We visit with Paul Tolvstad about manufacturing barrels and everything that goes into that process and we finish with Bleeding Off w/ Joseph as he goes over how Misses and Penalties can greatly hurt your game in USPSA.
We visit with Paul Tolvstad about manufacturing barrels and everything that goes into that process and we finish with Bleeding Off w/ Joseph as he goes over how Misses and Penalties can greatly hurt your game in USPSA.
Hello and welcome to straight shooting. With Dane and Joseph. Tune into this podcast to get the latest news on competitive shooting events and to learn how to become a better shooter. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and be sure to recommend it to all of your shooting friends. Welcome. Never won with straight shooting with Dan and Joseph. I'm Dan Keller along here with Joseph Stacker. Please remember to go on Facebook and Instagram and like us to follow us for Ely Kelo shooting sports. My personal instagram is shooting accuracy and Josephs is P s photo. Go previous. Today's show we're gonna have a few score updates. What matches have been able to operate and gonna go over some U. S. P s a update from Joseph? I guess on your match in Austin, we have our straight shooting challenge where we went out yesterday and did a J. J. Because a drill believe that's the one we're doing this time. And then we're gonna come in and talk a little bit about barrels. We're gonna have Paul toast dead on with this works with us here. Kelo shooting sports and has some extensive barrel knowledge has worked for a couple of different barrel manufacturers and then that for a while. Then we've got bleeding off with Joseph where we're going to talk about no marks, no Mrs No penalties. And how crucial that is to your overall score.
Very few, anyway. That's right. I don't know, but all
right, moving on to some match up dates Here are 50 50. They are still having a match. March 21 2 22 Piney hell Indoor and Luray, Virginia Supporter Nationals followed by the three gun nationals. That match is still a go, eh? Are a 22 rim fire bench rest, indoor match, March 14th and frog level. They had their club tournament build, German was third, Richard Morgan was second and Jerry Smith won that. Don't forget, Ira is going to have the factory rifle give away after the first quarter. We've got a savage rifle with a side tron scope in 500 rounds of Ely precision that will be given away in the way to get in on that raffle is to compete in an air a sanctioned factory match. Every target you complete will get you one entry into the drawing. So be sure and going. American Rim fire dot com Find on air a match. It's in your area that still going on and participate in a factory match, and we'll do that and we're gonna give away one each quarter. So we're going to do the 1st 1 April 7th. I believe it is. Eight will have the drawing once we get all the scores in for the 1st 3 months of the year. Other A are a match is coming up right now. The It is still a go on March 28th and 29th for the Chicken Foot Indoor Club tournament in Cedar Town, Georgia. That'll be a club tournament as well as a Georgia State tournament to finish out the indoor season for this year, and that is ago. Cedar Town, Georgia. As of today, look for updates on that. If there is a change of that, it will be changed on Monday. But look at American Rim fire dot com for any other match. Updates on that in our L 20 to the March 28th Ely Rocky Mountain in our 22 regional match at North Spring Shooting range in price, Utah has been postponed working on a day to come up with that and we will get back to you with that, but definitely gonna have that match. Just trying to figure out if it's going to be made. I mean, June or July working towards that Jim Cannon that's been instrumental in that's got a new baby on the way have the Oriel 22 national match in May. So trying to get everything scheduled around so that we don't step on anything and, um, go from there. All right, U S P s a updates how to go When you went to Austin, correct? Yeah, it was a
little local match that they have their, um it's a really good matches kind of rainy that day, but they didn't have any issues really, with the course or anything. I didn't do very well in particular. Just was kind of a learning match for me. Not so much with shooting or ah working on anything like that, mostly with products that I use. We have cleaning and maintenance of again found out some things about that that I hadn't thought about previously. It was kind of cold that morning, and the the oil or the lube that I use on the slide got kind of gummed up because of the temperatures. They're just kind of chili. And so had some issues there. So I had to address that. But I've got it figured out now, so just another just another learning match for me. Ah, shot. Okay, um, should have done really well. It was a really good match. Um, it kind of suited me, but just had some issues with a gun that they were my fault. But I know what they are now, so they've got them fixed. Um, so I learned the hard way that way, but it was really good match. They've got local matches there once a month at a couple different ranges. They have, um, they have him there at the range. It's just called the range in Austin. I think it's kind of pretty central Austin. This one was in Ah, Maynor. But it's a really good, really good range is a great match. Kind of learning experience for me, unfortunately.
All right, well, that's what you got to do. What? Blake say, winner learn.
Yeah. You either win or you.
Hopefully you learned that if you lose and don't learn and wouldn't. Then why in the world did you get so
It's a lot of learning.
All right. Very good. Moving along the straight shooting challenge. Give him. I had a little update on what we did yesterday. There does it. I
was not necessarily a challenge is more of a drill. Um, but it's something that's been circulating online a lot of guys were doing. Ah, it's nothing new. It's basically called a bill drill. Where, um, you shoot three rounds after your draw, you're still on the buzzer. You keep track of your time and everything. So you draw shoot three at the same target mandatory reload, shoot three more. Ah, kind of recirculated from J. J. Caza. And so you got a bunch of people doing it. So we just hopped on board, and so how we could do it? The only thing different is we're using our 22 pistols instead of open guns. But
yeah, so this is a U. S. B. S a style drill where typically you would do it with your USPS a gun. But we've got a couple of Kurt crimes is built for us 22 pistols that air pretty close replicas. And what is it? Open
open guns. They're just caliber. And 22. That's
right. They've got a Caspian frame with attack Seoul conversion on him. And just like pulling out your 2011 they're blasting away. It's a lot of fun, not near the muzzle flip,
and it's really cheap.
We use Emilie force and IRS works really good. Accurate seems to cycle every single time, keeps a gun pretty clean, and the holes in the paper or a lot smaller
But it's a lot of fun. Good way to get some training in and what not if you've got a, you know, a smaller area or something to maybe can't do 38 cow or because of noise or whatever various reasons. If you're able to get set up like this, it sure is a lot of fun. You can get a lot of shots and without getting beat down too bad, and there's a lot more price effective, too. So check that out. We've got that you've got that posted on YouTube.
Yes, well, it will be, uh, whenever this goes up.
All right? Very good. So get on there. We've got our times on it. Just it sort a lot better in mind, obviously look like a beginner, cause I am a beginner. It's a little bit different on the mag Janes with two
visible skinny MAGS. And the mag well, is not quite as big, so it's a little more difficult. You got to be a lot more precise whenever you put that mag in there. But other than that, it's, ah, almost a clone. Just a little smaller frame.
So go on their video yourself. Give us your time's on what you're doing. J. J likes to do it in two and 1/2 seconds. We're like, we're not anywhere near two and 1/2 seconds, but ah, suspect most people in the country or not anywhere near two and 1/2 seconds.
Yeah, I must. Those guys air are really, really good shooters, and there are some. Ours would probably be faster. There are some some differences with those pistols that we're using as faras the size and the way that that they sit in the holster so that it's just something that we kind of worked through. But if you I think that you have a good time or if you can do it in that two and 1/2 seconds or just beat our times and let's see it. I'd like to see it or what you're using to do that.
All right, Very good. Go to YouTube Channel there for straight cheating with Dan and Joseph. Check that out. All right. Moving right along to precision shots brought to you by Kelo Shooting Sports your one stop shop for competition, shooting needs and to reiterate, we do have plenty of ammunition if you're looking for ammo and it sold off the shelf. Go to Kill, Oh, shooting sports dot com. We do have some in stock. 38 Super compas well as 22 and all the different Ely varieties. We have plenty of it. Get on there. We can get ups to bring it writes there straight to you
way have it. There's no shortage for us. I mean, we've got target demo for plinking. We have easily cycle bowl ammo to run through a pistol or repeating rifle. Either one. If you want competition ammo feud, sitting at home, that's a deer, and you wanna do some shooting than we've got. Whatever you could ever need.
All right. Very good. Today, we're gonna talk about barrels and everything that goes into barrels. I'm gonna call up Paul on the phone. We're gonna have our first phone interview on here, and we'll see how this goes. I think it'll go. Well, as we get Paul coming in here on the phone, give him a call.
Cannot be completed.
That figures. Give it another try. Here,
Give him a heads up and he still doesn't answer.
Well, it comes up. There we go. Now we get it. All right. We've got your first time we called you. We got the perm. Perm, Perm. The call cannot be completed as dialed,
All right, today we've got on the phone. Paul Toast. Ed works with us. Akello shooting sports lives in Fonda lack Wisconsin. But if you call into our main number, Paul more likely going to be the one to answer the phone. But Paul has some extensive knowledge with barrels. Has worked for a couple different barrel manufacturers. And so today we're gonna talk about mainly rim fire barrels, but we'll cover a little bit. Own center fire barrels as well. Paul, we're tell. Tell everybody about your experiences in the different barrel makers you have actually worked for.
I worked originally. The first barrel maker I worked for was brought in barrels for Tim North. And I think that started her own 2000 to 2003. I worked for him, and then after I worked for him, I went down and worked for Rock Creek barrels for Mike Rock. Kim Tyler, Um, and I work there, started there in, like, 2006 and work there all the way until I until I started working for you in a boat. Was the 2014 or 15 I guess. Um, and then, Ah, Dan Miller is actually the one that got me in the barrel making. He helped to North start brought in. And he asked me if I was actually running a a gun shop in Lemire, a Wisconsin for years. And Dan was a good customer of mine and ask me if I wanted to make rifle barrels instead of spending all my nights and weekends at the gun shop. So started that with him. And then Ah, we're also worked at Rock Creek girls with him. And now I helped him with the mother works parables.
All right? Very good. So we, of course, are. We mainly talk about rim fire barrels, but, um, in a lot of this will apply to center fire barrels. But tell us a little bit about what the difference is between. So you're here. I take what? Let's start off. Tell us, how do you How do you make a barrel when it comes in? It comes in as just a round bar. Steel. Am I correct?
Yep. Long? Yeah, They're about, I think, 12 to 14 foot long, uh, around stock and then just comes in, and typically they'll get cut in the 27 28 tow. You know, anywhere up the 32 inch, sometimes even 30 for INGE pieces. But typically for what we do, it'll be a 27 or 28 inch blank.
How big is it? I mean, how what's the matter?
Yeah, Most of the center fire stuff is an inch too. 50 in diameter, inch to 67. Um, you know, But that goes all the way up toe an inch and 1/2 depending on what it is, you know, like 50 kale stuff. You know, stuff like that. We've even done stuff that's engine it three to inches inch and 3/4 in diameter, but most years center fire stuff. Is that inch 2 52 67 And then, uh, empire stuff. Typically, when it comes in a financial 32 or just the straight inch in diameter, and that has to be turned and contoured from there, it's really comes in. We cut it and cut it in the lengths, and then, um, take it over on Les than Face it, you know. So it's all still square and then put a damper on it. And then, depending on what you're doing, sometimes it'll go into a heat treat oven right away after that's done, and then, um, then they gets drilled with the gun drill and then to a certain size with the like. A 22 will get drilled 2 to 11 and then I will get reamed. So your dream, that drilled hole and typically depending on what you're doing, if it's button there, cut our ties, your buttons, it'll be anywhere. You know, the Remo will be anywhere from to 16 to 17 typically.
So what does that drill machine look like? I mean, you know, we talk. I mean, it's not a drill press. It's not.
No, no, it doesn't. It doesn't look like a normal do. Really. And it's a really long skinny tube that's kind of like a V shaped tube. And then, um, so they get oil gets forced through that tube, and then as the chips for being cut, the oil flushes those chips through the V part of it. Then it comes back out through the back side of the dirt, you know, into a odor, shooting them down into the bottom of the drill into where catches the shaving, the drill, shaving the minute the oil sort of neutral stuff that turned on all the oil dreams back into the tank.
OK? And how big machine is. Because this is the Pratt and Whitney submission
video. Yeah, mostly these air old pride with the machines, and they're quite big. Um, I don't know. I
mean, summer 10 or 12 feet long.
