Digital Works Podcast
Talking about all the different things that 'digital' means in the arts, culture and heritage sectors. Tales of success and failure, interrogating the shiny new things and looking at what works (or not) and why, Interviews with digital folks working across the sector and beyond, in-house, consultants, funders, and more.
Digital Works Podcast
Episode 005 - Louise Cohen (Royal Academy of Arts) on the importance of strategy, and getting institutional buy-in
A conversation with Louise Cohen, Head of Digital Content & Channels at the Royal Academy of Arts. We talk about the importance of strategy, how to embed strategies across an institution. Louise's background as a journalist, storytelling, the expansion of the RA's digital capacity, the content projects she's proudest of and more.
Louise's work on content strategy at the RA won a GLAMi Award in 2017 https://www.museweb.net/winners-of-2017-glami-awards-announced/.
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Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Digital Works Podcast, podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. My name's Ash and today's episode, episode number five, features a conversation with Louise Cohen, Louise's head of Digital Content and Channels at the Royal Academy of Arts. And we talk about content strategy, the importance of being audience focused , uh, student newspapers, keeping colleagues engaged, and lots of other things. Enjoy.
Speaker 3:Hi Louise. Hi Ash. Thanks for joining me on this new podcast. Thanks for
Speaker 4:Having me. Exciting.
Speaker 3:So, I, I've sent, I sent you over some bullet points and I guess we'll use those to try and tie everything together, but if you feel like we're going down an interesting tangent, we'll follow that right to the, to the bitter end. Um, and , and my first question, or first thing I'd like to chat about, and this has , uh, been become a weirdly a part of every conversation I've had because I've realized that there is no set path into a digital career. And I think when we've talked in the past, it feels like your background in journalism has sort of influenced your, the perspective that you bring to the job you do now. But what was your path to head of content and digital channels at the Royal Academy of Arts ?
Speaker 4:Oh , my path, well , um, I guess I started out studying art history, so fairly museum traditional on that front, but I did a lot of , uh, student journalism, so shout out to anybody at the University of York or um, York Vision writers and editors, which was kind of , uh, a good starting point for me in thinking about how you tell a story. And I mean, at that point, you know, it was overnighters in the office and greasy pizza and we were like, yeah, this is great. We'll definitely be journalists. Um, and then kind of all rolled out into , uh, the real world and found out that things are a little bit different. Um, but for me, I mean I was really lucky. I got my first job on the Times Arts desk, which was basically my, my dream at the time. And I started out as an editorial assistant on the print edition, and I was responsible for everything from kind of sorting sacks of mail. A large gray sack would arrive thud next to me every day at about three o'clock. Um, so building up from kind of just being around journalism and the team and to doing kind of little bits of writing like listings and then eventually being trusted with slightly bigger pieces and features and doing interviews and actually kind of generally being put through that brighter ringer of, you know, you've written a feature that you're so proud of and you get it back and it's covered in completely red pen and you're like, oh , okay, guess I'm starting again. Um, which at the time I think as a young person always feels really hard, kind of whatever industry you're in. But looking back, I think that was probably one of the most valuable sort of processes of toughening you up and actually realizing that you need feedback from everybody all the time. And also kind of realizing that whatever industry you're going into, you're probably not gonna step out of university and be a hundred percent ready and able to do it. Um, so it was quite a kind of long and slow learning curve, but a really valuable one on that front. Um, I was on the arts desk for about five years and then kind of tried to attach myself to lots of different things within the paper . So I went for a bit to upload the Sunday Times on a Saturday night, which was my first entry to the digital world. That was fun. Um, yeah, lots of , um, trying to rewrite headlines and trying to ignore editors screaming across the newsroom. And I, what else did I do? Oh , I spent , um, time on the diary column. I dunno if you know , familiar with newspaper diary columns. I mean , essentially going to parties and trying to talk to celebrities, which I was absolutely horrific at. It was so bad. I got snubbed by so many celebrities that I can't even like look at on the TV now. Uh , yeah, I mean, good to also work out what's not for you. Absolutely. Really, really bad at that. Um, so yeah, did that for a bit kind of learn, kind of figuring out, is this right for me? Is this not right for me? Um , worked in the newsroom for a little bit and eventually went back to the arts desk to do digital stuff on the arts desk and kind of looking at their channels , uh, and their content from a digital perspective, which actually was kind of an interesting time. It sort of feels, looking back like it was sort of early days of digital and when ,
Speaker 3:When maturity, when , when was this in the sort of, what , what year are we talking?
Speaker 4:Um, I guess it was 2009 Uhhuh <affirmative> . Um, yeah, that's probably about right. Um, it was the year that, well, or during that time anyway , to check the exact year. It was during, it was the time when the Times was looking at going behind a paywall and in fact did go behind a paywall during that period and sort of relaunched itself as this subscription service. And also it's iPad edition at that time was a really big deal. And, you know , I was working on like the first Christmas Day iPad edition, which was a really exciting thing at the time. Um, and kind of thinking about different, like early days of thinking about different ways of users kind of getting involved. Well , we weren't calling 'em users at the time, readers , um, and the idea that actually them talking back is quite valuable and doing it in real time is a new thing. So we launched this online book club where we were asking , um, we were having a , a , like the books editor was having a live debate with readers online, which at the time felt like totally cutting edge. So yeah, that was an interesting time. Um, and I think from then I went to Tate briefly to kind of, I was always very interested in art history and uh , kind of realized that also working in the museum, sorry, in the newspaper world, that the opportunity, you know, they have a couple of pages a week, maybe more , more at the weekends, but I was actually kind of wanted to specialize by that point and was really interested in digital. So I went to work for Tate's digital team for a little bit, kind of introducing a bit of storytelling there. And then it was quite a natural jump for me to join the RA as social and content editor. Um, which in a way is both very similar and not to newspaper life, I guess strangely, I actually always expected when I arrived at the pace would be just really chill in comparison with a newsroom. Um , but amazingly it's not, it's absolutely frantic. Um , I dunno if my other museum colleagues experience this, but life at the RA is very busy. Um , so
Speaker 3:And would you say, like you said, it's , it's as fast-paced as the newsroom on a of, of a big national Yeah ,
Speaker 4:Some days. I mean, it's probably more variable I guess 'cause newspapers have that pace where every day you're working to up to the deadline. But , um, yeah, I mean certainly RA pace is quite exciting and much of the stuff that we are thinking about as newspaper publishers are relevant and valuable to museums. And I kind of, my thing I'm often banging the drum about is that, and why I think it was easy for me to make that jump is that actually we should be thinking much more like a newspaper if we want to be really properly operating in this digital space. And I think the tendency is to be a brand that just says stuff. Whereas newspapers are very good at thinking, you know , they're thinking naturally by, you know, it's their whole business is talking, is engaging a , a reader and being valuable. And if they're not, then they're dead. So as museums, that's what we need to be thinking about. But actually instead, we're often thinking about, oh , what , what do I need to say? Like, what do I need to sell this week? Or what do you know, what , what as a brand am I trying to get out into the universe? So it is a different, it's a different mindset. Um , and it's useful. I think it's , it's useful for me to kind of think back to times stays and think like, how would we have said this? How would we have told this story?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And it , and it feels like the cultural institutions that are , are operating most successfully around content are those that have understood the sort of importance of being able to tell an a story effectively and thinking about who is going to be interested in this and what the reader or the user is actually gonna take away from it, rather than, you know, what are the, what's the, as you say, what's the brand message or what's the sales message or what's the key fact we have to tell someone? Actually it's about thinking of thinking in terms of storytelling. And it, it feels like, and we'll , we'll come onto this in a bit, but you've really managed to, or from an external perspective, it feels like you've really managed to embed that across a number of different strands of activity at the ra. And it feels like a couple of other institutions have had similar success. Um, the welcome collection springs to mind. And I know they've written some interesting stuff that examines their shift in approach to content. Um, but I guess, you know, the RA is a big old institution, 250 years old last year.
Speaker 4:Two , yeah. 251 <laugh>
Speaker 3:251 now. And how, how does digital stuff in all its many guises work on a sort of structural day-to-day operational level at the ra? Is there a centralized digital team in inverted commerce that looks after everything? Is it more embedded? Is there a sort of digital specialist in the education team and the exhibitions team and the whatever? Do you have relationships with external agencies? Is it a bit of all of that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a bit of all of that. Um, well , I mean, we have, the digital team is made up of a number of sub-teams, I guess. So there's the content team, which my team, the product team, we have a team of in-house developers and we also have data and insight teams. And I guess Nick Sharp, our director, is responsible for , um, set , you know, setting the direction, overseeing all of that. And all of those teams are kind of always working in tandem on longer term and shorter term projects, pulling in the right , um, stakeholders when they need to. And I mean, ultimately all the teams are kind of full of people that really know their areas very well and are kind of trusted to deliver on what always very sort of varying timeframes. Um, but yeah, the RA's a a , a big, we always think of it kind of as a big small organization. Um, so there's lots of departments to consult with and there's really, I guess exhibitions probably like digital stuff around exhibitions is reasonably structured. You know, there's a develop exhibition development process, which means every three months or so there's meetings that make that a more structured process. But most projects are fairly , um, free flowing and it's meeting the right people at the time when you need to engaging your stakeholders early enough and all of that. Um, so yeah, it's a kind of constantly rolling ball or many ball , many balls. <laugh> I guess <laugh>
Speaker 3:And that, that structure that sort of, 'cause that's, that's quite a lot of in-house capacity, I suppose, compared to lots of other , um, cultural organizations. Was that the structure that existed when you first joined the ra or have you seen that, that the amount of digital, the amount of digital roles in-house, has that grown over the time you've been with the organization?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it definitely has. So when I joined, I think there were four of us. And in fact the year before that, there was one person, Amy McPherson shout out , who's just left us after 12 and a half years. Um, so yeah, at that time we were one content, one web, one assistant, one head of department, and one product, and we were outsourcing our development. I mean, since then, I think the organization has understood the importance of digital to a much greater degree and , and for particular projects at particular times, the team has had to grow , um, to kind of accommodate that. So we brought our developers in-house. We , um, expanded our product team very slightly. We've , um, grown the content team a little bit, but it always feels, I mean, I think that , so we've grown from about four to about, or from one to about 16, but it doesn't feel, I think the demand for digital and the digital landscape in that time is so much bigger. Like there's almost no comparison. Um, so it's kind of not as though we, we don't sort of feel as though we've got sort of tons of resource that we're just like, whoa, we could do anything. Um, but yes, certainly it's recognized that digital is a thing in a much greater way than it was at that time, which is great.
Speaker 3:And have , have you found that having , uh, the , these, these specialists in-house sort of on hand , maybe slightly more available to the broader organization than if you were working with external people, has that, does that feel like people are more willing to engage in digital conversations around digital conversations around how digital could intersect with their work, which may be very non-digital? Or is it still , um, something that you have to sort of proactively go out and get people bought into?
Speaker 4:A bit of both. I mean, generally, I'm always really surprised in a good way at how open and interested people are in digital at where I work. Um, but it, you know, varies from team to team and project to project. And I think one thing that I've found is that the more you invest in engaging people and bringing them along with you and what you're trying to do, the more successful you'll be with the project. And because ultimately we're talking about a cultural shift here as well as any single project that you're working on. So, you know, we make quite a lot of effort to bring data with us to our meetings to kind of think about, so this stakeholders, this person, this department wants to get this out of the project, and actually we wanna help them do that. And here's, here's how we are thinking about moving towards that objective. And also thinking about that longer term digital objective at the same time. So whatever your objectives are, do they match with the bigger picture? And trying to explain all of that in our work with them , um, rather than just kind of being like, no, we're doing it like this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think that, that bringing people with you is always, what am I trying to say? Where , where I think I've seen digital professionals taking the time to engage with colleagues who may feel like they, they can't engage with digital, they don't have the vocabulary, they don't perhaps feel like they have the technical understanding. I think where people have spent the time and made the effort to, to really properly engage with those colleagues is where I think the best stuff seems to happen, where organizations feel like they're operating most happily in with digital projects or projects with a digital element.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, totally . I mean, the other side of that is that the , the people on the , that we're talking about here are usually like experts in their field, and actually they're vital to the , they're what's needed to make this like a rich, valuable experience or whatever it is that we're producing with them. So actually them being engaged and understanding is kind of, you know, completely critical to the project.
Speaker 3:And I mean, you , you spoke a little bit just then about the , about the bigger picture about strategy, and I know, well, I've had you speak at previous , uh, digital works events about content strategy at the ra, but how does that, how is that strategy developed? How is that strategy then articulated to the organization? What challenges have you found in getting people to buy into that, in sort of embedding that across the organization? Because I mean, I'm sure we're both aware of numerous digital and content strategies that were written put on a shelf and sort of never revisited, whereas it feels that, certainly when I've spoken to you about this in the past and when I've spoken to colleagues at the RA that everyone really understands the , the strategy around content and what you're trying to achieve and how you're achieving that. What was the, the process in in developing that? Because it feels like the model that you are working with could be, I mean, none of this is gonna be able to be just cut and pasted to any organization, but it feels like there's a really well developed model that you have come up with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I guess the process was, so it was a couple of years back now, we went through a process of thinking about the RA's goals , uh, or who we were talking to at at that point, and then who we wanted to be talking to and laying out a bunch of objectives, which, you know, were not rocket science objectives, to be honest. They're probably the objectives across many, many digital strategies. And they work growing our audience, deepening the engagement that we have with them or that they have with us , um, converting them to customers and retaining all of that good stuff in those other three. And we made a commitment to ourselves as an organization that we were going to think very deeply about our audiences and all the decisions that we made. So instead of saying, we've got an exhibition, or we want to say this about it, we would think about it as a Venn diagram. So these are the things that make the RA really ra. So for us, that's, we are run by living artists. Um , we are a platform for debate , um, a few other sort of values in that area. And we know that we're trying to speak to these audiences and they're particularly interested in say, making or , um, political discussion. And we would think, okay, so what can we make that lands in that sweet spot? And once we'd sort of established that as a sort of almost visual way of thinking about it , um, we did a bit of a road show . So that was the early stages of the strategy where we spent probably, I think an hour with every department in the ra. And we talked them through the data of where we'd come from and how we got to these, these sorts of visual diagrams and gave them examples of what that could mean for their areas, and kind of introduced the idea of this is something that you can think about yourself and these are the ways that we are thinking about it. So early discussions, we came up with a bunch of formats that came out of it, which was a really good way to kind of just kickstart the content, get it rolling. So regular say article series that we would put out each month that sort of conform to the ideas and the strategy. And I mean, since then we've, it's been reasonably free flowing and ad hoc to be honest. And we're now at the point a couple of years later where we are looking at how we re-implement and adjust and , um, think about particularly how we plan content. Because one of the things that I've noticed , uh, at the RA is that we're an organization that does a lot of things. So we have an art school, we have a collection, we have our exhibitions and many more things. And we in the past have had a tendency to actually plan content around those things individually. So you'd have a project plan for an exhibition, you'd have one for this season at the schools or whatever it is. Um, and actually if you put all those , all that content end to end , like individually, it might be great. It might be interesting to the user and it might embody our values, but actually we might be massively repeating ourselves or we might be not covering at something that's a really important part of our identity. So we're actually thinking at the moment about how can we make sure that our planning as an organization, again, a bit more like a publisher, is a bit more holistic and outward looking . So like looking ahead to the upcoming season and thinking about how can we be from what's happening at the RA and from what our values are and from what we know our users are interested in right now, how can we be the most ra and the most interesting and valuable to our users in these awesome new spaces that we have to talk to them that we didn't have before?
Speaker 3:And have you, or were , were there any challenges in working with colleagues to shift the perspective, you know, shift the perspective so that you are more in the middle of that Venn diagram, you know, saying things in the way that you want to say them, but that are about, or at least acknowledging that , that the audience needs and desires? It feels that sometimes as cultural institutions, there's perhaps a tendency towards a broadcast mentality at more of a top down , you know, we have, we know what we say , we are experts in the art and we know what's important and interesting about it, so we are going to say that and people will receive it. And it's , that feels like quite a, a a one way relationship with audiences or readers, whereas we're , it feels like what you are describing is not completely audience driven . It's not saying, you know, vote on the thing that you want us to write an article about and then we'll go and do that. But it is far more responsive to or appreciative of the people that are ultimately going to be reading this. And was that , was that a challenge to, to get people to, to slightly shift their perspective?
