A conversation with Dr Brett Ashley Crawford and Paul Hansen. Their new book (Raising the Curtain. Technology Success Stories from Performing Arts Leaders and Artists) looks at how performing arts organisations and artists are successfully using technology in a variety of different contexts.
We talked about how the pandemic became a catalyst for innovation, we look at examples of organisations that have embedded technology across all their work. We discussed how digital transformation is not just about adopting new tools, but rather a revolution in connecting with audiences and empowering artists.
Brett and Paul share lots of specific, tangible examples of organisations that have successfully adopted new, more digitally-enabled ways of working across a huge diversity of areas. They also share their insights and observations about the common traits of organisations that enjoy the most success with adopting and executing these new ways of thinking and working.
You can find more info about the book, and order a copy, on the Wiley website.
Dr Brett Ashley Crawford is an Associate Teaching Professor of Arts Management at Carnegie Mellon University's Heinz College of Information Systems and Public Policy and is the Faculty Chair of the Masters of Arts and Entertainment Management Programmes.
Paul Hansen is a marketing, creative and PR consultant, primarily working with the performing arts. As marketing director for Dance Kaleidoscope, a medium-sized company in Indianapolis, Paul navigated the challenges of using technology in new ways for nearly 12 years.
Raising the Curtain was published by Wiley in March 2024.
A conversation with Dr Brett Ashley Crawford and Paul Hansen. Their new book (Raising the Curtain. Technology Success Stories from Performing Arts Leaders and Artists) looks at how performing arts organisations and artists are successfully using technology in a variety of different contexts.
We talked about how the pandemic became a catalyst for innovation, we look at examples of organisations that have embedded technology across all their work. We discussed how digital transformation is not just about adopting new tools, but rather a revolution in connecting with audiences and empowering artists.
Brett and Paul share lots of specific, tangible examples of organisations that have successfully adopted new, more digitally-enabled ways of working across a huge diversity of areas. They also share their insights and observations about the common traits of organisations that enjoy the most success with adopting and executing these new ways of thinking and working.
You can find more info about the book, and order a copy, on the Wiley website.
Dr Brett Ashley Crawford is an Associate Teaching Professor of Arts Management at Carnegie Mellon University's Heinz College of Information Systems and Public Policy and is the Faculty Chair of the Masters of Arts and Entertainment Management Programmes.
Paul Hansen is a marketing, creative and PR consultant, primarily working with the performing arts. As marketing director for Dance Kaleidoscope, a medium-sized company in Indianapolis, Paul navigated the challenges of using technology in new ways for nearly 12 years.
Raising the Curtain was published by Wiley in March 2024.
Hello and welcome to the Digital Works podcast, a podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. My name's Ash and in today's episode episode 48, we have a conversation with Paul Hanson and Dr Brett Ashley Crawford about their new book Raising the Curtain. The book shares technology success stories from performing arts leaders and artists and looks at everything from organisational, culture and strategy through to things like the practicalities of working with data, innovative approaches to technology and production, artistic expression and audience experience. Dr Brett Ashley Crawford is an Associate Teaching Professor of Arts Management at Carnegie Mellon University's Heinz College of Information Systems and Public Policy and is the Faculty Chair of the Masters of Arts and Entertainment Management Programmes.
Speaker 1:Paul is a marketing, creative and PR consultant, primarily working with the performing arts. As marketing director for Dance Kaleidoscope, a medium-sized company in Indianapolis, paul navigated the challenges of using technology in new ways for nearly 12 years. We talked about a number of specific examples of impact and success, lessons that the sector could learn and the traits of individuals and organisations that are able to more readily embrace the opportunities presented by technology and new ways of working. Enjoy. So my first question, before we get into the specifics of what is in the book, is why did you write this book, what was the sort of impetus to getting started and how do you hope it's used and who do you hope it is used by?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I was working during the pandemic, during the shutdown, as the marketing director of the one-person department for a medium to small-sized dance company professional company and, like all arts marketers at that time, the challenge was to keep our organizations in front of our patrons and donors. And the word from that time that none of us really it's like Voldemort pivot. You know, technology was changing so quickly and all of us working from home had to figure out the new technology, learn the technology and how to apply it. You know, those first efforts were certainly rudimentary or a bit crude, but they did the job right. It was a huge task and all of us I think I felt sort of isolated, and so what I did was reach out to arts marketers, not only in this market but across the country and a couple in Europe, and as well as attending webinars through organizations like Advisory Council for the Arts, and so it was not only emotional support but also great tactical advice and sort of lessons learned. The primary lesson that was important the emotional one was that we're all in the same boat, no matter the size of our organization.