Yeah. Yeah. Even the big ones that, like they did, you know, we had one that you did. Ah, They did like cannon barrels and, you know, sometimes even like the ship brought me, knows things. They're like the side of a building. Their gigantic.
But these were the good. I mean, a lot of these machines were baiting in the thirties, forties or fifties. Am I correct? Yeah.
Yeah. Either War, war, war, war, war, war, War, too. You know, machines.
It's just quite impressive when I have seen these. And another thing, that kind of thing, you know, is me being a layman, coming in, messing around in my shop and what not. I mean, I think about any time you have a drill, you've got something that's turning the bit. And then whatever you're drilling, stay stationary. But a lot of these I've seen it's by sparks in the actual big dreamer states. Steel in the barrel is turning.
Yep, Right. So when it's drilled the barrel spender than the drill stationery, um, and then some of them have a counter rotator where the where the barrel spit in and turn on the opposite way to try to keep it straight. You know when you drill, but but the sharpening of the drill is the key is the key thing. Get a straight hole. That drill. The tip of that drill, which is covered by it, has to be sharpened perfectly. Otherwise, it'll wander, you know, as you're being as it's being drilled. So
So you drilling
China? It's kind of a quite It's quite an art, actually. Due to ah sharp in one of those drills.
Okay, so you're gonna drill it and get it reasonably close, And then the reamer is just a more precise way to do it to get right. Okay.
Yeah. Makes a nice round hole with the ring.
So what machine are they doing it with? Rumors on the same type of machine?
Well, no, that's the thing. Rumors are several different ways. A ream. Um, Pratt Whitney did make dreamers. We had one of those when I was at Rock Creek. Um, Dan Miller has a CNC reamer that he made himself, and then, um, the Reamer, like we used abroad, in which a lot of places uses just delays. Just a closing lay that you know, that we hooked up and then had an oil system on it. And that's how we ring. Was on just the lady. I mean, a lot of places do that. So it's not a that could be done. A ton of different ways. And I'm actually some I've seen somewhere, um, on the old Pratt Whitney drill. They said at one side was a drill than the other side. They used the REMO. So there's a lot of different ways you can read for reigning than not. I mean, in some places there horning, they don't remember the home, they hold the whole, But they'll do that after the ream, the home instead of pre lapping the blank, they'll actually hold it after after the rain.
Okay. All right. So you've drilled it, you rained it. And then you say you'll pre lap it,
you pre lap it. You're holding it right? Yep.
Okay, so lap home. Alright, So let's talk a little bit about lapping for those that don't understand. What is that lapping process look like? And I mean, how do you have to make a lap? How do you do a lap? Describe it, toe somebody. So,
basically, you you take a cleaning rod and then grind it to a point and then grand little notches on to that point that holds the lead on to the onto that rod. And then behind that point, some places rap string around the rod. Um, we use like, blue painter's tape. You wrap that around the rod and that stops the, uh when you pour the lead into the barrel, it stops the lead from going down the barrel, so it makes it nice. Clean lap.
Okay, so then
when you laugh,
so you gotta let
you think it is a pure lead you need, you need to have pure lead. You can't. You don't want to use any lead with any type of, you know, like any additive to you wanted to be pure lead.
Okay, so you're gonna pour melted lead into the barrel, and then that way it hardens. It's forming a perfect storm,
the forms to the shape of the of the barrel,
and it's already formed
on the on the pre lab, the pre lap. It just warms to the, you know, round inside of the blank, and that's what you want. You want a good dream because you don't want to spend a lot of time pre lapping because you want that hole to be is perfectly round as possible. So that pre lap hole you want that re little or horned hold to be perfect round you can get it.
OK, so you've got you board the lead in there, and it's also around your cleaning ride that way that you can move the lady back and forth. So you're gonna pull it out then and then put it in some type of lapping compound
right? Then we put there, Then we push it out the end, add lapping compound. And then, um, usually, typically, most people put it under power. So put it like in a lazy and the barrel spins, and then you just pull the lap back and forth through the barrel. That removes the, you know, kind of like Think about the Corning are still in there on a you know, like an engine or something. You want that?
kind of holding that barrel to get the get the remarks out of it.
You're lining the inside of it with lead.
Yeah, for a short segment and you push that out.
That's about yeah, the lead laps. Typically, I'm here not crucial, but, you know, 345 inches long. You know typically,
Okay. And they're gonna push that output lapping compound on it, which is basically some type of liquid sandpaper, essentially with various grits. I mean, you're using. I mean, you're not using, like, 30 grit, but I mean, you're using something. No,
no. Right. Yeah, mostly, it's just aluminum oxide mixed with some type of your Easter, and some people use clover. Um,
okay, but that's kind of in that kind of the ancient Chinese secret for each barrel maker that they all have a special recipe.
Yeah, kind of. I mean, it just depends on what everybody kind of probably uses a generally in that same great size were lapping, but everybody's got their own little thing. Kind of one of those things. It's kind of particular. Probably teach barrel maker.
Okay. All right. So now you pre lap it, which is not a whole lot of lapping Justin. Just enough like yourself. Just
remove. Remove the real. We have to remove the remark.
Okay. All right. What do you do after that?
So then it gets, uh, pre lapped, and then it'll get cleaned, like, super clean, and then we take it over, and then typically places either used some type of Greece or lube or like a soap with copper plate, and then they'll pour that down and I'll get, um, applied to the inner part of the barrel and I'll get taken over to the button polar, and then just pull the button.
Okay? All right. Tell us a little bit. So now we're talking about pulling a button. So this is where you get to the difference between a button rifle barrel versus a cut. Rothenberg. Okay, correct. So tell us. Tell us the difference between the difference between button rifle and kill devil.
So then the button rifle, you pull the button, get done with that, and again, you go over and you'll clean it out. Super clean. Get it really clean. I'm typically after buttoning. You'll have to put it in. Thea. He treat Owen so that gets put in the e treat oven to go through the e treat cycle. The remove stress from the buttoning process versus versus the cut rifle barrel where you typically won't have to do it correctly. Barrel just comes in. It gets drilled. Grand Prix lap gets cut. Rifle gets final lap. Depends on what they do. Some people final lap it encountered some people contour it, then final lap it, which typically is what you would do. I mean that the right process is to cut Rifle it then then, ah, contoured than final lap it.
Okay, then they can
go out the door versus versus with the button rifling where you have to Probably due to heat treat, you know, on a button barrel vs Not really having it. The steel comes in from the steel manufacturer and it's made correctly, you know, as a cut rifle barrel maker, you won't have to do that, but sometimes you do have to heat treat him
so button rifle. You're gonna pull the button down the barrel and it's gonna push or force that barrel into the shape of that button. Correct on the intern on the internal. What? What is that button made out of?
It's This car is a carbide button.
It's a car, not Bo.
It folded accorded, Yeah, coated carbide button.
And then So let's say you're making a four grooved barrel. This button is gonna be shaped with those four grooves cut out of it. Yeah, basically
a button basically a button for just regular terms. Looks like a football, basically. So I'm I'm, uh, you know, like where you would grip the football where the scenes are. That's kind of, you know, like the buried biggest diameter of the
kind of where the little grooves are cut into the button
on that part's a woman, and then the group will actually be kind of cut in there and and have, like a helix will be toe what Twister it would be. So some people turn the barrel while and then just pull the button, turn the barrel dependent they're pushing or pulling it. Some people turned their button ride, so it's it's done different ways. Like you said, some people push button. Some people pull button. You know, there's different ways of buttoning, but actually that button looks the same. It's kind of for a layman, terms kind of looks like a football with, like, that shirt with the tip, you know, flat. Basically.
Okay, So you're gonna pull that through there and then whichever way you're dude, that's also where you're gonna introduce, Of course, the twist rate. Meaning right. How many? So like a one in 16 Twist means the bullet turns one revolution as it goes 16 minutes in the barrel. Correct. OK, so now, though, buttons do they need to be sharpened and re sharpened, or they just haven't they? How does that work?
You know, there. Yeah. They were good for a long time. You pull a lot of your ability to make a lot of barrels of one button.
Okay. Now, did most places make their own buttons in house? Or is that something you order in?
Uh, yes. Some of the barrel makers do make their own buttons. Some people order men. There's different manufacturers that make buttons. So yeah, it's done both ways from some grind their own button. Some order the border buttons to a public company.
Okay, So you he treated the barrel, and that softens the metal somewhat so that you can do this, because again, the button doesn't cut. Metal is just pushing it, enforcing it
later. That right
in there as opposed to a cut rifle barrel. Which knot? What is a cut rifle? What does that look like when they actually do that? To cut the rifling in there?
Yeah. So it's Ah, So there's ah ah, round head on the end of a rod And it's probably eternal. Inches longer, so sexy in so long. Um, and there's Ah, but a well shaped pocket where there's a cutter inserted into it. On the end of that, there's like a threaded piece that's on the very tip of the and of the rifling head. Um, so it is. The head's pulled through the barrel, it's cutting it. Then it comes back, and then it's the barrel turns, and then they cut. The next group goes back, and it takes probably about 1/2 an hour to cut one barrel. Um, and after, let's see if you're cutting a four groove after the fourth cut, it comes out and then it it hit the pocket and it rotates in a little bit, so it raises the hook a little bit. So then it. Then it cuts the next, you know. So it just heightens the cutter till it gets to the side where it needs to be
okay. But it's gonna cut that that's a time
yes, coach each group one of the time and then let's say it takes Let's say it took 1/2 an hour. Let's just say for a four group barrel, well, it's gonna take an hour for an acre barrel.
so on the on the button is there Is there a difference? Or would would it make any difference? Like the depths in which it grooves like deep your grooves go or how wide they are?
Yeah, So typically, um, a lot of places have different sizes to those buttons. So, like every problem with Blake with a. But when you get in, your button maker is every lot of steel that comes in react differently to your button. So you'll have, Let's say, if I have a Ford before, um, I like a muller for my bro, I'll have three different sizes of that button, so when I get a feeling I could pull it to see what it's making. So what it does is when you pull that button that comes out to a certain size, and when you put it in the heat, treat over and it actually springs back about half of thousands. So every time you get new lots of stealing, you have to try it to see what size is gonna come out to be of the just So what button you're using or what? Even what ream size, you'll dream to a different size to figure out what what size it comes out, right? So that's the one thing with button barrels is you gotta be ableto figure out what size button and what size dream holds you need to use with different lots of steel in different guys. Feel
an inch to 50 blank will spring back more than a niche, you know, an inch diameter blink,
right? Is that something that is kind of trial and error, or is that Yep. Just comes with the job. You
try? Well, yeah. I mean, at first round here, then kind of after you've done in a while, you would just be like, Okay, it's probably gonna be this, you know, pull them, and you just kind of get it figured. But it's definitely one of the trials of being a button makers barrel makers having to deal with that. But like I said after the company has been doing it a while, they pretty much just know it's gonna be
okay. So you're going to
somebody That was going to start somebody. I was gonna start a new company. It would definitely be, uh, definitely a trial of trial and error, period.
I just figured that out before you. You didn't have any success? Probably.
So how many times do you use pull that button once?
Ah, yes, typically, just once you
tell me, Tell me,
People pull. Some people have a button, it's the button. And then there's a trailer ball that built into that button. So where would it comes? So you'll pull a button in that trailer ball comes along and flattens the top of the Landau.
some people pull a button, and then they'll actually have a separate trailer ball that they would all different sizes. And you can get that. You'll get your board to mention to the side that you want it by pulling that Some companies use trailer balls. Some companies don't use trailer balls, just kind of different. Each company's different that way.
Okay, so is it any different? Own chrome ali versus stainless steel barrels?
Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. Stainless steel. You need special lube thio to button it. Quite a bit of different process. Crow. Molly, typically you can just pull it with just, you know, a regular old you know, hardware store dreams.
Okay, So Okay, that
is the one thing about Kroll. Miley. It doesn't call like stainless those so you can. And that's why a lot of like, you know, people ask, like, what's the difference between a $60 barrel in a $300 barrel? Well, typically like on those cheap like, let's say, air 10 22 barrels. If they're crow Miley, they're just drill dreams. They put some grease on a button and boom, pull it down. Note it goes, They don't heat treated, they don't do nothing. It's just drill green button done. And then whatever company they contour do whatever they do, Um, they don't go through all that process. That's kind of the difference in different barrels like that is just the process that's gone through to be able to do, to be able to make the barrels so pregnant, and thus the difference in price range in those button barrels.
All right, now what on the stainless steel, what do you know what steal that typically is?
It's 4 16 are typically
for 16 hours. We get that question? The crow.
Miley is usually crow. Miley, usually 41. 40. Crow. Molly.
Okay, Okay. All right. So you've done all this? You, Ah, most of rim fire barrels that we typically use and see in the bitterest world. Or button raffled. Yeah. So after you pulled that button Now, what's the process? What are you gonna do now?
So pull the button, put it in the heat. Treat of And
don't I get harder again?
No. To remove stress from the buttoning process.
That's right. Because you forced that. So the rest
into the barrel
basically meaning the outside diameter hadn't changed. But you drug something down the middle of it and forced steal out against it. So
now So now whenever you he treated your expanding that back and we're
Yes, yes. Now, when you heat treated right, the internal dimensions will spring back after during heat treat.
Okay. All right. So you're gonna tell us about the heat treat. What does that look like?
It's ah. Most companies just use like, a round pottery type loving, so it's usually battle how wide and you don't just big round,
just like an m
Like the industry. 11. Yeah, right. You can have multiple multiple industries that will use, like, the same oven, even though they're not making anything close to this problem.
Yeah. Yeah, right. Correct. Yep. Till then, it Elinor's Iraq. And there and then the barrels get set into that rack
they put into any kind of liquid or anything.
they're just put in there, it just there. And then, um, it'll get put in the heat. Treat oven. There typically ramps up to a certain temperature over like a 45 hour period, then holds that temperature for four or five hours and then ramps. Then it shuts off and then just let it cool off. So let's say at the end of the day, let's say I quit at five o'clock. You put the barrels in the heat, treat over and turn on the beach it over. And then by the next morning, you come in. You should be able to open the you know sometime that morning, you should be able to open the lid on it and just let him cool the rest of the way. But typically don't want to open that. Typically, don't open that letter. Do anything till they're down to about 100 degrees or less.
Is it possible toe over. Treat one.
Yes. You can overheat. Treat him, and then it'll actually soften him. It'll actually draw it back. So you don't want to do it.
Is you do that. Would it? Would it be an option to just re button it, Which I know you said you typically only want to run that through once? Um, yeah, but like in my mind's theoretically, if I'm boring something out. But there's a process to close that yet because, um, then
yeah, yeah, You can be button twice. Okay. It's just tricky to get it lined up correctly. Rocking time.
Yeah. Yeah, just like that. Six.
It takes some touch to do it twice.
So, about how hot are these things getting up to in the heat? Treat
Ah, somewhere over 1000 degrees.
Okay. Okay. Ber dang. Hot. Pretty darn it. All right, so now you're you hate. Treated it. Now, what do you do
so a T treated than it comes. Pull him out of the heat, treat on and take him over the kind to relieve. Uh, most of what we do. You know, just let's say I've got a one inch plane. Could take it over the country, leave turn it down the 900 straight, take it into the other room and, uh, put it in the cradle and saying the outside to get all the machine marks off it and sticking in us leaving turning the ship. Well,
was finally ready
to be final lap. Right? And then ship.
Okay, so tell it. So the final lapping own are So what's What's a standard off the shelf final lap Look, like on a barrel? I mean, for not not for one of our taper lap, but just a typical final lap hurdy They fired. Yeah. I mean, so I mean, you're going to do that and do just a quick lap on every barrel that you finish up. Is that correct? Even a center fire.
Yeah. Told yeah, center fire barrels. Typically, you want to put did you take a center fire? Baron? Put about 1/10 of choke into a center fire barrel, so there's not as much lapping, um, involved in center fire barrels. Um verses, the rim fire bear where you're putting 2 to 10 23 10,000 Taper into him. And then you want that paper to be, You know, Riel. Very gradual taper from breach the muzzles. Let's where takes a lot of years of learning and
right, OK, see
Jin D'Amato do that.
OK, so for those that aren't involved in rim fire, the trick has seemed to be to get one to be very accurate. Is toe have a tapered bore in a barrel? Essentially. And, Paul, you correct me if I tell you this wrong, but we're shooting a lead bullet. So the lead is going to squeeze down to whatever size this the barrel squeeze it down to now if its smallest in, for instance, if its smallest in the center of the barrel, the lead is going to squeezed down to that size. But then if the barrel gets slightly bigger now, the lead bullet is just kind of rattling around there.
It has room to play
right for better? Yes, for a better term. Yeah, basically, that's what you would say, right?
I'm afraid it would
get four stone do it smaller size, and then if it got bigger than it would just like you said it would, Which would kill accuracy.
Exactly. So what you want is you want it to from the chamber into the muzzle, and you want it to get slightly smaller as it goes, right? And that way, I mean, worst
case scenario, you would want it to be just even would be. Worst case, you just don't want it to be bigger, you know, Then what the breach end is, but yeah, typically, you'd want some type of paper,
and when it
did, you know,
and you want that absolute tied a spot at the muzzle
at the model right? Yet?
So that's why a lot of people say had a gunsmith. We get people call in and want a gun and say, All right, I want 24 inches long barrel, and typically, what's our response to that?
Typically, it's like, uh,
to whatever the tightest spot is. Yeah,
if you want it. Actually, you
can. Which you can. You know what? You can do it because you can cut more off the breach end, which is nice. With a 900 straight barrel, you can cut more off the back end to get it to that link. You know what I mean? So you can adjust it that way. Where's with, like, a contoured? If you have like a contra barrel, you're you're limited to. What you can do is taking as much off the back end as you need.
that is what's nice about the straight paper barrels is you can adjust that length tow wherever you want, kind of by how much you take off one under the other. Where is with a You know something that's got a tape, a contra to it. You're You know, he only got a few inches at the back and that you can play with.
