Israel Horowitz (TikTok Personality) Karaite Jewish Rabbi

In this week's episode our guest is R. Israel Horowitz. Raised in an ultra-orthodox Talmudic enviroment until age 19 he is now part of the Karaite Jewish Movement. Karaism, is a Jewish movement from the 8th century. It accepts only the written Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) as supreme religious law. It rejects the Oral Torah, the Mishnah, and the Talmud used in Rabbinic Judaism. R. Horwoitz has a B. A. in psychology and he utilizes the therapeutic process to teach others his biblical perspective. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This meeting is being recorded. Welcome to another episode of Raiders of the Unknown. On today's show, we have Israel Horwitz. And the topic for today is a look at Karaite movement within the Jewish world. Mr. Horwitz, would you like to tell us a little bit about your background and how you develop into this group?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Absolutely. So my background is from the ultra-orthodox Jewish background. So I was raised among the Hasidic Jews, as well as what would be called the Yeshiva Jews. So that would be the yeshiva movement, um, focused very much on Torah study, but particularly Talmud study. Um that also leads into Jewish mysticism and ethics, but particularly as it's presented through the rabbinic framework and ideology. So uh upon further analysis and spending basically my whole childhood and adolescence deeply involved in these studies, uh, I concluded that there was too many things that were not being answered, too many things that were not being explained, even things like the lifestyle and the expectation for a man to spend his whole life engaged in Talmud study, um, disconnected from the world, disconnected from uh being a masculine man, a strong man who has the ability to provide and protect for his family, who has the ability to interact with the world fearlessly and well informed. There was a lot of um sheltering that was going on, a lot of fear of the unknown, fear of the nations, fear of um the outside world, and so everything's pretty much contained within the community. Um and you know, there's no opportunities outside of the community itself. And I just felt like that was not where I wanted to be headed. And as I struggled further on my spiritual journey, um I was advised to read the five books of Moses, which is the Torah without any commentary, um, and see what that would do for me. And when I did that, I realized that the five books of Moses, the Torah, the written word, um, was fundamentally different than what I was seeing in the religion of Judaism and in the books written by the rabbis, of which there are thousands. Um, the the revelation that's in the Torah is clear, it's simple, it's well formulated, it has the essence of the divine conveyed very well, and following it results in a moral and righteous life for anyone who believes in it. Uh, when it comes to the attitudes of rabbinic Judaism and more traditional Judaism, I found that it was actually disconnected from the foundation of the very religion that it claimed to represent. So um being raised Orthodox, the idea of a Kerite is kind of like a laugh, a laughing stock. Like, oh, you mean those fools who think you can just follow the written word? I never even really heard of charites or met them. Um they're more like a the butt of a joke more than anything. Um but once I realized that I actually resonated with that way of thinking, um, you know, I don't haven't really adopted the label because uh the charites are just a subsection of the Jews, and they themselves have um a bunch of their own opinions and traditions that they follow, although way less um way less binding than rabbinic tradition and way less numerous. But still, um, you know, something comes along with it. I'm not claiming to be part of any group really. Um, I don't think that the Jews should be divided into all these subgroups. I think there is one Torah and all people have to follow the Torah. That observance may look somewhat different, um, but ultimately we need to be bound by the text of the written Torah. And I have found that the Jewish people, whether Orthodox or secular, have strayed very far from the instructions that are in the Torah, which is the document that actually makes us a people. Outside of the Torah, I don't think we really have a national identity that holds together in any significant way.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So Judaism academically, um, one way that has been described to me is this uh like a nation and the the Torah constitution that the act like judges or at times uh district attorneys that they would make case for us for other to either join the Jewish people or the develop into the community. Um what structure would it like if it if it was more pure form of um uh traditional Juno-Judaism, which is only on the Torah versus this concept that is developed through time as the oral Torah?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So it sounds nice in theory that there's a constitution and then there's the adjudication of the original foundational laws. Obviously, that would be necessary in the event of a country um being governed by these laws. There would have to be court cases and there would be some doubts in the law. And there's a a structure of a legal system that the Torah itself contains, where matters are brought to the laws, um, to the law enforcement. There's judges and law enforcement in every gate. Uh, that's a statement, Deuteronomy chapter 17, as well as a high court uh that the highest disputes are brought to. The the interesting thing about that high court, which is often used to justify rabbinic authority, is that the high court particularly references a court ruling from the place that God chooses. So this immediately connects the judges and their authority to how well they represent God, right? And how close they are in alignment with God's presence being among Israel. The rabbinic tradition as it exists is actually a post-temple invention. So it it actually, the the Mishnah was only codified in 200 CE, which is uh 130 years after the Second Temple was destroyed. And these uh rabbis, some of who may have been present at that time, most of which ultimately codifying it are after, they are writing their debates and opinions about Jewish law. It's not even really case law all the time. In fact, usually it's just abstract legal conversations and arguments that don't have a lot of relevancy to life at all. Sometimes it's outright immoral. Like for example, I was just reading a Mishnah in Yuma where they um discuss whether you're allowed to save the life of someone who um a building collapsed on him on the Shabbat. So it would be like work to remove the stones. And the formulation they present is if it is we have a doubt as to whether he's alive or dead, you can uncover the rocks of the building. If we have a doubt as to whether he's a Jew or a non-Jew, you can uncover the rocks of the building. So the implication being that if we knew for certainty that he was a non-Jew, you would not be able to save him from the collapsed building. Now, things like that are very common in rabbinic literature, which is why uh the Talmud increasingly has been uh exposed as an immoral book. Now, you know, are is every quote out there on the internet from the Talmud true? No, but a lot of them are. And in general, the Talmud is full of very uh destructive statements and ideas. Certainly, even if you believe that they have some helpful ideas, those ideas are not binding law. What the rabbis present is not just um an attempt to understand Torah law, but it's an attempt to institute an entirely new set of law. Um laws that are not written in the scripture whatsoever, even though the scripture says do not add or subtract to these commandments. Um, it's one thing to preserve traditions and court rulings, it's another thing to introduce entirely new ideologies and principles that are nowhere to be found in the original document, claiming that those institutions by these rabbis are as binding as the laws in the Torah that are supposedly the laws of God according to the religion. So if the religion claims that this is the word of God, you should only follow his commandments, and now all of a sudden we have to follow thousands of laws invented by rabbis, um that is a complete disconnect from the original intent of the religion. So to the extent that we're adjudicating law and trying to come to conclusions, that's one thing. But it should be noted that never in history have the rabbis actually operated as a court with authority. They have always been um uh acting under exiled conditions, under Babylonian rule, under European rule, under uh, you know, all American law, right? There's the rabbis have never even had authority. So for them to claim that all of their books are an attempt to institute Torah law, they've never even had the ability to institute Torah law. Um so what they've really done is enslaved their own community to their whims, and now people have to take seriously these books when they're not at all uh serious books.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