Speaker 2:I remember a webinar that on the panel the Scottish Ballet was a part of and I was going through trying to figure out music rights for streaming and you know we have some pretty popular music that can be quite expensive.
Speaker 2:And so when I asked the panel, specifically Scottish Ballet, how they were handling that because they were streaming a lot and they have beautiful production values they went radio silent and in that moment I realized, ah, they don't have an answer either.
Speaker 2:So in that moment, and coming out of the pandemic, the idea for this book came about, and that is to create a resource where arts administrators could share what they went through, where arts administrators could share what they went through how they solved the problems on all levels of their organization, not simply marketing, but also, as Brett will talk about, administratively, in the office, communication, etc.
Speaker 2:And so I started working in the summer of 22, interviewing various people, just having casual conversations about the book concept and how it may or may not be helpful, how I could fine tune, and discussing with Wiley, our publisher, what they might be looking for in this concept. And a friend told me about Brett, and I was so fortunate to find Brett because this is her area, and so I'll let Brett talk about how organizations kept dropping everything that they learned during the pandemic, all the technology that they were using during the pandemic and then went back to either the old way or just scrapped the entire thing and then the benefits of those organizations that continued on and improved and went to the next generations improved and went to the next generations.
Speaker 3:And I will say I was really excited when Paul connected with me, because my passion is using technology to improve the business operations so that we can reach more people with the art, and I've been doing this my entire career.
Speaker 3:So having the opportunity to create something that can be used in sort of a longitudinal, to create something that can be used in sort of a longitudinal, multi-perspective way, was really exciting. Yeah, no, it's a important book and I think what we really liked and what we really focused on was how can we make sure that a board member can find an answer when they're trying to make a decision about adopting a technology, or somebody who is at sort of the mid-level that they can engage in it to solve a problem? So it's both a how can I do it, what's the change management and where are the ways I can make quick and instant successes so that people get excited about the opportunities. And that's what I really love about what's sort of come out the other end. But we both, I think, really see the book as a service to the industry to help people solve the problems they can solve if they just take that step.
Speaker 1:And that's fascinating because, to your point, paul, I was despairing at points when you say, oh, this organization has done this really interesting thing or done this really useful piece of experimentation that was maybe not successful in and of itself, but lessons were learned. And then, just because it was this sort of cascade of chaos, people were leaving and lessons went with them, or people were just so desperate to resurrect the status quo pre-pandemic that actually all the digital things that did happen were very much shoved to one side and the lessons went with them. So I think it's really valuable that you have compiled this book because, having read it, there are lessons in there for every type of cultural organization, large and small. And I think what's really interesting is you've looked at every possible aspect of digital working. You know all the way from sort of data and CRM through to production methods, through to, you know, natively digital cultural experience. So really really exciting piece of work. And I want to look at the book itself now and at the work that you've done and the conversations that you've had, and I thought it was very interesting that you start.
Speaker 1:You know your first chapter is on project management and communication, and I really smiled when I read the passage. While it would be wonderful to simply add on a technology to the workplace and have it magically solve our problems, that is rarely the case and yet it feels like so often, these sort of invisible considerations of management, of communications, of sort of principles and thinking, and this soft connective tissue, as I sometimes describe it, is often overlooked or underestimated by cultural organizations and also by funders when digital projects are initiated, you know, there's often excitement about the technology or excitement about the artistic potential, but these sort of nuts and bolts considerations rarely seem to be prioritized in conversations and I'm intrigued what your research and your conversations uncovered in terms of what the more successful organizations are maybe doing in this area. Were there commonalities shared across the more digitally successful organizations?
Speaker 3:I really appreciate that you are lifting up the problem that we don't think about the organization as we're focusing more on the project, and that it's not something that's funded particularly in the United States sort of those nuts and bolts pieces, because I think it makes everything easier.
Speaker 3:I think some of the conversations we had highlighted the fact that size does not matter.
Speaker 3:Like we had several organizations that were succeeding, who had budgets around a million, which is large for some right or smaller, down to you know, maybe four or 500,000, who were finding great efficiencies by intentionally thinking about how can we communicate more fluidly, how can we prevent death by email, how can we make sure all the people that need to know something know it, and that we're all doing the things that we need to do at the right time, right.
Speaker 3:One of the pieces that I liked was then looking to the larger, more established organizations and finding those stories where, like Aspen Music Festival, they have a wonderful tool but it was not being used to its greatest efficiency, right. So you have these small organizations who are quick and nimble and saying let's solve this problem with technology, and you have these established organizations who have found great nuance that they can pull out of things like arts vision, where they can say, all right, if we can just use this tool as our center of truth and everything's going into it, then we don't have to have 15 different systems used by 14 different departments. We can just all use this one. And I think that is a lesson that was repeated over and over again, like finding the piece that works, using it to its most degree and bringing everybody on board so they could trust that the technology solution was going to be there, give them what they needed when they wanted it.
Speaker 2:I think also what we found, or I found in many organizations, is that stereotypical divide between the artistic staff and the administrative staff, and it's almost as if they're going in two different directions.
Speaker 2:And it takes marketing, using a band-aid, trying to pull things together, to synthesize things, and with the systems that Brett covered in the early chapters, many organizations are using them, especially project management, so that everyone is on the same page. They're working toward that same end product. So not only does that cut back on expenses, certainly on time, but it creates a product that has been researched and that is what the audience wants, what the community wants, and it's done in a way that is much less painful and that comes across in the artistic product. I mean, you know, audiences are smart and they can tell when an organization is, you know, a bit fractured here and there. I mean just thinking through social media. We know so much more about every organization American Ballet Theater, you know, just yesterday, through social media they're looking at potentially going on strike because things are happening that affects viewership, that affects patrons, and so technology allows everyone to work in the same direction and for everyone to openly communicate.
Speaker 3:It requires some change management, meaning that you have to onboard and train, even if you're a small organization. I would say it's really it's the rules of engagement. We all have to know those rules of engagement and that's what lets the administrative arm work really nimbly with the production arm is production knows how they're using the tool, they know how they're supposed to engage with administration and vice versa, and administration's learning how to effectively use that tool To a strong as you pointed earlier, you know strong ROI. They're seeing the return on the investment because everybody knows what's happening. The staff is happy, the audience is happy and everybody's moving to the same direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that certainly mirrors conversations I've had through this podcast with people that did a lot of creative work digitally in the pandemic, simon Baker, who's one of the directors at Emma Rice's Wise Children. He said suddenly I was in the room with people I never normally talk to marketers, box office staff because in a digital experience, all of these things are far more interlinked and interconnected and impact one another than they perhaps do in more traditional, offline forms of culture and in those scenarios collaboration and communication becomes really, really important. So I thought it was really great that you highlighted some really successful examples of organizations that have managed to address that problem, because it does require a complete redesigning of how you work, sort of institutionally. The next area I want to look at is around how this change comes about.
Speaker 1:You know, even the most digital of cultural organizations is still much less digital than the most digital non-cultural organization. They're all on a journey. They all have had different starting points and different sort of catalysts to move them forward and to start to pay attention to this stuff and, through the conversations that you've had, what were the observations around how this change starts? You know, does it always require, you know, an artistic director that really gets it, or a board member that's really invested in it, or you know someone on the exec or the leadership team to say this is something we need to be investing in. Or were there examples of more sort of bottom up or maybe even sort of middle out examples of people who weren't in leadership positions but managed to sort of spark some change in digital interest?
Speaker 3:So I think what was exciting for me is that and particularly as someone who teaches in a graduate program where students want to go in and make change right is that you can make change at all the levels. So you can definitely be an institution which Paul can give you more information around sort of the Jacob's pillow story. Right, it is baked in its culture that it is tech forward right? Just because of the artists that created the company. And then you have other companies. So Andrea Newby was working at North Carolina Symphony and is now at Theater Squared and she just knows and feels comfortable in technology and so she sort of echoed it out to make it part of the culture.
Speaker 3:And then another example was at People's Light Theater, where the box office patron services director, eve, was just passionate around technology and said this is a way we could solve our problems.
