Straight Shooting with Dan and Joseph

.22lr Rifle Barrel Tuning

February 20, 2020 Dan Killough & Joseph Stoecker Season 1 Episode 2
Straight Shooting with Dan and Joseph
.22lr Rifle Barrel Tuning
Straight Shooting with Dan and Joseph
.22lr Rifle Barrel Tuning
Feb 20, 2020 Season 1 Episode 2
Dan Killough & Joseph Stoecker

We review the last couple of weeks in .22lr benchrest competition and go over the USPSA Florida Open.  Dan and Joseph share how KSS sets tuners and what the tuners actually do.  Joseph finishes up with his current training drills he does for USPSA Competition.

Show Notes Transcript

We review the last couple of weeks in .22lr benchrest competition and go over the USPSA Florida Open.  Dan and Joseph share how KSS sets tuners and what the tuners actually do.  Joseph finishes up with his current training drills he does for USPSA Competition.

spk_0:   0:08
Hello and welcome to straight shooting with Dane and Joseph. Tune into this podcast to get the latest news on competitive shooting events, and they learn how to become a better shooter. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and be sure to recommend it to all of your shooting friends. Well, welcome to everyone. Want to remind youto be sure and go to Facebook and Instagram following like us For Ely and Kelo shooting sports, my personal instagram is shooting accuracy and Joseph's personal instagram is P s o tog soapy for Paul s for stacker

spk_1:   0:41
or like post script

spk_0:   0:43
post script. Okay, so what, You're Joseph Paul okay, are very good Previous today's show We've got some updates around the from around the country with from the various shooting competitions. Joseph has got a good story about going to Florida. Him and Steve went out and shot the Florida Open this past weekend, and they're getting ready to head out to Rosenberg, Texas, for the Henry's Cup. Justus. Soon as we get this podcast recorded, we got our straight shooting challenge. Joseph and I went out and shot are playing cards and I had a good time with that like that froze. But, hey, we got it done.

spk_1:   1:21
Yeah, that was in the cold and wind and Ah, slight Sprinkle.

spk_0:   1:27
Yet also, it was it was not the best of conditions, but, hey, we had a good time. We're gonna go over tuning the rim fire rifle and the various apparatuses on that, Our experiences with that and exactly how we do it. And we'll finish up with a bleeding off with Joseph and he's gonna go over the Florida Open and some training that he's doing. Originally, we thought we would have Ah, Blake. Lyle's with us today. He was not able to make it getting busy, getting ready to go to Henry's Cup. But we'll have him with us next time. That's gonna come over and go for some training tips from 415 training.

spk_1:   2:00
He didn't get Thio shoot very much last time we went. Rosenberg.

spk_0:   2:05
Yeah, you probably didn't wanna talk about that. All right? Moving right along. All rights of match scores from around the country and some matches coming up our 50 50 and piney hell in the indoor up in Luray, Virginia, had some 10 shot matches. They had a big weekend for them on the 15th and 16th where they had the 10 shot Virginia State and a 10 shot mid Atlantic Regional and then came back the next day with the 10 shot national tournament. And on that on the version without Virginia State. Ah, third place Martin Bank in second, Bruce Horn, Steen and the winner. Ah, Scotty White. So one that he had a big weekend. Then they finished up with the Mid Atlantic Regional. And, ah, Bruce Ornstein was third. Martin making was second and Scotty came in first. On that they came back the next day for the national tournament. Tony Harper Blast from the past came in 3rd 2nd place was a Bruce Ornstein, and then Scotty wanted it. So Scotty really had a good weekend. Congratulations to him. Ah, and just basically cleaned everybody's clock that weekend one. Everything. They had 50 50. The next big man So they've got coming up will be March 21st and 22nd. They're in Luray, Virginia. At the pineal indoor. They're gonna do the sport or nationals on the Saturday and then the indoor. Three good nationals on Sunday. A b R A. Auto Pinterest Association. Ah, coming up some matches. Ah, 22nd this weekend San Angelo gun clubs and Angelo Texas 10 a.m. Start Club match. Cody Harm Shooting center Down. Edinburg, Texas on the 22nd at 9:30 a.m. start, the 23rd Fresno Gun Club and Fresno, Ohio A 10 a.m. Start in the end, over in the march after that will be the belt and gun club belt in South Carolina, 11 a.m. start and March 8th, Fresno Gun Club and back out in Fresno. Oh, how now that's Ah hot Open Interest Association now into American Room Fire Association to to LR bench rest. Ah, I went out to hard prints, indoor range on the, uh he was eighth and ninth. I think it was and ah,

spk_1:   4:31
that's in Louisiana.

spk_0:   4:32
Yep. Howard print nearest like Lake Providence, Louisiana and far northeast Louisiana. I mean, it's about as close as you can get the Arkansas on the Mississippi River and still be in Louisiana. I had a good time. They're a good crowd. The state tournament was, um, Jason Thornhill in third degree Bob Smith in a second, and then Kenneth Richards won that So congratulations to Kenneth on that. The next day we had the club tournament. Jim Morehead came in third, Junior Groves in second and Larry McGill from Mississippi. One. That one. Larry had a really good weekend on that. And, um, I didn't have that great of a weekend to be quite honest with you. Ah, I was about middle of the pack. I mean, look at the results here. 20th and basically what happened to me was it was cold starting off in the mornings, and then it warmed up. And as it as a day warmed up, I got I don't know if I got better and my gun got better or what, but

spk_1:   5:34
that's how it wasn't Georgia. I think it chicken foot also. Yeah, because it would be, like, cold and raining in the morning, and then it would heat ab. But then they also had those big heaters and stuff going. Yep. Changes the whole

spk_0:   5:48
Yes. Yes. So I start off with a 2000 and then I had an 18 75 which I'm not really proud of that. Ah, then a 2175. And then finally, whether it warmed up or I finally got it figured out, and then I did a 23 123 123 100. I couldn't get over 2300 but I was at least, uh, consistent there. And that was that was there on Saturday, man, I believe on Sunday about the same basic thing happened to me. Um, no, I was pretty junky all day long looking back at the score. So indoor shooting for you, Sometimes it works. Sometimes it don't. I mean, honestly, when it is not working for me, uh, I have a hard time figuring it out. It just Ah, it is what it is. It it either shoots or don't and ah, that weekend, it didn't. So

spk_1:   6:35
you wanna since we're talking about tuners? If you're doing less than awesome, do you start twisting on that thing?