But let's say that there is someone who's actually trying to parcel um the Torah properly. They're not only looking at things from Moses, but they're looking at the principles like in in Abraham, the life life of Isaac and Jacob, uh even Adam and E, even more, and they're taking everything into consideration, and then they take a pronouncement. Someone comes comes to them and says, Hey, um, I want to marry one more woman, uh Abraham had a couple of mistresses and this and this and that. Uh, is it okay for me to do it? They'd be able to say, Hey, if you look at the life of Jacob, it never worked out, they hated each other, the ladies hate each other, uh, but uh, you know, stay clear of anything like that. Would that be some someone that you can go to and and get some help? Or every Jew is gonna be able to interpret on their own, just based on their own spiritual uh pursuit? Or how would you do it the bet better according to your theory?

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah, so the the Torah speaks directly to individuals over and over again. Individuals are told to know these words, to teach them to their children, to return to God, to return to God heart and soul. These are deeply personal, individualistic uh calls to knowledge, to awareness, to enforcement of the law in your own personal life. The same way that there are laws for the court, there are laws before the court, so that you never even end up in court. If you are acting in accordance with God's law, there's no reason why you should ever be standing in front of the court. The rabbis take the the excuse of a court, again, which is just a concept in this time, and they use it to enforce how people should behave from the moment they get up in the morning until the moment they go to sleep at night. And they have things that you have to say, they have blessings and prayers, and you have to go to the synagogue and you have to say this and you have to say that, and you can't look this way, and you can't talk that way, and you can't walk this way. Um, and they have a million things to somehow as if the court's job is to regulate every single minute of your waking hour. That's certainly not the intention behind the court. Now, to the extent that it's useful to have uh religious leaders and uh elders of the community and people who you can go to for mentorship and advice, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, you know, you'd be a fool as a human being to believe that you can come to all the conclusions without ever learning from other people. I mean, we all learn from other people all day, whether we like it or not. Even if we learn how not to be, we're still learning from other people's experiences, right? Um, and their advice. And so, yeah, there are people that are wise who have advice, but I would say don't just respect them because they have a title, which is unfortunately usually the nature of uh rabbinic Judaism, which is oh, this is a rabbi, therefore you must listen to him. He has um ordination from a uh yeshiva institution, therefore he now has authority. That's the issue here, is that the rabbis have not proved their authority to even be valuable or truthful, they've proved it to be manipulative and deceitful. So for that reason, I would not say that the the umbrella of rabbi has actually been a net positive for the Jews. Um, while there have been good things that rabbis have brought to the Jewish people, um, overall it's an appeal to authority more so than actually contributing value to the community. So um, you know, I myself call myself a rabbi because I function as a Jewish teacher of the Torah, which rabbi is just the going term. Um, but I I strive to rectify the the damage that the rabbis have done because I think I think they've done a lot.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

So I work as a chat as a chat and I'm mostly Christian, and and people come back.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

I'm so sorry, one second, I'm so sorry to interrupt you. I hear your uh audio breaking. I don't know if that'll come across on your end.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