Speaker 3:And now they're doing really interesting audience studies using Airtable and they figured out how to do their subscription tools in partnership with their Tessitura install but doing a lot of the sort of little nuanced pieces through some tools that they're also using through Airtable and a couple of plugins through A little nuanced pieces through some tools that they're also using through Airtable and a couple of plugins through Airtable, and so it's happening both in the, I would say, the audience facing at the artistic level and the marketing area, where Andrea was working and sort of saying but we could learn more if we just cleaned our data and then if we take that data, we could do these things with it. That's another piece of the book that I think that keeps popping up to me is everywhere you're seeing that people are starting to see the value that they can eke from a cleaner piece of data, but it has to be human-centered data, and so it's an interesting tie that we've found sort of across all of our chapters, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love those and I'll add to that. I think that there certainly must be buy-in from the board and upper management, because that's where the blocks sometimes come from. Arts marketer, who is freelance at this point, but she works with the Cleveland Orchestra, san Francisco Ballet. She was with New York Phil for a number of years and specifically with Cleveland Orchestra. As they have a small season, a residency in Miami, each year, the numbers weren't adding up, the attendance wasn't where they wanted it to be, and Cleveland Orchestra, this wonderful, wonderful quality orchestra, is sort of steeped in tradition and ideas, contractual ideas about how they are marketed, making sure that the musicians and the conductor have equal billing and photos are equal, etc. Etc. So for the Miami market, which has a completely different vibe, julie used a lot of data, a lot of research into that market, into finding out optimal ticket prices, finding out optimal programming, going into areas that marketers typically are not permitted to go, especially with erudite organizations like the Cleveland Orchestra, and so she came up with not only campaigns but a robust way of being in Miami that was true, to the heart of what the organization is in their home base, but that opens it up and has been quite successful there.
Speaker 2:Another example that I want to highlight is a dancer with Pacific Northwest Ballet, price Sutterth. During the pandemic he, like every dancer, was trying desperately to come up with ways to be creative and to create content, and so he created this beautiful nine-part film series for Pacific Northwest Ballet so they could get in front of their audiences as we were discussing, and he found that he really loved the technology and he loved creating in that way create a film festival that extended Pacific Northwest Ballet's audience reach, that lifted up choreographers from around the world and created this entirely new artistic outlet for the company. He's doing beautiful work, but that's coming from someone in the artistic side that basically has now created a position on the administrative side and he's crossing back and forth, and I really see that as a way forward for survival for most organizations. Frankly.
Speaker 3:And that doesn't have to do with size, because we saw the same thing happen with attack theater with Dane. Tony was a dancer, really good with technology, and started working on the production side and doing a lot of interactive work during the pre-pandemic days and then became literally sort of their digital asset manager. They began streaming everything as well as having it live, and when they entered the pandemic they had all the tools in place to start doing their arts education programs online, to start thinking more robustly about how can we reach more audiences and they do a lot of audience engagement in an interactive way, not just in one directional streaming and he had developed those tools over time and then became one of the key people through the administration decision-making level. So I think that technology opens the opportunity for the boards to support, but for the creativity to pop up in a lot of different positions.
Speaker 1:And I'm interested by a number of everything you're saying, but specifically the elements of culture and I think that's already becoming a key theme through everything that you're saying.
Speaker 1:That's already becoming a key theme through everything that you're saying, but also what you've described there in terms of where the idea originates and some of the structural fluidity that is inherent in digital working, and I think that is also mirrored in some of the observations you make in chapter five, which is titled Defining who you Are, and I was really struck by some of the shifts you described there, because it feels like there are significant opportunities that digital presents for cultural organizations to present themselves and exist in a very different and excitingly different way way, but that many of those opportunities are probably only possible by rethinking or rebalancing a lot of the traditional power dynamics that exist within cultural institutions and within the relationship between cultural institutions and artists and audiences.
Speaker 1:Some of the examples that you cited there is a complete reworking of the traditional commissioning dynamic. It feels like there's a real opportunity to empower artists, empower creatives, empower collaborators, but that probably does require some letting go of the traditional mode where the institution is, if not the only voice in the conversation, but the loudest voice Would you say? That's a fair observation and for cultural organizations that are maybe thinking, okay, yeah, we recognize we maybe need to engage with our collaborators and our audiences and our artists in a different way, how do you start to go about letting go of some of that control?
Speaker 2:I suppose Well, interestingly, a number of truly inventive organizations and individuals there that I spoke with were finding ways of fulfilling things that the board and or leadership put into new strategic plans that then they handed to the staff and said make this happen. And so, for example, sf Jazz, ross Eustace created a position there and, just like everyone, they started streaming things concerts, pre-recorded concerts just to stay in front of people. But the mandate was from the board to develop streaming and to develop communication to develop their education, and so Ross built this entire platform for them. They built it into their new facility, they built the cameras, they built the capabilities. However, they had no idea where they were going to go with it, which I find so brave, and it created this opportunity, you know, for, okay, middle management or I don't know what Ross is a musician actually and so he just sort of stepped up and created this program. That's wonderful. They have SF Jazz at home and they do weekly programs. Now, jazz at home and they do weekly programs. Now.
Speaker 2:Other examples of this that I find really fascinating in that chapter that you mentioned defining who you are, there are two organizations that did rebranding highlighted Detroit Opera and Ballet RI Rhode Island, because they're two different size organizations. Detroit Opera has a much larger budget and a very large, robust staff, whereas Ballet RI literally the entire rebranding was done by the executive director and the marketing director, who actually was a dancer, who just sort of said, hey, I can do it. I think some of these larger stories are going to be aspirational to organizations and some are simply nuts and bolts that are going to give steps and things for people to remember as they go along.
Speaker 3:And I will kick in there that it is operational as well as sort of baked into that public-facing piece. So Theater Squared is in Fayetteville, arkansas, and they're the largest theater there. But when they built their new space they didn't know the pandemic was coming. But they knew that they needed to be at the top tier of technology with more sort of, I think, a marketing mindset right. But what they found is having everything wired. When they did have to flip the button right, they had the technology brain sort of baked into the operations so that they had the ability to say we're having this streamed, we're going to use this as a community tool.
Speaker 3:They didn't create big shows, they were doing these small community shows.
Speaker 3:But in their first piece they had 50,000 viewers because they'd already used their data in a way that they were marketing and communicating. So people were seeing what they wanted when they wanted it, and it became very intimate to the community as well as to the greater audience. And now, post-pandemic, they still have a very tech-integrated facility and they're finding it's really useful for production so that the production manager can simply watch everything that's happening in the theater and for some I used to be a production manager, I had to get out of my seat, walk over to the theater, see what was happening so she can just keep an eye on it. If they have an actor and let's say an actor might, in these post lockdown days, come down with COVID need to isolate. They can actually still engage with the show because they actually have it wired so they can still engage with rehearsal. So you keep all your uptime in production but you're always able to engage with the community and the technology in a way that works for everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that touches on something else you mentioned in the book, an observation by colleen dylan schneider that organizations that have invested in this stuff are sort of accelerating away from the rest. You know, and actually it's yes, you get the benefit, the direct benefits, that you expect back, but there are all these ancillary benefits like the ones that you just described. And you know, I'm really keen that more cultural organizations wake up to this reality because, you know, make the change, make the investment, and then the opportunities will start to become more apparent. It's difficult to maybe always imagine the opportunity until you started to take steps in that direction.
Speaker 3:I'm just going to pony into that. It doesn't have to be only technology. It's sort of how technology supports you, and I think about Savannah Philharmonic, where it's very human centered. They went into the communities, they were talking to people, getting people's information from those performances that were in the community into their data system so that they could follow up with them in appropriate ways such that in a very short period of time, by being human centered but data driven, they were selling out their subscriptions. You know the thing nobody sells out of anymore. So it can be very human centered. It doesn't have to be just I'm dealing with data in a closed, dark room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would add on to that One of the thrusts that Brett and I are very clear about for the book is that not only do we present the technologies that people use, but we show a lot of the steps that people made internally, the relationships, as you've been alluding to, within the staff, with the artistic product, with the artistic staff product, with the artistic staff and with the patrons the actual steps that people went through and the benefits that they feel and their future thoughts about where they can go with this technology and future technologies that they hope to use in the near future.
Speaker 2:So, as technology is ever-changing, as we know, the book really is about how people are using technology, not necessarily that this is the Bible of the technology that you should be using to solve your particular problem at your organization, but rather here are people who have faced the same issues that you're facing and here are the solutions that they found, why they chose that, so that you can get into their thought process, their research that they did, and find your own way through to reach your own goal and to solve your own issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's where the value of the book is, to be honest, from my perspective, in that, as you say, the technology that you're describing will, with the pace of technological change, be obsolete within an amount of time. But I think a lot of the thinking and the change that you describe will be applicable for a far longer period of time. And you know you remark in, I think, the opening chapter you say change management is a considerable part of the process and the training and skill development are essential, as is socialization across the organization in small steps. And it almost feels like that skills piece and that socialization, to borrow your terminology, is where the impact will really lie, because that's how you start to change behavior and ways of thinking and ways of understanding. And then it's less about a specific piece of software or a specific technology platform and more about people working in a different way, you know, working in a more collaborative way, working in a more audience-centered way, and I think that's really where the value, from my perspective, of digital transformation for the cultural sector lies, in shifting some of these quite deeply embedded ways of working and thinking.