Speaker 4:Yeah, definitely. I mean, it, we, we definitely try to think closely about what people are going to respond to. And I think that's always a slight tension with an arts organization. 'cause to a degree we exist to be sort of cultural leaders and our exhibitions are providing something new to audiences that they potentially, you know, they may not know the artist who's being exhibited or the , um, you know, the , the play that's being shown. Um , and we are as sort of cultural leaders are showing them something new and enriching. So it's kind of balancing that with what we know about people. And in a way, I think that what we know often comes down to behavior. It , it may not even be what they want to consume. Uh, it may be how they want to consume it, and based on what we know they've liked, what do we think we, how could we be relevant? Um, but yeah, it's a constant , um, it's a rolling challenge of communicating that around the organization, kind of getting everybody on board . I mean, it's , I don't think that job is ever done. And one thing actually that I was a bit sort of disheartened to realize after launching the content strategy was that we had this kind of big bang with it and actually all the, those, that road show we did with it around the academy actually was went so well and everyone was really excited and we were like, cool, we've , we've , we've , we , like , we've got buy-in, like done it <laugh> yeah, it's , it's all good. And then a year later, two years later, like 50% of the staff are different and you're like, okay, we have to , we have to keep doing this. We have to start again with some teams or , uh, keep, you know, keep finding the opportunities to kind of , uh, introduce our ways of thinking because you can't assume that anybody knows where you are coming from, from, I mean, why would they, how would they know how we were thinking about this if we didn't tell them? Um, so yeah, it's, it's ongoing, but I do think genuinely it's getting better. It's easier. And I think things like, like digital teams getting better at handling data and ways of visualizing data and ways of talking about data mean that we can show other teams what we're achieving and when they can see an example of something that actually has, you know, reached a million people versus something that has reached, you know, 30 that never happens, by the way <laugh> , um, they can really see the value of it and kind of get on board a bit more easily, I think.
Speaker 3:And it , it feels like as , as you said that that sort of advocacy work, I guess is never done, you know, because even if someone was really bought in two years ago, their role might have shifted, their priorities might have shifted, the things that they're being told is important, might have changed, and there's a misalignment can then start to form unless you are aware of that and helping them to understand how the , the digital aspects of, of what they might be doing can be, that's a really badly asked question.
Speaker 4:No, no, totally. Well, I think it's so, I , I think it's a really important area and actually the thing I'm trying to remember, and it increasingly like trying to be more empathetic in that process and trying to remember that there's no reason why other teams would know how we're thinking about this. And actually I think there can be a tendency for digital teams to sort of find themselves engaged in combat for no good reason. And that's not fun for anybody. And I know that none of the teams involved, like, no , none of the co like colleagues, digital or otherwise would want to go into a conversation like that. So it's kind of just thinking a bit , a bit more like a human at times as well. Like how can we, how can I give this person like, they're a smart person, they're working here, like they've clearly got expertise that I need and I wanna share what I'm thinking about with them, so how can I make sure it's a really good, valuable kind exchange?
Speaker 3:So I'm, I'm aware of a huge number of different content initiatives, if you wanna call them that, that the RA has undertaken. And I'm really interested in from your, your perspective, what, what is the stuff that you are really proud of and you think it has really worked, and maybe we can dig into the reasons why success happens, but also I'm, I'm always interested in the things that seem like a really great idea but didn't quite hit the mark, and then trying to unpack why, why they perhaps didn't work.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, the thing that always jumps out to me is life drawing live that my team have done a couple of times over the past , uh, couple of years. And really it's not a crazy idea. It's taking a life drawing class, a very traditional experience that the RA sort of can own with authority, something we've been doing for 250 years and take it apart and put it back together for a digital user. So it was what we think was the world's first live streamed life drawing class, and we broadcast it from the Royal Academy's life room . And if you were in the room, it probably felt a lot like a normal life drawing class, but actually for the user at home, it was actually designed for that. It was designed for the camera rather than the people in the room. So we had people around the world taking part and doing drawing for the first time , um, from, you know, Mexico, New Zealand, Nicaragua. Um, it was quite amazing that I think we, it was an experiment, you know, we hadn't, it was a big production and we hadn't done anything on that scale before. And it was kind of amazing for us to see that firstly the appetite for our audiences to actually get involved with art and be creative themselves. And yeah, the volume of response was much greater than we expected. So that was a really interesting digital first project where we felt like, oh , okay, there's an appetite here, there's something. And particularly the ra it , it felt really right for us as a project. I think, you know, we're run by living artists. We're about the act of making, it was took place in the RAs schools that , you know, in a historic place sitting on the benches where we think Constable and Millet may themselves have sat. So it, it felt like a very sort of authentic project for us, but it was a hundred percent not just sticking a camera in a life drawing class, which I think was the difference , like the quite subtle but critical difference that made it a project that really worked for people's lives also, because they , it was an hour and a half long, but they could tune in for, you know, 10 minutes if they wanted. They could play it back. They could sit with their kids in front of the tv , um, or they could watch it on Instagram. So , uh, it was kind of about making something that's actually very structured in the way it's delivered, usually like you come to us or nothing. And making it work for audiences in the way that they consume digital, which I think is really the thing about, I mean, the thing, the thing that comes to mind about a project that maybe didn't hit the mark. I mean, we've done a couple of really high production live streams and some of them, you know, it's always slightly, you never quite know how it's gonna go on the night. Could be, there's something else big happening in the world and people just aren't , uh, interested in watching live at that moment. But we've done one or two high production tours of the galleries and some are more popular than others. But interestingly I found for how much work goes into preparing a live tour of a gallery, I mean, the take the engagement from the audience has been relatively low at times. And I think there's probably a number of reasons for that. Like, if I really think about it, I mean, one, why is that live? Like what is the benefit of, of doing that live? There's, I mean, I suppose unless you're doing sort of live q and a or there's some sort of performance or I dunno , something that makes it feel really like it's happening, happening at that moment and you're part of it, there's not loads of benefit. And secondly, I think there's a thing of, it's slightly, it might be valuable to a user, but it actually also could be a case of a museum kind of trying to pick up what it does in the physical space and just put it in the digital space and expect that everyone's just kind of absorbed that and uh , consume it in the same way. And actually, I think the reason life drawing live was so successful, like I say, was that it was on other people's terms and it was really thinking about how people are consuming content and giving them a range of platforms that they could arrive at it at . And so I think sometimes maybe we need to be a bit less literal when we're thinking about how to make digital experiences , um, thinking about how to redesign them. Like that thing I say of taking them apart and putting them back together for, I don't know , Instagram tv.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And it , and it's interesting that you pick those two examples. 'cause I think, you know, if you zoomed right out, they're , you , you could justifiably say they're , they're sort of two examples of, of the same thing in inverted commas. But the fact that the life drawing project, as you say, allowed users to, to dictate the terms of engagement, whereas the, the live tour was, was far more of it feels like in the , in the past, lots of digital projects in this sector have been about sticking a camera in front of a thing that's happening anyway, and just getting it online. And actually it's, it's not really thinking or changing the design of that experience for, for a digital or a user who's going to be engaging digitally.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Which I think is a really interesting thing with audio as well, because I think there's a , there's a big question around, we're thinking a lot about podcasts at the moment and you know, do you just record, we have an amazing events program. There is some value for us in just recording a digital event. Um, but should we be doing that or should we be, you know, again, taking that experience apart and thinking about the audio experience. And in a way, I guess there's , there's a place for both. Um, but yeah, I think we're moving more towards a sort of digital first approach generally, you know, where resource allows, you know, we are lucky that we've been able to do , um, some of these slightly bigger productions, but they're not every day occurrences. And you know, I think often it's also about thinking about what you can do with, you know , a really light quick approach. It might not be a big livestream life drawing class , um, it might be thinking cleverly about an Instagram story or , but I think, yeah, the main thing is about making sure that experience is designed for that person in that place.
Speaker 3:This is , this is something that I've, I've talked about with a couple of other people, but it feels like again, the , the organizations that are making the most impact with digital, that are most comfortable with digital as an aspect of their activity are also the organizations that are quite clear about what they're not doing and quite clear about how they make decisions around digital activity. Is that part of the discussion around digital at the r a i it as a result of having the , the structure of your strategy? Does that allow you to say, you know, at the moment we are not gonna be looking at TikTok , you know, LinkedIn isn't important for us, et cetera.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, I would say it's a combination of that and kind of constantly reassessing it. But yeah, I mean we do have to be clear, like TOS a good example because it , you kind of look at it and you think, wow, there's an enormous opportunity there, but is that the right opportunity for the ra? And it may be , um, but I think at the moment it's not. And similarly, you know, in the past we've had , um, discussions about Snapchat and yeah, I think you do have to be quite clear about your priorities or you sort of fall into the trap of doing a million things and none of them well . So yeah, I guess, yeah, we definitely do have those discussions. Uh , but I also kind of quite aware of trying to remain open and if somebody has an idea that we feel really kind of hits the mark on that platform, then let's try it. And kind of not being afraid to just have a go and fail and see how it goes. Um, but, you know, hopefully the thinking is if we're keeping our own identity in mind and who we're trying to talk to in mind, any experiment, like it might fail. It might not be the , you know, the best piece of content or it might not kind of catch light with our audiences, but it won't be like an embarrassing kind of horrific failure because it was still, you know, felt right for us as an organization and I'm kind of well intended for the people we were trying to make it for . So, and
Speaker 3:This is something I've been increasingly aware of over the last couple of years, and more and more people are coming to, to us at substrates to talk about content. And it feels that on the whole content being produced by bicultural organizations has, or rather cultural organizations don't seem brilliant at producing digital content. I think again, generalizations abound, actually the museum and galleries, sector organizations who are sort of collections driven are, from my pers perspective, better at producing the sort of narrative content than the performing arts sector. And do you have a , a perspective on a, whether or not that's true and b, what the reasons behind that might be? It feels that content has been the preserve of marketing departments to promote a thing rather than curatorial or artistic departments to extend the storytelling aspect that is, you know, that seems vitally important to every cultural institution.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think , um, it's probably the case across the arts that budgets tend to be small and tight. So I think there is often a tendency to look at the short term or it's very easy there , you know, there's always an immediate need to meet. And I think that can lead to a sort of short term mindset of we need to promote this show or this exhibition , um, or, you know, whatever the project is. And I think that's, in my mind, that is, that sort of leads you to try and shortcut your way to content , um, sort of as though you can just kind of take a quick route past the story and land in people's inboxes and hope that they just buy the thing that you are promoting. Um, whereas actually I'm always trying to talk about the long game, which is really actually a difficult sell in a way because I can't show you that this story is gonna sell a million tickets. Well we don't have a million tickets, but I can't , you know, I can't, it's often difficult. We know that there is a correlation. We know that there is value from making a really amazing story told by video around our exhibitions. Um, we know that it drives word of mouth and that our users audiences value it and that it is a way that they find out about shows. Um, but it's usually earlier in their sort of decision-making journey. And you know, of course the way people make decisions isn't necessarily like, Ooh , video checkout, bye, thank you. So trying to explain that to stakeholders that storytelling is part of a much wider, bigger picture and part of us getting people to trust us and be interested in us as an organization and also see that we've got something of value to offer them generally that will contribute. I mean, just makes sense, doesn't it, that will contribute to them how they make decisions around our adverts and , um, so our , our digital ads that are directly, you know, marketing, sales pitches , um, or whether they choose to become a member and all of those things. So yeah, it's kind of like getting people to think about their own relationship, I guess with like, how would you view an organization that tried to sell you something versus someone that told you a story that was interesting and valuable for you and then made you think about something else and was actually part of a wider conversation. Um, so yeah, I think there is definitely, that is quite a prevalent mindset in the arts for that reason mostly. But I think there's also a number of people who are really starting to do amazing things. I mean, for me, one of the really clearest interesting examples is the Tenement Museum who've got this podcast in New York and they look at stories about immigrants in New York, which is sort of their mission statement as a museum. And their podcast just does that as a podcast. It doesn't promote what they're , what they've got in the museum, it's doing their mission in a digital space, which I think is really where the opportunity is. Um, so I think people are getting that, people are getting that more and more and the more success stories that we can see help us, you know, make that argument.
