people today are doing their research online. They're looking for the websites and maybe through social media. Talking with people who have dogs from various guide dog programs. And mobility instructors may be another source. If one of their clients is asking or interested in a dog, they may be able to give them information about The Seeing Eye.

PHIL   23:32 
I'm sure we have listeners who have had some experience with either a member of their family or a friend who's needed a service dog of some sort and know what a transformative relationship that can be. The freedom that it gives someone, the confidence, the opportunities that it gives someone adding that to their life. Any of our listeners who want to help The Seeing Eye, what opportunities are there to become a part of your mission?

Well, if you live in the right area, and want to raise a puppy, you can always do that. We have about 500 puppy raisers in the area, New Jersey, eastern Pennsylvania, and we have two clubs in Delaware and one in Maryland. And so our puppy raisers do an amazing, awesome job getting these dogs started. We have certainly a lot of volunteers in the area. And no matter where you live, The Seeing Eye is completely supported by private donations. So we have no government support. So the support that we get from the people around us helps us to continue to do the job that we do.

And I will interject and perhaps pull back the curtain a little bit—and regular listeners probably have already seen behind this curtain—I think you could probably do your job a lot better without government support, because you know best what it is you need to do, and you don't have someone else deciding the best way to select your dogs, train your dogs, pair them with handlers, select who gets the dog, who doesn't get a dog. The freedom that that gives you I think is very important for you to be able to achieve your mission. And so anything our listeners can do to help you retain that freedom, that independence to meet your mission the way The Seeing Eye wants to meet that mission. A link to SeeingEye.org is in the description for this episode. And if you go to the website, it's very easy to find how you can help. I mean, the tab is called "You Can Help" and "Knowledge Center" to answer your questions and admissions. Even more than the wonderful information that I am getting from Peggy. Peggy Gibbon, Director of Canine Development with The Seeing Eye, thank you so much for the way you and your colleagues are making this world a better place, not just for people, but for the dogs. Dogs want to have a job. Dogs want something to do. They want a companion. They want to be with humans. For millennia, that's what we have bred them, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to become. And this is just, I think, a marvelous way to help a dog fulfill its destiny while also helping a human have a better life.

PEGGY  26:19 
They really do. Just like people, the dogs that are good at the job love their job. And they get to get out and go with their person and be with their person all day and do things and they were bred for it. They love it. And the partnership is just an amazing thing to watch.

PHIL   26:38 
I encourage our listeners to be of service and maybe it's helping out with Seeing Eye. But if there's anything else that is your mission, even if it's not related to animal welfare, hopefully this podcast inspires you to take those steps. But if those steps seem overwhelming, you don't know where to start. Well, a great way to start would be just click on the link for SeeingEye.org and help with their mission. Peggy Gibbon, thank you for joining us today.

PEGGY  27:07 
Thank you, Philip. It was great to talk to you.

PHIL   27:14 
I'm Phil Hatterman and you've been listening to Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund.

Thank you to Peggy Gibbon, The Seeing Eye's Director of Canine Development for joining us today. Links to their website and all of their social media are in the description. There are also links to the Dog Words episodes we referenced in today's interview. If you find an old episode you like, be sure to share it with your friends.

Next time on Dog Words. Daisy Wise joins us from Hello Bully.

A big thank you to alternative string duo The Wires featuring cellist Sascha Groshang and violinist Laurel Morgan Parks for playing the wonderful music you've heard on today's and previous episodes of Dog Words. Supporting The Wires supports our mission. Now you can join Laurel and Sascha as they explore new music and delve into the inspiration behind each work as hosts of Sound Currents on 91.9 Classical KC. Click on the Sound Currents link in the description for more information. Learn more about The Wires at TheWires.info and download their music on iTunes. Check out FiddleLife.com and learn to play fiddle and cello-fiddle online from Laurel and Sasha even if you've never played before.

Celebrate five years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the website store, buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com, or putting some of our merch in your cart when you shop at BarkYours. Links are in the description. Your donations help fund the Rosie Life Starter Kits that make sure these senior and harder-to-adopt dogs have some of the items they'll need in their forever home.

As always, please download, follow, rate, and share Dog Words. This helps us with sponsorships. Then Rosie Fund can help more dogs. Support Rosie Fund by following us on social media and please subscribe to the free Rosie Fund YouTube channel. Our latest post features a sweet KC Pet Project dog looking for a forever home. Send us your comments, questions, and suggestions at RosieFund.org. And let us know if you would like to be a sponsor or guests of the Dog Words podcast.

Thank you for listening and remember, we save each other.

DISCLAIMER: This document is a transcription obtained through a third party. There is no claim to accuracy on the content provided in this document and divergence from the audio file is to be expected. Some content may be omitted, particularly when there is crosstalk.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai