0237: Hello Bully with Daisy Wise

Daisy Wise from Hello Bully talks about preserving the human and animal bond through the rescue and rehabilitation of canine survivors.

Hello Bully online:
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From the Dog Words archives:
0233: Eric Gilbert, The KC Dog Guy
0232: Pinups for Pitbulls with Deirdre Darling

Deirdre’s master’s thesis Public Policy: Community Safety Through Breed Bans? analyzes the effects of breed specific legislation (BSL) and the statistics relative to dog bites, dog shelters, and rescue groups. Spoiler alert: BSL does not work!

Celebrate 5 years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate at RosieFund.org or through our Facebook page. You can contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Also check out our page on BarkYours, the online mall with gifts for people who love their dogs.

Music for this episode is provided by alternative string duo, The Wires. Visit them at TheWires.info. Learn fiddle and cello-fiddle online — even if you've never played before — from Laurel Morgan Parks and Sascha Groshang at FiddleLife.com. Join The Wires as they explore new music on their show Sound Currents.

The transcript for this episode is available on the Dog Words Buzzsprout page: Buzzsprout.com/840565.

Make a donation at RosieFund.org or through our Facebook page. You can contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website or buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com. Also check out our page on BarkYours, the online mall with gifts for people who love their dogs.

Rosie Fund online:
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Transcript

DAISY  0:02 
He's gonna turn out to be someone's like best dog ever.

PHIL   0:05 
Yes.

DAISY  0:06 
And because of him, these dogs deserve a chance.

PHIL   0:12 
I'm Phil Hatterman and this is Dog Words presented by Rosie Fund.

Today, Daisy Wise from Hello Bully talks about preserving the human and animal bond through the rescue and rehabilitation of canine survivors.

If you're new to Dog Words, in each episode, we explore the world of dog care and companionship. "We save each other," is the motto of Rosie Fund, which simply means the more we do for dogs, the more they do for us. And they already do a lot.

If you love dogs, you'll love Dog Words. We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Go to the podcast page at RosieFund.org to share your thoughts. Please download, follow, rate, and most importantly, share Dog Words.

Celebrate five years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the store on our website, buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com, or buying our notecards and shirts on BarkYours.com. Links are in the description. Your donations and purchases help fund the Rosie Life Starter Kits that make sure these senior and harder-to-adopt dogs have some of the items they'll need in their forever home.

Please follow Rosie Fund on social media. Subscribe to the free Rosie Fund YouTube channel that offers great videos of Rosie, Peaches, and shelter dogs, including some exclusive content like the sweet KC Pet Project dog featured in our latest post.

Our friends at mixed met Creamery are joining the downtown dog park development City Dogs KC in Kansas City's Crossroads and are moving to 2001 Walnut Street on October 1, they'll still offer their amazing selection of artisan ice cream for dogs, Clementine's ice cream for people, and many other treats, toys, and accessories.

Next time on Dog Words, David Adams tells us about Sniffspot and you'll wonder why you didn't think of it first.

The mission of Rosie Fund is to provide humans with the resources and education they need to give senior and harder-to-adopt dogs a better life. We thank you for joining our mission.

Today's guest on Dog Words is Daisy Wise, the founder, president, and probably the busiest volunteer at Hello Bully. Welcome to Dog Words, Daisy.

DAISY  2:24 
Thank you so much for having me, Philip.

PHIL   2:27 
Hello Bully is kind of an intriguing name. The bully breeds have a bad reputation and it's getting better and better, fortunately, thanks to the good work of people like you and other guests we've had on like recently Pinups for Pitbulls, addressing the unfortunate stereotype that these dogs have. Tell us about Hello Bully's mission.

DAISY  2:55 
So our mission has evolved over the years. We obviously did start as a pitbull rescue and advocacy group. We've always just been big supporters of the idea that dogs like people are individuals and they deserve to be treated as such. And when we started in, I started getting into pitbulls in 1995. And then we started our rescue in 2005. And at the time, pitbulls were literally on fire. You know, now everyone probably knows someone who has a pitbull. You hear people make a lot of very well-meaning comments about pitbulls. And once people have met pitbulls, they often have a different perception and they realize that there's this really insane bias. But Hello Bully goes back to one of my loves. I was a graphic designer before I got into dog rescue. And I've always been a huge fan of Hello Kitty. And I thought you know what is more approachable and friendly than this, like super cute little pitbull with and we have like, some of the versions of the logo have like a little bow in the hair, you know, but just trying to rebrand pitbulls as more approachable and as they're just dogs. Like there's nothing inherently different about the breed.

PHIL   4:19 
The label is everything. It's branding and if your brand gets a bad reputation, whether it's deserved or not, you have to rebrand. With the bully breed you can't change the name.

DAISY  4:36 
Oh, people tried.

PHIL   4:37 
Yeah, it doesn't work.

DAISY  4:39 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they started calling them like the St. Francis Terriers, I think. That was like down south years ago. I don't know. Maybe that's like an urban legend, but I heard someone got sued because they were trying to call pitbulls something that they weren't I don't know. But I think it's very important to be transparent and honest at all times about this breed. So the breed that we focused on most...

PHIL   5:00 
Yeah, I don't want somebody who's living in an apartment that bans pitbulls to just say, "This is a lab mix."

DAISY  5:06 
Right.

PHIL   5:07 
And then get in trouble, because then that just undermines the credibility of pitbull owners.

DAISY  5:12 
Right.

PHIL   5:12 
What you need to do is fix the breed bands. Fix the breed specific legislation.

DAISY  5:17 
Right. Well, and not everyone I would say, especially in this day and age has like the bandwidth, the energy to even make that connection that there is something that they can do about legislation. I think a lot of people are kind of caught up in the 2020, post whatever world we're in. We have our shelters are full right now. So I think it's important to get that information to people, "Hey, you know, you can change things like this." And the other thing is, one of the things that has been most effective for us is saying, I've contacted many landlords and said, "Can we meet? Like, can you please meet this dog?" We had a dog fighting survivor named Ferdinand, who was from a case in Ohio called the Ohio 200. I think to this day, it's the largest number of dogs on a single yard in US history. And there were some great dogs, but a lot of them were super fearful. And there was this lovely dog named Ferdinand, who, you know, he would belly crawl because he was super fearful, but he would belly crawl to you. He would make it over to you to get that affection. And the second we saw that we were like, "Oh, yeah, we can work with this." And because we said to someone's landlord, "Hey, do you think that you could give this dog a chance?" Because the guy was like, "I love dogs. But like, you know, pitbulls, have you seen the news?" And I'm like, "Yeah, but meet this dog." So pitbulls can be the best advocate for their breed. And that dog actually went on to live a happy life with cats and kids. And his mom actually started a senior dog animal rescue because of him. So I think it's important to try and connect with people and get them to connect with the dogs because that is where you will see people really change their mind.

PHIL   7:03 
As with all stereotypes, it's a shortcut. It's just easier to say we don't take pitbulls. Just as it would be easy to say you have the same last name as this serial killer. And we don't rent apartments to people with that last name.

DAISY  7:19 
Yeah, it just it really...

PHIL   7:21 
Or you could meet me. You can sit down with me and have a conversation.

DAISY  7:27 
And then these people, once they have this experience, it's really to me, I think they seem small, but those personal experiences have a ripple effect. And I'm sure that that person went out and shared, you know, I know that it impacted his adopter's life to be able to bring him home. And to give a dog fighting survivor, like an incredibly rich and spoiled life. But I'm guessing that for her landlord, he probably told that story, too. So I think it's important to try and connect with people and just show them like show them the dogs. And make sure you're like putting out in dogs that can be shown. Not every dog needs to be an ambassador for their breed.

PHIL   8:06 
Yeah.

DAISY  8:06 
They don't have to be perfect to live in the world. Like I would call BS on anyone who says that their dog or they are perfect. So I know they're not for everybody. But I think that there are a lot of great pitbulls out there. And...

PHIL   8:19 
No one should have the responsibility of being, without their own choice, designated the ambassador for whatever class they belong to, human or animal. And if there is, think of whatever the most lovable, adorable breed of dog, you can think of, whatever that might be. If that dog is out of control and biting other tenants, you need to evict that person.

DAISY  8:44 
Right.

PHIL   8:45 
Because that is a situation that is out of control. And you shouldn't be forced to rent to them. Likewise, someone has a pit bull that is a great dog, until they prove otherwise give them the benefit of the doubt just as you do the people.

DAISY  9:01 
And I think when you look at individual dogs, it's okay to say like some of these dogs might have limitations. I will also say that I believe in putting really solid dogs out into the public. I'm not saying that they can't be fearful. I'm not saying that they can't have reactivity issues. We take a lot of dogs who are straight off of a yard and then have been held as evidence for however long. And that can look like a lot of different things. That can look like great care at a shelter with a ton of resources or two meals a day and some water and a kennel that keeps you contained. So a lot of times we don't know what these dogs are gonna to look like in the real world. But we do make sure that either we or someone we have a great relationship with and trust assesses the dog. Like you said, it's not fair for these dogs. They're not asking to be ambassadors for their breed. They've already survived a literal hell. And then we have to saddle them with this responsibility. But I will say that what dog fighters have done to this population of dogs—and I'm not talking about just pitbulls. I'm talking about specifically dogfighting survivors who are from a very small gene pool and have been genetically selected for their tenacity, for their aggression, for their ability to withstand pain. And then these things are exploited. You know, dog fighters will usually separate pitbulls from their mom in about four weeks. At about five weeks, they start separating them from their siblings but they let them like fight for food. They really try and turn up the terrier in them. A lot of the problems that people have with their pitbulls is it's like not a pitbull problem. It's a terrier problem, because I've had other terriers, too. And like, terriers are tenacious. We bred them to go out and do a job and come home at the end of the day and get paid. And to be really nice while you're doing it, hopefully.

PHIL   11:11 
To go into a rat's burrow...

DAISY  11:14 
Right, exactly, exactly.

PHIL   11:16 
...and not come out until you've got the rat.

DAISY  11:18 
Right. Do the job. Get the job done. When people say it's all in how you raise them, I have to stop them every time. It's just not true. If we say that, then we discount the power of a better environment, of behavior modification, of behavior medication, of a medical intervention to make sure that the animal has wellness. It's just, oh, you can't take a dog who's been weaponized and say...

PHIL   11:52 
Okay, Daisy. Get out, get out of my head, Daisy.

DAISY  11:55 
...like, I'm gonna love you, and then it's gonna be okay. The world does not work like that. We have to be honest about that.

PHIL   12:02 
When you said weaponized, it was like, you were channeling my thoughts. You were in my head. Because I was thinking of the movie trope where they take someone either as a child and train them to grow up to be a killer or they take someone and erase their brain and program them to be a killer, to do something either evil or good. It doesn't matter which side this trained killer is on. Then the movie trope is now what do we do with this person now that their task is done? How do we reintegrate them into society? Or do we banish them? What do we do to this person that we've trained? And we have a responsibility. We've done this to them. You can't just abandon them. So sort of the First Blood Rambo series is kind of on that. But then there's, you know, there's countless movies that have that trope. We have a responsibility to these dogs, one, to take care of them, because of millennia of breeding dogs, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to be our companions and to depend on us. So we have a responsibility to take care of them. But two, specifically these dogs, to still meet them on their own terms. That we had The KC Dog Guy, Eric Gilbert, on a couple weeks ago, who's a dog trainer, and he was talking about in a dog's DNA it has genetic limits. And that varies from dog to dog. Just as some people are social and want to be at every party and in big groups and other people would rather have their space and be left alone. Dogs are like that, too, genetically. And you can't take a dog that has been abused and mistreated and then on top of that try to go against its genetics. If it's not a social dog. Because a dog can be antisocial and not aggressive. And you take a dog that's antisocial and has been conditioned to be aggressive and try to undo that, instead of just meeting it on its terms and saying, here's a dog that we're not going to take to the dog park. We're not gonna go off leash in public. That we need to have this dog on a leash. We need to minimize its contact with other dogs. And that's who it i. And not try to turn it into something else. And like you said, make every dog an ambassador. Put them in a situation where they're going to succeed and recognizing here is the social dog. Here's the dog that we can take its aggressiveness and turn that into it being just a high energy dog that is not aggressive. Because it's in its DNA just to have all this energy and a dogfighting ring turned that into aggression. But a, an experienced trainer can recognize what a dog's limits are, what its tendencies are, and put it in a situation where it's going to succeed instead of forcing every dog to be an ambassador. Forcing every dog to be social if it's not social.

DAISY  15:03 
Right, right. But I also don't think that we should write off true dog aggression.

PHIL   15:09 
Oh, absolutely not. That's not at all—I want to be clear. That's not at all what I'm saying.

DAISY  15:14 
Well, a lot of people will say that the pitbull problem is more one of arousal than aggression. And while it's true that the state of arousal is closer to the state of aggression, so once we're already kind of amped up, it's easier to go there, right? Let me talk about how I assess pitbulls for safety and adoptability. And I recently made a couple of changes in how I do this. And this is going to be like little, little tiny trigger warning here, we're going to be talking about behavioral euthanasia. That is a piece of this. So I think it's important that when we step up for a really high risk population, that we say, listen, we want to save as many of these dogs as we possibly can. But we are not going to place dogs who are going to pose a danger to someone else.

PHIL   16:05 
Yeah, we talked about that a few episodes ago in talking about no kill shelters. No kill shelters are important. But let's not hang that no kill status on a percentage. If this is a municipality where there are dogs that do not have any other option, let's not force a shelter to keep those dogs at risk to others and having a poor quality of life just so that they can keep their label.

DAISY  16:38 
Right, right. So like I said, I'm all about transparency. And I love data. So for people who might not know this, I'm sure you're aware of this. But it's always worth saying when you say no kill that no kill actually means a 90% release rate.

PHIL   16:55 
Right.

DAISY  16:55 
Because to the general public, No means no. And I don't think it's fair. I really have a problem with the term no kill because it's trying to redefine something that has a pretty established meaning. No means no is literally a thing like. So I think that we should call it what it is. I just think that no kill really can cause a lot of divide because the general public doesn't understand what that means. So no kill means 90%. In my experience, so a little bit of history, I worked for HSUS for six or seven years and ran the Dogfighting Rescue Coalition placing survivors of dogfighting from huge federal cases for years. And then I was behavior manager at a shelter in Pittsburgh where I placed some more dogs like that. And now I'm a contractor and I deploy with the ASPCA and do behavior work with these dogs in their temp shelters and then my rescue take some of those dogs. So in my experience, when I have been overseeing an entire case, my rates have been about 70%. 70% survival rate for dogs who had everything stacked against them. Had been raised to be antisocial. Have been bred to be antisocial with dogs. Who have never been socialized in the world. So the second they step off that chain, they're completely flooded in a shelter, in a home. They often like aren't given the time that they need to decompress. But I just think it's worth saying like that, you know, when you talk about no kill, I think that we should call it 90% no kill. But then I get to say, "Hey, guess what? You also take a chance on dogfighting survivors, because they're 70% saveable."

PHIL   18:49 
Which is a phenomenal number. It sounds like, "Well, 70% is a lot lower than 90%." Well, 90% of all of these dogs that come in that were just random strays, or owner surrenders, because of someone had to move or whatever reason. There's nothing wrong with the dog. And the dog really had no challenges. 70% when it's dogs that have been identified, the reason they're in that pool in the first place, is because they have a challenge in getting placed. And I've not talked about this on the show before, because the conversation really hasn't really led there. But instead of calling them no kill shelters—and I'm welcome any other suggestions—I think they should be called placement shelters. So that people know the mindset if a dog is brought in there as a stray, as an owner surrender, whatever reason, our focus is on placing this dog. And then you can say, we have a 90% placement rate.

DAISY  19:46 
Yep.

PHIL   19:47 
And the dogs that don't get placed is because they are unplaceable.

DAISY  19:51 
Right, right. I just think, you know, we can't oversimplify these conversations into like no kill and save them all because it just really stops the public from understanding what the work is that we actually do. I do want to give like a little bit of a window into like, what it looks like to make these decisions about these dogs, because this isn't something that I usually talk about, but I'm feeling extra transparent today.

PHIL   20:16 
And I think people need to know.

DAISY  20:19 
I actually agree.

PHIL   20:20 
I don't want them to think that a shelter that, or a rescue group, that makes this decision does it lightly. People need to know what is the process. So I think this is a great opportunity for you to share that.

DAISY  20:36 
What we used to do is we used to do a full assessment of every dog. And so an assessment is just basically a mini stress test. We let the dog warm up and we get to know them. And while we're getting to know them, we're recording how social they are, how many times they try and interact with people. Do they take treats? Do they seem to be really uncomfortable in the environment? Just a snapshot of what this dog looks like in a five to 10 minute window. And then we would do this little stress test, which is just basically handling like they would be handled at a veterinary appointment. Play. So we can get the dog really aroused and then stop and make sure that the dog can like settle down and not go into a frenzy bite mode. Because dogs do bite for arousal sometimes. And then we test them with food and resources to make sure that we can be safe around them when they're eating. And that doesn't mean that dogs can't be like, "Hey, this is my food." But we can't have dogs who are going to try and kill you because you dropped a piece of food and went to pick it up. And then after all that we would do the dog test. So what I decided on the last case that we assisted on was that we were going to do a longer warm up, no stress test, and then the dog-dog test on day one. And we were going to weed out the dogs that just can't be placed because they have been weaponized. And Philip, I'll tell you to be honest, one of the reasons that I think that's important to do is because some of these dogs we get so attached to. As much as we are worried about the quality of life of the dogs, we also have to consider the quality of life of the people and make sure that we are not getting attached to dogs who ultimately are not going to be safe for placement. I think it's great to be attached to them in taking care of them. And to give them the absolute best care. I think giving them empathy is one thing. But I also think in doing daily care, there's some danger if you have dogs who are very dog aggressive. And I've seen these dogs, once they get put in a cage, they're tearing down chain link. They're like, "Oh, this this isn't gonna stop me. Are you kidding?" What we did on this last case...

PHIL   22:51 
Well, before you move past that point.

DAISY  22:52 
Yeah.

PHIL   22:53 
It's so easy to become emotionally confused. Your affection for that dog can lead you to be sloppy. And I've seen it happen with volunteers who they just love this dog. They want this dog to find its forever home and start treating it the same way they treat a dog that does not have that same low threshold for aggression. Because well, I'm getting I'm getting close to it, I'm gonna give it a chance. And that's not this dog.

DAISY  23:28 
Right. I'm just gonna love it and it's gonna make it better. And I've seen those people, time and time again, put dogs into situations where it's a bite waiting to happen. It was not unpredictable. And a lot of times, unfortunately, people who want to step up for dogs who are super in the margins are people who have no skills in working with dogs. And they don't realize that they don't have the tools to do what needs to be done for this dog. So when we dog test these dogs, we use a fake dog. Have you ever seen the anyone use the Melissa and Doug black lab in a dog test?

PHIL   24:08 
No.

DAISY  24:09 
I'll email you a video when we're done. People watch it and they're like, "Oh my gosh, that's a fake dog?"? I'm like, "Yeah!" But no one knows. It's cool. So we use...

PHIL   24:18 
I need to contact the guy who did our—my wife and I have done the dog CPR.

DAISY  24:24 
Yeah.

PHIL   24:25 
And those dogs look like what you would win at a carnival for knocking down the kewpie dolls. This sounds like something better.

DAISY  24:37 
Here's the secret. So you take your dog's blankets and you wrap them around the fake dog so that they smell like dogs. You can also use a little bit of dog urine on these dogs so that when dogs approached them, they're like, "Oh, that's a dog." We also use collars that smell like dogs. I have a dog who has a ton of old tags. And when she walks I like bounce her a little bit. And the tags jingle. So there are a lot of signals for the dog that this is a regular dog. And a lot of times what we do, and specifically for these dogs, what we do we test them in two ways. One is we have what I call the oops introduction. So basically there's a corner and you just come in and oops there's a dog. So they meet a dog coming around the corner. It's usually we try and get the dog to pass them so they can go to the back end of the dog. And what we look for is just natural dog behavior. You can tell when a dog's like, "Oh, this is a toy? Oh, yeah, let's play." Versus a dog who doesn't even take the time to think. There is no decision making. It is immediately that they're going into that, you know, fight mode,

PHIL   25:57 
The dial's at 11 immediately,

DAISY  25:59 
Right. And, you know, like, I don't know what there—here's the problem. There's nothing to compare it to. Because what other animal is forced to fight for their own life against their own species? I mean, in America, pitbulls are it. They get the worst of the worst. And those experiences, that trauma can deeply, deeply impact these dogs. So what we need to do is look at these dogs, like get that quick snapshot and say, "Are you okay if something happens?" And what we've seen is that when we use the fake dog, and then we use a real dog, the fake dog predicts what's going to happen with the real dog about 80-90% of the time. There's that 10% chance, which is why we always double test when we're talking about euthanasia. But I will tell you that I've recently had a dog with no teeth grab the muzzle of the fake dog, and it's hard plastic. I actually want to do like a little bit of a necropsy on the fake dog just to see like, "What is that?" But this dog crushed the face of the fake dog. And while that dog was amazing with people. It ran around the room. He ran to everyone. He got in everyone's lap. He was giving kisses. And I wish there was an island and a family for that dog where I would feel okay for the rest of the people and animals in the world putting that dog out there. But I have done that. I've placed dogs who had serious dog aggression. And I feel like I've been really lucky in finding those people who were just super responsible. But then those homes are single dog homes for you know 10-15 years. And you're basically like, when you have a dog like that to place you're waiting for that other dog to basically pass away. I mean, that's what it boils down to is waiting for that home to open up. So I think it's important that we look at pitbulls and, you know, I wouldn't recommend any breed who goes for the throat or tries to take a leg off of a fake or real dog be put out into the public. That's just not sane. But on the flip side of that, the dogs that I have seen from these populations, Philip, are magical. You give them the right skills, you teach them with love and compassion and kindness and patience, and you motivate them with food and play and the ability to go out and explore natural behaviors. We use helper dogs for these dogs when they're fearful. I currently have a dog in my home. We met him about five months ago. He is a two year old American Pitbull Terrier named Baby Yoda. And he was seized as part of a dogfighting investigation and then held for four months. He was so fearful that when I first assessed him in April of this year, I had to lift him and carry him to the assessment room. And when you lifted him and carried him he wouldn't growl or bite or anything but he would fear eliminate. So there's pee and poop the whole time that you're getting from point A to point B. And I said, "Let's see what it looks like with another dog." And holy cow! This dog could walk when there was another dog there. And this dog was like an almost normal dog when there was a helper dog. I had a room full of like cops and lawyers and they watched this dog go from like shaking in the corner to when the other dog came in. When the helper dog would approach people, Yoda would kind of sneak up on the side and go, "Let me just get one quick sniff," and then, "Oh, too much." But he now, I'm proud to say, walks on a leash. Plays with a handful of other helper dogs. He's learning life skills. He enjoys pets. He like comes and asks for it. And if we were there, you know and it kills me to think of all the dogs that we can't be there for, because there are just so many. But I'm so glad that we were there for this one because he's going to turn out to be someone's like best dog ever.

PHIL   30:09 
Yes.

DAISY  30:09 
And because of him, these dogs deserve a chance.

PHIL   30:13 
And that dog would be trapped in a bottleneck if we were placing dogs that should not be placed. Until that island exists that you wished for. You can't just...

DAISY  30:25 
It's on the Internet, Philip. You can find it on the internet. Have you not, have you not seen the dog island?

PHIL   30:31 
I've seen the Wes Anderson movie. Isle of Dogs.

DAISY  30:34 
No, there's an island like Dog Island, and they talk about how you can send your dog there and they like breed rabbits so that the dogs can eat. You can like pay a million dollars, go on a yacht and pass by the island. Yeah, the island doesn't exist, folks. And that's the sad reality of the work we do. But I think...

PHIL   30:50 
And there's only so many of you and your colleagues doing this work, that you do have to allocate resources for maximum benefit. That's the sad reality.

DAISY  31:02 
Yeah. Well, and I will say Hello Bully focuses on dogs who have behavioral and medical needs. You know, most of our dogs by the Asilomar Accords, which is, you know, a standard of adoptability that we use a version of at our rescue. Most of our dogs are like manageable or rehabilitatable. So I will say about the dog fighting population that I would argue that the resources that we need to put into them maybe more, but they are not just proportionate. They stack up to what these dogs have been through.

PHIL   31:39 
And again, they deserve a chance.

DAISY  31:42 
Amen.

PHIL   31:43 
For any of our listeners who want to help give those dogs a chance—and let me just back up a second and remind our listeners that Rosie Fund we help senior and harder-to-adopt dogs find their forever home. Those dogs that we feature, the dogs that we supply Rosie Life Starter Kits for those are all adoptable dogs. Those are dogs that have been identified by a shelter or a rescue group as ready for adoption. But we have to get dogs to that stage. We have to get dogs to be adoptable. And organizations like Hello Bully need help in doing that. If there were no groups doing the work that Hello bully was doing, if there were no rescue groups or shelters rehabilitating dogs, Rosie Fund would have no dog to sponsor or feature. So how can our listeners help Hello Bully?

DAISY  32:38 
I would follow us on Facebook and just visit our website. We often have small fundraisers for specific dogs who have medical or behavioral needs. And I would also say just if you're involved with a shelter or a rescue, get behavior out of the junk drawer. Behavior is why dogs end up in shelters and rescues. You can tell me all of the numbers, but I have worked in shelters. And it is behavior. Its behavior, behavior behavior. That's why. And a lot of these problems are really easy to solve. It doesn't take much to train a dog to do basic stuff. And most of these issues are really just dogs doing natural dog stuff and it not being compatible with what the owner wants. And maybe the dog just needs an outlet to do dog stuff. But I think owners, if you need behavior, help look for it. And people in shelters and rescues don't forget that we have to have a holistic approach to these dogs. So make sure that you are valuing your behavior teams and giving them resources. Training these dogs with, like I said, they need patience, guidance, love bumpers, lots and lots of treats. I don't even mess with dog treats anymore. I go straight for hot dogs and cheese and my dogs work real hard. So, dogs aren't losing their lives because they get a little chonky. You can walk five pounds off it's not a big deal. But really like prioritize behavior because you will save more lives.

PHIL   34:08 
We talked about that with Deirdre Darling from Pinups for Pitbulls based on her master's thesis, which was linked in the description for that episode, and I will link it in the description for this episode. Regardless of breed, it really does come down to behavior. Teach your dog how to act around children. Teach the children how to act around dogs. Have the dog on a leash. Don't put them in a situation where they're going to put anyone at risk or where your dog is going to be at risk. It's that simple. It's kind of like diet and exercise. We all want something magical. Like, "How can I get in shape?" Diet and exercise. "Well, that's too easy. What, I want to buy some fancy piece of equipment. I want to get on some special diet. I want to..." Just diet and exercise. Dog it's just it's just behavior. Just, just take care of your dog, people.

DAISY  34:58 
Right. Right. Right. And it's really simple. Like, there are resources out there. So, and you know what? If you're using reward based training, you really can't like the worst thing that's gonna happen is your dog's gonna get a free treat.

PHIL   35:11 
And that's not so bad.

DAISY  35:12 
I don't know, I like free food. Free food tastes better if you ask me.

PHIL   35:18 
And if and if a dog is getting its exercise and playtime, it's not gonna get fat.

DAISY  35:25 
Yeah, and I mean, that's one thing...

PHIL   35:25 
The fat dogs are the ones that don't exercise. I don't think it has anything to do with their diet.

DAISY  35:25 
Yeah, I mean, dogs usually love to be outdoors, to walk, to sniff, to be out in novel environments. And yeah, usually it's just a lack of activity. And you know, that's one of the first things that we do is when you look at behavior problems, the first question is, are all of this dog's needs being met? Is this dog able to work and earn rewards? Is this dog able to play with other animals if it's social? Or walk with other animals if it's not? Is it able to get out and explore and interact like a dog does? There's some trainers who think that exercise will fix everything. And sometimes certain types of exercise can make dogs worse. If you take a dog who is high arousal, and use some kind of like driving repetitive like ball exercise with them...

PHIL   36:24 
You're amping them up.

DAISY  36:25 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love to use exercise, but you want to throw some little dollops of training in there as well to like, slow them down and teach them that they don't have to be operating at a 1200 all the time. Because they're terriers.

PHIL   36:39 
Which goes back to talk to an experienced trainer. They will help you identify if a dog's prey drive is just being activated or if you're just fueling the aggression, so that you're not doing something counterproductive, that you're giving it the kind of training that is going to help make it a dog that just has a better life, and fits into your pack.

DAISY  36:40 
All dog stuff is not intuitive. All trainers and behavior consultants say like, "I've had teeth my whole life, but I'm not a dentist." Like just because you've had dogs doesn't mean you're a dog expert.

PHIL   37:13 
Yes. And not all dogs are the same. What you did with one dog that worked. Maybe you got lucky. We talked about this also with Eric Gilbert. With the last two dogs that we've had Rosie was dog aggressive, she'd had a bad life. And we gave her a very sheltered life with us. We avoided interaction with other dogs, but gave her a rich life with us. Lots of exercise, lots of playtime. However, the dog we have now, Peaches, as Eric pointed out, you couldn't have screwed her up. She was just out of the box a great dog. And if Peaches had been our first dog, we would have had so much false confidence. Aren't we great dog trainers? Aren't we so good? We get compliments all the time on what a great job we've done with Peaches. We've done nothing. Don't don't expect us to tell you how to turn your dog into Peaches. We just hit the jackpot with her. And we know that because previous dog had all kinds of challenges. And we accepted that our limitations keep us from doing more with her than than what we've done. I don't think enough people recognize that. Like you said, just because you've had teeth all your life doesn't make you a dentist. People think, "Yeah, I can figure this out. I figured it out with the last dog or I was great with dogs when I was a kid." Doesn't hurt to get advice from a professional. It's worth every penny.

DAISY  38:45 
Absolutely, absolutely.

PHIL   38:47 
Well, this episode, we'll have a link in the description for your website, HelloBully.org, as well as links to your Facebook, your Twitter, your Instagram, YouTube. And you said people can help by following on social media. I don't think people realize how much that does help because it helps get exposure and that might help with the image of bully breeds. It might get someone to make a donation who otherwise would not have known about Hello Bully or get someone to become a volunteer to help with causes like this. It doesn't cost you anything to follow on social media. So please do so. Any final thoughts for our listeners, Daisy.

DAISY  39:30 
Let's just give these dogs a chance. And remember it's just not okay to make blanket statements about any group anymore. Like, we don't do that 'cause it's 2021. So just look at dogs as individuals and give dogfighting survivors a chance. They need your support. It is a lot of resources to help rehabilitate these dogs but they absolutely deserve it and we have had so many dogs go on to live fantastic lives. And we do have a lot of great ambassadors. We do have a lot of canine good citizens and therapy dogs who are just the best of the best. And I just believe in pitbulls. These dogs have made me a believer.

PHIL   40:13 
And anyone out there who is not a believer, I would hope that anyone who's a regular listener to Dog Words already is in our camp. But if you're not, if you follow Hello Bully's social media, you will see countless examples of these wonderful dogs living their best life. Thanks to Hello Bully. Daisy, I look forward to having you on again for updates. And thank you so much for the work you do and for taking time to share your story with our listeners today.

DAISY  40:45 
Thank you, Philip. Thank you so much.

PHIL   40:53 
Thank you to Daisy Wise from Hello Bully for joining us today. Links to their website and all of their social media are in the description along with links to the Dog Words episodes we referenced in today's interview. If you find an old episode you like, be sure to share it with your friends.

Next time on Dog Words, David Adams tells us about Sniffspot and you'll wonder why you didn't think of it first.

A big thank you to alternative string duo The Wires featuring cellist Sascha Groshang and violinist Laurel Morgan Parks for playing the wonderful music you've heard on today's and previous episodes of Dog Words. Supporting The Wires supports our mission. Now you can join Laurel and Sascha as they explore new music and delve into the inspiration behind each work as hosts of Sound Currents on 91.9 Classical KC. Click on the Sound Currents link in the description for more information. Learn more about The Wires at The Wires.info and download their music on iTunes. Check out FiddleLife.com and learn to play fiddle and cello fiddle-online from Laurel and Sasha. Even if you've never played before.

Celebrate five years of Rosie Fund by supporting our campaign to sponsor 50 dogs. You can donate on our website or Facebook page. You can also contribute by making a purchase from the website store, buying a t-shirt at Bonfire.com, or putting some of our merch in your cart when you shop at BarkYours. Links are in the description. Your donations help fund the Rosie Life Starter Kits that make sure the senior and harder-to-adopt dogs have some of the items they'll need in their forever home.

As always, please download, follow, rate, and share Dog Words. This helps us with sponsorships. Then Rosie Fund can help more dogs. Support Rosie Fund by following us on social media and please subscribe to the free Rosie Fund YouTube channel. Our latest post features a sweet KC Pet Project dog looking for a forever home. Send us your comments, questions, and suggestions at Rosie fund.org. And let us know if you would like to be a sponsor or a guest of the Dog Words podcast. Thank you for listening and remember, we save each other.

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