Speaker 3:You know, as you said , as we were saying earlier, the the work of the work of a digital team has never done, we, I think everyone that works in a , in a digital role is attracted by to the, is attracted by the fact that it is always changing, that it is always evolving, that there are always new ideas and new things that need consideration. What are the things that, that your , you and your team are excited about that you are seeing come on the horizon? Whether that's around sort of new formats, new platforms, new technologies. Is there anything that you are like, yes, this is really exciting, 2020, we are gonna do this new thing or 2021 we're gonna be considering?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we've been thinking a lot about, I mean it's not a new thing by any means, but Instagram, tv, we've been doing some experiments again around just being really focused on digital first and designing video projects specifically for Instagram tv and seeing that the audience there for it is so actually much more engaged than they are on other channels. So we've got some fun stuff coming up on Instagram, tv, some we've been trying out some animation in some different formats. So that's quite interesting and kind of ties into a bigger picture for us, which I think is a , a focus for us at the RA this year and probably a lot of digital teams, which is that mobile , um, you know, again, not a new thing by any means, but is becoming absolutely critical that we are at the top of our game in terms of how we're thinking about serving content to people who are consuming it on their phones. Um, I think we know how have about half of our traffic from mobile and it's increased something like 90% in the last year. So thinking about the both the content we are making and thinking about how it lands, if you are , um, reading or watching or listening on your phone. Um, I guess the other thing is just trying to think a bit differently about platforms. It's been really interesting with sort of the rise of over the past few years, kind of podcasts kind of being a thing in the nineties and then the on-demand culture kind of coming and the , that kind of almost being uh , sort of resurgence moment for podcasts and the sort of platforms associated with that kind of on demand culture, Netflix and Audible and you know, all the thinking about the different ways that people are consuming culture, I think gives us, as publishers, and I'm calling us publishers now, not brands , um, new, you know, just a much wider , uh, array of places that we can be telling our stories and interesting partners to work with. So though we're just kind of thinking a little bit about all of those things right now. And we're also, yeah, as I say, working on a bit of a strategy refresh, which may lead to who knows.
Speaker 3:And, and my last question is , is one that I didn't send you in advance, but I saw on Twitter this morning Rob Ton who's um, head of digital, I think up at the National Museum of Scotland, asked what's the one question or statement you find yourself repeating time and again to colleagues and collaborators? For me it's always, who is this for? Is there something that you find yourself coming back to like a broken record?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, not to just kind of like jump on Rob's bandwagon. I probably, it's probably the same, but I guess on a related note , um, and it , this is probably more back in the early days of trying to get the content, get people to think about content strategy a bit more , uh, it was, it doesn't matter how good it is, if no one sees it, it's completely pointless. Um, so yeah, I say I say that a lot. Yeah, we often think about what else do we say in our team? Um, yeah, bring data to meetings. Um, we don't market the ra, we are the ra And I think that is, that generally applies like any project I'm kind of saying like, not how can we market this? How can we share this? How can we be this, how can we do this? Um, so yeah, maybe one one or all of those. What about you, Ash? What would yours be? I
Speaker 3:Would say my reply to Rob is I said my , uh, my three were, why is this a priority <laugh> ? And often the answer to that is someone on the board got excited about it or we got some funding that we didn't think we were gonna get. And so this is suddenly our priority. Um, a digital thing won't solve that on its own. Often it feels that people, people view doing a digital project as the sort of standalone panacea solution to their, to their problems. Whereas actually I think , uh, you know, as you've articulated that digital activity works best when it's the link in a chain. Um, and the , and then the last one is, you know, echoing what you've said, how will you tell whether or not this is successful? It feels like lots of people are in such a rush to do the thing that , that it , it doesn't always feel that the thought's being given to, you know, why are we doing this? And then how do we tell whether or not it's successful?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. And also, I mean, why are we doing it? Who is it going to and how are they gonna get it? Like, do we just expect them to like come and search our website for it 'cause they're not gonna
Speaker 3:Build it and they will come. <laugh> still seems to be a , an assumption which we need to challenge. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> , thanks Louise.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Nice to talk to you.
Speaker 2:So thank you very much to Louise for taking the time to talk with me earlier this year. If you want to contact either of us, I'm on Twitter at big little Things. Louise is on Twitter at Louise a Cohen . And Digital Works is Digital Underscore Works underscore . Until next time, look after yourselves. Bye.
