Dating: Navigating The Highs And Lows With Sexless In The City Author, Kat Harris

Today’s guest is writer, podcaster, and photographer Kat Harris, A thirty-something-year-old virgin and author of the upcoming book Sexless in the City. In her new book, Kat covers topics that people want answers to but are too afraid to ask. Kat and Kerry cover topics such as sex, singleness, and relationships. Kat share’s her wisdom, what she's learned dating in NYC for a decade, and how she’s discovered to live with sexual integrity in singleness. Kat's passion is giving others the tools they need to navigate today's dating culture with vision, clarity, and freedom. We discuss how to show up in dating, how we choose certain people to date and why we should have faith in God’s master plan for our love life! 

Kat Harris is the host of The Refined Collective Podcast and co-founder of the online publication The Refined Woman. Her first book Sexless in the City will hit bookstores this month on 4/20. She has also been a full-time photographer for the past 15 years with work featured in Vanity Fair, GQ, Forbes, People, US Weekly, and Glamour UK, to name A few. Kat coaches people worldwide in dating, relationships, and singleness and how to build a renewed healthy biblical sexual ethic rooted in truth and grace instead of the common shame and fear narratives somany experienced growing up in the evangelical culture. 

Dating can be frustrating and lonely, but there are strategies which can be helpful in your dating journey. Kat and Kerry talk about what's possible for today’s single. Topics include:
What photographing weddings taught us about love and marriage.
The importance of mindset and believing in finding love.
How do you approach dating? Do you have a good attitude or are you negative?
If you think dating during a pandemic is too hard then it will be a block.
The importance of identifying the core values you want in a partner.
How society and spiritual beliefs shape what we want in a person.
Why you should be clear and open about what you want. You can’t get what you don’t ask for.
What if we were as intentional in dating as we are in our careers?
How to navigate the highs and lows of dating.
Why you should play big online and every area of your life.
Why we should give up limiting beliefs that keep us playing small.
What if online could work?  Look  for evidence that is does work.
How to stay positive when things don’t work out the way  you planned or hoped.
Why you should give yourself permission to imagine.

To find out more about Kat Harris go to www.therefinedwoman.com, follow on Instagram @therefinedwoman or listen to her podcast The Refined Collective. Purchase her upcoming book Sexless in the City at www.sexlessinthecity.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

I'm Carrie. Right. And miss the shot at love. Today's guest is brighter podcasts and photographer, Pat Harris, a 30 something year old, Virgin and author of the upcoming book, sexless in the city and her new book. Cat covers topics that people want answers to, but are too afraid to ask. Pat, NEI will cover topics such as sex, singleness and relationships. Cat will share her wisdom when she's learned dating and NYC for a decade and how she's discovered to live with sexual integrity and singleness cat's passion is giving others the tools they need to navigate. Today's dating culture with vision, clarity and freedom. We will discuss how to show up in dating how you choose certain people to date and why we should have faith in God's master plan for our love life. You won't want to miss it. So stay tuned. Cat Harris is a host of the refined collective podcast and the co-founder of the online publication

Speaker 2: 1:05

Find woman. Her first book sexism, the city will hit bookstores this month on four 20. She's also been a full-time photographer for the past 10 years with work featured in vanity fair, GQ, Forbes, people, us weekly and glamour UK to name a few cat coaches, people worldwide in dating relationships and singleness. She also teaches others how to build a healthy, biblical sexual ethic rooted in truth and grace instead of the common shame and fear narratives. So many experience growing up in the Christian culture dating can be frustrating and lonely, but there are strategies that can be helpful in your dating journey. Kat and I are going to talk about what's possible for today's single. I'm so excited to have Kat share her advice and hear the heartbeat behind her new book, sexless in the city without further ado. Welcome Kat.

Speaker 3: 1:58

What's up, Carrie. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be connecting with you. I know this is great. So

Speaker 2: 2:06

From being a professional photographer, you also co-founded this online publication and then created a podcast and you're a dating coach. I it's amazing.

Speaker 3: 2:19

Thank you. Yeah. I feel like you and I have kind of a, we have this synergy of being photographer, talking about love and relationships and podcasting, all the things. So I'm so excited to connect with you. And also your podcast voice is amazing. I mean, when you started reading the intro, I was like, okay, Carrie, here we go. Like fire it.

Speaker 2: 2:46

I love your voice too. And it's funny how there's so much behind the voice, you know, because, and I don't even think it's so much the voice. I think it's the heart and the like willingness to be truthful and just like put it out there. And that's what I love about you. Like, you just own it, everything you say, you're like, whatever, like I'm having a panic attack in the bathroom stall and a wedding, like whatever. And I feel that, and I admire you for that because you're very evolved.