Speaker 1:And I want to talk now about a specific example Jacob's Pillow and the power of their archive. Really, you know, jacob's Pillow is an annual festival, nine, 10 weeks long, and yet having this archive and then thinking about this archive and exploiting it digitally means that they exist exist year round. They can engage with an international audience who may never make the journey to Jacob's Pillow. What lessons do you think there are for cultural organizations more broadly from this particular example?
Speaker 3:I love this example. I love it because, in addition to it being a festival, it is a remote festival in the geography of the United States. It is not a festival that's held in a large town, it's in a small town that sort of comes to life in the summer because there are essentially three larger entities that are having cultural operations. And I think that one of the lessons that I learned from the conversation with Jacob Spillow and Jared Fine, who's currently in that position, sort of manipulating, sort of what are we going to do with?
Speaker 3:this is recognizing they do have this because it's in the culture we're supposed to record and capture dance and artists, voices and their stories. And they recognize that this is a way for people to stay excited about dance, because it's not just the moment in the room, it's what is dance and why is that person telling the story and how am I seeing in longitudinal points? Right, they're telling a story around how a choreographer or a dancer changes over time and that they are intentionally figuring out. Well, this is a really good piece that we can share through a gated price point, right, that could be a consumable piece between when we're having shows and when we're not. This could be a piece that we're sharing on social media, right, and that they're using the nuance of their collection to engage people where they are and with what they want to consume.
Speaker 3:And I think that's a lesson a lot of organizations can learn is capture everything. That's the first lesson. And then don't try to put it in a box it doesn't belong in, and listen to what your audience wants, right. So there's sort of three components to that, but the capture everything is some of the story that I'm hoping organizations can use to apply to foundations, like we need to capture everything, we want to up our technology game in our facilities or we need to up our game in our archival database. Right, how am I keeping this and sorting it in the right way? And just it's sort of thinking about your work with not a one and done but one. In how many ways can we use this?
Speaker 2:You know, another reason that I love the Jacob's pillow example is that dance is ephemeral once the performance is over, it's only memories, but when it's captured and it's captured all the way back to the 30s so I think the history helps create additional future dancers and also patrons. And also, Brett, could you talk about your conversation that you had with the Dallas Symphony, Because I love the way they've captured and the way they have remained open to using everything that they've captured in additional way. They have remained open to using everything that they've captured in additional ways so that it's so much more concise and profitable.
Speaker 3:Frankly, yeah, and I think it's the again capture everything model, recognizing that you have different relationships with different patrons and you also have a national reach if you want one, Right. So one of the stories I loved was they realized they had something and they reached out to a partner right. So they often will reach out to partners, like, in their case, PBS. But they also have recognized there are some pieces of content that subscribers will access when they can't attend a show and they can find a profitability there. They also have content that they can continue to sell in a just digital audio space, but they're capturing everything and using it in really savvy ways. They also have a little bit of an easier time.
Speaker 3:They don't have to deal with some rights issues. They do have to, however, work with their union and they've worked really proactively with their union so that everybody's winning on this right. So the musicians are winning, the organization is figuring the profitability of why we're recording and at the same time, the greater audience, who isn't wanting to necessarily pay, is also getting access. So I like the story because it's a multiple access story and it's a profitability story that it's something they can make money on over time. It took a while and their story is an example of how to approach it Every orchestra is going to be different, right, and so their audience is one audience. Your audience may have a different formula that you need to figure out to make it work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that sort of capture everything model is something I've spoken to Stuart Buchanan at the Sydney Opera House about and it's sort of their approach to almost everything they do. And I think it's also interesting to think really carefully about the purpose and the role of each thing that you do because, as you said, not everything is going to be something that you put on a paywalled video on demand platform. Not everything is going to be appropriate for brand new audiences. Not everything is going to be appropriate for subscribers new audiences Not everything is going to be appropriate for subscribers.
Speaker 1:And if you look at a platform like Netflix or any of the big content platforms, you know they commission content for different purposes. They have some content that's focused purely on, just like bingeable keeping people on the platform. There's other content that's focused on getting people to sign up. You know the sort of big budget, big name stuff. There's other content that's focused on getting people to sign up. You know the sort of big budget, big name stuff. There's other content that's focused on getting people to keep their subscription, and everything has a slightly different role and place in the arc of the customer experience and the customer engagement.