spk_0:   6:43
Well, I'll be honest. I did a little bit, but I don't It's kind of my rule of thumb. I don't twist it for Well, they didn't Honestly, it didn't have the whole

spk_1:   6:55
You shouldn't have to go very far, right on the end. If one's not working, you shouldn't have to ggo three full rotations to get it did to do something.

spk_0:   7:05
My personal theory is with my gun and not being able to do so well in the cold is the 16 Twist. I would like to try a 15 or 15 and 1/2 twists and see what it is because I know from experience with the 17 17 and 1/2 they shoot extremely well in a lot. Warmer temperatures. Um, and if you get in cold with the 17 or 17 a half of thing won't shoot the bucket. Ah, little keyhole. Real bad. That bullet just does not stabilize, but it's 90 degrees plus those legs will hammer hammer down. So it works, going the other direction. Maybe it works going, and you know it works in that direction when it's hard, or maybe when it's colder, winning go 15 I don't know.

spk_1:   7:47
And that's just the twist rate. You think yes, the strength or

spk_0:   7:51
how things just twist right. But there's something that obviously got it figured out because, um, they had some really big score. I mean, Larry McGill, he egged 23 50 so I mean, that was his average over the six targets we had. I think it was 3 25 hundred's. Larry had a 25 100 Jim Morehead had a 25 100. And, uh, that was on Sunday. China member who had there was, um 1 25 100 on Saturday is well and looking through here trying. Remember who was Kenneth Richards was 2320 50 22 50 2324 50 24 50. I mean, that's just smoking. He had 23. 50 AG, too. So you had AG top six ag o egg 2300 or higher. And, um uh, Jerry Bob Smith. That's who had 2500 year Bob ah from losing enter there and the other one. So that was the third, the 3rd 1 And anyway, same, uh, same weekend. They also had a big mansion North Carolina with the, um, North Carolina State A and pulling it up here to give either results. Only a Tom Wilkinson. Don Kowalski was third checking rail, and second, Tom Wilkinson was the winner of that at the Rocky River barn. An album, Aro North Carolina. And that was on the eighth that he did that. All right, looking ahead here, we've got coming up frog level in Ah, Arkansas on the 22nd and it's gonna have the Arkansas State tournament also in on the 22nd in Virginia. Tiny hell on Blue Ray is gonna have the air a state tournament. And then on Sunday, um, it Lu Ray that have a club tournament. So double tournament weekend, they're coming up for they already there upon the hill in Luray, Virginia.

spk_1:   9:57
So for air A U, you don't have to be from that state to compete or when. Not this state tournament, right?

spk_0:   10:05
No, no. The way it works, every club can have two tournaments a year and then, um, tournaments are important because you get double points in the and that helps you win the club. Turning our club championship for the year, the state championship for the year and as well as the national championships. So all the guys chasing those hit the tournament's state tournament just gives another tournament in each state and they'll do special trophies and what? Not for it. But now it doesn't matter where you're from. You can win. You can win any of them. All right. Would you have own results for U. S P s A

spk_1:   10:41
in Florida were at the Florida Open this past week. It's ah thing. It's a level to match. It's a pretty big match. That place is it seems like he was specifically made for us. B s a match is because the way that it set up is super easy. You don't have to walk very far, and the bays are literally like it's an alley, basically, and you'll have, like, stage one stage do stage. So you stay for so you just go straight from one of the next. There's not along terrible walking between each one. They go pretty quick. Um, the top five overall. Ah, first place was less eager, Murdoch. Second place was John Vlogger. Third was Tony Baker. Fourth place was Anthony Bruno, and fifth place was Tom Castro. I believe they were all shooting open s so they're gonna be major class. Uh, the class winners for a class. It was Fernando Ferrera. B class Was bree know Lima C class was Eric Leopold. D was Danny Zlotnik masterclass. Anthony Bruno won. That and grand master class was Ledger Murdoch, who again won the overall. Um, I was talking to Anthony because he usually wins something. He he watched my last stage, which pretty much butchered. And, ah, I was just asking him how he did. And he's like, Well, you know, I think I did pretty good. Um, I don't know how important winning the overall is compared to just you class, because I think all the class winners like one pistols. You take that one. If you want the class. I don't know what you get for winning overall.

spk_0:   12:31
Whether they did a prize table where you come in by order of the way you finished for each class.

spk_1:   12:35
I don't know. He didn't stick around

spk_0:   12:38
me. And you could have got something.

spk_1:   12:39
No, I wasn't gonna win anything.

spk_0:   12:42
Wait, Did it? Every two, right? So the yes, a window. You might as you get first election.

spk_1:   12:47
Right. But I think you also get another one for your overall.

spk_0:   12:53
Okay, I'm I would imagine that varies from match to match, depending on how the matter director has it set up,

spk_1:   12:58
right? Yeah, I was metal the pact. You pretty close to what you did in Louisiana? I think there's 260 six or 67 people total and I was like 1 78 Okay, run somewhere in the middle,

spk_0:   13:14
like your fifth match.

spk_1:   13:17
Ah u s P s say it will be my 67 I think Fifth,

spk_0:   13:27
fifth plus the Not that which doesn't count the big ad. I'd handgun

spk_1:   13:31
T i P s c matches don't count. Um, well, they count just not towards like my because I'm still not classified. Um, so hopefully I don't even know if this one had a class fire in it or what stage it was if it was in it. Okay, this was ah, super hard match. I was very frustrated.