Speaker 3: 3:18

Oh gosh. I mean, thank you so much. I, I, I sometimes don't feel very involved. I just feel like a human that's in process. And I think I have just always been this way since I was. I feel like I came out of the womb with an opinion, ruffling feathers and just, Hey, there's a, there's an elephant in the room. Are we going to talk about it? Hey, I just have always kind of been a heart on my sleeve type person to my detriment and to my benefit. And so, um, I think I in my career and definitely when I started doing the refined woman, I kept that quiet a little bit because I think I was trying to be all things to all people. And I finally realized I was crushing myself and playing small in that. And I also felt like man, the best way for other people to be freely, who they are, which was so much of my message was for me to be fully who I am and stop being afraid of. Oh my gosh, is this person going to reject me? If I say X, Y, Z, is this person gonna reject me? No. Like if I am like stuffing my truth, first of all, I'm slowly dying. And then I'm perpetuating a message that says we can't be ourselves. And so it's definitely been a process over the last 10 years or so of me really kind of stepping more and more into who I've always been and who you were meant to be. Right. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:53

I think as you get older, you're just so dumb. You're so tired of trying to fit in and, and be someone that you're not, and it gets tiring.

Speaker 3: 5:07

Exactly. And I think it can also, I don't know if you've experienced this Carrie, but there in the last few years, I think a question that I've asked myself is who actually am I, who am I outside of who I think other people want me to be, who I'm afraid of being. I think sometimes, and we can get into this with my book. I mean, so much of the Genesis of my book was getting to a place where I finally was like, no more. I have no idea what I believe about God. I have no idea what I believe about sex or intimacy, gender roles, all the things outside of what other people have told me to believe that I've sort of accepted as gospel truth. And it was really scary to give myself the permission to, I don't know if I believe this and I need to figure out who I am. I need to figure out what I believe. And yeah, I'm so grateful that I ended up going on on that journey. But I think so often it's so easy just to not pause and say, well, hold on a second. Do I believe what I'm adhering to do? I believe do I really, to a fundamental core level, believe the scripts I've been given about who I am as a woman. Do I believe what I've been taught about my role in my career, but I believe what I've been told culturally or via religious institutions about sexuality, um, my work identity, all of that. And it makes me, I feel like it sounds so cliche. I feel like I've been thinking and cliche so often lately, but I'm like maybe cliches are there because they're true. But it seems like truly giving ourselves permission to explore who we are is the road less traveled because it's scary to step outside the expectation of who everyone else says you should or could be.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Well, I'm watching you, like, I'm like your spiritual elder or something where I started shooting covers when I was 20. And so, and so by the time I hit 30, I was already at it like a midlife crisis because I was so hard in my twenties where it was like, I need to be a master photographer. I need to be lecturing. I needed to be, I needed to be check everything. Like I had to be. I was rising at such a level and put so much pressure on myself. And I became pregnant when I was 29, had my daughter when I was 30. And, and I look at those 10 years, and then I look at the years from 30 to 40. And I think your path is, has unfolded exactly the way it has supposed to do, because I just know when I was creating this wiping soiree seminar that I created and working full-time as a photographer and creating this podcast, it took so much time away from my family in a sense. And my, my boyfriend that there's only so much time, like life is like a vacuum. And I just believe you were supposed to create this, this empire really and learn all the lessons so that you could be like fully evolved to be in the place where you wrote this book to then pull in love because you could have, it could have been a lot more challenging. And I feel like because you have such gifts as a communicator, you were like, you were definitely protected by not finding that person at the time so that you could do other things.

Speaker 3: 8:46

Yeah. I mean, hearing you say that is, it's just so interesting, I think, because it's so true, right? I mean, I can only look back in 2020 hindsight and be like, thank God. I did not get married in Bible school. And I was 20 years old. Like I thought I would thank God, the guy that I thought I was getting married to in my mid twenties, even after he asked for my dad's permission to propose, thank God he got cold feet because I would most likely be divorced by now or in a marriage. That was me abandoning myself. And I think that there were so many relationships that I can look back in my twenties where the guy ended up rejecting me before I rejected him. And I'm so grateful because I think I wouldn't have had the courage to walk away. And I, I think I was in a place where I didn't know I was in the place of low self-worth, but I was so hungry for love that something felt better than nothing. And so I was willing to compromise who I am, my calling my purpose, because I just so wanted love. And now as a 35 year old single person, I'm like, Oh my gosh, thank God. Nothing worked out until now. And, and I've even wondered maybe 10 years from now. I'll be like, well, I'll say God, you know, whatever, it didn't work out because it, every step of it has led me to the path where I am today. And I mean, if I would have gotten married at 20, like was my plan all those years ago, I definitely would not have become a photographer because that happens by me leaving Southern conservative Christian culture and moving to California. When I started my own business, I wouldn't have gotten to travel the world. I wouldn't have gotten to meet the people who have transformed my life, my faith, my sexuality, and 1000% would not be writing a book. Right. Um, so I, I, it's interesting, like I do see the purpose in it. And in that, like, even when you see the purpose in, it doesn't mean that it was easy. Like it's been effing hard and it's, it's hard to, it's hard to go through breakups and heartache and rejection. And I feel like I told my mom recently, I was like, it. I'm not single for, for lack of trying, I've put in my 10,000 hours. But even just recently, I've had some swings and misses and rejections and I'm like, Ugh, like it sucks. Yeah. To be, to be open to love is to be open to pain. And so how can I keep holding the tension of both? And yeah, that's

Speaker 2: 11:29

Fox is driving, crying over heartbreak on your way to shoot a wedding

Speaker 3: 11:37

Or like sobbing when the bride is walking down the aisle. Cause you're like, Oh my gosh, it's never going to happen.

Speaker 2: 11:42

I'm really notorious for like crying the father, daughter dance, like in the corner. Oh yeah. Or saying how much I've cried at people's weddings. See, I don't think it's embarrassing.

Speaker 3: 11:54

I actually think it's really beautiful because I think it means that I haven't shut my heart off. That's true. Like I like have given myself permission to feel and say, Oh wow, like this is tender because I have not shut my heart off for a love and

Speaker 2: 12:12

A lot of love and passion to show up as a wedding photographer, especially like in a suit on a hundred degree day. And in the past 10 years, you've shot 300 weddings. So 30 weddings in a year is a lot and I shot 30 weddings a year. I got married to pay for my wedding. And then I had to shoot 900 weddings to pay for my divorce. But

Speaker 3: 12:37

Oh, that's, that's a, that's a conversation over some wine.

Speaker 2: 12:41

That's another podcast.

Speaker 3: 12:42

Yeah. Seriously. Wow.

Speaker 2: 12:45

So, you know, I get it. It's hard work, but if you can shoot weddings at the level that you do, you certainly can rock these online dating sites.

Speaker 3: 12:58

I mean, I think if anything, I think being a full time photographer, you know, I, I don't really shoot a ton of weddings anymore, but I shot them full time for years and years. And I've also been a bridesmaid 17 times and yeah, like

Speaker 2: 13:17

[inaudible],

Speaker 3: 13:18

Oh my gosh. But I think in that, I feel like I'm always shocked at when people choose to get married. You know, we live in a time where people don't need to get married. You know, it's not like it was in during the Bridgehampton era where and 18 hundreds, where women could not exist if they did not have the covering of a husband. And I just think it's so powerful that two people come together and the stars kind of have to align, right. Like, Oh my gosh, like first you have to meet and we have to work through our baggage and then say, okay, see you, I see all of you. You're good. You're bad. You're your baggage. And I choose you. And that has always felt so profound to me when every single wedding I shoot, even though, you know, you definitely shoot those weddings where you're like, Oh, I wonder how long this is going to last. Right. Um, you know, Oh, you totally know. Right. But in that, it's also felt like encouraging. And also, I feel like on the flip side of that, I know that I know that I know that, um, a marriage is so much more than wedding day and it can so easily just become about the focus of the wedding and creating and manufacturing this Pinterest moment. And you see the couples that are like, Oh wow. Like when this party is over and you guys actually have to be with each other, what's there going to be like, money does not buy you happiness. If there's anything I've learned. And the industry for almost 15 years now, money does not buy you happiness. A beautiful wedding does not buy you happiness, a partner, doesn't your daddy issues. And so I think I've seen like the profundity of marriage through wedding photography and also just how easy it is to get wrapped up in a world and forget about the person you are committing to. And it's, I mean, I feel like weddings are some of the most stressful times. I think there's only a few times in our life where everyone feels like they have permission and entitlement to give you their 2 cents. And I think one of those was when you get married and then when you have a baby, everyone's like, Oh, don't name them. That that's disgusting. Well, you need to have this baby Dior. And like, well, first of all, I didn't ask you. And then I think with weddings, it's not only is it, first of all, this is my commitment to this person, but it's, your mom has had expectations your whole life about your mom and then his mom and then your siblings. And then it's, everyone's coming with expectations and opinion. And I think it can be so easy to forget actually like, Oh, this is about me and my partner. And like, let's quiet the other voices, which I feel like also if we zoom out, I think how we show up for one thing is how we show up for everything. And every other area of my life, am I becoming a slave to what everyone else around me thinks I should do things I should be thinks. I thinks whatever. Um, I think it can be so easy just to lose yourself and forget who am I outside of? What all these other people want me to be

Speaker 2: 16:21

Crazy. And I can't tell you how many people I know will say, I knew walking down the aisle, that it wasn't going to work, but then it's becomes so much bigger than them. They can't get out.

Speaker 3: 16:35

Yeah. Yeah. Well you can, but it takes a lot of courage and awareness and yeah, I mean, I've thought about, I don't know if you've ever thought about this, but I've shot weddings where they broke up a month later. I shot a wedding where they were already broken up, but their parents made them get married because they paid for this big fancy party. And I've also had, I, it hasn't happened to me, but I had a friend who got to the wedding to start shooting, getting ready and the, like the groom called a doc. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:09

That like someone not show. And then, you know, someone's passed out or there are a lot of times I've had where the couples are brawling entirely. Yeah. Just add each other. Like it's like so painful to watch. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:26

I've wondered. What would I do in that situation? If I woke up on my wedding day and knew like, this is the wrong decision, like I should not be with this person. Would I have the courage to cancel it or what I'd be like, everyone's already here. Let's just get through this day. We'll get an enormous and a little bit, like, I kind of have respect where the person that cancels it before the ceremony, because I'm going to be real. I don't know if I could have that courage.

Speaker 2: 17:56

Yeah. Well that's why they say the first year of marriage is so challenging because that's when it becomes real.

Speaker 3: 18:05

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 18:08

It's, it's interesting. I mean, I've been married, I've been divorced. Then I also lived with someone for about a decade. And so I don't really, I have my own opinions about a piece of paper and a ring and all that, because I don't think that's going to hold you together. And I think a child's going to hold you together. I think honor, and respect and showing up every day for that person is going to hold you together. And I think with COVID, it's changed the wedding landscape for sure. It's just an interesting time. It really is. It's it's, it's like an awakening.

Speaker 3: 18:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is the first time any of us in our generation has our generation, uh, gen Z or millennials, baby boomers. This is the first time we've gone through anything like this. And Bernay Brown called FFTs like our effing first time. And just how, when you're going through something for the first time, there's so much unknown. And we go through first things all the time when we're younger, but the older we get the last, we like to try new things because we, it feels vulnerable. It's scary. We don't want to be bad at new things. So we kind of let the muscle of discomfort, atrophy and what Bernie Brown talks about in her FFT theory. And she has a podcast on it and talks about it a lot is she's like we have to be willing to normalize discomfort and unknown because that's the magic sauce. Like when we step into discomfort and unknown as typically the beginning of breakthrough, but we don't like that. And what we've all been in for the last year is like the effing first time, that's something we've never experienced before and will never be the same after it's all over. When it's all over, it will forever change us. And we just don't know what it's gonna look like on the other side, I think we forget like, Oh my gosh, there's so much unknown here. Like, is this going to change weddings? Of course. Is it going to change every other aspect of our lives? Totally.

Speaker 2: 20:14

Well, I think we're stripping down to the basics. Like what really matters? We don't need to have, like, I don't know. I just think people are going to be changed forever. And I don't think we're going to go back to normal at all. Like I think that there's going to be a new normal

Speaker 3: 20:32

Yeah. Whatever, whatever that is.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Right. Right. So T so tell us about your new book coming out. Give me an elevator pitch.

Speaker 3: 20:43

Oh my gosh. I'm so bad at the elevator pitch, you would think by now it habit, but essentially sexual tonicity is my story of growing up in Southern conservative Christian culture and learning a set of rules and do's, and don'ts about my body sex, dating, gender roles, all of those things, and really never questioning them because I loved God and I wanted to quote unquote, do it God's way. And so I thought these people are telling me the truth. I'm going to trust that. And so I decided I'm not going to have sex until marriage because, you know, I was taught to Christians, don't have sex until marriage. And didn't ever really question that they didn't really date much until I moved to New York city about 10 years ago and dated more in one year than I had in a decade and fell in love, got heartbroken and really on the heels of this one, heartbreak, I sort of got this fork in the road where I was just like, I don't know what I believe about God and about sex. And I'm tired of not having sex. And I feel like I might be the only person left in the world. This is not having sex. And so I need to figure out what I believe. And so the book is going through kind of all the questions I asked, like, what does the Bible really say about sex? What narratives are rooted in shame about my body and sexuality that don't work. And like women, like in a sense, here's a few, like women are less sexual than men. So women need to cover up their bodies so that men can not be animals that there's sexual desire. I ask questions like, you know, what, what are the gender roles we've been given from society and the church and how are, how and why are those not working? And is there, is there a way that we can take shame out of the conversation and rebuild a healthy sexual ethic that's rooted in wholeness and freedom as opposed to shame or external obligation? So that's, that's a little bit of my book. I still don't know how to say that in 30 seconds, but that's, it

Speaker 2: 22:57

Sounds good. I mean, I think it's brave of you to talk about your background. And I was listening to one episode where they were saying that a lot of people are leaving the church because like in droves, because it's not, there's been so much profound change in the world since COVID that people are questioning their beliefs.

Speaker 3: 23:26

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, myself included, I have not gone to church quote unquote, I gone to a church building and a year and I have gone to church for 20 plus years on a weekly basis and not spend a huge of my life. So to have that stripped from me has been a hard thing, but also a very enlightening thing of how, when something is sort of taken away, we have the opportunity to examine what here's working, what isn't working. And I think there's so much disillusionment with Christian culture in America right now. I mean, we look at the politics and the policies of the, our previous president and things like black lives matter things like the Capitol being stormed this January and not to mention that evangelical pastor after evangelical pastor is being exposed for sexual scandal over and over again. And I just think we're kind of in a reckoning and the church in America, like the church has not been living what it's been preaching and it's, there's, there's injustice, there's oppression. And so what do we do with that? Like in my, what I think is I think that the American church built a house of cards and with the pandemic, with politics of the last year with things like BLM, like that house of cards has calmed down. Yeah. That's interesting. And so do we rebuild it? Do we leave it altogether? Like what do we do think a lot of people are asking those questions right now?

Speaker 2: 25:06

Well, I feel like in Boston being a Catholic, it's definitely different than being in Texas being a Christian, you know, but we still believe in God, we just go to a different church. Right. So we went through that where the churches became empty, you know, because of scandals. And it was, it was definitely trying, but I feel, well, I can't really sit in church because I have add, but I'm religious and spiritual, but I just feel like how we live our life is how we pray to God in a sense, like, how are we treating others? How are we showing up every day? And so I'm interested in that, like, how does this go with you on online? And like, no, I'm seriously. Yeah. Because I never once and I was online for a long time, but I never once revealed. And it was a different time. Like I didn't have to reveal my political beliefs or my religious beliefs and it never came up ever, which I'm like questioning. Cause I'm like, this is crazy because do you, do you just like tell people straight up, like I'm Christian, so I know you've dated non-Christians but you're looking for a Christian. Is that right?

Speaker 3: 26:36

Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like we could even unpack that because I feel like that has even changed so much over the last of cash. Okay. I want to be with someone that shares my spiritual language, but also like, who did you vote for? And do you believe that racism exists in America? And did you, would you have storms at the Capitol and you wear a mask or don't yeah. And so I think there's so much even that has shifted in me in the last few years of yes, man. I, at the core of my faith impacts how I experienced myself, how I experienced others, the world around me, God, and to have another person, my closest person, my partner be able to be on that same wavelength feels so valuable to me. And it also feels different than it's ever felt before, because I think definitely in my twenties, it was like, Oh, as long as they have this label of Christian on them, then we'll work. We'll figure everything else out. And now I'm like, almost like the idea, all you need is love. It was like, all you needed was to be a Christian and then we'd figure everything else out. And now I'm like, actually I don't believe that all you need is love. Like, do we have like love and integrity, vulnerability, honesty, growth mindset. And I feel that way, similarly, when I'm thinking about, gosh, I want to be with a person who has some sort of faith or conversation with God. And, and kinda like you were saying a few minutes ago, like, how are they showing up in the world? Are they kind generous? Do they have integrity and be humble? So yeah, it, it does. And it can make dating complicated for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:23

This is why I'm I, as your spiritual elder that I'm just name myself as being, this is why we're protected and didn't get married at that time because you were just, you were way evolved. You didn't know that. And so the rejection was protection, but in the Christian Church, there are millions of more Christian women than Christian men. And you've compared the competition for, for a Christian men, like being on the bachelor is it is a tad hard to find a godly man and the Christian Church. And seriously, is there 25 girls in Bible study after that one guy?

Speaker 3: 29:05

I mean, here's a, okay. So I approach this from like two different lenses. Um, it's like a, both and for me is yes. Dating and the church can feel like being on an episode of the bachelor. There's all these amazing bad-ass women. And there's like one or two guys that you're like, if we're all being honest, like, do we really want to date this guy? No. I mean, there are incredible guys, but the reality is, is that the numbers are skewed. There historically are more women and the church than men. And I mean, even I lived in New York city, the last decade and New York city alone is two college educated women to every college educated male. And that's not taking into account. I don't know, do they want to get married or they want to have kids like, do we share a phase or do they have integrity, growth mindset, all these other things. So I think that, that those numbers can, uh, the chasm can grow bigger and bigger. And, and so yes, if there are more women in the church and that's hard. And I also believe that mindset is really powerful. And I believe that if, when I enter into a situation with a scarcity mindset, that's all I'm going to find the evidence for. So I think it's like a both and of acknowledging, okay, there's more women here. And like, I feel like the invitation of faith is to lean into possibility and to lean into hope. And if I believe that dating in the church sucks, if I believe that there are no good guys left, all the good ones are already taken. Then I create that result in my life, in the, in the scriptures. There's a, this idea to take our thoughts captive and to think on things that are lovely, pure, good, kind, generous. And I think there's like an invitation there too, that the scriptures teach that our mindset helps shape our reality and what we repeat, we strengthened. So it's like, it's definitely a both answer for me. Is there a reality where like dating and the church can be hard and there are less men than women. Yes. And I believe that our mindsets, our power,

Speaker 2: 31:17

I agree. And I think you attract you, you know, you attract what you mirror, like, whatever you're putting out there, you're going to pull that back in. And I know that from my dating, but Tinder, you know, you talk about the, the Christian Church being just like the bachelor being on the bachelor, but the Tinder, the dating app, it's two to one male versus women. So there's double the amount of men than women on that dating site. So that's awesome. Right. So, but because women, a lot of women are afraid to go on that site. Like they would, they would rather tan, you know, go towards Bumble.

Speaker 3: 32:01

Right. Well, I mean, I think the reality is, uh, different dating apps have different reputations, right? So what's the reputation of Tinder. Why was Tinder created? Toronto is created to be a hookup app. It's a reason why there are more men on it than women because of the Genesis of why it was created as opposed to an app like Bumble, like you mentioned, Bumble was created by a girl who left tender. Right. She helped, I think she was running it with her then

Speaker 2: 32:34

Tinder Whitney Wolf. And, but I feel like so Whitney was young at the time. So when Tinder first came out, it was built for young people, people in their twenties. So people in their twenties, hookup, you know, because they're not serious, they're just learning. They're just figuring it all out. But then as it grew, it expanded to different age groups. And so I just love watching the different age groups on the app because when you're in your fifties or your sixties, you're not hooking up because it's exhausting and you have a reputation to uphold and you're, you're valued in your community and you ha you're a parent or whatever. So it's interesting how that perception of being a hookup site still remains. But it isn't really true.

Speaker 3: 33:28

I think it just, honestly, I think I just want to be open to, you know, you can meet your person anytime, anyway, any place like there is no formula. And so I think try out tender, try out hinge, try, try on a matchmaker. I mean, I just think, I think the important part is being clear on what is it that I want, what is it that I'm looking for? So when I know what I want, it helps inform how I want to walk out today. And then from there, how can I be intentional about it? And am I open to the possibility that love could happen? A way that I don't expect it? And the reality is over half of heterosexual couples in America meet online. So online dating isn't going anywhere. I think it's our mindset that needs to shift around it. That being said, I have one of the most conservative friends in my life, met another very conservative guy on Tinder and dated long-term. I mean, you can meet someone anyway. Like I think part of it is being open to the possibility of it. Is it possible that Tinder could be more of a hookup site? Yeah. It's also possible that you can meet someone on there, right?

Speaker 2: 34:47

Yeah. I'm a Tinder success story. So yeah, it can totally happen.

Speaker 4: 34:56

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Speaker 2: 35:32

And storylines and like blocks that people have. And I know you've been really helpful with people removing blocks. What would your tip be to, to empower others to get back out there?

Speaker 3: 35:45

Gosh, like in online or just in general?

Speaker 2: 35:50

Well, I feel like the pandemic has been a block and I'm sure, you know, I hear all the time. I'm not dating in a mask and in, you've probably had to adjust like you probably have done virtual dating and things. You never thought you would do. I'm not sure. I'm just assuming, but yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:06

Yeah. I mean, I think let's all have grace with ourselves. Like the whole Bernay Brown thing, FFT, this is our first time going through a pandemic and, and the pandemic is a block. If I say it is right period. And I have actually had eight people in my life, eight people meet and th this isn't just like, Oh, this is a stranger. This was like people that I am friends with, that I know in real life in the flesh have met their partner and got married in the last year.

Speaker 2: 36:41

Right. Because they, they didn't go to college or they didn't go to take that job. They didn't do whatever. And the, the pandemic put them in the room.

Speaker 3: 36:53

Right. So it is. And so I think, first of all, like how do you get back out there, be open to possibility, be open to love, looking different than you thought it could look for yourself and be intentional. Oh my gosh, I feel like we are intentional. We're the most intentional beings in America about, or I'll say in the last about our careers, we'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on education. I mean, I, myself moved cross country twice for one, was for an internship where I made$7 a day. So I could get the experience. I worked for a photographer for over three years, making less than$15 an hour, because I just wanted to learn from him. Cause he was the best of the best. I moved to New York city and made less than$20,000 my first year as a photographer there and was sharing a bed with my best friend, because I was so broke. Like I was willing to do anything and everything to learn, have my career explode to chase my dreams, but with love where like, Oh, well I don't want to play God. Or when it happens or it's going to happen when I'm content it's going to happen when I least expect it. And I think we use like spiritual bypass language or I I'm more traditional. I want a guy to pursue me. And so really we're hiding out, especially as women. And first of all, if you're watching the bachelor or bachelorette every night, like, guess what? He's not going to find you unless you're planning on marrying the Amazon delivery guy, which you should, maybe he's an awesome guy. Um, but I think what is, I, we were just as intentional about our love life as we were about a career, right? Like what if I spent time and money and resources and investing into my love life? Like, wow, what a concept? What if we did that? I don't know

Speaker 2: 38:56

People don't, it's fascinating to me because I think about you and I'm like, if you could live in New York city for, with$20,000 yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:05

A year and I can do anything,

Speaker 2: 39:08

Do anything you really can and take it from someone who shot way too many weddings in their day. I know how strong you are. And you're certainly strong enough to survive on these dating apps. And all of us are, it's just, we have to give ourselves a chance.

Speaker 3: 39:24

Yeah. And I think what happens, I think underneath the excuses, the limiting beliefs, because they're limiting beliefs, all online dating is don't work. Or guys don't like women like needs guys. Don't like strong women. I'm too independent. These are all really self-preservation narratives because it's much harder to sit with the space of how, you know, I really long to be in a relationship. And up until this point, it hasn't happened yet. That's hard, that's disappointing. We don't want to feel disappointment. We don't want to feel pain or rejection or failure. And so we pretend that we don't want the thing. We pretend that, Oh, like, ah, I'm an independent woman. I don't need you. Um, and I actually, I came across a couple of women recently who on their Instagram profile say that they are intentionally single as in, they're choosing to be single. They don't want to be in a relationship. And I'm like, I know these women, I have had conversations with them. I know they want to be in a relationship, but it's way less vulnerable to self reject as opposed to putting myself in the position where I could open myself up to love and possibly be rejected. And so I just wonder what would happen if we sat with the longing. Well, as opposed to trying to pretend it's not there or pretend like we don't really want something or pretend like it'll happen. And really we're just trying to protect ourselves from being hurt.

Speaker 2: 40:59

I agree. But there's this horrible stigma around being single and whether you're single and it hasn't happened for you and you haven't been married yet, or you're someone like me who was dating with a baby and then a decade later was on Tinder at 43.

Speaker 3: 41:15

Those

Speaker 2: 41:15

Are things that didn't work out and didn't happen for me. If that makes sense. You know, it's, it's not how it shows up. So whether you just didn't get married yet, or you dodged a couple of bullets, like it all is the same. And it's like the timeline that people get frustrated with.

Speaker 3: 41:36

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:39

And I know you talked about the process for moving to New York city back to Texas, and you said you felt sad. You were leaving New York without a partner. And most of us have regrets about these timelines and things not working out, but I think how we frame it in our mind matters. And if we can shift our perspective on what life looks like in the future, and I think where you stay positive and open and believe that anything's possible and dating is how you balance the highs and lows.

Speaker 3: 42:10

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Like giving ourselves the permission to feel the things. And, and yeah, like you mentioned, I probably stayed in New York a year or two too long after my expiration date. And part of that is I kind of how I refer to New York is like New York is that passionate lover that is like unsustainable. Right. But you're like, it's the best sex of my life. But he kind of like pushes me down the stairs sometimes and gives me black eyes. Like, but, uh, but no, I love it. Like New York is this like amazing energetic place. And also it was, it was like killing me slowly, physically being there. But I think I had to wrap my head around, Oh my gosh, I have this subconscious agenda that I would move to New York. I moved from LA and I was like, I'm going to have my five years in New York. I'm going to meet an incredible partner there, we'll leave, maybe move to Texas or Denver back to California start having kids. And I didn't realize how attached I was to my agenda. So by the time it was okay, it's time for me to leave. I felt like, wow, even considering this feels like a failure, I feel so sad because I never thought and never crossed my mind that it wouldn't happen for me the way I thought it would. And I had to finally get to a place where I surrendered that because I don't want to stay in a place just because I'm afraid of things not going the way I thought they would go. And I think it's, I think women have a different experience than men, just for the pure sense that we have a different biological clock. You know, for the first time in my life, I was talking to my family this, this weekend. Um, we were all in town for Easter and I was like, you know, I'm thinking about if I don't meet someone in the next couple of years, like, do I want to, um, have my own baby? I would,

Speaker 2: 44:20

Do you even go there? I wouldn't even do that because it's like, when you say, Oh, well it didn't work out in New York city in this timeline didn't happen. It's like, Oh, I should have left my marriage three years prior. Or I sh I waited to my child was a certain age, like all that is gone, all that is the past, you know? So I feel like I understand cause you're like a planner and an overachiever and you're just like, and it's good to have goals and like have that course. And it's all good. And we all do it. You know? Like,

Speaker 3: 44:54

Well, I think it's beautiful to give ourselves the permission to imagine what could life be like? You know, instead of not thinking about something, because we're afraid of that reality happening. What if we gave ourselves a permission to, I think it's like playing dress up as a kid. Imagine what could life look like if I lived in New York, what could life look like if I had my own baby, what would that, what would that mean for me? What would it look like if I bought a house? Like, I think so much of life happens when we give ourselves the permission to imagine and to let ourselves try things on so to speak metaphorically, as opposed to, I'm not even going to think about that reality because that's not the plan I have for my life. Like, Oh, what if we just like, let ourselves imagine it doesn't mean we have to do the thing, but what if we gave ourselves permission to explore? Okay.

Speaker 2: 45:48

Well think about how you've lived your life thus far, as far as creating this online publication and this podcast and how it's opened up your world, because you said goodbye to playing small. So you just have to do the same blueprint. You already know how to build, build it. You know how to play big. And I just wish everyone listening would play big online

Speaker 3: 46:19

Or what if we just played big in our life online and every area of our life. Because again, how we show up for one thing is how we show up for everything. It's where am I playing small? Where am I hiding? Where am I self rejecting so that I won't be rejected by others? Where am I believing something? A belief that is keeping me small. It's whether that's career love, life, family, relationships, physical fitness, whatever it is. Like, I think we have so much like really like the world is our oyster. If we choose it to be,

Speaker 2: 46:58

I agree. I agree. So I'm going to ask the last question. You have this life board of directors, people who are older, I'm want to be one of those people for dating anyways, because I feel like we all need sounding boards. We totally do. Um, but you have these, this group in your life that help you, correct? You know, course, correct. When you get out of alignment and you, and you feel that shifts come in small moments, can you offer a small shift that would be helpful to people who are navigating online? Dating?

Speaker 3: 47:33

Yeah. Small shift. I mean, again, I feel like, uh, maybe it perhaps a broken record, but like what if you were open? What if, what if online dating could work? It can. What if, what if, and I think so much of how we show up with online dating is like begrudgingly, uh, labs are online, put myself out there and then we're just our, our brains are pattern makers, like neurologically our brains are always looking for evidence. So what if your small shift was looking for evidence that online dating could work? Oh, I love that. And then take it a step further. What if like you don't have to online date for the rest of your life, but what if you did it intentionally for three months? And what if your goal was in that three months to go on three dates? Like your goal? Isn't like, I'm going to date and meet my partner for the rest of my life. Like, what if I, on the heels of a pandemic where a lot of us haven't been dating, a lot of us hadn't been out there in the last year. What if we decrease the pressure and said, you know, in three months I want to go on three dates. So in that three months, I'm going to commit to going on my app six days a week for 20 minutes, a day, 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the evening. And I'm going to swipe, I'm going to practice flirting again. I'm going to practice asking people out. I'm going to practice setting dates. Um, what if you did that? It's like, great, great. I mean, you could, instead of being like at the end of three months online, dating sucks because I didn't meet my partner. Like what if your goal is, I'm just wanting to get back out there again. I want to practice flirting on a practice, healthy boundaries. Like let's, let's, let's get three and date. Let's get three dates in three months. Like that to me is very doable. And it also shows us, I think, with online dating, what happens is we'll download an app. It's like through it a couple of days and be like online, dating sucks. And then you have the app on your phone. So you're still telling people that you're online dating, but you're not really online dating. And then three months later you delete the app and you say online dating doesn't work, but let's be real. How much time in those three months did you actually spend online? 20 minutes, maybe one hour. Like, again, let's be just as intentional about this area of our life. Give it the three month try.

Speaker 2: 49:53

I love that. So in these small moments, you actually are playing big, which is great. Well, Kat, my prayers have been answered with having you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for showing all of us that we have the power and authority over the way we choose to show up and dating. Where can people find you find out more about you?

Speaker 3: 50:18

Yeah, for sure. Um, well, my book is sexual from the city and you can learn more about that@sexlessinthecitybook.com or purchase it anywhere books are sold. And my social media and website is the refined woman and bi-weekly podcast is the refined collective. That's great. I love your podcast. I love

Speaker 1: 50:39

Of all your coaching. I think people should definitely hire you for coaching. I think you're going to find love real soon. And then we're going to have you back on Charlotte. Love.

Speaker 3: 50:47

Yes, I receive it. I receive

Speaker 1: 50:49

It. Thanks so much for your time today. Thank you

Speaker 5: 50:58

[inaudible].

Speaker 1: 50:58

And for now this week's Tinder tips in honor of today's guests, cat Harris. These tips come directly from her. Number one practice makes perfect try online dating for three months and make it a goal to go on at least two dates a month. And if you're up for a challenge, go on one date a week. Number two, shake things up and diversify. Try out a variety of dating apps. Kaz faves are coffee meets bagel, hinge, and Bumble. Number three is dating a priority to you. If not make one change a week to be more open to love. I hope you found some of my tips helpful this week. This is what shot at love is here for, to help you find love. Keep up the commitment to yourself and commit to helping someone else by sharing this podcast. Remember to stay safe and stay tuned for more episodes. I want to thank feed spot for naming Charlotte, love top 10 and dating podcasts. If you like this show, please subscribe and leave a review. I'm Carrie Brett, and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 5: 52:20

[inaudible].