Speaker 3:I would love to bring out a quick quote from the book, if that's okay, because I think you touched on sort of the who, our customers and the director of marketing at Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater, laurie Ferry, was saying you know you have to use data to make these strategic decisions and Denise McGovern at Dallas Orchestra was saying the same thing. Symphony Orchestra, quote we serve our customers in the way they've come to expect in the world. We exist in the same world as Amazon and Target and the rest of them quote but it's recognizing different people want different things in the way they want it and you have to use your data to start discerning and creating different opportunities for them to engage with your value proposition for them.
Speaker 2:I want to highlight one other case in the book and that's Boston Baroque. So Baroque music is a very niche area of music and before the pandemic they did a lot of research and they created their own niche in various platforms for baroque music and they created an entirely separate budget for producing this. They also work with pbs in boston for filming and for recording, but it's that work that they do behind the scenes in putting together this entire business plan, rather than running slapdash at things and trying to recover and trying to invent, as you're going along, that so many organizations are doing. I think they're a perfect example and there's actually a study that was done of them by the Advisory Board for the Arts. That's a great read.
Speaker 3:I will say it is having a plan. We talked to a lot of organizations who are taking that next step that it isn't oh, let's try this. They definitely have a let's try this budget, so to speak, but then they also have a plan of the why. They stop and say what is our technology strategic plan? Where is technology fitting into our business model? And knowing that many arts organizations don't like hearing the word business, but recognizing you have a lot of things you're offering that are mission-centered to different populations and each one of those offerings is going to have a different value, right, and so really strategically thinking, how am I using technology to amplify to all of those people? Is taking strategic, is taking a strategy.
Speaker 1:And maybe as the sort of final area of focus, to jump on a word you used there the idea of value, you know, and understanding digital value. You know working digitally requires change, will often require financial investment. We've already touched on the fact that revenue may take longer than anyone would like to start flowing back directly from that investment. But I've had conversations with organizations who are maybe thinking more broadly about value. It's not just about how many video on demand platform subscriptions we sell. Actually, it's about working. Digitally allows us to be more accessible for certain audiences. It allows us to reach new audiences. It allows us to enhance our profile and our brand. It allows us to have different conversations with different types of partners and potential sponsors. And I'm interested what did the conversations that you have had say about value? How are people thinking about value, measuring value say about value how are people thinking about value, measuring value, justifying, if not the financial investment, then at least the emotional and time investment required to make some of these changes.
Speaker 2:So SFJAZZ I love this example. They give 80% or a high figure of the profits from streaming back to the artists. Their end goal is to make it entirely manageable in a way that they have zero cost to themselves, that every expense is covered by the profits and that it's all going back to the artists. So their view is it's a part of their mission to support the musicians. But then take Boston Baroque their planning in advance of the way everyone consumed digital content during the pandemic and now, after their digital content ended up being over 30% of their earned income post-pandemic, which is remarkably high. So their good planning has now created another way of creating content that is a revenue source, rather than simply staying in front of people.
Speaker 2:Another thing that I want to talk about is the importance of and many of these organizations interviewed in the book highlight this and talk about how they do it is not simply filming what is being done on stage, but understanding that in filming something to stream, they must completely rethink the visuals.
Speaker 2:You know, because it's flat and static if you simply film something that's on a proscenium stage. Scottish Ballet is a perfect example because they have this wonderful warehouse that they set a number of their streaming pieces in, and the camera is going in and around the dancers and they choreograph specifically for streaming. Boston Baroque does two versions of any concert that they plan to stream. One is done at GBH Boston in their production facility, and so it has entirely different angles that are open to the camera, and so it's a very, very different experience. And they have a small audience there and then they go to a large music hall to perform that same concert again in a traditional way. So it's not only the business side of planning the finances, understanding how to build that momentum and working with outside organizations, but understanding that the artistic product itself must differ. So it's a lot of trust, it's an entrepreneurial spirit on both the artistic side and the business side.
Speaker 3:I will add to that the organizations that are succeeding are recognizing they're not competing with themselves because, as Paul said, it is a completely different product. They bring in film directors, people who understand how to direct for the digital camera which those who are creating symphony orchestra performances or creating theatrical performances or dance performances they're staging for this live experience. Some people were bringing external contractors and some people were deciding to work in-house. It's a choice, but I think the piece to that that's that value is recognizing there is a value to it. Most people were discovering that they literally they might have a tiny crossover of audiences who might attend only digitally and might attend only in person. There's only a small crossover. There's no. We're losing people to digital. We also have just spoken with people who discovered it was an extra add-on for people who were sick that night so they could just pivot over to the digital opportunity and that, when you think about what is that mission value?