But usually it doesn't. Um, so we're gonna um hopefully it worked out. So people from all different things come to me and they say, Hey, my priest's lousy, my pastor is lousy, they so much they manipulate me, they they did this, they did that. And what I tell them is that the Bible gives you a description of a good shepherd, of someone who cares for their people, someone who's compassionate, kind of like God. And they you have you have to meet the job description for you to be able to follow them as your leader. Would you say the same same thing? Do you say that it has to do with their character, then their title?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Of course. Yeah, I mean that is the the fundamental truth. I mean, you hit it on the head. That's that's exactly what's missing is people are not being judged by the content of their character, they're being judged by some title or some superficial thing that they're associated with. And you know, when God is calling us to be a holy people, uh, to be unique, to be set apart, to be righteous, there are actual requirements that come along with it. And the the consequence for not following through with those requirements is a curse, like devastating curses outlined in the Torah that are so bad. And that the Torah proceeds to say in Deuteronomy chapter 8, uh chapter 28, it says that you will see so many bad curses and and evil curses, even things that are not written in this book of the Torah. And I find that to be very ironic that the only time that the Torah references something outside of itself, it doesn't say you should follow the rabbis uh uh that's not written in this Torah. No, no, it says if you want to know what's not in this Torah, just more curses. All right. So, like that that's what exists outside of this Torah. But within the Torah itself, uh we find blessing, we find connection to God, we find purpose, we find um clarity and peace of mind. Um, not all the questions are answered. You know, the Torah doesn't talk about the afterlife, it doesn't talk about um what happened prehistorically, it doesn't talk about other realms, doesn't talk about heaven, doesn't talk about hell. It talks about this world, and it tells us that we can have heaven on earth, we can have hell on earth, we can have uh goodness, and we can have evil, and all that is a result of our actions and behaviors. And that's the highest truth. Uh, that's what's available to us in the immediate moment, and God wants us to relate to him in the immediate moment. That's the really the lesson of the Torah and all of the uh apocalyptical uh eschatological fantasies or prophecies or these things that people are kind of living for for some other place, some other time, some other life. The Torah really just destroys that worldview because it's not about that, it's about uh what we can do with the life that we have right now, and God will be the judge for eternity.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

So are the Jewish people's people supposed to find with no temple, no kingdom, and no ability to rearish that at this time.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Right. So, yeah, I mean it's definitely uh a good point. Um, I think that the temple has been placed too much on a pedestal, both by Jews and by Christians. So, see, Christians use the temple as proof that the Jews um are clowns for still following the old covenant. Um, and Jews use the temple kind of as an idol to just say that the temple signifies everything, and you know, we're just working for the temple, the temple. You know, the temple is sticks and stones, right? The temple only holds value if God's presence is resting in the temple. The problem that we have as a people is that God has forsaken us, God has cursed us. This is Deuteronomy 31. God will forsake us because we worshiped other gods. God will forsake us because we don't follow his ways. I mean, it's abundantly clear that the world is not operating in accordance with God's principles, nor are the Jewish people operating in accordance with God's principles. Some in some ways we are. There are some good things going on. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you know, but at the same time, there's high expectations. God has high expectations of us, and I don't think we're living up to it. So, um, you know, what does the Torah say about a time like this? Time such as this, a time of dispersion where there is no unified Israel, where there is no unified people, where uh we are not redeemed in the land, where we do not have God's presence among us, where we do not have uh, you know, this king, uh messiah that everyone uh relies on for everything. Um what what do you do in a time where you don't have the guidance, where you don't have the unity that people seem to want? Um and rightfully so, we we do want this unity and we do want to have uh redemption and revelation and all these things, but we're not at that point, right? We're at a point more say uh say of of darkness and despair. Um and so how are we supposed to deal with that? So I'll just read to you what it says in Deuteronomy chapter 4 uh verses 27 through 29. It says that Yahweh will spread you thin throughout the people, and you'll be left few in number among these people that God leads you over there. There you will worship gods, the work of the hands of man. So man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see, cannot hear, cannot eat or smell. So pretty much describing the human condition, right? Worshiping the works of our own hands, you know, like what we worship is man-made. Even rabbinic Judaism is a man-made form of religion which becomes worship like God. Like, for example, in rabbinic practice, uh blessings will be said, Blessed are you God who commanded us to do this, over rabbinic commandments. You know, so much of Judaism is man-made, so much of everything is man-made, and people worship the works of their own hands. Couldn't think of anything more egotistical or narcissistic than that. But what is the solution? You shall seek from there Yahweh your God, and you will find him when you seek him with all your heart and all your soul. So that's that's the the solution. The solution is seek God and you will find him, right? Seek and you shall find God um and with all your heart and with all your soul. So this is a call to, again, the individual, to recognize that being lost and dispersed and um worshiping the the the lowest things in existence is not exactly gonna make you the best person, is not placing you in the best uh scenario. So the the solution is to return to God, heart and soul. Doesn't say anything about a temple, doesn't say anything about a messiah, doesn't say anything about a rabbi, doesn't say anything about uh a sacrifice. It literally just says return to God, heart and soul. So this is a deeply personal journey of return to God. That is the situation we find ourselves in. Everyone is kind of a scattered individual across the world, and if we as individuals begin to return to God and begin to improve ourselves, that will lead to a redemption for uh the nation as a whole and for humanity as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

So are you part of camp that we open to non-Jews joining the Jewish people as um practice? Or do you think that everybody has their role and then the Jews just stay with the Jews and everybody else can do their own thing?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Right. So the idea of non-Jews joining the Jewish people is not my idea. That's the Torah's idea. The Torah openly states many, many times to accept and love the sojourner, the sojourning resident, the foreigner, stranger who lives among you, right? Differentiating the sojourner among you from the foreigner from elsewhere, uh, calling him to be part of your people, to be supported with additional um charity and love. That is what we're called to do for um non Israelites who want to live amongst Israel. Uh, we are not forbidden from marrying them. They are they are welcome in the congregation of Yahweh. They are under the Torah that says many times there is one Torah for the sojourner and for the native of the land. So absolutely, the Torah opens the door for people to join Israel. Uh Um, nowadays, when Israel is kind of just this scattered nation, it it's kind of hard to know exactly what it means to join Israel when Israel doesn't really have an established land or peoplehood. But the best that I can think of is um, you know, you place yourself under the covenant and you appeal to God and you say, Well, uh, you know, God, your people Israel is a scattered, exiled nation. Um, I'm a scattered, exiled individual. I would like to be gathered in with your people and be under the covenant, under the oath that is punishable by terrible curses for not obeying, and is uh it's possible to achieve great blessings by obeying and being part of this covenant. People can place themselves under that covenant. Not everyone will want to, and not everyone has to. Uh, you know, there still is a semblance of the concept of the nations, right? There are different nations, and it's just as valid for someone to say, I don't want to be part of Israel, I want to be part of Greece, or um, I want to be part of Persia, I want to be part of Venezuela, right? I want to be part of my people that I come from, but I want to adopt some of the concepts of the Torah. I want to learn from this revelation. I mean, that's something that's happened widespread with the majority of the world accepting the Bible. You know, that's basically people learning from the Bible, you know, and that's a fulfillment in many ways of God's name being spread across the world. So um, I don't think everyone needs to be Israel. I think we can maintain national differences, but I do think that that if someone wants to join Israel, that door is clearly open, not by me, but by the Torah. Again, it would be tricky in a time like this, but it's between you and God, ultimately, it always is. And um that's really what it takes.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

So, how do you go about keeping the commandments? Uh, you know, it's it's common for for people to make one of the commandments that if you touch a pig, you you should get killed. If you you sticks on the Sabbath, you should get killed. If you sleep with a non-Jew, you should get killed. So, how do you how do you go about, let's say that you and and your friends created unity and you catch a friend doing something that they're not supposed to? Do you shun them? Do you push them out? Do you uh give them uh a lesson and ask them to repent? How do you go about doing it for yourself and for the people that you have influenced influence of?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Of course. So I mean, first and foremost, we don't have any of this authority, you know. As I pointed out, like there is no country that is governed by the laws of the Torah. So um, you know, it's not quite relevant to say how exactly we'd go about it because we don't know because we don't have that opportunity. Um, assuming we did get that opportunity, um, and we let's say we had uh a land that was under Torah authority, um, there are varying penalties for different things. So, I mean, what you just mentioned, you get put to death for touching a pig, you get put to death for breaking Shabbat, and you get put to death for sleeping with a nonju. All of those three things are not true. Like the only one that's true is you get put to death for breaking Shabbat. That is true. But you don't get put to death for touching a pig. Definitely not. Um, there is actually no penalty for touching a pig. I mean, a live pig, totally fine. Then a the carcass of a pig is just ritually impure. So you if you touch it, you're impure, um, and you just can't eat it. So that's really the only law regarding pigs. Um, regarding sleeping with a non-Jewish woman, there is no prohibition against sleeping with a non-Jewish woman. That's a made-up law, you know. Like, just to give you the source, in Deuteronomy chapter 7, it says uh that we should not marry, intermarry with the Canaanites, who are the inhabitants of the land who God deemed worthy of death, right? So they were so evil and so steeped in sin and idolatry and immorality that God himself, uh the only time in history that we see such a thing where God dictates the genocide of a people, I mean, other than when he himself did it at the flood, um, these people are people that you shouldn't intermarry with. And so uh Jews will falsely use that as a source to say that you cannot intermarry with any other nations. Now, what they're essentially saying, though, is that all other nations are under this category of evil people to the core that need to be genocided. So I would not make that leap at all. I don't think that's what the Torah is saying. The Torah is specific about those nations because those nations were deeply immoral. Now, the point that it's making is you don't want to marry people that will lead you away from God. Um, but if you find someone from another nation who is um who has their allegiance to the same God that you do and wants to follow the Torah as you do, then it's actually appropriate to marry them, especially um if that's if there is love there and there's connection and you guys can build something great together. What binds you together is uh your love under God. And so if that exists, there is absolutely no prohibition against marrying people from other nations.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

I would like to push push back with that. Um I know there's extremists, and I know people who say anybody who's not worshiping thing the true God is in, I guess this is uh the translation would be like in the middle or some type of uh heretical person. But the idea to genocide that that I don't I don't see that other than send someone trying to apply what Joshua did to all the other people, but but you see that in common lingo in in Jewish circles. They they actually say everybody can they can do whatever they want. If you end up marrying someone who's not Jewish, uh they don't really can really consider part of the community anymore, more you are in a state of sin or something like that. But you never hear people like the anti-Semites with claim, uh, let's kill everybody and that they're gonna be in power, or or Jews are gonna be enslaved in the whole world. Maybe some circles that uh you came across, um, but and there's videos where they interview like very fringe uh people in Israel and in New York, but but this idea to condemn the whole world that that that is like apocalyptic idea brought up by Paul and other people. Uh, what have you seen that?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Right. So yeah, I'm not saying that they condemn the whole world, although you know I know there's verses in Isaiah that say that like we'll enslave the whole world, and they kind of run with that. Um, you know, I just follow the Torah, I follow what's written in the law. Um, and I'm not saying that they actually believe that the rest of the nations are condemned the way the Canaanites were. In fact, in Judaism, they will accept people from other nations just so long as they go through the sanctioned conversion process of the rabbis, right? So that just reveals the double standard here, which is okay, so then you accept that people from other nations can join you, but they have to join you on your terms, not on God's terms. And if they don't join you on your terms, then you're excommunicated from the community. And oh God, how could you marry a goi, right? But if you go through rabbinic conversion, everything's okay. Now, what does rabbinic conversion entail? Well, a couple years of being brainwashed by rabbis and accepting to follow the Torah, like before a court of rabbis. But okay, that that whole process is not mentioned in the Torah or immersion in the mikveh, which is like rabbinic baptism, which is not mentioned in the Torah. So the entire rabbinic conversion process is not Torah-based. All that the Torah says about people living amongst Israel is that they should follow the Torah and they're all under the same law. So um, I I think the point that I'm making is that not that Jews genuinely believe that the rest of the world is condemned, except for fringe groups, um, you know, which does exist, but that's not the majority of the belief. But the majority of the belief is that you're only a Jew if your mother is a Jew, which is actually not in the Torah. The Torah says uh all lineage is patriarchal for the most part, and definitely not only matriarchal. Um, and besides for that, it also just says that people can join the nation through following the law and being placed under the covenant. So um the idea of rabbinic conversion now magically turning someone into a Jew is genuinely ridiculous and not at all based on the Torah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

What about the other historical books of the Bible? Um, are those uh authoritative or helpful in any way? Anyway, is it just the first the first five books?

SPEAKER_01 30:37

So uh are they authoritative in terms of binding law? No. Are they authoritative in terms of um you know dictating prayer and and scripture and like how to interact with God in many ways? Yeah, there is a lot of beauty there. It's informative, it's historical, um, it's fascinating, but it's not the law. I think people have done themselves a disservice by lumping the whole Bible together. The Bible exists as a uh a whole, but the five books of Moses stands head and shoulders above the rest of the Bible. I don't believe that we're seeing like a progressive revelation where we're learning more. I I think maybe some ideas are being refined and some historical elements are coming out, but just to be clear, the the theme of the Torah is return. And like so the further you stray, you always have to return to the source and to the foundation. And that's really the message. Like, if you can sum up the message of the prophets, including Jesus of the New Testament, what is the message? The message is return to God, follow the commandments, don't be a bad person, be a righteous and moral person, don't be hypocritical, don't be superficial. Like this is a consistent message, and every uh principle that's brought forward in the Old Testament and in the Quran and in all like the continuity of the Abrahamic religions, if you if you distill it down to its positive constructive message, the message is to quote Jesus love God with all your heart, soul, and resources, and love your fellow as yourself. Direct quote from Leviticus 19, 18 and Deuteronomy 6.4, 65 uh 6.5, right? So like this is all a callback, right? And it's a process of return to understand that maybe we've uh strayed too far from the foundation, and maybe it's not that complex. It's actually pretty simple. And if we're wholesome and simple with God, we actually will see more progress than all of this um overcomplicating.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Speaking of um Jesus, what do you do? The original conflict, and where do you think thing things straight straight away from the Israeli label in a battery?

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Well, the the the problem is that you know it's not like the Jews, this is the Jews' uh case that they want to make is that you know when Jesus came, they were also righteous and Jewish and good, and then Jesus came and you know blew it all up. But the reality is Jesus came to a corrupt people. In fact, they were so corrupt that God destroyed the temple shortly after uh Jesus' uh sojourn on the earth, right? So um, you know, it's not like the Jews were were uh that great. In fact, they were not. Um, and they really haven't been throughout history. That's also their own self-professed history. So, to their credit, um, the Jews are very clearly willing to admit that they have failed God over and over again. I think what we're looking at with the new rabbinic movement, which is pretty much the Pharisees in the New Testament, uh, evolved into Rabbinic Judaism of today, it is a rejection of simple principles. It's a rejection of like, you know, what ultimately is uh Jesus saying, like be a good person, make sure that the inner reflects the outer, and that the outer reflects the inner, and that you are the same person on the outside as on the inside, and you don't just walk around pretending like you're holy, but then uh you're rotten and corrupt on the inside. Well, what where does it say that in the Torah? Return to God, heart and soul, circumcise your heart, right? These are all again callbacks to the original foundation. But the rabbis are like, well, how do you wash your hands? And uh, like if you heal someone on the Shabbat, it's it's breaking the Shabbat. And so, you know, I I don't believe that the entire document of the New Testament is divinely inspired or authoritative. I think it's very possible that there are false falsehoods baked in there. And I think, you know, Christianity as a religion, as it evolves, kind of thrives on undermining the Torah in a lot of ways, you know, in the same way that Rabbinic Judaism does. So I just I don't ascribe to religions that need to reject the old covenant in order to create something new. You know, I think I think the Torah is very clearly stating that we need to maintain this covenant, we need to maintain this law. And just because there are aspects that we can't fulfill doesn't mean that we shouldn't fulfill any of it. And even within Christianity, Christianity believes in the law, that's why they believe in ethics and morality. Um, but they kind of play this game where they get to choose which ones to follow, which ones not to follow. When I mean the Torah is very clear follow without adding or subtracting. So I think every biblical Abrahamic religion deviates from the faith when they begin adding and subtracting to the commandments in the five books of Moses.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

So since since you take the label charite, um, how how would you describe yourself and in in my uh Jewish institute where I did my mind? There was a guy who used to be uh uh uh Jew for Jesus and then he became and there was no was no institutions for him to receive higher learning, he had to come to ours. So where do you where do you gather where do you build community and where do you create this new and perspective to the greater world or world? How do you build build a community based on these principles?

