Digital Works Podcast
Talking about all the different things that 'digital' means in the arts, culture and heritage sectors. Tales of success and failure, interrogating the shiny new things and looking at what works (or not) and why, Interviews with digital folks working across the sector and beyond, in-house, consultants, funders, and more.
Digital Works Podcast
Episode 017 - Robin Cantrill-Fenwick (Baker Richards) on pricing and distributing digital activity, segmentation models, and consumer psychology
We sit down with Robin Cantrill-Fenwick, CEO of Baker Richards, to discuss the findings of their Culture Restart audience sentiment tracker. We explore how audiences are feeling about returning to in-person cultural experiences (whenever that may be), emerging insights around pricing and distribution of digital content, segmentation models, and consumer psychology.
Hello.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the digital works podcast. The podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. Today's episode, episode 17, the penultimate episode of 2020 is a conversation with Robin Cantrell. Fenech Robin is the CEO of Baker Richards Baker Richards are a international provider of consulting services and software for the cultural sector. Baker Richard's is one third of the insights Alliance alongside Indigo. And one further the insights Alliance have been running a monthly audience insights tracker that they call the culture restart tracker. And it's that research that Robin and I discuss in our conversation along with recommendations on books to read about consumer psychology, whether pre 20, 20 segmentation models are still as applicable in the new, more digital world we're currently grappling with. Add much more
Speaker 1:Enjoy. Hi Robin.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining me today. Hello Ash. What a pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really looking forward to talking about some of the work that you've been doing, um, at Baker Richards as part of the insights Alliance with colleagues that one further and Indigo. So I think that research that you've been doing, you know, this year has proven invaluable for, for organizations as they start thinking about how they might reopen, but equally how they react to the, all the changes that we've experienced over over 2020. Um, so today we're going to talk specifically about some of that research, which is all available, um, for people to look at on the Baker Richards website. Uh, we are going to talk yes about digital stuff and pricing digital activity, and people's willingness to pay for that sort of thing. But also I think, you know, people listening to this, uh, many of them work in cultural organizations. Um, obviously we are still very much in the midst of the pandemic and the question about how we reopen when we reopen what people's, uh, motivations and worries are around that I think are, are salient to so many of the people tuning in. So maybe that's where we'll start. Um, and, and this culture restart audience tracker is, uh, a monthly piece of work that you're doing. Um, I believe you've got full data up to the end of November and you've already got data coming in for December. So it's extremely timely. And I wonder maybe a starting point is, you know, what is the general sentiment that's coming from audiences? How are they feeling about engagement with culture, culture and attendance? Yes.
Speaker 3:So we launched the culture, restart audience sentiment, uh, tracker back in, uh, October. Um, we felt that was the right time to launch it because looking ahead, it seemed like our time was coming, um, where, uh, events were going to move in a way that would make it really interesting to track audience sentiment, um, such inherent in a tracking survey, like a culture restart that the responses that you get changed over time as the facts change. And one of the things that we really wanted to ensure that we achieved with culture restart was to just, uh, get out there what audiences are thinking at any given moment, not just for, um, uh, the venues and the producers, many of whom have done their own research and their own surveying, but actually just recognizing that there is a whole world of freelancers. There's a whole industry of agencies like yours and mine and other, uh, down the line businesses who have a vested interest in knowing what audiences are really thinking about returning to, to culture. So, um, you're absolutely right as we record this in mid December, um, I am looking at the full results for October and November and this, and I should say that, um, that covers around seven and a half thousand responses, um, from the UK and with a bias towards more frequent attenders. And one of the things that we're really working on over the next few months is trying to get under the skin of those infrequent attenders, who are, who are so important to the sector, but right now it's focused on the kind of loyalists. Um, and what we're seeing is an increase in confidence. So, um, we have, uh, an overall net confidence score that we measure, which goes from minus 100% to plus 100%. And from October to November, that's written from plus 47 to plus 54. So there's an overall confidence, um, that is clearly born out of people who have had an opportunity to attend the culture have had a good and safe time and are feeling more confident about returning in the future. Um, we are seeing that, uh, there's a real knock on effect of the announcements around, um, uh, vaccination. So although overall confidence of returning has gone up. So too has the proportion of people saying that they won't actually come back, uh, to a physical performance until, uh, they have been vaccinated. So that's risen to now a quarter of respondents who are not planning to return to culture until they've had a vaccination, which potentially means that the, the recovery, the recovery of live in person shared performance is linked quite closely to, uh, the rollout of vaccination in the UK. And, and interestingly, even with all the talk of vaccination that we've had over the last six weeks. So, um, Pfizer's announcement about their vaccination came out very early in November. Um, even knowing all that we're still in a situation actually where 72% of audiences say they would be uncomfortable returning to a venue with no face covering and no social distancing. Um, so there's still some way to go in terms of audience recovery, but confidence is up. And I think actually we can take the sign, uh, the signal on vaccines to be a real positive that people are seeing that as a major contributor to returning to live in-person culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And obviously that's, that's encouraging to hear that things are trending in the direction that we would all hope. Um, and I think it's, you know, understandably, uh, been a hugely difficult year for people. We very much all been at the mercy of events outside our control. However, I think it's really interesting in your research to see that, um, people who have already attended a, uh, a cultural experience where there were sort of COVID safe, um, things in place, social distancing, you know, uh, clear signage mask, wearing hand sanitizing, timed, entry, contactless payments, all those sorts of things. It seems that those people are then once they've had that experience, they feel much safer and more comfortable and more confident about having another experience. Absolutely.