Speaker 3:You know when I am working in the field, I mean it's. We have a double bottom line in the nonprofit performing arts, our mission and our financial value. And I think of second stage, who you know, their Broadway theater there's. There's streaming shows that are otherwise ticketed as a Broadway show, but their mission is serving the playwright, serving the artists, and in many ways that's where they're finding the biggest opportunity for their digital stream is how this is letting that artist or that group of artists work be seen by more. It's about the artist, not the income. Currently it's a fundraised opportunity, right, it's being supported in a large part by contributed income. So how we're funding what we think of as digital for the value we're trying to extract from it, has to be thoughtfully conceived. I think in many of these organizations.
Speaker 2:You know I love the example of Jacob's Pillow directly related to what you're talking about, brett. They were nervous that because they eventually started offering both a digital summer program at the same time that the live program was happening on site, that there would be too much crossover and attendance would be greatly down on in-person. They found that not to be the case. In fact, it substantially grew the number of people who had eyes on it. It allowed not only new viewers around the world but also people who had participated in the festival, attended but had moved away to re-engage. The other important piece of this is development opportunities. Jacob's Pillow found that their first-time and returning donors grew substantially when they presented full-on digital offerings even as live performances were happening. So you know, always making sure that there is some subtly crafted ask in your digital presentations can go quite a long way, and Jacob's Pillow is certainly an example of huge success in that way.
Speaker 3:And it also ties to some of the education programs. So when you have this digital content, you can engage in arts education programs in ways that are year round, that partner with the local communities, where that you could actually go in. But they're finding in many organizations that teachers are using their materials across the globe because it's accessible online. And in my own institution, you know, I've talked to younger students who said I knew I loved ballet, but I was never able to actually see it because I lived in this small town. But when the pandemic hit and suddenly it was online, I was able to see the American ballet. I was able to see things that I just geographically couldn't see, and so I think the opportunity and the value that is inherent in these points of contact cannot be underestimated.
Speaker 2:You know, I'd like to go from that right into some of the individual artists and the opportunities that they've been using technology to not only grow their fan base and to help the organizations that they work for, but to build for the future. Two instances or two examples I want to talk about. Chun-wai Chan is a principal dancer with New York City Ballet and he started doing social media, sort of to replace Sugar Crush or Candy Crush or whatever that game that he was addicted to, and he is wildly successful and has a huge following in his native China. He goes back there during hiatus and dances and or he was on a television program there, but he's building a fan base there as well. And directly to your point about education he grew up in Guangzhou. He was the only guy in his dance studio and so to learn all of the male dance steps and tricks, he had to learn them from women.
Speaker 2:And he said, now young men have the opportunity to learn those steps and tricks and what it is to be a male dancer directly from him, so it's an added value to dance students across the country, across the world, I should say.
Speaker 2:The other example I want to highlight is jazz singer Jane Monheit, who is amazing and I was so happy to talk to her. You know she talks about what a niche area jazz is in the music industry and how surprisingly it's not as profitable as one would hope, and so for work that she used to pay a number of people to do for her, such as desktop publishing, designing album covers, planning travel, etc. She now, with her husband, is able to take care of a number of that as well as every musician that I talk to teaches online, and so it's creating a healthy financial environment for them that allows them to continue being artists, and she's a huge advocate for up-and-coming singers jazz or opera to take the reins and to be able to control much more of how their career goes forward. She still works with an agent for booking things, for negotiating contracts, because there's a lot of legalese in there and pitfalls, but there's so much now that artists can do themselves through technology.
Speaker 1:And that is an optimistic and hopeful note to end on, I think. Paul and Brett, thank you so much for your time today. I've really enjoyed talking with you. I really enjoyed the book. I would recommend that everyone grabs a copy. It is out now and there are, as you aimed for there to be. There are so many lessons in there for cultural organizations and artists of all shape and size. So thank you for your work on this.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so very, very much.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:And that is everything for today. Thanks for listening. You can find all episodes of the podcast, sign up for the newsletter and find out about our events on our website, thedigitalworks. You can also find us on LinkedIn, now that Twitter is a total garbage fire. Our theme tune is Vienna, beat by Blue Dot Sessions. And, last but not least, thanks to Mark Cotton for his editing support on this episode. See you again soon.