Episode 014 - Ankur Bahl (Sadler's Wells) on structuring digital teams, spending time on storytelling, choosing the right platforms, and audience responses to digital programming

A conversation with Sadler's Wells' Head of Content & Audiences, Ankur Bahl. 

We chat about structuring digital teams, spending time focusing on storytelling, choosing the right content approach for each platform, the initiatives Sadler's Wells has tried during lockdown (and how audiences responded), and their plans for the future.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the digital works podcast. The podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. My name's Ash and today's episode is conversation with anchor bell. Anchor is the director of content and audiences at settlers Wells in London previously to that he worked at McKinsey and he's also an actor. We talked about what is quickly becoming a recurring theme on this podcast, how digital teams, et cetera, as well as a structured, we talked about a lot of the experiments, et cetera, as well as have undertaken since lockdown happened back in March and what's worked and what they might look to retain when the world starts to go back to something approaching normality. I think anchor is a really refreshing Lee, Frank and honest and engaging interviewee and has lots of great things to say. So enjoy how are you doing anyway?

Speaker 2: 1:09

I'm all right, Ash. Yeah,

Speaker 1: 1:11

I'm okay. Oh God. I was just, although I say that when I, when I was just waiting for you to join the call, I was reading a long article about the airline industry and it did make me think, at least we don't work in the airline industry.

Speaker 2: 1:28

I mean, there are days when I, um, I despair for, for the art sector. Um, and I think, you know, just like normal life life in a pandemic makes you go makes you have moments where you go. It is really tough for me. It is really tough for the people around me. And then you look around and you go, it is much tougher for other people. And it's trying to keep that level head about the perspective being like, it's okay for me to feel like this is all terrible right now, but also keep a sense of perspective. Yeah,

Speaker 1: 1:56

There are degrees of terrible. I think at least we don't have any$500 million aircraft that we need to sort of store.

Speaker 2: 2:04

No, no, I don't have that problem. Right.

Speaker 1: 2:08

So, I mean, there's, there's a bunch of things I wanna, I wanna talk to you about today. Um, I wanna talk a bit about your role at Sadler's Wells. I wanna talk a bit about your life before Sadler's Wells as well. Cause, um, that's, I think really interesting and I would imagine informs your approach to your work at, at Sadler's. Um, and I also want to talk a bit about some of the work that Sadler's Wells has done since lockdown, because I think that there have been some really interesting aspects to that you have, um, put out work that has been access has been paid access as well as lots and lots of free, um, free access work. Uh, you've put out work that I think probably wouldn't have existed if we didn't have lock down. So we'll talk a bit about the dancing at dusk piece. Um, because I think that's a really beautiful artistic response to, to lock down. I, it only exists because it couldn't be taught around the world. Um, and I think it's really beautifully realized it's not just filming something that's happening on a stage. It feels quite, um, it stands alone as a, as a piece of artistic digital content, I think. Um, and I also want to talk a bit about the digital stage work that you've been doing since lockdown. I know the digital stage has existed for a few years now, but it really feels like lockdown gave you the, perhaps the opportunity or the impetus to, to ramp up activity in that space. So I'm interested to hear about how that's gone and particularly how audiences have responded to that because you've put out a huge diversity of work on, on that channel. Um, so, so we'll dig into that as well, but maybe if we start with your role at Sadler's Wells director of content and audiences, you're the first person to have that role at sat as well as, as far as I'm aware, I think it's a new role at saddle as well as could you just talk a bit about what your focus is, what your sort of remit is and maybe about how that role came into existence?

Speaker 2: 4:23

So you're right. The director of content and audience's role is a relatively new one for Sadler's Wells and I'm the first to occupy it. The role came out of a restructure of the organization. Uh, we had a very traditional marketing and sales department that looked after sort of campaign marketing brand, uh, social media website, um, ticket office predominantly as its primary functions. Um, and we did a piece of digital strategy work at Sadler's Wells a couple of years ago. And what we realized was while that was working really well for specific parts of, of our strategic objectives, what it wasn't doing so well was allowing us to step away from the selling day to day. So that I have a show on Thursday that is not at target. How do I make it work? Right? And so when you're thinking in that way and trying to reach sales targets show by show, by show, how do you step away from that as an organization or as a human and go, what is the overall brand strategy for South as well as what are the longer term objectives that we're trying to do that we're trying to achieve? And how do I, how do I focus on that brand vision when very much the day-to-day tactics are about selling shows? And so it was trying to make sure that there was that balance within the organization, and you can solve that a number of ways, but for Sadler's Wells, it was solved through one renewed digital strategic objectives and to an organizational restructure. So we have the sort of marketing and sales function, which is still very much campaigns, audience ticket office selling shows and building audiences for those live shows predominantly, and then the content and audiences department, which is very heavily focused on brand on digital content, on hopefully building a new website very soon. And I'm thinking about what the Sadler's Wells story is and what its others was this digital audiences and how we build that. So that was how, that's, how it happened. It came out of digital strategy work, um, and, and that's what it was intended to do.