So most gunsmiths that doo rim fire Pinterest. What they'll do is they'll pull a bullet from a 22 round, have Ah, the way we do it here is we'll just have that barrel in a vise just to hold it and tapped the bullet into the Muslim and get it in there. And then we've got a rod that essentially looks like a cleaning ride. They will push against it and then you push that slug that our bullet you push that slug down the barrel, and you're feeling for that thing to get tighter, looser, and hopefully it's just gonna You're gonna feel it gradually be tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter, and what they'll do is they'll measure that on finding the tide of spot in market. And that's where you want to cut the muzzle.
Yeah, and that's That's what they showed us a shilling getting it last year because they have that. It's like a pressure gauge. Almost.
Yeah, they air gauge in air gauge, and that's one way you can do it there the easy way or, I say, the easy way. The cheap way to do is like what you say. Feeling feeling. But there again, that takes experience. That's where the art side of things come in and what you found and done and why Rim fire been tress gunsmith might be a little bit different than than your average guy doing doing some stuff. So it, um I mean,
I've talked, you know, one of the top gun Spencer. He's, you know, did a barrel. Not that long ago. I mean, he spent almost an hour slugging that barrel toe find exactly where he wanted to cut it off.
push It pushes blood from the breach to the model and then take a leg and push it back from the muzzle towards the breach and then push it, you know, and try to find exactly where that spot is that read the paper. You know the measure different places down the barrel and push that flood back out measure and push it back in Madrid. So it can be quite a process to get that where they wanted.
And it's also why a lot of people when they say, I've got a 24 inch man, I really want an 18 inch and it's already on a gun. It's a used barrel that you don't want to just cut off from the muzzle in right from
the muzzle in, right? Yeah. You basically want to always take the breach, end off the because you'll be cutting it.
But then you had a re chamber, and you've got to go through a letter, the process. So
So when you're ordering your rim fire barrels, make sure you're getting them from someone that has taper lap barrels and that they know whether because they are a little bit different on there is. Ah, Paul. Sounds like the UPS guy's showing up at the door gets done.
You know, everything's all delivery now because of the
Yeah, we're not talking about that today. We're crawling free today. A free today. We're not sponsored by Corona. All right. Anything else then? That goes into on the barrel manufacturing side there that we haven't covered?
Um, not really. I mean, there's different. Like you said, you have the button rifle barrels. You have, um, a rifle barrels. You also have, like, hammer forge barrels where they put a ford, you know? So you take a manual that looks that the rifle that looks, you know, opposite you stick it down the barrel, Then it gets hammered on from the outside that forms the rifling on the inside of the barrel
on. That's another way. Then you've got broaching, which is, um, a big, long bro. Just got a little teeth on it. Look, little hooks all over it, and then it just gets pulled One. So it's not like a regular cover. It'll be your word. You know, All these different strokes, it gets pulled one time through the barrel will be so it's broach what they call broach cutting.
That's like a medium between cut rifle and ah,
and button, Right? Yeah, yeah, kind of something like that. It's but they're broaches are very expensive. And again, typically, you'd want different you know you got Then you have to have a broach. Then you have to have another broach in case approach breaks or you need to have one. So let's say your broach gets dull. You have to send it back to be re serpent. And then you make sure you got another bro so it can get expensive to be involved in the broach.
I have to be
All right. Very good. Only other thing we haven't covered that we don't just run out of time. Today is one of these days. We'll get you back on again and talk about all the different grooves and doing a two grew for groove Six Groove a Groove And then the canted in the ratchet groove And all the various ones are knows, but ah, we'll go over that another time. Look forward to that All right. Very good. Appreciate you coming on the day and covering that again. That's Paul toasted with cello shooting sports going over his barrel knowledge. And thanks a lot, Paul. We will talk to you. Sing.
All right. Sound good?
all right, that wraps up precision shots brought to you by kill. Oh, shooting sports there and leads us in tow. Bleeding off with Joseph. No, Max, no. Max is Today's topic is we want to go over a little bit of U. S. P s a top stuff, or Joseph has been going in and doing some training and going to matches. All right, what you got on? No, Max.
So it it it seems like it should be obvious that
now what is a mock
I'd like is a big interest. And so so
And it's pretty much all shooting related sports They they still use kind of like military terminology toe wear, like instead of just saying ABC, You say alpha, Bravo, Charlie Delta. Well, for a miss or, you know, m word, it's my like that. So it's like, Who is Mike? Mike is a Miss. Mike is not something you wanna have, and it seems obvious if you're competitively shooting and the whole point is to shoot accurately, you don't want to miss well, it yes, but whenever you're trying to go as fast possible there, our circumstances toe, where you have quick transitions or farther targets or hard covered targets versus easily visible targets to non easily visible targets. You have swingers. You have poppers and activators. I mean, there's there's all these different things that are designed to hinder your accuracy. So Mrs happened, you know Mike's happen. And so what I'm seeing that I'm having to do now is I've put all this effort and my movements with moving faster, more efficiently and not having any dead space or like gray areas toe where I'm adding unnecessary positions or movements while I'm having to regress that now toe where the form is still there. But not necessarily the speed to make up for those accuracy changes. Because since I'm now moving faster, even though it's more efficiently, it's still faster. And so I'm seeing a decline in my accuracy in my hits. And so it's kind of like, you know, I've worked on my movements like my accuracy and my movements were both here. Probably my accuracy was a little higher, so I increase that well. Now my my shots on paper or steal, you know that's what's lacking. And so now I have to do that.
You're accurate, but you were slower, so you tried to increase your speed and they're doing that. You and less
angry creates your accuracy yet, and so it's kind of like a balancing act. In a perfect world, those would be level but sent that there's human error in there. And so it's very rarely level between your your movements that wish you at which you can perform and your accuracy at which you can do at that speed. And so that's That's what I'm trying to work on now. And there's a There's a lot of factors that go into it as faras like have The stage is designed, how fast you are able to do it, versus how fast you should do it, and just a lot of things the the way that the points are set up the way that it scored. It just It's really hard to calculating your mind while you're doing it and put it on paper and make it where it makes sense, and you can see what you should do. But sometimes whenever that that buzzer clicks off, your mind goes blank and you just see paper and try to put holes in it.
Everybody has a play until you get punched in the mouth. Yeah, so to kind of explain to our non U. S. P s a shooter's, you've got, like, a silhouette looking target that you're shooting at. They have different zones, own it. Where you wanna hit the A zone is the center, and then they have a C zone, which is a little farther out, and then the D zone is out. So it's a no Alfa Charlie or Delta or a Mike or Mike. And for if you're a major power classification, the Alphas get five points per hit. Charlie's get four points and Delta's get, too. If you have a minor power factor, which means less recall because it's a softer shooting round, therefore should be easier. Theoretically. Then you get five points for Alfa, three points for Charlie and one for Delta, so that that's one of the reasons why you want to try to shoot major power factor is because those Mrs don't hurt you
bad and and basically, with the way that they're scored between minor and major, all they're doing is rewarding people who were shooting more recoil so that the the force at which those rounds are putting out is a lot higher than likes a regular nine millimeter Luger. Your record's very minimum, and they don't factor in, you know, because if you look at your division's production, can't have muzzle brakes or, you know, ports on the muzzle stuff like that open guns can. But it's because you have tohave that to offset the massive amount of recoil that you're having from these rounds. And so that's what they're rewarding is even if you're shooting like a production Glock versus ah 2011 S. T. I. There may not look like there's much difference in re cool, but if you put those numbers on paper, what the difference is in the power from the ammo is it's It's like double. I mean, it's exponentially larger. So that's all they're doing is they're rewarding you for shooting a gun with more recoil, even though it kind of has all these other factors and and items that that also offset offset that. But you have to have those things, so it's kind of a wash, but that's all. They're rewarding with that, um, so
so basically, toe win a stage. Whoever has the highest hit factor they call it wins the stage, and the hit factor is your total points, divided by the amount of time that it took you to do that. So two shots per target, for instance. And let's say you have a short stage that six targets my doing that correct six targets is only 30 points
that B two shots per target. Assuming that they're all paper. Yes, I would. These numbers won't really reflect with steel because there's no penalties for missing steel. There could be potentially if you have, like Virginia's going and stuff like that, but we won't get into that. This is just normal con stock storing scoring on paper because that's the best way to calculate it. Um, so, yeah, you'd have you would have six paper targets, so you have two shots on each five shots per potentially. The max number of points for each shot is five points. And so that's how you get to that. That 30 points.
Okay, so two shots per target. We've got six targets. That's 60 points in it while doing this room.
It be math. Yeah, that would be 60. This would have to be It would have to be three
three targets for 30 points
at you. Because five, because two shots Max, Moment five. Both hear it out of
her paper. Yeah,
drive. Okay, so is one of my question. He's He's slowing down to make sure he doesn't have any marks. Because what what invariably happens to you happens to me all time, Especially being new. And you come to these different stages and you're trying to do is go and shoot fast. And then at the end, you realize I'll shoot. I didn't even shoot that target or you look at it and you went so fast, you shot at it twice. But you only hit it once. So rules dictate you can go back and re shoot. But at what point is it not? Is it detrimental to do that by the time that more? Is
it worth it or not? Where is the rap for you to go back and try to make up those points.
So basically, if you do the math here and word kind of trying to do the extremes here, so if the maximum is 30 points, which is very short stage and you do it in four seconds. So we're doing a hit factor, you do. 30 points divided by four is 7.5, so you're hit factor would be 7.5. And again, these examples I don't know if there's even a stage that has a minimum. I mean, toward that your maximum would only be 30. That there are some are
better only 30 points available. But some of them are steel. And so you're not. There's other factors that go into that like you're not penalized for your missus, right? And so you can shoot, you know, 20 times that these three targets and not really be penalized long. You're doing it quickly. Yeah, you eventually hit them. But this this is just a example cause we're using paper paper as an example and then just using the numbers for the total number of points available. Plus you're hit factor.
Okay, so if you have 30 maximum points and you get all 30. You got your office and you did it in four seconds. That's a hit factor. A 7.5. But let's say you get to the end and you want to go back right quick and make sure that, you know, you shot two shots at everyone and you look back. But you don't see all the holes in the paper, Meaning you did it so fast that you blew one off. How should you go back and pick that back up on
a on a short stage? It would probably be easier, because your movement is probably gonna be really minimum. And so you may have two or three total steps for your physical movement, and the targets are probably gonna be only like six or seven foot spans, you know, apart. And so your movement to make that up, Maybe this thio here, which
is real quick,
which is almost nothing. And so then and that circumstance, it would probably be beneficial as long as you realize that early. You know, if you get to the end and you're like, you know, you bring it back into your work space and you're looking around and you've already spent three seconds and turned that turn that four seconds into eight seconds. You know, it's not really gonna help you at all, then. But if you realize that on that first target there's only one hole in there and you're just now on the third target, then yeah, for sure. It's gonna be in your best interest to go back and try to pick that up. I mean, you can shoot three rounds and right, And as long as you get one that you're happy with, then it was worth it.
So we're talking a four or five second stage and you spend and maybe a max of a 2nd 2nd and 1/2 Maur. Then what we're gonna do is try to pick that back up. If it's three seconds down the road, then we're just letting it go.
Well, just just as principal Now, I Unless it's just a really long stage or has a lot of Barry years, they're gonna that are gonna play a factor in me being able to get back toe whatever position that I needed to make up. I'm probably going to try and make up as most of those shots as I can now. Just because I'm noticing how much either failure to shoot at penalties and mikes are affecting my overall score. And so you know, regardless of whatever what everybody else is shooting or the number of Ah, whatever the hit factor number is, I'm trying to increase my total number of points given in each match. And so I'm probably gonna unless it's a short shorts age like this, and just something goes terribly wrong and it's gonna take me two seconds to make up one shot on a four second stage. Then I'm probably not not gonna go for that. But in every other instance, I'm gonna really try to make those up, Justo, just to get my total number of points acquired up because that's that's really what I'm noticing that I'm lacking.