SPEAKER_01 36:33

What is your institution?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Uh Spurden Chicago. It's um an eclectic that they have people from all different backgrounds, but it's academic.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Mm-hmm. Right. So yeah, I mean the the academic higher learning is just studying the five books of Moses, you know, like it's it's not, as I said, it's not that complex. I mean, I didn't say that it says that in Deuteronomy 30. It's not beyond you, it's not across the sea, it's not in the heavens, it's in your mouth and in your heart. Again, a call back to the internal revelation that is within every single individual that God is calling to each and every one of us to connect with him. Um, you know, not about the title, not about the higher education, it's about the inner education and the personal fulfillment of the law, right? Um, Jesus said nothing shall pass from the law until it's fulfilled. So Christians interpreted that that he fulfilled it, right? Alternatively, he fulfilled it, you should fulfill it, we all should fulfill it. That's the whole idea that through fulfilling the law, we will be wise, we'll be understanding, we'll be connected to life, and we will all be fulfilled. There is there's nothing that implies that the Torah is outdated or that we shouldn't be following it. It continues to be the mainstay of education. Um, it puts higher education to shame. Uh, all of the enlightened liberal values of this modern day have clearly failed in a spectacular fashion. Um, I mean, we're looking at a world that's lost and confused and fooled over and over again by people claiming to be uh rational and reasonable and rejecting the primitive nature of the Bible. But the Bible is the only book that actually speaks truth and doesn't even tell us that much, but it tells us what we need to know.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

You know, guy that uh um uh I know you know you've debated Ashramesa and and then been on on um Nahmyagore Gordon um program. Um when you connect with neck with these other groups, uh do you feel there's an opportunity to educate, educate, or are you building coalition with these individuals who are kind of controversial and picking fights with different groups?

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Well, yeah, it's a combination of all, right? You know, you want to build alliances, you want to uh shake things up a little bit. Um, you know, we have productive conversations. I think obviously I have more agreements with Nahemia than with Ashurmeza, uh, although Ashurmeza has done his best to diminish the rabbinic constitution or the rabbinic um you know vast array of books down as much as he could. I still think that it's too much. Anything is too much if it's if it's not the Torah. Um but you know, Nahemiah is someone who really was the only person doing what he's doing, just a Jew who believes in the Torah and follows the Bible as it's written. Um, you know, he's not like affiliated with the Karaite community so much because that's more of like a niche community in Israel. But as an American who just interacts with all different people from all different faiths, uh I just label myself as Torah observant uh because that's really what it's about.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

There are things that are that are kind of uh out there, which is creating your own calendar, uh pronouncing the name of God of God, developing uh ties with some antagonic groups, such as the Hebrew Christianist, not all of all of them, some of them, or or people who are very antagonistic against all Jews and they try like on the on the rabbis. Uh how do you navigate that because it can get kind of messy and it can get kind of uh um antagonistic and hateful at certain points?

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Yeah, no, it it certainly can get antagonistic. And while I understand that probably Orthodox Jews and view me as an antagonizer, I don't try to be um negative in in an unhelpful way. As in you know, the verse before do love your fellow as yourself, Leviticus 19, 18, Leviticus 19, 17 says, Do not hate your brother in your heart, you shall surely rebuke your fellow and not bear sin because of him. Right? Like if you're not going to rebuke your fellow, you don't actually love them, and you're just harboring hatred in your heart. So the idea of being non-confrontational and not uh stirring the pot is really um it's a careless, callous way of being. It's kind of this fake niceness that's again superficial but not real. Um, the reality that we're looking for in um communion with God and communion with our fellow man is to get to the truth, you know, and so we have to be honest, we have to speak truthfully, we have to say what we believe, we have to be willing to stand up for our beliefs and be ready to be wrong. Um, you know, so I think as you said, there's a lot to navigate, right? Um how do we institute certain things? How do we have unity? How do we deal with people that are uh in bad faith altogether? Uh there is definitely a lot to cover there, but because we are in the situation we're in, in a state of dispersion as a people, not united uh ceremonially, I don't think uh it's so important to all be wearing the same black boxes on our head and uh you know keep the holiday on the exact same day. I think what's more important is that we're united ethically and that we have shared values above all. Um and and if we could unite around that, I think we can come to terms on the smaller details much easily.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Uh history, uh, doesn't it say in the ball that um he blends those that he that he loves? So so do you see it as some sort of uh uh HNO in um type of um trying to steer the Jewish people in the right the right direction? Or or like the Queen of the Muslim was that God is God is with us and that we're we're disgustable and then we'll never gonna change and that we're just gonna growing the earth and in uh cycles and till you know the end be because he's hard hard-headed and and never becoming coming around.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yeah. Um I don't believe in replacement theology. I don't think that the covenant goes away. You could see in Leviticus uh 26, 44, 45, where God says explicitly he will recall the covenant of the first ones and he will not reject. Israel completely and be disgusted by them, even when they're exiled, even when they're living under sin. So God obviously always uh loves his children um no matter what's going on, but there's there's many aspects here to tackle because we're dealing with a God who is jealous, who is angry, who is a God who brings justice to people for doing the wrong thing. You know, it's not a casual thing where we can all just um play happy, happy with God. You know, in fact, speaking of being happy, you can see Deuteronomy 28, 63, where God says, just as he was happy and rejoiced to do good to us when we did good, he will rejoice to destroy us when we do evil, right? So God is saying, I will I will be just happy to destroy you for being evil. Um, yeah, I'm not saying every single Jew has been bad. Obviously, that sounds uh vitriolic and it's not even true. There's always a remnant of people that are good, but it's always a minority, and that's unfortunate. It's been the case almost since day one. Take Noah as the extreme minority from an entire generation, take Abraham as the minority, take the fact that the Bible is following fundamentally the journey of individuals, and the nations are kind of like crashing and burning all around. So there are righteous individuals, um, but it is few and far between. That's why the Torah cautions us in Exodus 23:2 to not follow the majority for evil, but to follow God, right? Because the majority does not dictate truth, God dictates truth, and even if most people are doing the wrong thing, it doesn't make it right. Um, so we have to be very uh very cautious with with all of these things. Um, yeah, it's not about being hyperbolic, but we have to kind of uh balance these things as you pointed out. There there is an element of uh God tests the ones he loves and God punishes the ones he hates, right? So it's like how do you know if it's a punishment or a test? Well, we don't know exactly, that's up to God to know, but we can speculate that if someone is righteous and he's going through difficulties, that's a test. But if someone is wicked and he's going through difficulties, that's a punishment. It would seem that's at least a way to conceptualize it. So if we can see uh patterns within the Jewish people's behavior, again, self-professed. So it's to our credit, we air our dirty laundry in public. We're not trying to hide the fact, like read the Old Testament, it's all about the failures of Israel. Um so you know, when you can point to things that Israel's doing wrong, like genuine violations of the law on multiple levels, um, I think we can only conclude that that is a fulfillment of the curses that were promised for not following God. And to the extent that there are a lot of blessings that Jews experience, because there are that as well, um, that's also a fulfillment of the blessings and the favor that God put on Israel.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Um when we're down to the support of the statehood of Israel, Israel, groups that don't. Um, have you seen the trend groups that don't usually make uh strange bedfellows with with people who actually hate Jews or want to destroy all the Jews because they're all in the same place? Uh, how do you feel about the Naturi Kata and other group of groups that they start with good premise? You know, we're on the land until the Messiah gives it to us, or when whenever you know, you know, what's that? And then they start hanging out with with um the Iranian leadership, or they start uh prototyping to the point of uh uh hanging with Islamic extremists or secular extremists. Uh how would you describe your view on Israel when Israel and the other groups that have tried to find them Islam?

SPEAKER_01 48:04

All right. So yeah, I don't I don't think Natura Carta's biggest problem is that they're anti-Zionists. I think their biggest problem is that they're ultra-orthodox Hasidic extremists. As in, first of all, who says you can't go back to Israel until the Messiah comes? That's not in the Torah. The Torah doesn't say that you can't go back to Israel. You can. Um, you can try to conquer the land fairly and justly and be moral about it. Um, however, uh it has to be a land governed by the Torah. So that's really the issue here is uh is the Zionist project a moral and righteous project? Like, like take, for example, I don't know if you're familiar, this is kind of a small historical point that doesn't get discussed a lot, but the the Zionist state brought in the Yemenite Jews from Yemen. Um, and the Yemenite Jews were so kind of innocent that they had this tradition that um, you know, they're gonna come flying to Israel on the wings of eagles, right? And so then the airplane came to them and they're like, oh, this is the eagle, right? And then they show up in Israel and it started snowing. And because they're from like the desert areas, they've never seen snow, they're like, Oh, it's the manna, right? Um, so kind of just very innocent people, mostly religious for a long time. It's there since the first temple era. And there are some really dark stories there because the Zionist leaders basically locked them up in camps, put them in tents, and then they stole their babies from them. So when the Yemenite woman would give birth, they would take the baby and say, Oh, I'm sort of sorry, it died. And then they'd go sell the baby, like to rich people who want to adopt babies or something like that. Like, this is just like a casual anecdote, historical anecdote from the founding of the state of Israel. And I know people personally who lost their brother. Like this guy lost his brother from this campaign, and he still to this day has never seen his older brother. So, I mean, why am I saying this? Just to point out that the Zionist campaign was never a Torah-oriented campaign. It was never about uh God, it was never about restoring the Torah to the land and being moral and righteous, it was about a uh it was a Jewish project, right? And and you know, when the same way you can turn the temple into an idol, you can turn the Jewish identity into an idol into an idol. The only reason why the Jewish identity has any significance is because God gave it significance. So for people to embark on a on a an attempt to recreate the state of Israel in the land of Israel and to completely deny uh God and his law in the process, I think that's a really concerning thing to be doing. Now, when a Naturakarta Satmar Hasidic man tells you that the Torah needs to be the law of the land, he means Hasidic, rabbinic, ultra-orthodox, Talmudic Judaism as the law of the land. And I guarantee you that would not look much better than um secular law. So yeah, I definitely don't think that Israel being a religious state should look like a rabbinic state. And unfortunately, that kind of seems to be the alternative, which is that if Israel wasn't a secular state, it would probably be an orthodox state, an ultra-orthodox Jewish state, which would not look good either. So uh yeah, that's why it really is a callback to the Torah itself. Um, you know, of course, the Jews would not be able to conquer Israel if God didn't let them. So God is involved in everything, um, good and bad in history. But I think the fact that he gave the Jews this opportunity uh for the first time in 2,000 years means they should not squander the opportunity. Um, and unfortunately, I see behaviors like the rejection of God, like the the carelessness surrounding the Torah, um, like this kind of entitled attitude that I'm getting. Um, I just don't know if it's helpful or wise for the future of Israel. Um, even from their perspective, where they are the victim. Um, and I'm not saying it's wrong because they're literally surrounded by tons and tons of Arab nations who want them gone. Um, practically speaking, what are they going to do to make that better? You know, first and foremost, they need God's protection. You know, they don't need the U.S.'s protection, they need God's protection. And you only get God's protection when you follow his laws. I mean, that's what the Torah says. Like, if you don't follow God's laws, you'll be lost from the land. If you do follow God's laws, your enemies will run away from you in seven different directions. But if you don't follow God's laws, you will run away from your enemies in seven different directions. So my advice to um the people in Israel would be to return to God and follow the Torah and not that does not mean return to rabbinic Judaism and follow the Talmud. Um, it means return to God and follow the five books of Moses, uh, the written Torah. Um, you know, I myself don't live in Israel, so it's not really for me to uh give my utmost opinion on it. Um, you know, but these people are that is their land, they're fighting for their lives, you know. It's a it's a tough situation for sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Anybody uh were uh brought up that you're you you're God are very little and that when you're dealing with ancient religions or ancient that there needs to be a wiggle room to be able to apply it to the man. Uh you think God being jealous, God being angry, a lot of uh atheists like that would say that say that you're God in your own image and that God needs to be seen as um like even though even though described in human terms, they said possibly could be uh the way the way that people like saw it or or uh gather the information that uh if you see through all the all the different religions when whenever a deity is that's depicted like that, it's it's based on fear, it's based on uh people having issues with the elements. Uh is there any philosophical way to to extend our view of God this ever worked for you or that you're open open to?