Speaker 1: 6:28

How, how has the organization found that shift? Because you know, so many arts organizations, people working in marketing and sales teams will be listening to this will absolutely recognize that day-to-day pressure of, we need to keep, you know, we need to sell the tickets. We need to keep money moving through the door, or we know that the storytelling piece, the bigger sort of mission, vision value stuff is important, but that relentless day-to-day focus. Doesn't leave a lot of bandwidth for that. How, how has that shift been to suddenly having, uh, a team of people who, who do have the bandwidth to look at that? Um, and how, how have you, I suppose, forced yourself in a, in a nice way into that institutional conversation?

Speaker 2: 7:18

Well, change is hard. It's not, I'm not going to pretend it was easy or that it is easy. Now. I think it is a challenge and it's based on priorities that you make and choices you make. Right. Um, I should be clear about that though, because I didn't say what portions of the, of the organization then end up in this new content and audiences department. Right? So what that department is made up now of is our press and influencer team who looks after media, traditional press online press and influencers, our digital team that looks after website and video content for Sadler's Wells in house made video content, and then our social media and content team, which is looking at digital content production and social media. And then you bring all of the corporate comms into that as well. Right? So broadly, what we're talking about is a structure that has those parts of the organization working in tender with lots of other people at its core. And so in a lot of ways, being able to think about brand from that position is a natural starting point. Being able to think about what is our digital content proposition strategically, as opposed to, for Thursday to sell the show. It makes a lot of sense that said it requires the organization. Now it's not like we increased head count per se, right? So we still have the same teams. And what you've said is now this team's going to focus on really building audiences live and selling shows, and this team's going to focus on the brand voice, the overall story. And there is a time when all of a sudden it feels like the sales targets haven't changed your team capacity hasn't changed, but all of a sudden you don't have a website team, a social media team, a content team, or a press team going. Yeah, the most important thing today is to sell this show. And that's hard for marketing and sales teams, and that's hard for companies, right? Because they're used to a certain level of support going, yeah, I'm going to get this specific army behind this show. And so I think it's kind of, that's not to say we don't still deliver that. I think we do still deliver that. It's sad. There's both ways, but in a very strategic, thoughtful, hopefully more thoughtful way, but there are growing pains to getting into that. Of course there are. Um, and it's a completely different shift, right? You, you, one example of where this, where this played out, because I feel like I'm slightly going in circles with it to, to explain it. I think one example that's quite helpful is we realized that on social media specifically on, on Facebook and on actually on Instagram, especially trailers were not doing well at all for us. So you put out a trailer for a show you're expecting, it's going to lead to some sort of sales bump where people are gonna want to book and it wasn't working. The teams got underneath the numbers and they realize that now, at least today, 52% of our Instagram audience is international. They're not based in the UK. So most of those people are not going to buy a ticket to come to Sadler's Wells. And the majority of our UK audiences are not going to buy a ticket to come to South as well as for any number of reasons. One, because they can't make it two, they can't afford it three. They have no inclination to come any number of things, right. Especially during the pandemic. And so the question becomes, why would you try and sell a show to that audience when you could do something more effective for the brand to that audience, but that requires a very serious shift in approach for an organization. And I think that's, that's what took time, I think, and it's still taking time. It's going okay. If the old way of doing it didn't work. And we recognize that, and therefore we chose a different organizational structure. How do you use that as a vehicle to achieve what you're trying to do and still meet enormous sales targets?

Speaker 1: 10:58

I think it's really interesting to look cause as you say, it's a series of choices, intentional choices that have been made, which change the status quo, and they must change the status quo. It's not just about people having new job titles and carrying on the same old way. Um, and I think that what I have found quite inspiring actually is that those choices seem to have buy-in right through the organization from the very top. And I think you've, you've seen that certainly through lockdown. Um, and I know conversations you and I have had previously that it's digital, isn't just seen as a marketing channel. It's very much seen as a way of engaging with audiences and Sadler's Wells core way they engage with audiences is through artistic activity. And it's been really, as I say, inspiring and invigorating to see Sadler's Wells, both capturing sort of in-person and inverted commerce or artistic experiences and representing them on that digital channel, but also, and more encouragingly to see those digital audiences being directly addressed by the commissioning of digital work work that only exists on that digital stage. And I wonder if you could talk to that a little bit, um, sort of, I guess, how, how new is that strand of activity for subtle as well as, and I think, again, looking at the shift that's inevitably been required to achieve that. If you could just talk a bit about, has this involved working with new or different artists has this involved, I guess, new roles internally or new third-party relationships in terms of creatives to help capture and develop that digital content, um, has it required going out and finding entirely new audiences because, you know, as you say that this kind con, or as I said, this, this content is specifically for digital audiences, a lot of the time, and those audiences may be very different in profile to people who come to see us. Sadler's Wells performance in a theater,

Speaker 2: 13:16

There's a lot to unpack there, so I'll try and take it in chunks. So Sadler's Wells digital stage as it were as a, as a name for a thing has existed for a number of years, but that's not to say that it was one of our primary channels of delivering on our mission and vision. Um, our mission is to make and share dance that inspires us all. And I think there were some really beautiful pieces of content on digital stage, but it wasn't a, it wasn't a channel that we used for regular programming. I think it's fair to say. And I think we've been thinking about as part of this overall digital strategy, how do we change that? How do we do that? And I think the pandemic has forced us to do that. Um, more quickly than we organically might have when look down started the conversations we were having in the organization were very much, okay. One what's realistic given we can't necessarily start creating new work because everyone's in lockdown. And all of a sudden our program is, is not deliverable our live program. And how do we continue to support artists that we are invested in and we work with. And so very much the initial stages of our conversations around digital stage, where, how can it be an extension or a different version of the live program and the artists we work with there. So what you would expect Sadler's Wells life, what would be the digital manifestation of that? So when you ask whether it was different artists or not, I think there are different artists who flex digitally or not, or work better or more naturally inclined to work digitally, but it wasn't necessarily that question. It was very much what is the digital manifestation of our current, of our current program, the associate artists, we work with the associate companies we work with, what does that look like? And that would be in line with our brand and our artistic vision, right. That might change, you know, as we go forward, as we think more about the strategy, but thus far that has been the approach. However, what we have realized is doing that work has brought its own new audience. So it's not necessarily, we went out and we're like, who, you know, I think we've created propositions that created audiences. And I wouldn't want to make it sound like Sadler's Wells. Maybe there are folks who talked to who had fully formed plans and knew what they were doing. And we were, we were making it up as we went, we're still making it up as we go and we're testing things out. And that was the goal was, go try these things, see what sticks, don't spend too much money and just get dance out there and get people working like that. That, of course there are strategic documents and all the rest behind it, but like at a high level, that's what we were doing and I'm not going to dress it up. Like it was much more than that. And so I think what has been marvelous is that we have been able to try a lot of different things. So we did workshops series is we did Facebook premiers. We did pay to play on Vimeo. We've done, you know, artists talks, we've done, we're gonna do be doing digital film commissions and we've done them. So I think we we've tried a lot of different things and we're now starting to go, okay, what does that look like? And what does that meant? Um, and what is our goal for digital going forward, right. Because we don't necessarily want to go. Okay, great. So now when stage five for theaters can happen and everyone can come back, we'll just go back to way, the way we were. And I think what we need to understand is what is the answer for digital, the digital program as a core part of Sadler's Wells offering, based on what we've learned, that starts to answer your question, but why don't you tell me into what fits you when you want to go deeper?

Speaker 1: 17:12

So, so I guess, you know, as you say, you've done a lot of different things and it's, it's been really interesting to see, as you say, workshops aimed at people wanting to, to move and learn dance, learn from your, your dances, um, you know, Facebook premiers, things on Vimeo, all the, all these different manifestations of, as you say, the sort of saddle as Wells in-person program, it's been really interested in different channels, different formats. Um, what I guess, based on the results, the response you've seen so far, where do you feel the real successes thus far have, have been? Where are the things that you're like, Oh, we'll, we'll definitely try that again. Or there's we were surprised by the audience response to this particular piece or way of delivering work.

Speaker 2: 17:59

So I'll go through the quick laundry list of what we did, because I think it informs, so at the beginning of lockdown, we did 10 weeks of Facebook premiers of full length works that we're at least on Facebook and on YouTube for seven days, we also did a series of company of elders workshops, which were meant to be workshops for people over the age of 60 in global dance styles that they could access online for free. We also did it, a family dance workshop, which was meant for kids between the ages of two and six. And that was us very much going young kids stuck at home with their parents and older adults who were being isolated or actually the, the populations that we could really serve in this time that are being underserved, came out of that period and then made a couple of dance films, one in collaboration with the financial times, one by Johnsy D called our bodies back, which is beautiful. And anyone who hasn't seen it, please do it's powerful. And then we did dancing at dusk, which was a pay to access Vimeo on demand offering. And now we're going into a series of, um, collaborations with companies. So it's not us just licensing our commissioning content. It's us going? How do we work together to create a digital offering? That makes sense. And we're doing that with whole fish Schecter company can do co and Zulu nation, this autumn, right? So that's the full package as you, as it were. What has been surprising is how well the participatory work has done. So our learning and engagement team is fantastic. And we've been doing a lot of collaborations with them on building that entry level dance stuff. So the company of elders workshops, the family dance workshops, and now what we're calling to get into dance workshops, which is basically you could be in your home. Here are high-profile choreographers companies, artists giving you their time and sharing with you a way that you could take part in whatever their practice is. And we felt, for example, the company of elders workshops would go down really well with older people. It went down with 30 year olds, it went down, it went like people just want entryways to actually be able to dance and to enjoy that. And that was really surprising. And the international reach of that participatory content, for example, see the Patel did a part of an ITM workshop more than 800,000 views in India. Uh, I sounded suits did an, uh, cogni technique workshop. The five most reach countries were five countries in Africa that we have no presence in us, others' walls as a brand and all of a sudden going, Oh my goodness, we are serving populations and exposing the brand to populations who never would have seen this content with, with, with, with any other offering that we did. So I've been very surprised by that and we're going to, to serve audiences in that way. I think also we've just become as digital fatigue of audiences set in w w which I think we all can agree is, is the case. I think we're realizing that more and more audiences are not wanting live capture. And the fact that all of us gave live capture away for free for years, but especially at the beginning of lockdown means that most audiences don't think they should have to pay for live capture. And I think unless there are some that have been done beautifully and are brilliant, but for most audiences, it feels like second best to being in the theater. So if your goal is to show something to somebody and make them want to come to the theater, then it's a really great vehicle. But if you want to show somebody to something and have it be the best it can be and be the work you have to think digitally first. And so those are the projects that I think have done the best for us is the ones where we went. This is not a replication of what happened life. This is not trying to replace what happened life. This is instead meant to be consumed in this way.

Speaker 1: 21:46

And, and, uh, you know, a beautiful example of that final type of work, I think, is dancing it dusk, which is the piece that you commissioned, uh, in, uh, co-pro with the pina Bausch foundation and the echo disab, um, from Senegal. And, you know, this was, uh, uh, a company where we're going to tour the world's premier in Dhaka, a double bill. Um, and then days before the show was due to open, lockdown happens, the world stops. Um, but before the company disbands, they seize a moment. Um, and you know, the last rehearsal on a beach in Senegal, a filmmaker captures it. You know, it's not an accident that happens that was intended to happen, but it feels like such a, a fleeting moment that was so beautifully captured to be delivered to digital audiences in a digital and in a digital form. And as you say, you made that available on Vimeo, um, video, video on demand. It was paid for access. Can you just talk to me a bit about how, how that process went? I think, as you said, the, you know, probably 90 plus percent of digital cultural content since March has been made available online for free, mostly quite long form content. Um, as you say, a sort of fact, similarly, maybe over a live experience, whereas this is, this is not that, you know, there was not an audience on that beach in Senegal, the only audiences, the digital audience, um, how have audiences responded to that has, you know, the decision to charge for that. Does that feel like it's paid off? Has there been a return on that investment? Um, how have you found using Vimeo to distribute? So I guess I'm interested in hearing about all aspects of that project from an artistic point of view and audience point of view and operational point of view or commercial point of view. Um, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2: 23:59

So let's start with the, the original, right? So the original production was like you said, a co-production between Sadler's Wells, peanut bash foundation and vehicle, they sapped, and it was meant to tour the world, um, and get stopped. Now, the filmmaker that was there, he was, he was there to be capturing behind the scenes content, all the rest. What wasn't preplanned was that this rehearsal would happen. So we had a film crew on the ground, but this rehearsal wasn't going to happen. And this moment that was captured was impromptu. And so you, they, they kind of were like, well, let's do this. And then the filmmaker makes it. And then we, we heard like in senior management team meetings, there was like this, like, so they've shot the rightest spring on the beach. And like, all of us, there were weeks where everyone was like, so this beach film, where's the beach fill, like, what is the beach? Like, it's literally, so like, let's not pretend it's other swells or anybody else went in and was like, we're going to make this great digital offering as lockdowns coming down again. It's there's this film on the beach, has anyone seen said film? And I don't mean to, I think it's because so often I'm hearing podcasts of professionals talking like they like have really great, like everything, everything has foresight and maybe that's true, but that is, I don't want to paint a picture where it's like, yeah, we had this great foresight. We're going to do this thing because, you know, we knew the world was getting, going to lockdown and that's not the case. So finally get our hands on this beach film and get to see it. And we knew we wanted to, we wanted to try monetizing content and we knew if there was going to be anything that we could do it with. Once we saw this film, it was this. Um, so how did it go for us? It's, it's a success. We, we think of it as a success. I think the partners, peanut bash foundation equal do something for this success for a number of reasons. Um, and it, our original objectives for the project were not revenue. Uh, and I think that's important to say, we like we weren't going into this going, this is going to be a huge smash hit. We're gonna make ton of money. Instead. We wanted to serve audiences with really inspiring content. We wanted to increase the profile of the project of Rite of spring. So when it came back to tour, people would go see it and I'd heard of it. We wanted to treat it as a vehicle for a salvage was patron and membership retention. We were hoping it would bring some fundraising, some revenue for pay to access, but, um, vastly under what it ended up delivering in the end. And we wanted to test and learn, and we wanted to do some audience development. So be able to give it away for free to audiences that we're trying to, to build, um, at other schools. But those are our goals. So revenue is very far down, but we wanted to test, um, in the end, it ended up, uh, having more than eight and a half thousand sales. Um, but we set a very, uh, we set a price point. We spread a set of global price point of five pounds. Um, and that was for a couple of reasons, right? So pricing is tricky, but we set it at five pounds because we were looking at comparative offerings within the cultural sector and Amazon and Netflix and your Netflix subscription, like comparing that and going what feels right. Especially, we also didn't want to present this. Like it was a fully bone finished production. This was a rehearsal. And we wanted to treat it as such. It was very important to go. This isn't a finished production. The, these guys are still in the process of putting this together. So we set it at that price point. Now I'm not going to say pricing is without complexity, right? When you send a set of global price 0.5 pounds in Britain is not the same as five pounds in Bolivia. And when you just do currency calculation without pricing parody, it, it does disenfranchise certain populations. Unfortunately, our technical limitations meant that's what we had to do. Uh, if we were, if we had the capability, we might've thought about it differently, but anyway, so we set that price point, um, and we went to market with it. And, um, you know, I think an enormous amount of learning for the organization, a lot of key takeaways that came out of it. Um, I think the jury is still stands. What I think we would probably do things like get again, whether we would do it through Vimeo on demand would be an open question. Um, but I think the reason for its success across all dimensions of what we were trying to achieve was because it offered audiences, something, they were never going to get on stage. It wasn't a replacement for what they were going to get on stage. It captured a moment in time, in a beautiful way. And no matter how many tickets that audience goes to buy for peanut bashes, right. A spring on tour, which will be spectacular, this is different to that. And that I think is why it met all of our[inaudible]. We delivered on all of our KPIs on the project. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:04

Yeah. And it's, you know, it's, it's no longer available sadly, but for, for those of us who did see it, it was a very beautiful moving. It was very moving, um, piece of work. And yeah, as you say, something that you could only could only experience by watching that film

Speaker 2: 29:21

And it's stunning and, you know, I mean, one is a piece of art it's stunning to, you know, it created opportunities for those performers to earn money during lockdown, which is really meaningful. It created profile for the project in a time that was really meaningful. It, it landed in a of bad news everywhere around the world, and it was uplifting and beautiful. And, you know, I think we're super proud of it, but also we learned a lot from it and that's really valuable as an organization. We learned a ton. So I mean, you know, I, you know, we talk about paid. I don't know if this is useful. So tell me, tell me to stop. We move on to something else, but we talk about paid versus free. And, you know, like if you compare paid watch times to free watch times, if you compare engagement, when somebody, when w even if they haven't paid for it, if you've given it to them for free, if it has perceived financial value, the engagement is entirely different. Um, similarly like the, the, the, the Vimeo on demand model, it required this project in general required us as an organization to work in a much more agile way from start to finish, because we knew we were on a test and learn project. We set up all of the tracking beforehand, so that we were super data-driven all the way throughout and art are still working with that data now on making decisions in future. And so all of that stuff, I think it just adds up to like a really important moment for the organization and for this beautiful piece of work.

Speaker 1: 30:51

Yeah. And touch. Maybe my next question is, I guess, about the lasting impact of some of these experiments, some of these, um, new ways of working, because, you know, the cultural sector is, is, is not going to come out of this crisis. Unscathed. There is going to be more bad news before things get better. Um, but maybe with our optimist hats on, it feels like as well there, particularly on the, on the digital side of things, it is forced a pace of change and a sort of a, a shift in how digital activity is perhaps perceived that otherwise would have perhaps taken a much longer time. And I wonder what your perspective is currently, at least as we sit in the end of September 20, 20, things will undoubtedly change in the coming months, but at the moment, what does it feel like? Or what are you hoping that you all retain coming out the other side of, of the current crisis in terms of ways of working and, um, ways of commissioning and sort of, yeah. All, all of the new things that you've tried.

Speaker 2: 32:11

I think you hit the nail on the head that this was a journey that we were all collectively on as, as the cultural sector, as the arts sector going, we need to be able to serve digital audiences, but the pandemic has definitely sped that process up and has made naysayers very much understand its value. Right. It's just demonstrated it in a way that I was in a meeting recently where I've been saying this since I started my job. Um, and even before, but th that, you know, digital content, doesn't cannibalize live audiences, it can encourage them. It can be a gateway in all the rest. And I've naysayer recently parroted that back to me as if it was something that I was like, well, okay, mission accomplished, moving on next thing. And I think, you know, I think that's, that's been a cultural change in, in, in, in, in a theater. And I think what is, what is important to what will be an important? What I don't think has been answered is whether or not the structures of our sector, when this is over, we'll still want to return to a glorious past, or whether this is going to be part and parcel of what the future becomes. I hope it's the latter, but I'm a very, I'm very much a realist about institutions, about change and about, um, that, that that's a fundamental step change for, for, for an entire industry, whether or not that's possible or, or, and for long-standing institutions. I hope so, but I think what we would have to do is similar to our in artistic project, right? When w w when a choreographer goes out and makes it a piece of work, you have no idea whether that's going to be successful based on whatever your metric of success is. If it's a great piece of art, if audiences love it, if it actually makes revenue, all of those things, whatever, whatever the metric of success against a piece of work is, I think there's an inherent appetite to go risk is part of the game. And like any, like any industry that's trying something new. We have to be able to put money into things, get it wrong, and it not work and go, that's part of this journey digitally. And I think we, aren't going to have all the answers. We're going to have to take educated guesses and be allowed to fail along the way to finding the right answer. But what we do know already is when we do great things online that are meant for digital audiences, they, there is an audience. There is an appetite not going to make anybody rich, but it is a way to create accessibility for art that doesn't exist when you expect someone to physically turn up in London, that I think is really the crux of it. So you have to define, we have to define what it's for, right? If, if we go, our digital offerings are meant to replace the financial model of ticket buying for theaters in the past, I'm not sure that's going to work. If we go, this is a way to sort of our mission and to create halo effects throughout the rest of the organization on all the things we're trying to do, then I think there's a really exciting opportunity there. However, and second, the number of shows you can put in a theater that will sell tickets, cover their own costs is finite relatively five minutes. You know, I don't want to endless possibilities obviously, but you know what I mean? I think digital productions or digital work gives us the opportunity to open the pool of commissioning, open the pool. Who's able to put their work on Sadler's Wells, branded universes. That can only be a good thing for diversifying the output and making it better over time. And so that's what I'm super excited about. But again, the jury is out on whether that changes or not. I'm doing my little bit. And I think the last thing is ways of working. I think most organizations, you know, like a lot of organizations in the sector, we furloughed about 90% of staff during this time. So we've had to work super agile, super cross-functional everybody's flex different skills and learned along the way. And that hopefully that culture of way of working will remain with us, um, perhaps in a less stressful and more sustainable way, but still the principles apply

Speaker 3: 36:40

Brilliant. Well, I'm, I'm looking forward to what settled as well as does for the rest of the crisis and beyond

Speaker 2: 36:47

Cute to check it out. I mean, it's, it's an exciting time despite all of the bad news, so let's, let's see what we can.

Speaker 3: 36:54

Yeah.