spk_0:   13:51
All right, we'll go into that a little bit more when we get to bleeding off with Joseph in our last segment of the day. So coming up, we've got the Henry's Cup down in Rosenberg, Texas, starting this. Well, I guess they start tomorrow. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Joseph and Steve are about to head down there as soon as we get finished with this. So be sure to go down there and go by the Ely tent and talk to Joseph in. Steve, if you're in the area. All right. Moving on are straight shooting challenge. Remember to send us your videos of do you do in these various things? We had a bunch of them that people. Ah, messaged. But put it on the Kelo shooting sports Facebook page. If you'll go the Kelo shooting sports Facebook page and ah, put that on there of you doing it. Or a challenge that you have for us. We had a bunch of people that message me and texted me and did a lot

spk_1:   14:46
of money out of bodies were just messaging me that, like, Dude, you need to do this. Something crazy hard. The, uh What's that guy that used to be on? Ah,

spk_0:   14:57
do all the shooting drinks? Yeah. Yeah, I know you're talking about

spk_1:   15:00
you mostly used a revolver. I can't think of his name, but he used to shoot, like pennies. Like Robert and even washers like out of the year with, like, a 38 revolver. You could do that.

spk_0:   15:11
No. Okay. All right. So someone we got looking forward to that I thought were some good ideas, was, ah, to shoot with a 22 do a lifesaver and shoot the hole in the middle without breaking the lifesaver or washer. Yeah, you could do. We could washer

spk_1:   15:25
knocking it over.

spk_0:   15:26
Um, lots of guys like to shoot flies, so they'll put different. I figured just some good old catfish stink bait on the thing and bring the fries flies on there and shoot them up. But today, what we did for our challenge was we wanted to split, cut a playing card in half with a 22 50 yards. So anyway, we got out there this morning and did it. It was cold. It was windy. It was raining a little bit. And we put him up there. If you can tune into our YouTube channel and watch the video of this, we've got these where you can see him. I've got my jacket clubs and we had the Joker for for Mr Joseph. And, um so basically, I shot it Will have the video on our YouTube Channel two. So tune in there and you can see it. Joseph's getting that together, going to spice it up. We got a video on a shooting in a video on the playing cards as well. Basically, ah, hit mine on the first shot. And, uh, but it didn't cut it nicked. I'm Nick. Did second shot, um, hit it again, but didn't cut it all the way through. Third shot. I missed four shot. I finally split it in half, so took me four shots. So then we put up Josephs and ah, Joseph shot. And 1st 1 you

spk_1:   16:45
smoked it, smoked it. This was my first shot. The

spk_0:   16:49
CIA on the

spk_1:   16:50
line. And it went, I don't know, 3/4 of the way. Yeah,

spk_0:   16:55
2/3 3 quarters of the way it cut it and then left the rest of it attached. But it blew it off the

spk_1:   16:59
stand and knocked it off. So which, if it was a little steady here, I wonder if it would have cut it.

spk_0:   17:06
Probably not

spk_1:   17:06
Probably. I was. I wasn't Ah, curiously, we could do it. I was pretty sure we could do it. I just wanted to see how that bullet once it contacted, because I would think that it would flatten. Maybe not like from the playing card. But I figured that it would flatten

spk_0:   17:28
hardwood band instead of cut.

spk_1:   17:30
Yeah, I kind of smush like, Yeah, come squash it. Which I guess it I sort of did that maybe what? Actually cut it. You can see on this one. It's kind of

spk_0:   17:40
Yeah, it cuts. So then he shot it again. And, uh, anyway, long story short. He did it in four shots as well. Uh,

spk_1:   17:47
both took four shots.

spk_0:   17:48
Both ever stick four shots we tied. It was cold. We did not do a tiebreaker. So right now we stand tied and you can actually see on Yearsworth next time. So first time you hit it is cut. And then the time that you actually cut it into is a completely different shot. As to where at least mine look, at least it appears that I hit it in the same shit. But one thing that I noticed about this all right, the cards actually wasn't straight vertical.

spk_1:   18:14
It was like it

spk_0:   18:15
was at an angle. But the reason it was because what we used to hold it is one of the little things that kids used to hold playing cards.

spk_1:   18:23
I was wondering, with that way

spk_0:   18:24
that's what those from when my kids used to play cards with us when they were really long, young, and they can't hold them in their hands. So they put him in there. So they has it a slight angle. But

spk_1:   18:34
there's also a white backer. And, like all I saw was white with, like, a little, like pencil black line. And that's what I was aiming for but wasn't super easy to see

spk_0:   18:47
putting the way we did it. But you're with this one. You mainly just had to get your left and white right down because of the windage. And we had a We did have started a left a right when it was a

spk_1:   18:59
strong cross wind, but it was

spk_0:   19:02
pretty consistent, insistent, blowing straight out of north cold here in West Texas. But I had a good time with that. All right, So what do you want to do for the next one? Another one I thought about to Somebody had mentioned if we do with our 38 super calm pistols, um, she threw the sheet. The hole in a doughnut, It 20 yards. I z Okay, let's back it up. Okay. How far can we go back and still sheet the whole inn and donut? Well, I had actually hitting the don't

spk_1:   19:32
go through it and not contact the outer part.

spk_0:   19:38
All right. Sending your suggestions. What can we do with a 38 super comp shooting challenge to see who is the most accurate

spk_1:   19:45
30 year? That's a big hole. The big bullet. Yeah, but it's, uh

spk_0:   19:52
okay. Maybe we'll find out. Send us your suggestions on what we can do for that and we'll see who can who can shoot that better. And, ah, have a good time with that. We'll have that on our next episode. All right. Moving along to precision shots brought to you by kill Oh, shooting sports your one stop shop for competition shooting needs. And one thing that we get millions and millions and millions of questions on is how to tune a 22 long rifle in or in a rough

spk_1:   20:22
or what the benefits you

spk_0:   20:23
doesn't work. How do you do it? How do you go about doing it? We've been doing this well. I've been doing it ever since we got started in 22 rim fire. Originally, we had built a tunnel here at our place. I say a tunnel, an indoor shooting range, and basically what we built was is 50 meters long, and it was an eight foot wide by an eight foot tall hallway, and it was on the edge of, Ah, Big room and we had a couple of benches in there and we would shoot down just into a couple steel traps at the back end. Later on, Ely came in. We and we struck a deal and made that the yearly customer range, and they came in and put the tubes in and put all their mounts and everything in there. But we still were able to go in there and tune raffles for folks. It's a lot easier to tune in there because one you don't have any. You take out all external factors. There's no you don't have to worry about temperature because we got climate controlled. You don't have to worry about wind. You don't have to worry about your point aim because we've got it in the down in the fixture and we're gonna have exactly the same point of ain't you don't have to worry about. So that takes out the scope or any optical problems or anything. All we're doing is shooting and changing. Ah, the tuner setting is until we found that and I got so I got the look, and I was like, how many guns were retained? Looking back, I can say fleas very easily say that we've turned over 300 rifles. Very well. Could be quite a few more Because we did it for several years, Um, and didn't really have much tracking on it. Um, some of the things that I have tried, um, that I no longer do, Um a lot of people will take in tune with their best lot of ammo, and they'll turn into that particular lot and get it shooting that day. Yes, as

spk_1:   22:27
soon as you change that.

spk_0:   22:28
Well, in that and I honestly, that's first thing I ever did. You, um I started tuning. I had my ammo. I would twist that tuna and try to get it shooting. And what I found was I could get it shooting good that day. Sometimes it took longer than others. So, um, but the problem was, and I come back the next day most the time that it didn't work anymore. It was not shooting as well as it did the previous day, and I had to do it all over again. And ah, of course, if you're coming in at a match. You just ain't got time to do that. You need tohave it set and be able to go on. Do it. So then we started doing ringing, the bells ringing, not ringing the bell like ringing a bell. We would ring the barrel and we would take a stethoscope, put it on the forward put would take the rifle, put it in our one piece rest, take a stethoscope, put it on the form of the stock, and then tap the barrel starting at the muzzle, coming up the like, an inch increments coming up the barrel and tap it with our finger. We tried tapping with all kinds of things. We did it with a stick and did it with my finger. Did it with a, uh um 01 of those guns. Smith top hammers that has the plastic head, um, doing ding ding ding. Best thing I have found that. Anyway, it seemed to work. Just do it with my finger, and I would tap that. And what we're looking for is the dead spot. And you will you confined it to where you gets in there. You know, ring, ring, ring, ring. and then you'll get to a spot that's just kind of but will. If you put the tuner on the end of the barrel and move that weight in and out, you can move that dead spot up and down the barrel. And so we would tune. We would turn the wait until we would get that dead spot as close to the muzzle is possible. Um,

spk_1:   24:15
so that the harmonics are, I guess, more consistent until you get to the

spk_0:   24:20
brat. So that so that kind of that. Anyway, that was the theory. And that was how we did. We got even got it to where I bought Elektronik stethoscope, that you plugged into your laptop so that we could see the sound way on the, uh on the laptop so that you could see the vibration on there. And you could tell when it would hit the dead spot a building, that little bar, that little graph would go down the next to nothing. All right, that same thing hit or miss, um, didn't. Ultimately, after we did that and tried it for a while, I didn't I didn't really think that it ended at, uh, working all that way. Well, so what we wound up doing is I got the minute that they called the Hope will method. And that was because it was developed by a Mr Hopewell and, uh, and kind of back up a little bit. Here. What we're talking about doing is tuning a 22 rifle, and we're talking about tuning it with weight, because one thing I want to express, there's a lot of people out that do the purty prescription. Um, which is based on sound and is a completely different method. And a lot of people do that, and it had really good luck with it. We play with it and do it some. I'm still for me personally. The jury is still out on that own exactly how how that works. I've seen people do it and be very successful with it. Um,

spk_1:   25:48
I think, if anything, um, I think it does work. But even if you like, if you're trying to make the argument that it doesn't work, it would still take a lot of the like guessing or shooting out of it because it'll get it's not dead on. It will be pretty close, which just based on the formula, we'll eliminate a lot of having to shoot it, Maura, and using more ammo and more time stuff like that. So even if it's not dead on, I think it can help prevent you from spending a lot of time and money on M O and actually shooting,

spk_0:   26:35

spk_1:   26:35
But you won't know if it works anyway until you shoot it. Yeah, so could very easily just two in the whole thing. You know, you're shooting it.

spk_0:   26:47
So basically the give you background pretty prescription was developed by Anthony Party. And, um, like, say, it has to do with sound waves. And so they're more concerned about the length of the two beyond the muzzle and what the inside diameter of that is and how that affects the sound wave that is created by firing of the shot. And hopefully one of these days, we might be able to get Tony own here to go over that, Um, but that's they've got a formula that they do based on the length of the barrel, and they get very, very immersion down to the thousands of an inch on the length of the barrel. Then they can come up with what the length of the tube needs to be on the end. So basically the link of the barrel in the inside the mention of that tube and they'll give you a link, get real close, and then you can kind of move that in and out to them. Wait, doesn't matter. So, ah, lot of what I've been playing with now is trying to do both trying to do so if you got a tube sticking out so that you get the pretty prescription. Ah, if you do this to her here, I'm holding. Ah, he's LPD tuner in my hand. You can see on the YouTube channel. It's got a blue to coming out of it. So if you get that blue tube to the right length, then you can take this weight. It's also got the way that she turned. You can turn that wait and do whatever you want to and move it. And that's not according to the m gonna affect the pretty prescription. So

spk_1:   28:14
the way

spk_0:   28:15
they be moving in and out and it's not gonna affect the prescription, and you can do more like what we do. Would we do just wait. Um, and that's on there. And then I've got a herald style tuna here. So, anyway, we'll discuss the party prescription. Ah, at a future date right now, we're gonna talk about doing IRS when we do it with weight. Basically, the top tuners you've got out there kind of a tried and true. The one that's been around for years is the Harrell's precision. They manufacture one. Um it comes from the factory with a 10.750 internal diameter. You can bore that out for your barrel up to write an inch. I think we actually get an inch in 16 thousands is about as much as you can get. After that, you start running into the threads on the screws that clamp down. So what you do is you measure the barrel. Ah, your barrel right at the muzzle and one inch back. We bore that out. It slips on and will bottom out. We talked in those screws and clamp it down. 20 inch pounds is plenty. It's pretty small screws. Allen heads there, so you don't want to strip those out. But 20 inch pounds, typically, we're gonna put it on there and leave it. Don't usually bring it on and off. We'll have a tuner cleaner that we can run a shotgun patch in there to get the powder out. And you do want to do that pretty regular because we're doing this based on weight. So if you don't clean that, that unburned powder is gonna build up in there and it changes the weight of it, so it's gonna it's gonna change the tune. Um, we've got the diesel P b t tuner, and his is a little bit different. I mean, they're very, very similar and that they both have a ah, the main barrel there. You can turn and move that weight in and out. Um, the main difference with what Mike Easels doing is he's got tungsten powder in there, which tungsten is powder has great dampening qualities, and ah, and he believes that you need to try to dampen that vibration. Um, so anyway, it works fine. It's just a little bit more expensive than the harrow, Um, and it up. But it also does come with the blue tube with Harold. Precision does not come with the boob tube,

spk_1:   30:32
but went on it

spk_0:   30:33
Now you can put one on it, but you gotta buy that extra. These air also fretted so you can add more weights to these. And so basically, the what we do and how we did and what we've found works The best for us is going and using the Hopewell method to find the best setting. Ah, and to get a really good explanation on exactly what the tuner is even doing, um, go to a website called varmint al dot net. It's warm it with a V v Victor a r m i n t a l dot net. If you go to the barman Al Web site over on the left column, he's got a whole list of a bunch of different topics. And down there he'll have ah, one that's Ah to to LR rifle in tuner. And he uses some graphics and they're super slow mo and kind of going over the top to explain to you what exactly is happening. He uses finite, elemental analysis, um, kind of proving the thing. But basically what he concludes is the inherent problem with 22 ammo. Is they inconsistent? Seon velocities from shot to shot. You cannot diala me into where you have a really consistent shot to shot velocity like you can't a center fire and we're stuck with what we got. I mean, even a really good lot of ammo over a 25 shot target. You're gonna have a 20 feet per second extreme spread in the velocities. So what does that mean? That means a faster shot, as we all know, is gonna hit higher on target and slower shot is going to hit lower on the target. So

spk_1:   32:15
and there's no way to know. Nooch. I mean,

spk_0:   32:19
no, no way to know.

spk_1:   32:20
Can't determine

spk_0:   32:21
No, not until it hits the paper. And then it's too late. So what we want to try to do so that creates vertical stringing. We want to minimize that where they're not, because in an ideal solution, that's gonna be a perfect vertical line and just right there, right straight up and down. We want to try to minimize that and get it down to where it's more of Ah, round instead of stacked on top of one another. So you have toe hang, wait beyond the muzzle, slide the tuner on their clamp down. It's got a barrel on the tuner that you can turn. The Herald Precision has markings on the base of the tuner that actually clamps on the barrel s so you could know how many revolutions you've turned in and out. And then it also has numbers going around the barrel of it 0 to 24. So essentially, you have 25 marks all the way around, and then it's got a little ball and spring on the inside that goes into these Indians so that it clicks when you turn it. And I'm kind of here that there as we turn that around and, um, pretty close, each click is moving into thousands. So if you turn it turning it out, you're moving about 1000 set a time, and you so it has on the scale 025 so basically, you can turn it 500 clicks. So there's 500 possibilities of where you're going to set this thing. So most of the time we looked at that and go man 500. I really gotta shoot groups at all 500 spot. We'll know. That's that's where the hope will method comes in. So what we're doing when we're moving that way in and out. We're trying to control that barrel vibration in the er the vertical barrel vibration. Because what we want, we want it to be vibrating so that when the bullet exits the muzzle, the barrel is on an upswing. And if the barrel is moving up, then that means a slower bullet is gonna get their lighter and it's gonna be pointed higher, and a faster bullet is gonna get to the muzzle quicker and be pointed lower. Now, the faster bullet is also gonna not drop is much. But both all of that counter acts one another toy, where on the paper at a said distance, 50 yards. In our case that you reduce that vertical stream. So let me say that again. You want the barrel on an upswing if the barrel is moving up and a faster bullet gets there quicker is pointed lower and a slower bullet gets there later and is pointed higher. And that reduces the vote vertical stringing. Um, and we do everything at 50 yards. So theoretically, the tuner setting should be different. If you're at 100 yards, I haven't done much 100 yard. I can't I can't tell you that. But I mean, that would that would be logical for me. Ah, and if you go to farm, it al dot in that that's his conclusion on there. He could go through all the find out elemental analysis. He can show you everything. He's got a graph tested. Does a really good job of kind of scientifically going about showing how how that works. So how do you find that setting? 0 to 4. You got 500 spots it could possibly be. Actually. Could be more net. That's fine, because this thing weighs eight ounces. You got 500. Then you put more weight on it, and every time you put more weight on, then you got 500 spots. So what do we do? We're trying to get this thing to help us with the variations in velocity. So we want to do groups, and in those groups we need a big spread in velocity. So in order to achieve that, we do not shoot one lot of ammo. Well, shoot five different lots of m o. So we like to do 10 shot groups the Maur shots and the group, the better reliability it is. Ah, three shot group. You just did not get his biggest spread and velocity is unique. So we'll do a 10 shot group with five lots of ammo. So that'll be two shots from each of those five lots.

spk_1:   36:30
And they're purposely selected that ranging velocities because we know the velocities of, um, or that we know the average velocities of the lots that were shooting. And so it's not like we're picking five that air between 10 16 10 65. It's like I've got some that air. Yeah. 10 50 10 62 10 78. I mean, it's a pretty high range.

spk_0:   37:01
Yeah, Big Rains and Member Joseph runs are really customer range. And so Joseph does this for us now, and, uh, I've trained him with this and he's done quite a few on his now and then. We worked together on that. He does the shooting and we'd look at him and go over the stuff, and he's getting to be have a lot of experience doing this as well. So what we'll do is we'll turn that tuner all the way down to zero. Shoot a now we've got the nice thing of doing to an electronic target. So we're we're able to shoot 10 shots at the zero setting two from each at zero. Then we do one full revolution out. So basically that brings it out 25 klicks to the number 25. We'll do another 10 shot group, two shots from five different lots, and we do that one full revolution at a time, from zero all the way to 500.

spk_1:   37:51
And it's it's 25 because that's how it's set up on the dial. Yeah, it doesn't go from 0 to 500. It goes from 0 to 25 to 24 because zero would again be up 20. It's either gonna be zero or 25 so it's in 25 count increments.

spk_0:   38:11
Correct. And then there's a scale on the base piece that's on the barrel to let you know how you're you're one revolution out your two revolutions out your three revolutions out just much like a micrometer. Ah would do for you now. All right, so we've done all that. So then we look at the group size and what we use is the average to center, and we'll go into that. That's another good episode. Topic to go over how to properly measure group sizes. And what's the best way to do? Some do, um, outside the outside or some new center to center, which those two are basically the same thing. Ah, we do the average to center, the average distance from the bullet placement to this center of the group. And and what, that? Anyway, that's what we use. And the reason we do that is that gives you the average distance, and one bad shot doesn't kill you. Ah, on a center to center, you can put nine of them in the same hole and put one out one inch away and you got a one inch group on an average to center. You put nine and one hole and put one out an inch. Then it's just gonna averages all 10 of those differences, and that 10th 1 doesn't kill the group size near Ah, here is bad. Once we've done 10 shot groups 0 to 500. We got a little excel, Doc. Joseph will top those in, um the, uh, that average of center measurement and well, then we do a color coding on it. So we're basically it's well, it doesn't sort of me sort of my color.

spk_1:   39:51
Yeah. Tells you which ones are the smallest group sides.

spk_0:   39:54
So it what it does is the lowest number is green. The highest number is red. And you have shades of green to yellow to red. Although in between. And it kind of looks pretty cool, actually. Tow where, um and well, I'll tell you what will we do? A short India short video and put it on the YouTube channel or out of one of those documents. Kenshin. Okay. All right. So going into the YouTube channel and you'll see what that document looks like. But it it really shows you how the shots will come in and then come out and then come in and then come out as it moves through there. So

spk_1:   40:27
one click, I mean from, like, you didn't have it said at 100 and that'll be the smallest group, and 101 could be the biggest group. Yeah, I mean,

spk_0:   40:40
it can make a difference now. Um, all right. So after we do 10 and we find there what we've ah what we go through and look at the best ones. And we'll pick out the best, UM, 3 to 5 groups, just depending on how close they are to one another. Ever. Guns a little bit different, and we will go back on those and do 15 Maur shots in the The good Thing about way we're able do with electronic targets. Now we can go back. And because we have exactly the same point of aim, we can put those 15 shots exactly on the top of the previous 10 shots. And then that gives us 25 shot group and 25 is a good number that we've settled on. That gives you good results in one these days, we'll have an engineer. Later, Larry landed Casper on toe. Explain on how many shots you need and what not but 20 fives, one that we've kind of settled on with some of our engineers and number crunchers. That is enough to give us repeat ability and that we could be fully rely on the data that we're getting. If you have too few shots, it's just not enough data to give you a good answer. Um, now you can go as many as you want. But then again, I mean, you're burning out ammo, you're burning out time. And so 25 is the number we have settled on. Um, so we'll go back and shoot the best 3 to 5 and make them 25 shot groups. Then we'll look and narrow it down to probably two or three of the ones. That because invariably what happens is a couple of those that were 10 by the time you do 25 1 or two of them just blow themselves out of it. And you would think 10 shots would be enough. But it's not. You do 25 all of a sudden it just starts spitting everywhere and, um, and doesn't work. So let's say, for example, 200 looks really good. So then what we'll do is we'll dio 1 85 1 91 95 205 to 10 and 2 15 and we'll do a 10 shot group in each one of them. And same thing. Which ones look good? Any? I'm looking better in 200. If they do, then you go and you had 15 more shots and you make them a 25 shot group? Um, so then let's say 1 90 ended up being better and look better than 200. Yeah. So then we do on the other side of it, because we've done 1 85 195 So then we'll do 1 81 87 1 88 1 89 or 91 19 to 1 93 in. Same thing on those 10 shots look good that make him 25.

spk_1:   43:15
You just chase it around until it stops improving. Yep. Basically.

spk_0:   43:21
And a lot of times, what it seems like on the really good shooting barrels is that we'll find it. And like like these numbers were using Example of 1 90 is good. 1 91 was even better. 1 92 was good. 1 93 It fell off a cliff, but there was, like, two or three right there, real close together. And we kind of call that a window we're looking for a wide a window is possible. Um, about the widest we've ever see. Maybe he was four most of time. Were plenty happy. If we get free there, side by side that do good. 25 shot groups. So it it anyway, that's what we look for in it and had the best results with. And then once we find that we leave it, um, well, you can it may even lock it down. Ah, mine on my personal gun. I've got two guns, one lakh, 18 some people don't like the lock on. They think it needs to move around a little bit. I haven't found that it makes any difference, but point is, we don't move it. Point is, we check it, make sure it stays the same lot of times pulling them things in and out the case. You're gonna rub that on the foam and it turns it and just got to be careful with that. And I'm a proponent of leaving it because we have adjusted for the change in velocities and we have found what is the best group with wider spread and velocity as possible. So everybody says, Well, what if we go sheet in Arizona and then we go shoot and lose in New Orleans and down in South Louisiana? Totally different conditions. You know, we may be up in the mountains in northern Arizona or to dry in the high elevation. And then we go down to sea level in the high humidity. Well, in my mind, what does all that change? What does temperature change if we're shooting in 30 degrees? Like I was talking about shooting indoors versus shooting nine degrees outdoor to me, that affects the velocity speed, the temperature effects, the velocity of the bullet. Well, we've already compensated for the widest range of velocities by setting the tuna properly. What is a humidity? Change it change. The velocity of the bullet was a density altitude change. It changes the velocity of the bullet. All of those things affect the velocity of the bullet. And we have the tuner set to compensate that. So that's why we set it in and leave it now again, If you're having a horrible day and you can't figure nothing out and nothing's going right, you might turn it a clicker to, I mean as a last ditch effort. But, um, I've never found that that really helps for me. Um, and I will say, if you look if you look up and down the line and the guys who were shooting really well. They're not messing with it, and in one reason they're not messing with it cause it's working. But I tell you that it's been my experience with some of the top shooters in the country. They rarely you rarely see them turn the tuner Now. There's one huge exception to that, though. In this job ish job official from Jeff City, Missouri. Ah has more air, a Hall of Fame points, then I don't know if anybody will ever catch him. Joe's shot for years. He's won everything. There is the wind national champion multiple times, and he turns that Turner more than anybody I've ever seen. And, um, in some days he will wear you out on it. So I don't know. Joe's got some kind of secret that he can figure it out. I have never been able to do, and I could largely say he's about the only one I've seen that consistently do that and figure it out

spk_1:   47:06
and be successful

spk_0:   47:06
and be successful with it. The vast majority of people are not up there doing it. So anyway, that's kind of my our thoughts and our experience with with tuner and going on with it, and hopefully you've learned a little bit and that'll help

spk_1:   47:22
and one thing, and this is just because it's something. When people come in and tune with us the way that they make these tuners, there's one, and I wouldn't even call it an issue. There's just something you have to be aware of, and that's that they don't all start exactly zero right because of the way that machine them. So what I tell people when they come in is where I my starting point, is not as far as it will go until it stops, because that number will usually be different from one tuner to the next. And so sometimes it'll start 14 sometimes will start at 25. Sometimes it does started zero. So to eliminate that I started the 1st 0 and that's just what I tell everybody, because that keeps me from having to go back and look like if somebody says if they lose their their place because sometimes because of where you have to start, you're higher up like so you're actually a 3 50 but it looks like it's a 3 75 or closer than that and so to compensate for that, I just tell people that we started zero because that keeps me from having to go back and not only see where I said it, but see where I started from also, so that away from like oh yeah, that yours was set at 3 50 But if they just look at the lines, that may not be indicative of where 3 50 is right. And so at that point you could go all the way back to zero and just countered rotations until you get 3 50 But they always started zero.

spk_0:   49:09
So what he's saying is that if you turn the tuner all the way in until it bottoms out and it's gonna can't go any further in, if you look at the skill that's on the bass, the bass part that's on the barrel, it may be before the zero or it may have gone past it. And so what he's saying is, if we turn in like this, when I turned it all the way in and it stopped and 18 is straight up, so then we would turn it to zero.

spk_1:   49:33
Whatever. The 1st 0

spk_0:   49:35
first time he hit zero, and that's zero. So then, later on, if you want to turn it back to 3 50 if you want to play with it and then you want to turn it back to 200 you'll know your starting point Exactly what zero is and 200 is gonna be eight full revolutions out. All right. Very good. I hope you like that episode and be sure and shoot us. Any comments you got on tuning? Maybe some methods you have tried that weren't good for you. Always looking to learn as we move through this. All right. Moving on to bleeding off with Joseph. Ah. All right. You just got back. We were originally gonna do some training tips with Blake. Excuse me, Blake. Lyle's today from 415 training. Ah, he was not able to get in here today. We're gonna get him on the next episode. And so, uh, Joseph's going to kind of go over a little bit of what Florida Open look like. And some training that he's doing now.

spk_1:   50:26
It was difficult, um, for sure, the most difficult match I've shot and that it's just because of the way that the stage is made. You think, Um, because there were there wouldn't necessarily just more targets or more movements. It was. And most of the stages at big matches air like this. There's not just one straight way to shoot it. So when you're planning it the entire time that you're doing your walk through, you're like, OK, I think I got it. Well, then you might see and I try not to pay attention to what other people are doing unless I've got, like, a GM in my group or whatever, and then I kind of look at what he's doing. But there may be you think you've got it down and then you walk to it again and you see a target that you missed or something like that in a weird spot, or it's hidden behind something, and you can only see it from a certain way. That's how every single stage this match was. And there was also a lot of moving targets. And that added another aspect, not just because it's a target that's moving, but because it was not a Level one match. Because in Level one I didn't realize this until

spk_0:   51:49
yeah, this was learning

spk_1:   51:50
experience. So they told me here was certain level one match, which is most of what I've shot with U. S. P. S A. You can designate if you can engage a target before or after it's been activated. If it's a moving target so you can actually stage.

spk_0:   52:13
So what he's talking about for our non U. S. P. S a shooter's. A lot of times they'll have a paper silhouette target that's on a swinger. Toward that thing swings back and forth and you'll have to shoot a still popper or still Plato. Act first that activates that thing to start swinging now. Sometimes they'll stick them behind barrels where you cannot even see it before you hit the Activate the steel popper. But apparently here they had some that you could see him

spk_1:   52:41
when you could see him and

spk_0:   52:43
so you can shoot that. What he's saying is you can shoot that swing and target before you actually make it start swinging,

spk_1:   52:51
and it's no, there's no penalty for it. I mean, it's a lot easier and that happy, and that's because a guess Level two and three that rule that rule goes away for the match director.

spk_0:   53:05
The director has to designate yes or no. And if they don't say anything about it, then you do it however you want.

spk_1:   53:10
No, you can't do that in these higher matches that the rule of So

spk_0:   53:16
if they don't want you, then they need to hide it. Correct? Where make you

spk_1:   53:20
activate toe. Where's Naz? Visible either at rest or before it's activated. Um, get some of them weren't visible arrest. So, you know, if he activated it, If you miss the window that it's visible, it's gone forever. Like you can't see it anymore after it stops. Yeah, um, so on this one, I figured that out and actually did that on one of the stages. It was in, like a little shoot house. Um, and there was a swinger, but you could It was completely visible at rest, but it was just laying sideways and so you could look through this little window. You see it easily? Well, the activator for it was way on the end of the the stage, and that was one of the first targets that you saw. So if you just told yourself you're like, OK, I'm not gonna shoot that at the beginning, so I ran to the whole thing. And then the activator was actually the last target that I ended up shooting for that whole stage. So it looks kind of dumb, But I mean, it works. And so for works, why not do it? Other people may. I mean, there's a lot of guys that thought the same thing that I was like, You have to act like you can't do that, you know? What are you doing? And, you know, they just understood the rules better than I did. And ah. So once I was told that then I kind of took advantage of it. But it was just really difficult match for me personally. Um, with the exception of, like, two stages, they were all 29 2 32 rounds Stroh. But it doesn't matter. You start related.

spk_0:   54:59
Well, yeah, you gotta reload once, but still you did really wants. But

spk_1:   55:03
that on top I mean, it's it comes down to fundamentals, and ah, you say these long stages in that have a lot of targets to look at. And even if you're shooting open, you have 27 rounds. You'll forget to reload because I can't get flustered. And I would either miss or I would take, like, half step too far. And I would lose my window like I had staged it. To where? You know, I Come on this way. Take three steps. Targets open here, take one small step and I can see it over here. Well, little bit of a little half step, and now it's gone. And so when that happens, my reload goes out the window. Like I don't remember when I was going to reload that I even needed to and so I would get at the end of the stages. And you're in a better man. Quick. Well, there's two targets left in the whole thing, Like you just leave him to you. Reload. Try just faster you can and try to get him. I mean it. Just a lot of that was happening to me the entire time. And ah,

spk_0:   56:12
and here's something. And I'm sure all of you experienced USPs a shooter's know this, but what I learned the hard way and market told me this and I forgot to do it is if you're if you know, you're going to do a reload. Um, don't have a completely full mag, because I did that last year when we were Rosenberg and I slammed up a completely full mag and went to shoot in that darn thing. It didn't it had too much resistance on it, so it didn't catch. And so when I let go into the mag just fell straight back out the bottom. I was like, That was something I had loaded again. And

spk_1:   56:46
that's why So, um, when I make ready, I'll have my back mag, and that's the one that all burning up with. Yeah, well, then I'll move that to my next reload spot on my belt, and so that one's not fully loaded. Even if there's yeah, If my gun's not empty, it'll still go load in there pretty easily. Um, better just came down to fundamentals and, ah, like on, you know, smaller matches. It's easier to kind of get caught up in trying to go really fast and, ah, you know, trying to burn them down. But whenever you add these long stages with a lot of things that you have to thank on, that's the first thing that goes out the window for me is fundamentals, you know, because if you have a 20 round stage, you don't have to reload, so you don't have to think about it. Reload. So the fundamentals on to me get exposed more when you're on these difficult matches. And so that's something of that I've been working on, and I was working on it already, but you just slap me in the face How terrible I was it basic things, shooting this match. So that's what I'm doing. Just a lot of draw drills just from the about getting it up as smooth. It's possible, I mean, as fast as I can. But acquiring my side picture does. You know your movements easy after you've drawn Um, so that's what I've been working on a lot, getting my side picture as fast as possible without having a fish around for it. And something that Blake showed me, which is called it a 20 Alfa drill. And it's basically it's like it's four distances and you shoot five rounds at each one. So the 1st 1 is that, like five yards, 10 yards, 15 and then like 20 or 25 what that helps you with is for one your cadence and so the closest one, it should be like deep drop Remember, back like, pretty fast, Like you can hose it and still get good hits. And the whole point of this is to do is faster You can at each distance and still get I mean, the goal is to get all alphas, which usually doesn't happen unless you're just really good. Um so that helps me with cadence, and it also helps me with ah, like my throttle control, which kind of goes into cadence, But at that point, you can actually determine. So when you're staging something, if it's close target in your head instead of just going okay, there's three targets. I'm gonna come up and go about love about. That's not what you're gonna do. You're gonna come up, and if they're close, you and your bang bang, bang, bang, bang bang. If this one's far, it's gonna be more like bang bang. I mean, that's your cadence. So that really helps me with that. That's mostly what I've been working on because it works. Multiple sayings that works. You draw your side acquisition, your cadence, your throttle control and it helps you understand, Helps me anyway, understand this speed at which I can operate certain distances because I mean, some of them we're gonna be right there in your face. You still need to aim. But it's not a CZ crucial. You have a lot more forgiveness there than, like a 2025 yard target. So that's really the main thing that I've been working on and then just super basic fundamentals that I won't forget. Whenever I get flustered or frustrated or if I miss and instead of thinking about my reload, I'm thinking about my ms. And so that's what I've been working on.

spk_0:   1:0:37
All right, Very good. So they're loading up, getting ready to head to Rosenberg like we said the Henry's Cup and we'll be back. All right, that's gonna conclude today's episode. We thank everybody for Tune in the end, Be sure and tune in in a couple more weeks, and we're gonna go over again. We'll do the same thing we'll have. Our shooting challenge will have some recaps, and Samat scores from around the country will go over how Joseph and Steve did down in Rosenberg Henry's Cup. Ah, on the other side. I'm coming in. We're gonna talk about betting rifles, how we do it here. And while we do what we do, why do you need to bed your rifle? Uh, should have Blake. Lyle's here from 415 Training will go over some training and drills with him. Give us a lot of U. S. P s a top stuff from for next time. So remember to subscribe to the podcast and please share it with all of your shooting friends and encourage them Tow, listen to it. And we appreciate y'all training in, Have a good day and keep shooting straight.