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Well, I always like being lectured on God by atheists, you know. I don't I don't think they're very uh authoritative on on how to understand God. Now, uh, yeah, I mean, uh are people uh afraid? Yes, should they be afraid? Yes. Are the are the elements dangerous? Oh yeah, and that's just the least of the danger that exists in reality. So having fear of God is actually the only logical thing to do because otherwise you're gonna be afraid of disease and storms and hurricanes and monsters and demons and whatever you know, people's minds are operated by um genuine threats. The the at the top of that threat list is God. God can destroy everyone and everything if he wants to. And okay, God being jealous is not a primitive emotion. Jealousy shows that you care. If you're jealous when your spouse talks to someone else or flirts with someone else, are you crazy and stupid and primitive? Or uh does it just mean that you really care about that relationship? God really cares about his relationship with us. It should be pretty flattering to us that God cares enough about us to be jealous about how we behave. He says, You you're uh flirting with other gods, I'm jealous. Why does he care? Because he cares about us and he cares about our relationship and he wants that closeness with us, he wants all of us to be uh in unity with him. Now, if we're created in the image of God, it makes sense that the uh ways in which we experience reality are a microcosm of the infinite, the infinity of God. You know, of course, God is far beyond our comprehension. You can see Deuteronomy chapter 4, Moses' lectures, the Israelite says, Beware for your soul, because you did not see any form or image on Mount Sinai when God talked to you from the midst of the fire. Like remember, you'll be seeing visions, you'll be seeing the bur the bush, the burning bush, the cloud, the angel. You know, they they there's even a thing in Exodus where they see, like they behold the God of Israel and they see his feet on sapphire brickwork, right? But these are all visions, these are all glimpses of a picture that is impossible for the human mind to comprehend. That's abundantly clear in the Torah. That's that's why there's there's laws against uh idols, right? Like you cannot build God with your own hands, represent him in an image, and then say, Oh, look, that's God. You know, that's like the ultimate blasphemy because God is beyond everything. Moses cannot see God's face and live. And that's a man who was talking directly to God. So uh it's very clear when when reading the Torah, you walk away with an understanding that while God, uh while we are in the image of God, which means fundamentally we can understand aspects of God because we are in his image, and we can relate to him on emotional terms, on intellectual terms, on um literal experiential um terms, where we go through life and we can experience God in multiple different ways. Uh, we as human beings could never comprehend the totality and the fullness, the face of God, if you will, the face-to-face encounter, the ultimate awareness and understanding and encounter with God is impossible for the human to conceive of, and we would literally just die if we encountered God on that level. So, yeah, it's important to know that we we should be happy that we get to have that closeness with God and understanding of God, but we should never be too presumptuous in our definitions and our understandings of God, because then uh it turns into uh idolatry, you know, and it turns into this um very confined, limited uh definition of God as if it's up to us to define the the undefinable, the the infinite. I mean it's it's kind of stupid. You're muted. You're muted, you're muted by the way.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Sorry, we want to thank you for your time. We wanna um um really appreciate you you um sharing your perspective and getting uh us um closer to um this uh unique phenomenon within the Juni, which which is so uh the carrot of the uh uh as it was well developed um you know in early medieval time. Um I'm sure the persecution and uh uh there were disabilities in in astigmates, but um that it's reassured uh resurging and that is it's available now for people to explore. So um um a website or an Instagram um um way to get a hold of your materials.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Absolutely. Uh website israelhorowitz.com. I'm on all the social medias, Israel Horowitz. Um yeah, check it up, uh join the conversation, agree or disagree, but yeah, I agree. It's it's encouraging to see that we can have these conversations openly, and that uh the freedom of speech afforded to us uh is it's paying off because we get to have open conversation and um hopefully it brings us closer to the oneness of God.

unknown 59:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

All right, shalom.