So now let's That's one extreme, extremely short, longest stage possible in U. S. P. ECE is 32 shots. That's their maximum limit. So once you get into those, you have more time to play with that. It makes a difference, not a tremendous amount. So we're looking here were saying just for example, if you have a maximum of 160 points on the stage, takes 18 seconds, that's an 8.89 But if it's some point, you get in there and you realize that you didn't even engage. A target now is when the penalty is really kicking in
a failure to shoot at penalty. I would 100% try to make that, regardless of what your hits end up being. I would really try to. Unless it's some crazy position where you're like having a kneel down or get on the ground some like that, that's gonna take you 5 10 seconds to do. I would really try to make all those up as possible route. And that's not even taking into account your hits on that target. And just even if you've just shot next to it, you know, into the berm or you just barely clipped the target and you squeaked by with a you know, a delta or something like that. That's that's better than having that penalty plus the mikes. You know, even if you miss it twice, at least you don't have that penalty from it. You just have the missus.
So the example we used here we did. Ah, let's say you get a maximum 1 60 and you did it in 18 seconds. That's an 8.89 If you failed to engage one particular target, that's gonna drop you down from 1 60 to 1 20 And so from 1 20 in 18 seconds. Same time frame. That means it's gonna be a hit factor. 667 So if you get to the end and you realize this and you go back and you pick up those other fort, you pick up those other points and get rid of the penalty. Getting you back to 6 160 points to get the same hit factor is, if you had not shot him, he just quit with 6.67 That's 24 seconds. So if you could do that in less than six seconds, you're gonna increase your hip factor. If you do it exactly six seconds, you're hit. Factor stays the same. And if you get longer in six seconds well, it wasn't worth it, right? You hurt yourself. So again, 160 points in 24 seconds is a 6.67 Hit factor. If you didn't even engage a target that's gonna knock you down to 1 20 you would have to shoot it six seconds faster in 18 seconds to get to 6.67 hit factor. So you've got a little more time on those longer stages with those more points allowed towards Main Thing is is soon as you realize you messed up, get back over there and do it. Because if you can do it halfway through the stage and it only cost you an extra second in half, then be better than going all the way. The end have to run all the way back to the beginning. Yeah, and that was the first.
And hopefully you realize that you missed something quite a ways before you get to the end of the stage. I mean, you said if you're sitting there and, you know, looking around and about, download your gun and then you realize it, Yeah, it's probably too late at that point. Um, but there's also I mean, there's Aton of other things that go into it as faras. You know, if it's if it's a short stage and say, one of whom has a no shoot, you know, covering it, you know, some. Yes, some cover on it and you hit that thing. Then it's hard to justify going back to go for it. Because if you hit it again, then you know it's basically game over on that stage because that's that's a lot of points that you just lost. Yes, plus, in your mind, as you're shooting, you're like, Okay, there's 20 points or 30 points, whatever it is right there. Do I really want to take another shot at this target, or should I just leave it where it is that you know? And hopefully I at least get 10 points from this 30 40 point stage instead of zero. And that's I mean, all these things going through your mind. It's just it's hard to process while you're doing it, and there's not like a surefire right answer on what you what you should do. So it kind of goes into your abilities. Um, like I said last time, whenever we're talking to Blake, I'm not at that point now where I know how long, like my movements take yes, liketo we saw yesterday. Um so when we did the drill, my draw was one point. Your time to my first shot was like 1.7, and that was pretty consistent. We did the drill twice, and my my time to draw my time to first shot was the same on both. My splits were also the same. So that's something that I can track. And so if I go and shoot a stage and you know, they show me the score in my time, the first shot is like two and 1/2 seconds. Then I know that there was an issue, you know, regardless of if, whenever I physically did it, I noticed a problem. They can show me those numbers. And then I I visibly see that there was a problem with my draw, making it so much slower, and so then I could can address it. Whenever you don't know those times, it's hard. Thio. It's hard to see where you can make up ground because I can tell you, you know, in high school how long it would take me to run like 100 meter dash. I can't tell you how long it takes me to run a stage that's 20 yards long from here to here while I'm shooting. You know, I just I haven't done enough examples of that. For me to be able to tell once you'd shoot like 10 15 stages, that air all kind of set up the same way. Then you can get an idea of how long it takes you to do a similar stage like that. But until you have all that experience, it's hard to say.
Point is practised drill, drill, drill. And as you get more experience, you'll become more acclimated to that. And you'll know your internal clock will be able to tell you whether to do it or not at this point. So what I'm going to do in my head is if it's a quick stage and it's gonna take me less than a second and 1/2 or two seconds, then I'm gonna do it. If it's a longer stage, if it's less than four seconds, I think I can do it. Then I'm going to do it. And honestly, until, like Joseph said, I get that internal clock right now. I'm probably just gonna make it all up until I get used to it and try, Have toe where I do not have any. No penalties and no Max.
And I mean, in a perfect world, you would you would balance your speed and accuracy toe wear at least enough. Even if you knew you would, you'd have your self awareness and after bounds those toe where you don't miss targets or forget that they're there or moved where you can see him. But sometimes it doesn't always happen. And so that's where we get into this internal dilemma on Do I make it up? Is it even worth it? Am I even doing well enoughto where it's gonna matter? Um, so all that all that kind of goes into it, and so that's that's what The point. I'm at now that probably a lot of people are stuck in to finding how understanding your abilities and how long it takes you to do certain things that you're gonna have to figure out in your head while you're shooting. Yes. Um, so that's where I'm at now.
Okay. All right, well, that wraps it up for bleeding off with Joseph. Well, appreciate everybody tuning in today. Be sure and tune in in two weeks we're gonna go over cleaning and cleaning procedures. What we do with our rim fire barrels. We'll talk a little bit. About what center Fire cleaning looks like. What we do at the range is R eally customer range here as faras cleaning and the Protocols will have Blake Lyle's back on from 415 training to go over some more training stuff with Joseph and U. S. P s a training, so be sure and tune in on that. Please subscribe to the podcast, leave its review and follow our YouTube channel. Check out K SS and Ely on Facebook and instagram. Remember Joseph is PS foe Tug on instagram and mine is shooting accuracy. Thanks a lot. Have a good day and we look forward to seeing you at the range.