Speaker 3:What does this tell us that the venues who have been able to open in a COVID secure way are getting an awful lot, right? They're doing things well, this of course is what's underpinning the enormous frustration that we all feel around the way that cultural venues are among the first to shut when, um, areas go into higher tiers and so on, because actually what we are seeing is that audience confidence in having a safe and pleasant experience is really high, you know, Bernard Donahue, who, uh, is the chief executive of the association of leading visitor attractions has for a very long time. Now been saying that when it comes to the world of, uh, visitor attractions, the response is about sanitizing, the venue and not the experience. And I think that cultural organizations have been doing that tremendously well. Um, you know, and that is reflected in some of the numbers that we see. So, um, when we surveyed audiences in October 13% of people anticipated that once they felt comfortable returning to culture, they would attend less often than they, than they had previously. That's dropped now by five points to 8% of people who think they will attend less often. So venues are, are getting an awful lot, right. Um, we've seen some really excellent practices around communication, um, as well as around safety, which is so important. Um, the survey does point to things like booking flexibility, um, accessibility of a refund, confidence around that being a really important factor to get people back into venues. And we've seen all sorts of practices around that, you know, everything from, um, uh, people like, you know, the extra North theater who have a policy where if anybody in the party has been affected by COVID, um, then you can contact them and get a refund, which is a really, really broad policy. And they say, you know, contact us when you can. So it's not intensely, rules-based, it's human language if you've been affected by it, let us know. Um, uh, and we'll see you, right. Which I think is a great approach for those venues that can do that through, to an increase in interest and uptake of booking protection products. Um, which of course from a venues perspective can be really fantastic in that they, uh, increased people's confidence in attending and, and also are also often a re uh, a revenue stream. Um, so yeah, the, the message is coming through loud and clear that people are willing to come back, but they do want that safety net of what happens if they themselves are directly affected by COVID.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think, you know, as this whole thing stretches on longer than I think most of us thought it might do. I wonder if you have any sense of, you know, just how important that sort of, not just being flexible, but communicating overtly and clearly that flexibility. And as you said, that sort of human voice human tone to communications come through loud and clear. I mean, if you look at other industries, you look at the airline industry, for example, um, lots of, lots of people who had suddenly had holidays, they couldn't go on quite happily took vouchers, um, or rebooked flights for 12 months. Hence because, you know, there was all the press coming out that the airline industry was on the verge of collapse and what those people are now finding is that, you know, that initial Goodwill shown by customers towards corporations is not being reciprocated back the other way. And I wonder if you have any, I don't know if you have any data, but a sense, you know, looking at this at this situation, actually it feels that the cultural sector has responded in a far more nuanced and sort of emotionally intelligent way. But I wonder if you have a sense of the importance of continuing that, that way of operating.
Speaker 3:I think that's absolutely right. I think you've hit the nail on the head that the, the cultural sector actually in its response has been very good at this. Um, uh, audiences are, uh, very, very clear that they are willing to, uh, I should say loyal audiences from the culture restart tracker are willing to hand over their money, um, to a cultural provider. If they're confident that if you like that money will be treated with respect that if the performance is canceled or that if they themselves are unable to attend, that they will get that money back. I think that cultural organizations have been very respectful of that and are being rewarded, what we are, of course, also seeing, which is, I think unavoidable for the moment is, uh, a marked tendency towards last minute booking. So, um, where we don't have, uh, incentives in place to encourage early booking, um, where we don't have that kind of absolute confidence in place that, that you have that rock solid guarantee of being able to get your money back. If your circumstances change, then of course, we're seeing audiences, um, tend to book, um, uh, at the last minute that's not interest, not in the interest of the venue. Um, uh, it's not in the interest of the producers. Uh, it's not in the interests of the audiences often because the longer they wait to book the, the, the less attractive inventory, the less attractive seating they'll have available to them, the less attractive time slots. But you can absolutely understand that there is a really substantial amount of caution around handing over money, which is not just about what does the cultural organization do and what it behaves like, but you're absolutely right. It comes from the analogs from, from, from, uh, other industries, other experiences that we have. And if the general sense that we have is organizations are very keen to give, um, get our money out of us, but not give it back. Um, then that will affect, uh, booking conscience.
Speaker 2:And I, you know, you touched on, um, sort of how this year has impacted expected patterns of behavior, you know, around how far in advance people book. Um, but I also wonder, you know, you indicated that many of the respondents, um, for the work that you're doing are more regular attenders to cultural, um, experiences. And certainly speaking to people that run cultural organizations, um, who have attempted to reopen in the little pockets of time they've been given, you know, no one's making money during that time, but I know a lot of people were keen to reopen so that they could try and get ensure that people were staying in the habit of attending cultural, um, experiences. And there's this phenomenon that you mentioned in your report, you turned the six month phenomenon, um, that for some people who've said, you know, we'll come back in six months, actually that six months seems to be, uh, a bit of a moving a moving feast. That is definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, and this is, uh, so go on, ask, ask, ask, ask a question.
Speaker 2:Uh, I was just going to say, do you think that there is, I don't know if danger is over over it, but you know, 2020 has shattered so many norms and for people who perhaps went to the theater once a month, or once every few months actually now having not been for, you know, it's probably going to be a year or more, is there a danger that they may not resume that habit, or they may not resume that happy at quite as
Speaker 3:Regularly? Yeah, that absolutely is. Um, uh, what we have seen for these loyal attenders is a shift towards attending the culture, which is available. So people who historically would have, uh, attended drama or live music and so on, have moved to cinema for the brief period that cinema is very open, uh, or move to outdoor heritage because they want to stay culturally engaged. There was a whole world of audience beyond that who are what we would call infrequent loyalists. So these are the people who are in the habit of coming once or twice a year as a special night out. Um, um, those are the people who the industry is really going to be fighting to get back along with, of course, you sort of inbound international tourists, who we have very little control over when, when those audiences would turn getting people into the habits of, uh, theater attending, uh, and, and more broadly arts and cultural attendance is one of the most useful things that organizations can do. It's why so many organizations focus on a frequency strategy or loyalty programs, because the more, uh, it's self-fulfilling, the more you get people come back, the more that they will come back in the future. Um, so when you look at, um, some of the work that, uh, you know, I think of a client of ours, the Royal Danish theater over in Copenhagen, um, uh, really kind of thought about how they link up their digital and their real world, uh, offer. And so they created, uh, a program called scene change, which is priced on a par with, uh, Netflix. So for around about 10 pounds a month, if you're under 25, you can attend an unlimited amount of in-house production at the Royal Danish theater. So if you want to, uh, explore opera and drama and other different types of performance, um, then you have, uh, so you subscribe to an app, um, and, uh, you can book from 14 days in advance. So it recognizes that last minute booking behavior, um, you don't see exactly what seat you'll be sitting in until six hours before the performance. Um, but for 10 pounds a month cancelable at any time, um, you can, uh, experiment and experience as much live culture as you like. It's one of the ways that, uh, one theater has adapted to, uh, you know, a very, um, a rapidly changing world. Um, but of course the, the more, uh, reluctant that audiences are to re attend in person, actually, of course, the greater the opportunity for digital. And we have seen a huge amount of, uh, innovation in that space over the last few months, as you well know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And that's a nice segue maybe into the specifics of the explosion in digital activity we've seen this year and, you know, it's, it's been an area that the cultural sector on the whole has not, you know, hugely engaged with delivering, you know, under these horrible term, but cultural product through digital channels, um, to the same degree as they would through their in-person, um, programs. And I think, you know, for someone like me, that's really exciting to see that the cultural sector really grappling with that question. Um, I think what the cultural sector seem to quite quickly realize that it took news media a decade or more to notice that giving everything away for free is probably not a sustainable model. And that was a bit of a relief to see that, that shift away from just putting everything on YouTube, um, and not asking really for any money for it. Um, and I know you've looked at this, this question, you know, around of weather, you know, what is people's willingness to pay for access to content and experiences. Um, so maybe that's a starting point, you know, what, what is the appetite from audiences who perhaps got used to being able to watch, you know, multi-camera capture of, you know, high quality plays on YouTube and not having to part with any money to now being asked for, you know, 10, 15, 20 pounds?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think we should start by saying there's a, um, a component of behavioral economics called the price quality effect, um, which has absolutely come into to play here. Um, so the price quality effect kicks in when there are few other cues as to the relative quality of, uh, of a product and it, and it, and its value. So, you know, if you're an expert in gin, for example, you absolutely will know which are the better quality distilleries or the better blends or whatever, if you're me, who likes a gin and tonic every now and then, um, then all you really know is that a more expensive bottle of Jean is probably better than a cheaper bottle of gin. Uh, and at that, the moment that that kind of mass participation in digital culture came into existence, you know, a lot of organizations went out there and said, this is free. Um, we reinforced all of those perceptions that now exist around second best stop gap, uh, diversion. And to be honest, let's be absolutely clear about this. I cannot criticize that at all because it was an enormous expression of the, the latent value of the cultural sector that was just unleashed in a kind of moment of crisis for the world. You know, as a sector, we said, we, we can't cure this, uh, but we can make our time spent in this situation better and we can create moments of connection. So I don't actually criticize unleashing of, of free content at all. Um, where we are now though, is that when we look at the, um, uh, responses that we're seeing for culture restart. So 78% of those who are, who are interested in digital, um, would be willing to pay, um, the vast majority of those. So 59% in November, um, would expect to pay less than live. So there is a signal out there that, that, you know, the digital experience is worth less than live. Um, around about 23% would be willing to donate. Um, and just 6% would be willing to pay the same as live for a digital experience. Uh, but not all digital experiences equal. So willingness to pay is much greater for things like creative workshops, interactive events, uh, experiences, which were created specifically for online. Um, and the, uh, the willingness to pay anything close to full price then starts to decline as you get into things like live stream recordings, uh, online talks, um, view on demand archive, uh, and starts to pick up again, interestingly around things like virtual guided tours, um, which we've seen people like, you know, the, uh, the national gallery, um, uh, really innovate on. So there's a signal coming through that where, where the experience is live, where it's potentially interactive, um, uh, and or when it's been specifically created for online. So people can have a high level of confidence that they're going to have a high quality digital experience then willingness to pay, um, is, is higher for, for those sorts of services. So actually when you look at something like a creative workshop, 27% of people are willing to pay the same as live, um, to attend a, a digital workshop.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think for me, that's been one of the most pleasant, least surprising insights that we've gained this year. You know, certainly our experience working with cultural organizations absolutely backs up that finding, um, you know, opera, North and organization. Um, we, we work with based in, in the North of England, had huge success with, uh, singing workshops that they did earlier in the year. Um, I know English national ballet have launched a whole subscription scheme around, uh, sort of ballet fitness classes. I know saddle as well. So I've seen a huge engagement with dance workshops around different styles of dance, um, and actually not to be sort of a nakedly commercial about all of this, but perhaps activity that has hitherto been seen as not revenue generating in a digital context suddenly becomes a different proposition, I think
Speaker 3:Hugely and, and, you know, there, there are all sorts of implications actually for, for this potential market. So, um, when we did dig deeper into the data, we see, um, a really clear dislike for, um, subscriptions actually, um, which is interesting because we know there are specific sub-sectors where actually subscriptions have been working quite nicely. And, um, those tend to be those sub-sectors where, um, subscriptions were a big part of the traditional model beforehand. So I'm thinking particularly of orchestral music, people like the Bournemouth symphony orchestra, um, our clients, the Melbourne symphony orchestra, um, uh, Royal Scottish national orchestra have all had really successful subscription, digital schemes, um, uh, since lockdown. So, um, people are expressing that they don't necessarily have a desire to be tied in, but again, I think this is about flexibility. You know, I often point people to, um, uh, Friday at five, which is a online membership that was created specifically as a response to COVID by SF jazz San Francisco jazz. And it's a$5 a month membership, which is all around creating a shared life, but virtual experience. So the experience is live. So this is effectively a watch party of 5:00 PM on a Friday, you gather together to watch a recording of a performance. Um, and that membership is a$5 a month membership that you can cancel at any time. You've got that flexibility built in. Um, uh, but it's all about, of course, building up a pool of people who one can continue into perpetual digital membership, that new audience who may be nowhere near San Francisco may never attend SF jazz, but also about creating a pipeline back into real world membership real-world attendance, um, at SF jazz itself.
Speaker 2:And that idea of subscription, I think is interesting. You know, I've had a number of conversations with people who are trying to work out how they could deliver that idea for their organization. You know, you get lots of comparisons being made with Netflix, which I think is possibly unhelpful because no cultural organization is ever going to be able to produce the breadth and depth of content that Netflix does at the price point that Netflix delivers it. Um, that being said, what we've seen in the last couple of weeks is the national theater in the UK launching, um, a subscription model digital platform, um, that they're going to be putting, uh, archives recordings of plays onto. And I can see that that totally makes sense for them to be sort of able to add, uh, a long tail to their NT live program, um, broadcast into cinemas. So I can totally see for them, it makes sense, but more broadly, I wonder how realistic it is for many organizations to consider that. Because if you think about your average cultural attendee, they will attend cultural experiences at many different organizations. And I mean, we're starting to get into this situation in the real world where you've got a Netflix subscription and Amazon prime subscription and Apple TV plus subscription, a Disney subscription. You know, I don't, I don't know, do you, I don't know if you have a sense of what the tolerance is for even highly engaged cultural attendees. You know, if someone attends 10 different theaters a year, are they realistically going to want to hold 10 different digital subscriptions each costing them seven 99 a month?
Speaker 3:That's an interesting, uh, question. We did a bit of work a number of years ago, actually on donations rather than subscriptions, but it, it did demonstrate that, um, uh, frequent cultural attenders were willing to donate to, um, uh, multiple cultural organizations and that some of your most loyal cultural attenders, uh, in terms of recency frequency and monetary value, uh, would also be donating to organizations that they never attended simply on the, on the basis that they felt a connection to those organizations. So, um, uh, however, I would say this, that, that I think there are a few implications from, from what we're seeing at, at the moment, um, uh, and some opportunities as well. So, um, inevitably in the conversation that we've had, we have thought about, um, what does a subscription model look like between a subscriber and one organization? Um, and I think there is a real opportunity here around, um, uh, Federation. Um, so there's a number of producers have been able to adapt very quickly to a digital form of touring. So they have, um, uh, taken their shows, taking the digital products and sold them through theater, uh, CRM suits, CRM, uh, uh, theater databases, and, you know, with, within the limits of kind of competition law and what, you know, it's worth exploring, what are the opportunities to federate? Um, what are the, what is the potential to do deals on, on a show, which is based on distribution to 10, 20 or 30 venues databases, um, as opposed to just one, and of course the flip side of that is what is then the potential for a subscription model that covers, um, all of those areas. And also, I think it's worth just noting that there's a, there's a coming out of the culture restart. There's a big group of people, 62% of people who say that once they can return to live performance, they would be less likely to engage with online culture, but would still consider online events that I wouldn't otherwise have a chance to see live. Um, that is a, a huge portion of people know you, uh, have had, um, anchor bar from, uh, Sadler's Wells on, on this podcast. Absolutely. A fantastic episode of the podcast I've said, well, well-worth, if anyone's listening to this who has not listened to that episode, um, uh, hugely worth listening to, um, and he said very clearly that, uh, audiences saw live capture as second best. And I would agree with that, but I'm not as sure that live capture is as dead as many people think because there is a willingness here for people to engage with live capture, if they otherwise wouldn't have the chance to see it live. So I think particularly if the incremental cost of capture can be kept relatively low, um, so the digital capture can be operationalized in the same way that say a, a captioned performance or an audio described performances. Then actually, uh, you know, I think there is a market there because we all have these sort of internal scales in our internal scales in our head, uh, the price value scales. So we are willing to pay something if the price value scales are in alignment. If we think we're getting, getting our money's worth. And interestingly, I think there may actually be a market for cheap to purchase live capture, which is undeniably second best, which people would purchase if it is all that is available, uh, for them, if it's the only option available to them. Um, and that that could exist without cannibalizing a live performance. And, and often with digital capture organizations go to enormous lens to make it the highest quality capture they possibly can. So to do the camera rehearsals, they get up close it's shot without an audience or with a minimal audience and so on. Whereas I do actually think there are indications here that particularly for those with new and high barriers to attendance, that there would be a willingness to pay less than a full price ticket for a dyslexic variance that is captured live, um, in a, uh, uh, uh, accessible quality, but clearly not beautifully shot, uh, way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think on that, there's so many, so many points you made that I'm going to try and pick through, but on that last point, um, another study that I looked at focused on North America, LaPlaca Cohen's, um, culture track, uh, study indicated exactly that, that people through digital activity, particularly this year were, um, engaging with institutions that they had never visited and engaging with art forms that they had never experienced before. Um, and I think that as you say, what digital does is it reduces the risk of engaging with, with those, with those art forms, whether that's, um, risk around cost around sort of, uh, perceptions of, of barriers, uh, you know, do I need to get dressed up to the opera sort of thing? Um, all the more obvious barriers that digital is good at addressing around geography. Um, and I think that is a really interesting area for organizations to think about.
Speaker 3:I totally agree. Although interestingly, when, um, in the first round of culture restart, we asked audiences what had held them back from engaging with digital. Um, those that hadn't taken part, the single biggest concern was around quality because they simply didn't know what they were going to get. Um, and so I think there is still work to do, to persuade audiences that, um, the, uh, the small amount, pardon me, the smaller amount that they may be paying online, um, is still going to deliver an experience which meets or exceeds their, their expectations. And I think, you know, this, this has all sorts of implications for, um, cultural organizations as digital content production becomes a much more important part of the organization. And it leads to all kinds of questions around, uh, resourcing in the form of people resourcing in the form of finance and space and time. Um, you know, who are your experts in, uh, digital audience segmentation in your business, who are your expert, digital content producers, um, who are your experts in analytics, in targeting in, in remarketing, who are your experts in user journeys? You know, um, uh, agencies bring UX experience, but, but it's then in the hands of organizations to build journeys on, uh, our websites, you know, to what extent do these digital skills, which are absolutely vital to whether people watch or don't watch whether they convert or don't convert, engage, or don't engage, to what extent do they exist within the organizations and what resources are going to be committed to that in the future, because, um, you're absolutely right. Any organization, which just puts up some digital capture and sends a few emails and posts a few tweets is, is unlikely to see a success in a way that a sustained strategic, uh, and very well-designed digital product, very well distributed digital product, uh, has the potential, um, uh, to, to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that point around digital skills is essential. You know, digital skills have typically been siloed or they live within the marketing sales communication parts of organizations. Um, and it's probably time for organizations to try and spread that knowledge a bit more broadly across everything that they do. Interesting article from your friend of mine and previous guest of the podcast, Chris unit in arts professional, um, this week talking about digital skills and the need for the sector to sort of understand what digital competency and digital looks like and how you can recruit for and train that in the workforce, I think is, is an essential question for people to engage with.
Speaker 3:I think that's completely true. And it also links back to, you know, thinking about these linkages between digital and the real world experience as well. So where we are seeing, um, people who have, uh, hasn't hesitancy or reluctance to book, um, or they just have questions actually, to what extent are your audience team, your front of house team or your, your, um, customer service team, however, are constructed, to what extent are they plugged into social media, to the, you know, the, the online messaging, uh, function on your website, if it even exists, um, uh, who owns those conversations? Because I, you know, if it's just the marketing department, then the likelihood is that, uh, opportunities are being missed because we have a, uh, a job of work to do, um, to re-engage with, uh, existing audiences, but also to attract new audiences. And that means being open to listening, um, to the needs and concerns of audiences. It means being willing to be flexible, uh, it means being adaptable. So, um, you know, a lot of organizations have got a track record of doing a, say a pre-show email and a post-show survey, um, um, make on a look at the aggregate results once a month. Something like that. Certainly when, uh, when I ran a theater, that was exactly what I did. Um, but actually what we now are encouraging people to do is do the pre-show survey. What were your expectations and do the post show survey, how did we meet your expectations, or where did we fall short or what reinforced, um, uh, positive experience, both online and in a, in a physical experience as well. And so it's tremendously important that organizations are listening very closely, and that probably means having more people engaged in things like social media and customer service channels and before and responding quickly, um, because we know, uh, the extraordinary power of word of mouth, um, both positive and negative. Um, and so it's going to be tremendously important for organizations to be thinking about those, those communications channels and how they disseminate, what audiences are thinking and feeling internally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's something we've noticed with everyone that started, um, operating in this, in this area is that, you know, if you've got a live stream happening at six o'clock, you're suddenly going to be happening to answer probably very different customer queries. How do I cast this from my iPad onto my TV? My wifi is not working. You know, it's giving me this error message. What do I do? Um, and I think digital experiences mean that people will reach for digital channels in which to ask for customer service more readily. They perhaps words with, um, sort of in-person experiences.
Speaker 3:I think that's completely right. Um, and of course, inherent in digital communications channels built in are all of the expectations that we all have around the digital experience. And what comes with that is flexibility and rapidity, you know, the kind of the speed of response, um, and how organizations deliver, uh, customer service, if you want to call it that patron service, um, is hugely important, uh, going, going, going into 2021, um, when people are likely to have very, very specific queries, um, which, which will not be satisfied by, uh, you know, uh, paint of FAQ's.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And just returning to one other point that you made, um, a little while ago, the idea of a Federation, the idea of sort of multiple organizations coming together to distribute what is essentially the same content, but helping that content reach their audiences, I think is a really interesting one. You know, the question that's been posed a few times in various events, I've been in a round table, says, you know, we are a receiving theater or in, in North America or a venue for hire, you know, yes, we program what we do, but we don't really have control over those shows. Um, what's our role in all of this. We can't be commissioning, you know, a live stream or something because that's sort of out of our control. But I think actually it feels like in the UK, certainly I've seen a number of examples of this in the stand-up comedy world. Um, but I, I believe wise children have taken this model with, um, a few things they've done where there is a central piece of digital content or a digital experience. And they are collaborating with a network of venues to reach far more people than they would otherwise be able to on their own. I wonder, you know, is that a model worth people looking at, um, you know, what are the questions that people should maybe be asking themselves if they are that type of organization?
Speaker 3:Because of course, um, although this is in some ways, in some ways an old fashioned concept, now there will be, uh, an enormous proportion of, uh, the audience too, to just about any cultural venue who sees that venue as a trusted gatekeeper, um, uh, an authority on, um, uh, what is, or is not a, a quality product and with whom may have a relationship that they have built over time. Um, and there is a, I think a very substantial opportunity around, uh, buying and promoting that content and venues, uh, and CRM database owners recognizing the value of the contacts that they built up over time, but also the relationships that they have. And so working in a smart and sophisticated way to deliver a quality product, um, to their audiences, uh, for the best price for the audiences, but also the best value for the whole kind of cultural ecosystem. So ultimately we want to, what we want to achieve here is sustainable venue, sustainable producers, and sustainable audiences. Um, and I do think that, uh, Federation, uh, coproduction co commissioning is going to be a vital part of, of that in the, in the future. I think you're absolutely right. That stand up. Comedy has kind of pioneered this model over the last couple of months. Um, but there was no particular reason why, um, a similar model couldn't work, for example, for the promotion of new writing, you know, I'm a trustee of a new writing specialist theater live theater in Newcastle upon Tyne. Um, and I see an enormous opportunity here for the work that we commission and create on stage at a live theater, which just happens to be, uh, an auditorium that would be perfect for digital capture, um, to, of, to, to promote those stories, those artists, and that new work, um, to a national market. I'm kind of looking for and feeling the gap in the market at the moment for those networks and for those federations. And I do think there's a really substantial opportunity around that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it feels like that opportunity is transcends sort of national borders. There there's an internationalization opportunity there, you know, if you don't have to suddenly think about how you're going to tour a show to, to Asia or to Australia in New Zealand or to North America, you know, and actually it's, it's about finding partners that can help deliver that content to their audiences. That feels like such a exciting opportunity. I, yeah,
Speaker 3:I completely agree. You know, we spent a lot of time over the last few months talking about, um, a framework called the Canavin framework, which talks about, um, four domains within which stuff happens. So there's a chaotic domain, there's a complex domain, a complicated domain and an obvious domain, and how you respond to events that occur in each of the, um, uh, domains varies. So, um, if you're in a chaotic space, as we all were in kind of March, April time, then there's really only novel practice. You can just kind of, you just have to act and see what happens. You move into the complex space where the chaos is over, but things are still very complicated. And that's where you see emerging practice. And to some extent, I think that's where, where we are now, where people are using the data that they have available to them, um, to develop new practice, you move into complicated, which is the world of good practice, which I think is where a lot of people are at the moment. Um, and then you move into the obvious space, which is the realm of best practice. And that's the, it's the one question that I can't answer for clients at the moment is people come to me and say, you know, what's the best practice in X. And, and I often say, I really can't tell you what the best practice is because we haven't been in this space long enough. What I can show you are six examples of good practice, and I can point you towards the one that I think might be right for you. Um, so yeah, the, the, uh, how we, uh, adapt to this time, um, is, is seeing a number of kind of emerging practices and good practices, some of which will last and sustain. Um, uh, and some of which of course will, will fall by the wayside as, uh, we will probably find out. And I've said this a few times in various forums, that as you look back over the broad sweep of history, that it is often the case that when there is a hugely disruptive event, the new normal tends to have a, uh, a remarkable similarity and appearance to the old normal. But what we do want to do is hold on to the best of, uh, these extraordinary few months we've been through. And there was a clear opportunity for digital artists, digital content, producers, and digital distribution, um, that, that we should not lose sight of not least because aside from the commercial opportunity, this is I think an important part of accessibility, um, to our industry going forward. Uh, there are a number of people now through, you know, whether it's extensive co-morbidity or radically transformed economic circumstances, um, or geographic isolation or whatever it may be, who are not as able to attend physically as they were before. And digital is a huge part of the solution to that. And
Speaker 2:Final question about the research that you've, you've been doing. You know, I know a lot of the work that you do is around price, um, pricing strategies, pricing analysis, um, and I know those have been some of the questions that you've been asking through your surveys. It feels like broadly at the moment on the sort of pay per view model that a rough ballpark has been set of sort of between, I don't know, 10 and 25 pounds, and most things exist within that, um, that, that, that context, um, but what you have seen, you know, um, the old Vic, uh, to just a festival theater where they have offered multiple price points. Um, and certainly that anecdotally the findings that I've heard is that you will get some people who are perfectly happy to pay the top price for what is essentially, you know, the same view, the same seat, the same experience, because at the moment, we don't have the ability to easily provide differentiated digital experiences. I wonder if, if maybe just on this final bit around the research and the thinking that you've done, if you have any thoughts to share on, on price. Yeah. So,
Speaker 3:I mean, Baker Richard's works across primary research strategy, segmentation and pricing, and all of those things are kind of, uh, they are, they are one, but just looking specifically at price. Uh, and again, actually I would think back to, you know, um, uh, anchor Baal, um, when he spoke to you recently, he was, he was fantastically honest, uh, and, and, and refreshing about how, for example, they, they reached their price of five pounds per seat for dancing a dusk. Um, and, and they encountered that it's not an affordable price point in every country, but even in the UK, there would have been people who couldn't afford that price of five pounds and people who would have been willing to pay more. It is inherently beneficial, um, in digital, as in the real world to offer a range of price points. Now in the real world, we often talk about so-called value fences. So if you pay more, you get more, whether that's a, a better experience, um, uh, or, uh, wrap around some, some cross sell thrown in, um, that does work in digital. So we have seen people differentiate by value fences. So, um, you can buy a ticket for an experience, but if you want to receive a program or an experience pack through the post, then that's a separate price. Um, we've also seen people, like, for example, the world called who've offered, who've offered, uh, differential pricing, um, based on economic circumstances. So there is a full price, and there is a discounted price if you are currently economically disadvantaged. And, um, you know, they have seen that, that almost kind of honesty box model has worked very well for them. Uh, so I think one of the challenges that we're seeing with certainly the video on demand platforms, um, which are out there at the moment, uh, they often don't support that kind of variable pricing differential pricing, um, that we know is, is, is inherently beneficial. Um, so it's, it's one of the things that we ask organizations to throw into the mix, as well, as, you know, deciding are you going to go for a video on demand platform, which is not integrated to your CRM because you want convenience of payment, uh, or are you going to choose one that is integrated to your CRM? Uh, and are you going to choose one which is capable of differential pricing because you will probably be able to deliver better yields from one that is than you are from one with a fixed price. So, um, we definitely encourage people to do variable pricing where they can, and you've, you've highlighted that actually in this strange space at the moment, um, if you, uh, artificially limit capacity, then you can variably price without the value fences. So you, as people like the old Vic have done, um, you can get audiences to pay more for an experience, which they know has been sold, um, to other people for, for, for less. Um, but that's a fantastically, uh, been a fantastically effective marketing strategy. Um, and, and I wouldn't discourage it. Um, I think there were a few other things that, that are tangental to pricing, which are important to kind of bear mind. Um, and a lot of them are around sort of behavioral and consumer psychology. So, um, one is this principle of joint evaluation. So just remembering that if people are offered one price for something, say that offered one membership, um, uh, and the choice is buy it or don't, then some people will buy it. And some people won't, but if they're offered a choice between two, uh, two varying price points, then more people will buy overall. Um, so that, again, that kind of joint evaluation principle speaks to the importance of price. Differentiation. Second is social proof. So particularly where audiences are hesitant at the moment, um, you know, is, is taking part in a digital experience. Something that's unusual seeing that other people are buying or watching or taking part, um, is a really important part of building confidence. Um, loss aversion is a really interesting part of pricing. So, um, people are instinctively, uh, motivated by avoiding a loss. So if you issue people with, um, a coupon or voucher, um, that feels like it has a cash value, um, which expires then people are more motivated to spend that than they would be if it were just, if it presented, for example, as a discounted price, um, anchoring as well, I'm rattling through things here, but it's just really worth people being aware of, you know, the order of information is really important when we're thinking about price. So we attach as human beings, more weight to the first thing that we see, um, which is why we often recommend that people lead with the highest price on, uh, on a page. Um, uh, you know, if I say to you, for example, a classic example of that, if I described someone to you as intelligent industrious, impulsive and critical, uh, and then describe someone to you as critical impulsive, industrious and intelligent, we instinctively apply more weight to the things we heard first in that list. Um, and we'll draw very different perceptions. So really thinking about the presentation of price, as well as the actual prices, um, is tremendously important. And then just the last thing I would reflect on is, um, you know, there were, there were two systems of thought for how we approach a digital experience, a purchasing experience. Um, there's thinking fast and thinking slow. And when we're thinking fast, we're in system one where using shortcuts, rule of thumb decisions, intuitive thinking, what do I tap on? When do I stop scrolling? Which option looks right. Uh, I don't know how much this is worth, but I know how much a sky movies rental is worth. And this feels broadly comparable. All of those things is kind of system one fast thinking and system two, the slow thinking is where we start to kind of follow rules. We make effort for comparison of the things in front of us. We really get into the detail of what am I getting for this versus that, um, the various experiences on offer, we make more considered choices. It's also where we doubt where we bring in disbelief. And so the more that we can bring, we can build digital experiences, which have user experiences that encourage that fast thinking, you know, I'm being presented with a series of simple, speedy choices that reinforce what I'm doing and make me feel good about purchasing, um, the better it is for, for all of us. Um, uh, and the more likely it is that we'll be able to build those digital audiences, build those conversions, uh, at whatever price. And so the actual number that you set is really only one part of the pricing equation.
Speaker 2:You touched on, um, a lot that, you know, and a number of really, um, interesting concepts, I think, and ideas and areas of study, you know, behavioral psychology, heuristics biases. Um, obviously you compress a lot of information into a short amount of time that I wonder, I mean, I would expect you are referring to Daniel. Kahneman's thinking across loads, absolute book, which is a great book. I'd advise everyone to have a read. I would also recommend, uh, the choice factory by Richard Shotton is really good about different types of biases that everyone has, and more specifically how they can be, uh, leveraged in, in marketing activity. I wonder if there are any other books or podcasts or films that you would recommend people checking out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. I, so aside from the two that you've mentioned, I think I would also just throw into the mix, Dan Ariely's predictably irrational. Um, it's a, it's a slightly older, um, book, um, but a really excellent read that covers the ground very well. And also, I unfortunately forgot the name of the author, but there's a fantastic book called why we buy, um, which has been updated recently. Um, it's very much based on, uh, retail shopping, but it's been extended to cover the, the online world. Um, those are our two great books for, uh, understanding consumer behavior. And actually, I think, I don't know whether you'd agree with this, but I do think that it is important that, um, organizations have a working knowledge of good digital user experience so that they're either designing good experiences themselves, or they're asking the right questions of agencies such as yourselves. Um, and although it is now a 20 year old book, um, uh, I often refer back to Steve Krug's, don't make me think, um, which was updated, I think about six years ago, that there was a more recent version that covers apps. Um, but I would also encourage people who are making, who are doing lots of digital transactions to have a read of that book. It's a, it's a very accessible, um, uh, very powerful read.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think, you know, everything we've covered here from designing, um, digital content, designing digital experiences, pricing psychology, um, motivations to attendance, all of these are underpinned by behavioral, psychological concepts and realities. And I think that everyone is going to be better equipped, and we'll be able to ask better questions and be more effective across this whole sway of activity if they, if they have a good grounding and sort of, you know, bias, why people make the decisions that they do, how decision making works, all of those things I think is, is a valuable set of, uh, knowledge to equip yourself with.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, and, and also just to underpin that as well, segmentation, I think, you know, segmentation is, is going to be of increasing importance. Um, as we go into 2021, 2022, and try to get back onto that kind of path to some form of economic normality. And, uh, it's worth noting that, you know, a lot of organizations work with demographic segmentations, um, and, and they are incredibly valuable and I'm not at all saying that they're not valuable, but I do know there was a question Mark at the moment over how is the behavior of certain segments changing. Um, but that does not mean that those segmentations are without value. Um, this psychographic segmentation, which is kind of survey based, which tells you a lot about what audiences are, are believing and feeling now, um, but quite difficult to apply to a whole database because it only really tells you, um, about the people who've responded, but behavioral segmentation, which, uh, the, the usefulness of which was, um, uh, very much downgraded when COVID struck, because audiences effectively all started behaving in the same way, or almost all started behaving in the same way. I, they stopped engaging with us actually, as we get back into, um, uh, reopening and building dyslexic variances, behavioral segmentation is really the only form of segmentation that is 100% reliable that tells you what people are or are not doing. Um, and having a good, solid understanding of behavioral segmentation is I think important to, uh, planning a really effective recovery as well. And so you may be able to hear my dogs in the background, but that just
Speaker 2:By my doorbell is just rung has
Speaker 3:Chosen this moment to, to, to start up.
Speaker 2:And maybe just a final question on the subject of, of segmentation, you know, most cultural organizations that I, that we both work with, have some form of segmentation model that informs their activity across everything they do. You know, given that, as we've said earlier, operating in a digital space in the way that organizations have started doing in 2020 is so new for many people. How, how likely is it that those preexisting segmentation models can be overlaid on digital activity, um, or will people need to do some additional thinking in order to make those structures useful in a digital content?
Speaker 3:So, so I think all of the segmentation systems that are widely adopted in the sector have to some extent attempted to address both the impact of COVID, um, on their segmentation models and, um, specific questions around digital, um, themselves. So it's absolutely worth referring back to whether it is, you know, audience, spectrum, or mosaic or acorn or whatever it may be. It is worth referring back to what the providers of those segmentations say themselves. I do think that it is in the vast majority of cases, inherently useful for organizations to, uh, design and build behavioral segmentation within their own CRM, which pulls in factors such as ticket buying, uh, donations, digital behaviors, email opens, email clicks, um, and more sophisticated. So metrics where they can, but most CRMs would be able to at least show you, um, ticket purchasing donations and email opens and clicks, and to, uh, build a behavioral segmentation model around that. Because it's really important that organizations are thinking strategically about these buckets of audiences planning out the user journeys. When somebody falls into segment a, what do you want them to do next? You know, yes, they have, they have taken part in a digital experience. That's one thing they take apart in a digital experience and returned a feedback form. That's the second point of engagement they took part in a digital experience, filled out a feedback form and donated, okay, we've got some really interesting information here. What do we want them to do next? And answering that question in a really strategic way is I think going to be incredibly important to building back up that loyalty and frequency and volume of attendances, whether it is online or in a physical space in 2021 and 2022.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think that's a really nice point to end on, um, you know, looking to the future. We now do have a lot of new information, new research, new data about how digital could help cultural organizations reach and engage with their audiences. Um, and I'm really excited to see how the sector uses that as we move through the, the current crisis and beyond. Um, thank you so much for your time today. Robin it's been as ever complete pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1:Having me.
